Finish advice please

[capt jake]

OK, I am nearing the point of applying a clear (or amber) top cot to the interior of my project. ALL bright (Iknow, I am a glutton for punishment)!

It is all epoxy sealed and nearly all sanded (let me tell you, that is a royal PIMA). I have been going back and forth on products and application methods. I am condiering Nyalic or Varnish.

Varnish:
Pros: Nice amber color, relatively inexpensive

Cons: Going to be very hard to apply with a brush, considering all of the nocks and crannies. Very long 'open' time, leading to dust attraction.

Nayalic:
Pros: Dries ultra fast (10-20 minutes), can be applies with a roller (and self levels, so they tell me), multiple coats in short order. Great coverage (350 sq/ft/qt)

Cons: Very expensive ($210/gallon), crystal clear (no amber look). I am also wondering just how well it will look being as it dries to meer micons and it applied very thin.

I read here once about somebody applying varnish with a small spray gun (touch up or air brush, I can't remember). The person also stated that the addition af a small amount of Japan Dryer (what is a small amount?) sped up the dry time to eliminate dust and allow for several coats in a day.

Anybody have some helpful advice?

Some out of date pictures, but you will get the idea (I need to dust off the camera).

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid216/p554d6aa84690f49977d7bb096277714c/ecb0c38f.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid222/p392e621915d8f1472b0c0679e222aaff/eb2c14cd.jpg

[capt jake]

Thanks Jim, that is the direction I am leaning recently also. Only reason for a 'relatively' fast sure is the ability to apply the multiple coats in just a few days.

I have had very mixed luck with varnish in the past, mainly on large flat areas (like the deck). Would Penetrol help me out in those locations?
Another question; many of theh brands state that the previous coat of varnish must be sanded prior to re-application. Is that absoluely necessary? I wouldn't have a problem in sanding the outside deck and so forth, but I would REALLY like to avoid sanding the inside between coats. ;) That is a buggar of a job. ;)

[Bruce Hooke]

Given the area you are talking about, I would not worry too much about being able to apply multiple coats in one day. I'd guess that by the time you get one coat on you'll have done about as much varnishing as one person can do in a day...

[Paul Girouard]

Jake you could try Daly's sea fin aqua spar a water borne varnish .


http://www.dalyspaint.com/images/prod_aquaspar.jpg

Product disc:

SeaFin Super Spar Varnish with UVA [Specs (http://www.dalyspaint.com/PDF/specs/S-SSuperSpar.pdf)] [MSDS (http://www.dalyspaint.com/PDF/msds/M-SSuperSpar.pdf)] http://www.dalyspaint.com/images/prod_superspar.jpg

High gloss marine finish that forms a durable, yet flexible protective top coat. Very resistant to weathering, To be used in all applications calling for an exterior spar varnish. It is compatible with surfaces that have been first coated with Daly's SeaFin Filler Stain or Daly's SeaFin Ship'n Shore Sealer, as well as Daly's Wood Stain.


Buy this product online >> (http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4572814P2849526-SeaFin-Marine-Products/Super-Spar-Varnish.aspx)
Key Benefits

Interior/Exterior
High gloss finish
Boats, patio furniture and doors
Excellent protection from weathering

http://www.dalyspaint.com/images/bullet.gifAquaSpar, gloss and satin [Specs (http://www.dalyspaint.com/PDF/specs/S-SAquaSpar.pdf)] [Satin MSDS (http://www.dalyspaint.com/PDF/msds/M-SAquaSparSatin.pdf) | Gloss MSDS (http://www.dalyspaint.com/PDF/msds/M-SAquaSparGloss.pdf)] http://www.dalyspaint.com/images/prod_aquaspar.jpg

Waterborne polyurethane spar varnish, designed for marine applications. Offers excellent protection from sun, salt air and water. Ideal for most wood surfaces, and can be applied over Daly's Wood Stain, Daly's Benite and Daly's Paste Wood Filler.





http://www.dalyspaint.com/catalog_seafin.html
I used it on these draw box's so that the color on Euro ply.

http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b299/PEG688/Nov192.jpg

It goes on nicely with roll and tip method, or it can just be brushed out.

I've never used it outdoors , but it does say it is for spars and such.

I would think what ever you use you will HAVE to sand between coats , all theses products will raise the grain / pick up dust from the air / surroundings . And unless you want a non skid like finish that "hair" will need to be knocked down and tac clothed up between coats.

So it's MO that's the main reason to sand , to knock that stuff down, not so much for adhesion for the next coat.

