New marinized John Deere 4045 = $15k, rebuild = <1/2 that...tough choice?

[portsample]

I'm looking at repowering a boat that I am working on w/a diesel. I am familiar w/the Lugger 6068T having had one in another boat. I am considering the smaller 4-cylinder sibling of this motor, a 4045. When these are shiny and new they cost about $15,000. These motors are widely available as rebuilds pulled from farm equipment. The prices range from $4,000 for a rebuilt stripped long block to about $8,000 fully rigged and carrying a 12 month warranty.

It seems as if for the $7,000+ that I would save that I should be able to pick up an expansion tank, spray on a nice coat of marine paint, add keel cooler fittings, etc.

It can't be that easy. Where is the rub? Has anyone else wandered down this path? Thanks for all advice/anecdotes/wisdom rendered.

portsample

[merlinron]

i don't mean to cause a thread drift here and i hope it doesn't because of one question, but your problem brought a question to my mind.....
i'm not at all framiliar with marine engines, but fully framiliar with rebuilding internal combustion engines of all sorts. my question is how come no-one wants to rebuild the marine engine that is in the boat?. when the suject comes up the first thought is to get a new engine.... i realize you are asking about a rebuild, but from a rebuilder as i gather from your post. why not just pull what you have and have it rebuilt? everything you need is already there( with exception, of course, of the worn out parts that you would pay for from a rebuilder anyway) and the savings over a new one is considerable, as well as is the savings over buying an already rebuilt short block. the other costs are pretty much a wash, pulling, transport and installation, so i would think other than time waiting for the rebuilding process, there would still be an advantage to just have your engine rebuilt(?). am i way off here?( not knowing much about the marine engine buisiness end of it all).

my other thought is that if the tractor engines would come with a stamped oil pan, couldn't you just swap pans as the core only has to have the same stuff o it that the rebuilt has? that is done all the time with the automotive engine rebuilts.

[Canoeyawl]

2004 model 4045 engine with 4 hours use. Goverment take out. Was on a Clarke water pump. It is on a frame and can be heard running. We have a double U joint coupler to hook it to a generator or what ever you want.It is a marine spec moter set at 130 HP. Literally a new engine for $5000. Tel 613 587 4441 or 613 639 1110.
Posted by: WILFRED DUNCAN
Phone: 613 587 4441

[portsample]

Merlinron- The current motor is a Chevy V-8 that is way too big for this boat. Original motor was likely a Chrysler inline 6 of about 240 cu inches/100hp.

BrianM- Interesting item about hp/torque performance curves being different for standard vs marinized motors. I'd assumed that a marinized was likely just a standard block w/upgraded components in the appropriate configuration for a boat.
Roger on the oil pan, that was on my list of parts to price from a Lugger dealer.

Does anyone know if Lugger/MER/Deere takes marinization to the level of sophistication that BrianM mentions?

[Tom Robb]

Too big as to dimensions, as to HP/Torque, weight? Why is it too big?
If it's only the power, detune it & it'll last longer. Getting a Chevy V8 fixed in the US of A is dirt simple. Where's Cordova?

[Hwyl]

You'll also be looking at spark proof starter motor and alternator, otherwise I'd go with the rebuild. Marine manufacturers usually go to great lengths to hide the base manufacturer of the engine, that's an indication that they're dealing in smoke and mirrors.

I've always said that a tractor engine has a much harder life than a marine engine, yet tractors seem to last forever. Usually it's an installation compromise in the marine engine.

I like thrust bearings on the shaft and UJ's, but go with what you'd like.

[merlinron]

if it's a matter of size (physical),and/or power and everything is already there for a gm smallblock, whynot a 4.3L- v6?....it would bolt right in, easily marinized, very common(cheap)marinized already and much smaller than a v-8.





typos

[kulas44]

The Cummins 4bt would be cheaper, parts are easier to find, a watercooled exhaust manifold usually costs less than $600 for them, other parts, like a raw water pump if needed, are direct boltons. If you'd rather not have a turbo the Perkins 4-236 is a good engine in that size range. You can buy a 4bt for around $1000, have it rebuilt for about another $1000, add the marinization stuff for $1000, that's 3000 bucks for a basically new engine. As for the old gas engine, they make pretty good mooring ball anchors, much better than they do as propulsion for a boat !!

[portsample]

Tom Robb- "Too big" as in the guy that installed it thought that if he threw enough horsepower at a displacement hull he could get it to plane: all he got were cracked ribs and compromised fasteners. Displacement hulls DON'T plane, (even in the US of A). Gas boats also have a reputation of going "Boom".

Hwyl- I've already got a reduction gear and a line on a conversion plate for a 4045, so it should be a fairly straightforward hookup. My old Lugger 6068 had a regular automotive alternator that had 5 years on it when I sold the boat.

kulas44- I'll look into the Cummins 4bt, although Cummins motors have reputations as screamers. I've considered the Perkins motors, but am a little hesitant as (I believe) that parts for the John Deere/Lugger/MERs are easier to come by in this part of the world. Do you have one of these motors?

[Bob Smalser]

The Lugger L1064 sure looks like the JD 4045 in my 1973 hoe.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL12/1104763/3075040/53606936.jpg

Wet liners, same bore/stroke, 2400rpm. If so, then Alaska Diesel would have all the parts to marinize one. Great engines, but not exactly lightweight.

http://www.northern-lights.com/

[portsample]

Yeah, it might be a 4045. In truth, my old Lugger 6068 was actually a Lugger 454 as that was the number when the motor was built in the early eighties. It was a great, reliable motor. And yeah, it was a heavy baby. A bob-tailed Lugger 4045 is just shy of 1,000 lbs.

