jib vs forstays'l

[Brian Wood]

Hello all,
Finaly I am at the "design the sail plan" phase.
The CLR found, waterline determined.
The question at hand, forstays'l / none overlapping jib -OR- overlapping jib.
21' narrow hard chine sloop, shallow v bottom, cutaway forefoot deep keel dispacing about 2500 lbs loaded and ready to voyage. The mast step is 6.5' abaft the bow on deck. A bowsprit @ 33" forward from the afore mentioned point will be employed.

Thank you all for your support in getting this 23 year project finalized!

Brian

[Bob Cleek]

Overlapping jib. The boat's too small to be messing with passing a jib through a forestaysail stay. IMHO...

[Brian Wood]

Originally posted by Bob Cleek:
Overlapping jib. The boat's too small to be messing with passing a jib through a forestaysail stay. IMHO...hello Bob, I was planning to rig either an overlapping jib or a club footed jib which I named a forestays'l by mistake. I think what I am asking is if the overlapping jib will give better performance with slightly less convenience than a sail that does not overlap.
Brian

[John B]

Brian, its normal to have some options. A working jib ... perhaps 100 % say, and a genoa for lighter weather (because there are few things as frustrating as sitting dead in the water and watching someone powered up and sailing by).
and something small for when its gone a bit feral. ;)

[ 09-10-2005, 02:04 AM: Message edited by: John B ]

[Frank E. Price]

Or you can stick with the self-tacking jib and put the extra sail cloth into the main. The older tradition was to screw around less with light air sails and to reef a bigger working area more frequently. Depends on if you'd rather reef in the middle of the boat or go out on the bow and change headsails.

Some Brit, it may have been Uffa Fox, wrote up some experiments he conducted (or observed) with various ways of distributing a specific sail area on several sister hulls. The conclusion was that not lapping the jib and putting more area in the main made the fastest boat, boat-for-boat and measuring all the area, not just the area of the jib forward of the mast.

Frank

[George.]

A club-footed jib will self tack, but it makes heaving-to more difficult.

A loose-footed jib makes heaving-to as easy as putting the helm over, and also will fill easier in light airs, as it doesn't have to lift the weight of the foot.

Why not both? A club-footed jib, cut and sized for a fresh breeze, and an overlapping light-air jib set flying?

[Ian McColgin]

On the three boats I've had that had clubbed forestaysails, my preferred foresail in heaving-to as the jib tended to be too big, I'd just put a tag line to the rail and then tack over, letting the tag line hold the staysail to weather. I could also push the staysail up and secure it easily enough.

Use some sort of slippery hitch so's you can caste it off in a hurry.

As it happens, that's just about the right place on the rail for a cleat for the spring line.

[Brent B]

If you would give us the proposed rig dimensions, I, J, P, E, we could get a better picture. Also need to know masthead or fractional rig, swept spreaders or backstay?

Brent
Benson Sails

[Brian Wood]

Originally posted by Brent B:
If you would give us the proposed rig dimensions, I, J, P, E, we could get a better picture. Also need to know masthead or fractional rig, swept spreaders or backstay?

Brent
Benson SailsHello Brent,
Fractional rig, no spreaders, no backstay.
mast rake 5 degrees
Tip of bowsprit to mast centre line: 10'
main luff: 15.5'
gaff length 3.5'
gaff angle to mast: 30 degrees
foot: 12'
leech: 20'

Jib- bowsprit tang to masthead tang: 21.5'
deck to masthead tang: 21.5'

Thank you, I will supply any other dimensions you need

Brian

[Ian McColgin]

Sounds very nice, though I'd have thought a little more mainsail would do well. Are you designing this all yourself or have you a sailmaker or NA in the mix?

If she's really a cruiser (even if not) you may want some good control on that jib as it goes up and down.

The sheeting can be the simplest. It's a small jib.

I'd definatly go with a downhaul. It would be quite tempting to throw in a jib topping lift so's you can get the jib down to stay down without it dragging in the water or whatever.

It could be worth having a hanging sort of dawdle line, possible spliced to a becket on the block under the club so it can't foul in the block itself. When the jib is struck this could be secured around the mast if you want the j ib centered or with a slippery round hitch down the sheet itself on which ever side you want the jib pulled over on.

Or whatever such amuses you and gets the struck jib tamely out of the way.

Sounds like a cute wee rig.

G'luck

[Brent B]

That 3.5' gaff seems atypically short.