So that's my two bits, YMMV . And other will say "I'd never use that stuff , to new , not traditional , bla bla bla. "

But with that train of thought we'd still be driving Ox carts on wooden spoked , iron wheels. ;) :rolleyes: :D

G/L what ever you use Jake.

Paul

[Stu Fyfe]

Waterlox
https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/images/Categories/Thumb/MarineSealer%20seafoam1%20901.jpg (https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/Catalog/ProductDetail.aspx?ct=28)Waterlox Original Marine Finish (https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/Catalog/ProductDetail.aspx?ct=27)
https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/images/Categories/Thumb/marine1.jpg (https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/Catalog/ProductDetail.aspx?ct=27)Waterlox Original Marine Sealer (https://www.waterlox.com/desktopmodules/fathomecom/Catalog/ProductDetail.aspx?ct=28)

I've had good luck with this stuff. No sanding needed between coats.
High build-up.

[capt jake]

Oh boy, more choices! :eek: I have epoxy sealed EVERYTHING inside, thus there won't be any raising of the grain (already done). I have no problem in sanding the outside between coats. ;)

OK, off to check out Daly's and Waterlox.
OK, Seafin Aquaspar; is it crystal clear or does it have the 'amber' hue to it (which I want)?

[Wild Wassa]

Just recently I used a oil/poly blend paint (Norglass Weatherfast, a turps clean up) and addded Penetrol. Penetrol is still a super product. It allowed these sorts of paints to be usable in heat close to 40C. It looks as good as a spray job.

Aquacote is as good as it gets in a 2 pack waterbased clear I think. It is available in the US. When I'm painting complex bits, that are slow to paint, with many nooks and crannies and I want to extend the wet edge to a minute (from just the several seconds that is gives normally), I add Floetrol ... Floetrol Flood is Penetrol Flood's little sister.

I tint clear water based paint with acrylic tints, and oil based materials with oil based tints. This extends the options a goodly amount.

Warren.

[capt jake]

What's the difference between Floetrol and Penetrol?

Just found it, one is for oil based, while the other is for latex.

[Paul Girouard]

.
OK, Seafin Aquaspar; is it crystal clear or does it have the 'amber' hue to it (which I want)?

It has a amber hue, like the draw photo , straight outta the can. I have no idea what it would do over that epoxy you have down. The link I posted MIGHT have a phone # you could call to talk to a rep. , not sure of that either.

G/L Paul

[katiedobe]

For the interior that will not see the sunshine you can look into a cabinetmaker's finish that I use for interior cabinets, bar tops, restaurant tables and my bamboo ply kitchen countertop. It dries fast, sprays well, does not need to be sanded between coats. But it is extremely flamable, and you need to use a respirator. You cannot brush it fast enough.
It is called Conversion Varnish, or catalyzed polyurathane. Builds fast, but after 24 hours you cannot coat it again without some serious sanding. You can recoat every 30 minutes during the first 24 hours though. But after that it has "cured".
wont' work for exterior though. The outside I would use Epiphanes varnish.

[capt jake]

Well, the inside is kind of misleading, as it will be exposed to the sun. Just a 51 year old runabout. ;)

Yes, Paul, there is a number. I will check that out as well as several others I have stumbled upon.

[capt jake]

What is with some of the varnishes saying they can be applied with a roller? Are they intending to say roll and tip? Daly's Aquaspar is one, Rodda's spar varnish also says roller.

[Paul Girouard]

What is with some of the varnishes saying they can be applied with a roller? Are they intending to say roll and tip? Daly's Aquaspar is one, Rodda's spar varnish also says roller.

The way I put it on I'd say is the boat builder tip and roll , roll it out / spread it out, then brush it in to flow out the air bubbles that the roller leaves .

I'm not sure thats Tip and roll , but that's as close as I can figger it.

Most varnish true varnish I've used was to thick to roll out , but still wanted to run:rolleyes: took days to fully dry and was to glossy for my tastes.

[capt jake]

I'de say that's roll and tip. ;) Going to take a look at Rodda's varnish also; local and relatively inexpensive.

I must have used the thicker stuff also, what ou describe is the problem I was having.

[capt jake]

I am really starting to hit a wall on this project. ;) Tired, sore, and tired (did I already say that?). Just went to the glass shop...another $200. Seems that everything I need is $200!
Up side is that all of the sanding is done! Floors are made and the 3rd coat of epoxy (or is it 4) is curing. I was going to apply a rubber matt, but can't seem to find anything. I guess I will paint them off white and sprinkle non-skid on them.
Next week I will clean and clean some more in the shop. Then build a 'tent' to keep dust off while I slather on way too much varnish. Then I can start re-assembly, nop, I have to install the seats and bung all fo the 55 screw holes! Dang! Then finish the tops of the seats off, 'then' re-assemble. ;)

I hope to be done in April, in time to attend the local Wooden Boat Festival!

