Value of a Shipwright

[bainbridgeisland]

Ever give any thought about compensation in the Boat Building / Shipwright business?

I was at the research library at the Bainbridge Island, WA Museum yesterday and ran across old business records of a local Shipyard. In 1929 wages at Johnson Shipyard on Willow Street at Port Blakely Harbor, Bainbridge Island ranged from $0.45 to $1.12 per hour. They were building wooden boats and barges about 40-ft to 140-ft and repair work as they could find.

The fellows I Apprenticed under were in their late 50s and middle 60s in 1973. This means they apprenticed about 1930. So these wages represent the range of compensation available for their Apprenticeship.

I am not sure how much those Shipwrights made in 1973. I would guess about $10.00 per hour. This represents about %5.6 inflation average over 40-years. As an Apprentice, my starting pay was $3.00 per hour but jumped to $4.50 per hour after the first month. Since 0.45 is to 1.12 as 4 is to 10, this seems about right.

About 8-years ago billable rates at the nearby mega-yacht Boat Builders was $45 per hour. This would infer wages of about $15.00 per hour but maybe as high as $20.00. At %3.5 inflation rate this would be $59.26 per hour billing rate. I believe this is more than they bill today.

Ran across a small Boat Builder this past summer who charged $20 per hour for winter boat building. This was for a one-man shop and winter rates were lower. He did nice work too.

The Shipyard I work in now (real ships, not boats), pays a top Shipwright, Shipfitter, Mechanic, rigger and so forth about $27.00 per hour (plus good benefits). Remember that all workers are not top in their trade though. Billable rate for these wages is about $60 per hour.

Taking the 1973 wages of a top man and projecting to today at %3.5 inflation would suggest $31.12 as an equivalent wage. And the $4.00 starting wage would be $12.44. I may be wrong but I don't think the industry generally supports these wages.

My conclusion is that Boat Builders are probably not doing as well today as they did in the past.

[paladin]

My dad's wages at Marineship, 1944, were $1.72 per hour......and he was one of the more skilled.....

[Paul Girouard]

I would agree most blue collar workers wages have not kept up with normal inflation. With the cost of fuel , tools, clothing etc. no / few blue collar workers are payed a fair , living wage.

[pcford]

And people still want to pay $15 or $20 on a contract basis.

[Dave Fleming]

When I started in 1962 as a 'green pea' apprentice in San Francisco, the lowest rate was 60% of Journeyman's wages, $1.60 per hour. That was what I started out as.

When I retired my wages were about $35.00 per hour. The yard rate was $70.00 per hour. That was in 1989.

Most of the rank and file were making about $18.00 to $22.00 per hour.

Union contract specifies minimum wage per rank but, does not prohibit being paid above scale.

This is in 'insane Diego' which is the lowest paying area on the West Coast of North America because of being right next to Mexico.


Poof, I was never here.

[Kim Whitmyre]

Poof, I was never here.


:) :)

[Jay Greer]

In 1949 my first boat yard job consisted of pushing broom and tailing planks for the boat builders. I got paid a whopping $.85 in the beginning. By the end of the first year I was making $1.25. After taxes not much was left. But I stuck with it and now I'm still pushing that damn broom but, in my own shop!
JG

[WadeH]

And people still want to pay $15 or $20 on a contract basis.

Ofcourse they do. If they are paying for work to be done they want to pay the 15 dollars an hour, if they were doing the work they want to make the 35 dollars an hour. That is just the way people are. Nothing we can do about it.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Ever give any thought about compensation in the Boat Building / Shipwright business?

I was at the research library at the Bainbridge Island, WA Museum yesterday and ran across old business records of a local Shipyard. In 1929 wages at Johnson Shipyard on Willow Street at Port Blakely Harbor, Bainbridge Island ranged from $0.45 to $1.12 per hour. They were building wooden boats and barges about 40-ft to 140-ft and repair work as they could find.

The fellows I Apprenticed under were in their late 50s and middle 60s in 1973. This means they apprenticed about 1930. So these wages represent the range of compensation available for their Apprenticeship.

I am not sure how much those Shipwrights made in 1973. I would guess about $10.00 per hour. This represents about %5.6 inflation average over 40-years. As an Apprentice, my starting pay was $3.00 per hour but jumped to $4.50 per hour after the first month. Since 0.45 is to 1.12 as 4 is to 10, this seems about right.

About 8-years ago billable rates at the nearby mega-yacht Boat Builders was $45 per hour. This would infer wages of about $15.00 per hour but maybe as high as $20.00. At %3.5 inflation rate this would be $59.26 per hour billing rate. I believe this is more than they bill today.