By my quick calc, the main has an area around 110 sq ft, and the biggest selftacking jib that will fit into the foretriangle is 90 sq ft. This is adequate for the boat if you generally have decent wind.

I tend to prefer a bigger mainsail and smaller jib, as suggested earlier by someone else, and reef the main as the wind builds. Alternatively, if your budget allows, three headsails for various wind conditions is what many sailors find work quite well.

Brent
Benson Sails

[Brian Wood]

Originally posted by Brent B:
That 3.5' gaff seems atypically short.

By my quick calc, the main has an area around 110 sq ft, and the biggest selftacking jib that will fit into the foretriangle is 90 sq ft. This is adequate for the boat if you generally have decent wind.

I tend to prefer a bigger mainsail and smaller jib, as suggested earlier by someone else, and reef the main as the wind builds. Alternatively, if your budget allows, three headsails for various wind conditions is what many sailors find work quite well.

Brent
Benson SailsHello again Brent,
If I increase the main then the lead decreases from about 14% to abt 11 or 12 %. Since the hull is narrow, abt 5' chine to chine amidships, but narrower by the stern, more lead would be better don't you think. I have purchased a very large high clew jib to make a nice lapper and a couple of other sails with. I found a jib 4' too long in the luff and 9.5' on the foot that will make a nice medium sail. the leftover from the HUGE jib will be enough to make a good fresh breeze sail. Three it is!

Thanks for the help,
Brian

[Brian Wood]

Originally posted by Ian McColgin:
Sounds very nice, though I'd have thought a little more mainsail would do well. Are you designing this all yourself or have you a sailmaker or NA in the mix?

If she's really a cruiser (even if not) you may want some good control on that jib as it goes up and down.

The sheeting can be the simplest. It's a small jib.

I'd definatly go with a downhaul. It would be quite tempting to throw in a jib topping lift so's you can get the jib down to stay down without it dragging in the water or whatever.

It could be worth having a hanging sort of dawdle line, possible spliced to a becket on the block under the club so it can't foul in the block itself. When the jib is struck this could be secured around the mast if you want the j ib centered or with a slippery round hitch down the sheet itself on which ever side you want the jib pulled over on.

Or whatever such amuses you and gets the struck jib tamely out of the way.

Sounds like a cute wee rig.

G'luckHello Ian,
She is a cute wee rig. Her original name was Windwood but I will be using the northern gaelic "Gaothfiodh" instead. I have done the design myself. A lot of book reading and internet reading of past and present theoretical CLR/CE/lead question. I will be rigging her to be handled from the cockpit and only have to go forward if I have to.

Thanks,
happy sails.
Brian

[Brian Wood]

Originally posted by Brian Wood:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Brent B:
That 3.5' gaff seems atypically short.

By my quick calc, the main has an area around 110 sq ft, and the biggest selftacking jib that will fit into the foretriangle is 90 sq ft. This is adequate for the boat if you generally have decent wind.

I tend to prefer a bigger mainsail and smaller jib, as suggested earlier by someone else, and reef the main as the wind builds. Alternatively, if your budget allows, three headsails for various wind conditions is what many sailors find work quite well.

Brent
Benson SailsHello again Brent,
If I increase the main then the lead decreases from about 14% to abt 11 or 12 %. Since the hull is narrow, abt 5' chine to chine amidships, but narrower by the stern, more lead would be better don't you think. I have purchased a very large high clew jib to make a nice lapper and a couple of other sails with. I found a jib 4' too long in the luff and 9.5' on the foot that will make a nice medium sail. the leftover from the HUGE jib will be enough to make a good fresh breeze sail. Three it is!

Thanks for the help,
Brian</font>[/QUOTE]p.s.
The short gaff was inspired by a design shown recently in WoodenBoat. Good upwing performance with the downwind performance of a gaff. Until I viewed this design I was planning on a gunter rig with a long gunter yard. My first choice was a gaff though.

[Ian McColgin]

You might go to a single main hallyard, not peak and throat. This is perfectly feasable with such a short gaff and even easier if you make it a slightly curved dutch style gaff. The pull on such a hallyard is about 1/3 back along the gaff so it will give more tension to the luff than the leech.

Given the overlapping jib, you now have the choise of roller furling. If the decision's not already made, talk with your sailmaker about putting strips of foam in the luff to allow for roller reefing. You need the foam in strips with a bit of space so they don't bunch, and more in the mid-luff where the belly is greatest. The foam should be designed for reefing to one point and that should be marked with tack and peak patches.

G'luck