[capt jake]

OK, I have ben remiss on pics. ;)

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p682327adf45e3f0869092e10c207efdf/eab6a4e9.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p09f48cbeae8a461a47a93cbee160dd13/eab6a4e3.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p722fd0b012f8e3987826f23c1478c221/eab6a4de.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pdee20a501aa54c46b7ecbc4b0f059b0e/eab6a4d6.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pe57d98a899ec47d5c8d9f3bceb985fe2/eab6a4d4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p33d1f5ff8cedab3af2844db51e5067ae/eab6a4cb.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p18f0b451272be2b0804d5fdaf8edd4a3/eab6a4c9.jpg

[Paul Girouard]

Lookin good Jake :cool: Keep up the fine work :) The hull looks nice and fair from what I can see!

[capt jake]

The hull did turn out real fair. I was pleased with it, though not so much on my paint job. ;)
The deck is the thing I am really proud of. I cut very shallow kerfs in the Mahogany ply and filled it with epoxy thickened with white microballons. It was easy , but looks pretty durned good, IMHO.

Just got done with the soles (or is it floors? the removable inserts to walk upon). Painted with the same white and non-skid as I had about a 1/2 gallon left over anyway. ;)

[David Roberts]

If it's all epoxy sealed, the most (that's THE MOST) important thing you can do is try a small amount of the proposed finish on top of the epoxy to see if it cures. Not all uncatalyzed finishes will cure on top of epoxy. The amines (you can't get rid of them all) somehow mess with the dryers which some finishes incorporate.

IIRC, Captain's Varnish and Epifanes both cure on epoxy. But don't take my word for it.

Also, since the most important thing the clear finish will be doing is to protect the epoxy from UV, make sure your choice has a great UV shield. Also think about it for a minute or two. Once the varnish degrades, the epoxy will degrade, too, which means it will change color. You will never be able to get it all the same color again. So keep up your varnish.

[capt jake]

Not all uncatalyzed finishes will cure on top of epoxy. The amines (you can't get rid of them all) somehow mess with the dryers which some finishes incorporate.

Eeeww, hadn't considered that one. I haven't had a problem yet, knock on wood. ;) I ended up with a polyurethane modified varnish. I sprayed the under sides of the seats today and all seems to be curing fine. Looks like many coats in order.

[Lew Barrett]

Wow Jake, she looks great! Varnish her. Roll and tip is easy to learn, easy to do and results are super. I'd never argue with Warren, but I have a thing about water born finishes; they don't work for me as well as a good long oil varnish. By the time you get to the sixth or seventh coat, you'll be an expert.

[capt jake]

Thanks Lew. :) Already committed to this product. I will try it for several coats and they take another look. I can always change plans again and go with varnish at that point. (I hope to be done by then). ;)

Got one full coat on the boat this morning. It wonly took about 2 hours. Looks good, but I can tell that there are at least 5 more, probably 6 more coats in my future. Now to find a better way to light the are while I spray.

[lesharo]

Im curious as to what you've done and what kind of job you're doing. Is it a maintenance job or is it a kind of partial strip down job? You seem to have some different colors showing from more and less varnish left on the wood ( or even stain).
Looks like a really neat boat. On "rolling and tipping": People talk about it like it's the be all and end all and will almost automatiaclly give you a great job. Well that's the futherest thing from the truth. What it does is allow you to paint quicker, cover more space in a shorter time, and hopefully to keep a wet edge which is the most important thing. Unfotunately what it also does is: make things more complicated and even more difficult especially for one person.
Now in addtition to a brush and pot; you have a roller and container to take care of and drag around and to get in the way. You also have to be careful to blend your laps which often are not easy to do. Just as when brushing. It's just not a magic solution especially for someone who is not experienced.
Oh yea. And the "technique" is also routinely used in house and commercial painting as well. Only there it doesn't carry the same "panache" and lofty sense of importance that it carries in boat painting.

[capt jake]

Im curious as to what you've done and what kind of job you're doing. Is it a maintenance job or is it a kind of partial strip down job? You seem to have some different colors showing from more and less varnish left on the wood ( or even stain).