[kulas44]

I just looked on ebay and found remanned Perkins 4-236's for $4600, complete, not marinized. Used ones for $1300. New Cummins 4bt, 4995, crate engine, brand new, not rebuilt. Used 4bt for $3000, good engine, low milage. Rebuilders for less than $1000. One thing to think about, the Cummins 4bt and 6bt can be had with the chevy bellhousing pattern, a manual transmission flywheel for the cummins is all you would need to hook directly to your current gear setup. The cummins engines aren't really "screamers" they top out at 2500 rpm. I have a 6bt sitting in my shop out of a wrecked truck, 57,000 miles on it. I also have two 855's if you'r interested in BIG diesels. I'd go with the 4bt if it were me.

[Bob Smalser]

Choices also depend on how hard it is to get the engine out of the boat.

I wouldn't put a diesel lacking wet liners in any boat that requires a Sawzall to change out the engine. What you save in the initial price of the engine somebody will pay through the nose for later.

[Primitive Pete]

When buying a re-built engine, most rebuilders want a core return of a similar motor to the one your buying. They sometimes charge big money for no core.
Also shop your rebuilder carefully. There's plenty of motors full of cheezy will-fit parts on the market. From the outside you can't tell.

[bruceS]

The 4045 Deere is in a class of it's own with a balance shaft. Much more sociable engine than the other two shakers.

[portsample]

BobS-the engine swap should be as easy as they come as I'll be pulling, (lifting) off the wheelhouse and will expose the motor completely. Pulling it in the future, (w/out again removing the wheelhouse) might not be possible.

PP-Are there any good rebuilders that you've used that you could recommend?

BS-Noise is a factor on this boat: when I crewed on it in the early 90's we'd all wear ear muff hearing protectors while in the wheelhouse traveling. I really don't want to get anything as loud or LOUDER than the old gas motor. Do you have a 4045?

Thanks for the responses guys.

[Bob Smalser]

PP-Are there any good rebuilders that you've used that you could recommend?



Noise can be hard to evaluate, but the engine noise of the 4045 is significantly quieter than the Cummins diesels Dodge installs in their larger pickups, but those are particularly awful. It's also less than the 8cyl 7.3 International in my F250, and the 60hp, 4cyl Dagenham Ford diesel in my farm tractor.

With wet liners, rebuilds on an engine stand are relatively easy, as the new pistons and rings fit the new liners perfectly. The only significant experience required is for changing out the main and crank bearings if there is any shaft wear, and perhaps engine timing once it's reassembled. Take the head to a machine shop for milling and valves, the injector pump to a rebuild specialist, and you can hire a diesel mechanic to come over as required. I'd spring for real JD parts, too.

But as my 4045 has run 4000 hours since 1973, needs nothing, and hasn't had any work done except new pencil injectors and oil changes, not all I mention may be required.

Otherwise finding a rebuild service depends on where you are. Who fixes all that pipeline equipment in Valdez? Fuel injector pump rebuilders like H&H Diesel in Tacoma are more common...call your nearest one and ask.

[kulas44]

Most if not all diesels are going to be noisier than the small block chevy, especially the cummins. A good intake silencer and heavier than normall exhaust components will help. The Lugger/Deere is a very hard engine to beat for marine use. The smaller Cats are also pretty good. The smoothest, quietest, most economical diesels I've seen are the new Cummins/Mercruiser 4 cylinders. they are sweet, if you can stand an all electronic engine.

[portsample]

Thanks for the noise comparison. My old Lugger 6068 wasn't too bad to converse over....it was in an old American Commercial gillnetter, and so was just underfoot.

Any idea how the Perkins compare to these? I have to admit that I am a bit biased against them. Nearly all of my sea time has been on commercial boats in Alaska and Perkins motors are rare here...I have yet to actually see one up close, much less hear what they sound like. I've always thought of them as recreational motors. Kulas mentioned that they could be picked up fairly cheap...Ebay always seems to have a couple kicking about.

Thanks again for your collective thoughts and opinions.

[carioca1232001]

"The smoothest, quietest, most economical diesels I've seen are the new Cummins/Mercruiser 4 cylinders. they are sweet, if you can stand an all electronic engine."

Granted. But derived from light diesels designed principally for automotive use.

Heavy duty diesels like J Deere, Cummins, International etc. are in a different class altogether.

But brand names don´t say it all.

Our local Motoren-Werke-Mannheim (MWM) diesel manufacturer, now part of the International Engines conglomerate, added light diesels (2,8 and 4,2 litre) to their product line in the mid-to-early 90´s. Unbeatable for automotive and light pick-up use but sort of fragile in marine usage.

[brian.cunningham]

Keep in mind diesels get a lot better fuel mileage than a gas engine. They're also better running at peak output for longer periods of time.
Diesel fuel is also safer to have aboard. Do you have a heater or a stove? are they gas or diesel?

If you want it rebuilt, just look up diesel in the yellow pages, and see what they want. There should be shops right near the docks, see where the fisherman like to take thiers.

[Bob Adams]

A little noisey, but it'll last forever, and you can sell the mate and get all your money back!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Pair-of-20-hour-Detroit-Diesel-4-53s-with-gears_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ50441QQihZ003QQit emZ130069198434QQrdZ1