It is a re-build. I was able to repair a good percentage of the original, while some was replaced. I stripped averything down and sealed with epoxy (as well as re-fastening and sealing a few joints with thickened epoxy).

I think the color difference you are seeing is the Fir hull against, teh Mahogany frames and trim. New as I can match, it was Phillipine Mahogany (now Meranti). The deck is new, the window frames were re-assembled and re-installed (they litterally fell apart at all of the original joints).

That forward bulkhead is a replacement of a previous 'up-grade'. I replaced with with Okume, though in retrospect, I should have used Meranti there as well. All of the seating (yet to be installed) is Meranti. The seating is very much like a picnic bench in layout and appearance. The seating was original and I could find no evidence of haveing ever had cushions (though I ma going to do that at a later time). I will install teh seating after all of the bright work is fnished (which should be Monday). I only have about 55 bungs to install and sand flat. ;)

Hope that answered your question(s). Thanks for the interest. :)

[Lew Barrett]

(snip) On "rolling and tipping": People talk about it like it's the be all and end all and will almost automatiaclly give you a great job. Well that's the futherest thing from the truth......... (snip) Oh yea. And the "technique" is also routinely used in house and commercial painting as well. Only there it doesn't carry the same "panache" and lofty sense of importance that it carries in boat painting.

Useful technique, especially for large area coverage by one man, and widely used. Of course it takes practice; all boat and woodwork does. I am a practical boat restorer and eschew fluff. I normally reserve criticism above the bilge but your comment smacks of attitude rather than dispelling it.

[pcford]

Im curious as to what you've done and what kind of job you're doing. Is it a maintenance job or is it a kind of partial strip down job? You seem to have some different colors showing from more and less varnish left on the wood ( or even stain).
Looks like a really neat boat. On "rolling and tipping": People talk about it like it's the be all and end all and will almost automatiaclly give you a great job. Well that's the futherest thing from the truth. What it does is allow you to paint quicker, cover more space in a shorter time, and hopefully to keep a wet edge which is the most important thing. Unfotunately what it also does is: make things more complicated and even more difficult especially for one person.
Now in addtition to a brush and pot; you have a roller and container to take care of and drag around and to get in the way. You also have to be careful to blend your laps which often are not easy to do. Just as when brushing. It's just not a magic solution especially for someone who is not experienced.
Oh yea. And the "technique" is also routinely used in house and commercial painting as well. Only there it doesn't carry the same "panache" and lofty sense of importance that it carries in boat painting.

The above is just plain silly. Sorry.

Most professional brush painters i know use "roll and tip." They are not interested in making their lives more complicated or garnering "panache." It yields a superior finish quickly.

[capt jake]

BTW, I ended up rolling and tipping the seat tops and was totally impressed with this procts ability to self level. With the slight bit of orange peel I have on the deck, I may sand it and roll and tip that, but it is not that bad, so I will contemplate for a bit. ;)

Nothing to do but watch the paint dry...
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p1104f65730c93940fe1d73b1d9efe070/ea8d52d5.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p1014af5c0b93ea6caa9b950e1456301d/ea8d52d4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p082ce8e78d962668430c7e885603574a/ea8d52cd.jpg
This one is deceiving, the color of the wood is the same.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p35f4019e1014678cb4ecb6969fdb160f/ea8d52c9.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/p8fc00744220d847682ba50261d11a5e0/ea8d52c4.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pf00ad592fc9ce13b5e9c5e47abf7e402/ea8d52be.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid224/pb92731e730018ebb99ffc2cc8253ac23/ea8d52ba.jpg

[mariner2k]

She's a real head turner...

[Jay Greer]

I guess that having been in the business prior to the time that all of the new miracle products hit the market, I am somewhat amazed by how the newer products seem to make what, we older pros, consider to be the easiest way to go more complicated! Stain was either pigmented or clear oil based. Varnish was either cheap or expensive and cheap didn't last more than a few months. Paint could be put on to bare wood and built up with a few coats. This avoided blistering and flaking. Of course, we used a thin coat of red lead as a primer to kill fungus and moisture intrusion. It always worked!
JG

[capt jake]

I guess that having been in the business prior to the time that all of the new miracle products hit the market, I am somewhat amazed by how the newer products seem to make what, we older pros, consider to be the easiest way to go more complicated! Stain was either pigmented or clear oil based. Varnish was either cheap or expensive and cheap didn't last more than a few months. Paint could be put on to bare wood and built up with a few coats. This avoided blistering and flaking. Of course, we used a thin coat of red lead as a primer to kill fungus and moisture intrusion. It always worked!
JG

Jay, I am not understanding you point in relation to this.

[Jay Greer]

According to the first posting. You asked about the merits of clear coatings or varnish and their application. My reply is, that although there are many synthetic materials available on the market, I have tried them all and still like traditional varnish and paints due to their ease of application and predictability of aging. So far as application is concerned, I often resort to Jap dryer in cold climates. I do hot coat when I am able to. And I do use the very best natural bristle brushes I can lay my paws on.
My most prized set of varnish brushes were made by The Linzer Co.
They are made of Russian Boar Bristle and are some 45 years old. I take insanely good care of them as they are no longer available at any price!
JG

[capt jake]

OK, I got it now :) Thanks. :) I have to admit that I prefer th look of varnish over poly, with the trade off being that the poly may hopefully last a bit longer. ;)

[Paul Girouard]

Looks great Jake and quick as well, what have yo had that boat now 6 or 7 months ?? Nice job:)

[capt jake]

Looks great Jake and quick as well, what have yo had that boat now 6 or 7 months ?? Nice job:)

6 and starting the 7th month. :) ;)

[capt jake]

I just received a quart of Nyalic. I am going to check compatibility later this weekend. I am planning on coating all of the brightwork (well, the majority anyway) with it. I figure, if it works as claimed, it would add more longevity to the finish. I may coat the painted areas as well.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Looks great... that's a great boat period. :)

[Mike Vogdes]

Very nice... She will certainly turn heads when your done.

When you cut the kerfs in the mohagany ply and filled with microbaloons and epoxy, did you tint the micro / epoxy mixture?

[capt jake]

Very nice... She will certainly turn heads when your done.

When you cut the kerfs in the mohagany ply and filled with microbaloons and epoxy, did you tint the micro / epoxy mixture?
Nope, I got ahold of white microballoons.

[pipefitter]

That does look nice.Especially in retrospect to the pictures of the boat when you brought it home.

[capt jake]

Nyalic is compatible with the prior finish, so I applied to to the bright and painted work today. There is a bit of a learning curve with it as it is 'really' easy to get too much on and have it sag. The sags come right out by going over it with a wet foam brush and letting it set for a few seconds.

Impressive to the point taht the areas that were left slightly dull from overspray are now very shiny. The down side it, I am able to spot a few flaws that I couldn't see before!

I set off to do some yard work and came back to the shop after about 1-2 hours and saw my dismal Geo Metro sitting there in the driveway (I had already washed it). All faded and pathetic. I grabbed the roam roller and foam brush out of the garbage and rolled some on th car, just for grins. :) I was totally amazed wi thth eresults. That car hasn't shined in over 8 years! My wife asked how much time I had spent waxing it. I went over the whole car in about 20 minutes. It glows, though it could use another coat to even out the gloss.

I think I am good on the boat, though the topsides will probably get one more coat to also even it out a bit.

This stuff blends into itself quite well. It is surprising as it would appear after it is applied that it will never flatten out. There was a hair that had fallen (one of the few I 'had' left) into th deck. I picked it out and flowed a bit of the Nyalic on the offended area. After about 20 minutes to an hour, there is no trace that the spot was ever touched!

Editted:
OK, I am not so impresed on the second coat. I followed the instrustion, but maybe it would have gone on better after a day or two of drying. It seemed to lift the previous coat and didn't lay as flat. Drat!

[Lew Barrett]

Wow Jake! You really turned that boat around! Not only that, but the interior layout looks really practical as well. Talk about turning a sow's ear into a silk purse!

[capt jake]

Thanks for the kind comments. I can only hope it looks as good once out of th shop.

Install the SS rubrail and window glass next week. I can then focus on the trailer. ;)

[capt jake]

The Nylic leveled itself out by the time I got home today (about a day). Looks good and I am forging ahead! :)

[capt jake]

Kind of ironic today. I finished the boat (all except mounting the engine and putting it on the trailer) after installing the SS rubrail. Today is exactly 6 months since I began. Ironic. :)

[Paul Girouard]

Kind of ironic today. I finished the boat (all except mounting the engine and putting it on the trailer) after installing the SS rubrail. Today is exactly 6 months since I began. Ironic. :)

Braggart:D Oh I meant good job Jake :)

[capt jake]

Braggart:D Oh I meant good job Jake :)

I am dead tired. ;) I hope to have the shop cleaned a bit adn maybe the rain will subside so that I can take some pictures. I need to look at my logs and figure the time I spent (WAY too much) and money (also too much). ;)