Ran across a small Boat Builder this past summer who charged $20 per hour for winter boat building. This was for a one-man shop and winter rates were lower. He did nice work too.

The Shipyard I work in now (real ships, not boats), pays a top Shipwright, Shipfitter, Mechanic, rigger and so forth about $27.00 per hour (plus good benefits). Remember that all workers are not top in their trade though. Billable rate for these wages is about $60 per hour.

Taking the 1973 wages of a top man and projecting to today at %3.5 inflation would suggest $31.12 as an equivalent wage. And the $4.00 starting wage would be $12.44. I may be wrong but I don't think the industry generally supports these wages.

My conclusion is that Boat Builders are probably not doing as well today as they did in the past.

I pay from 30 to 50 depending on the seniority of who happens to be working...

[George Roberts]

Some people never learn to do their work fast.

A fast person/crew is often worth twice what a slow person/crew is worth.

---

[pcford]

While looking for a good boatwright in S.F. 3 years ago here is what I found:

<snips>
Some of the traits of the various men I had to pickover included:
- an "artisan" with little sense of urgency/schedule
- strict "restorationist", there is only one way to do it (not my way)
- "I can do that"... but no records/references to back it up
- "he's really fast"...... guess who I picked...

Well, obviously, the one to pick would be the one which has the possibility of costing you the least.

Why is it that someone does not know how to do a job, will nonetheless know how much it should cost? Always been a mystery to me.

[pcford]

If it means taking the boat apart to learn what you need to know, I believe it makes good sense to quote the dissassembly for the purpose of quoting.
Explain what this means to you. Does it mean that you should be able to "quote" the disassembly? In other words should you be able to give a bid on disassembly?

[pcford]

Yes. Same approach is used by other tradesmen I deal with. If they can't see what needs the work, they bill the hours to "climb in" and find out. The boatwrights I spoke with who didn't want to commit to a quote because they "didn't know what they might find", did not offer an quote to open things up to see what needed seeing.


Regarding disassembly prior to assessing the repairs needed...can you tell me how you do a bid on a disassembly when there are rotted members involved?

[ssor]

I have encountered homeowners that tell me that they have termite damage and want to know how much it will cost to make the repairs.
I can only tell them that I will have to make a through inspection of the area in question before I can know the extent of the damage. I will tell them that I will prepare a detailed report and a quotation for the cost of repairs for XX $. Sometimes they accept this and sometimes they don't . It isn't my problem until I offer to do the work and they accept.

[pcford]

Brian M.

Would you please answer my last question? Thank you.

[pcford]

see PM.. we've hijacked this thread...sorry bainbridgeisland....:p

It seems that the discussion is an insight into the earning capabilities of professional boatwrights. Totally appropriate, it seems to me.

If you are troubled by a possible "hijacking" of the thread, please start another. But answer my question, please.

[Wild Wassa]

It sounds like such a different place to work, working here, to working there.

When anyone asks for a quote, I don't do quotes. I can't honestly quote and explain why, "I'll work until your money runs out," is the honest reply.

I also have a guarantee that if a client finds a blemish or can see what I've done they don't pay the fee ... that's what makes painting boats so very interesting.

If a client asks for a hint of a quote so that they can start saving up for a job, that's different, so I say, "think $250 per linear foot for paint anything else you can have for free ... and don't forget to measure the inside." Then I show them what I'm working on and we usually go and look at boats that I've done ... it isn't the price that will make up their mind.

If people come looking to penny pinch, or concider that it is a privilege to work on their boat, I suggest they go to a boatwright.

If people keep adding things to do halfway through the job, they have to understand that a certain amont of time was allowed for the job ... and it all then, starts again. My favourite kind of client doesn't ask how much will it be. For those people, they get secret jobs done for free.

The clients who want a pound of flesh ... I'm certain that I will take it. Could this be the compensation mentioned earlier?

I really wonder if working over there 'is' different to working over here.

Warren.

[paladin]

Warren.....My apologies...but I gotta ask.....is your $250 bucks a foot American or Australian dollars?.....and there's a reason I'm asking.....

[Wild Wassa]

Paladin, it is probably more than $250 US because the clients work along side me, as my labourers. They shout me lunch and afternoon beers. The clients know the tradition. Most clients come from recommendations.

I encourage the clients to work along side me on all occassions. Many take their holidays to do it. They see where their money has gone and what is involved and feel what it is like to stand with their arms above their heads for hours at a time ... it doesn't take long before they can't lift their arm above their heads.

They know that they are getting good value, no hidden tricks or shortcuts that undermine their dollar and they are learning their boats ... and they don't leave with the smugness, have a know it all attitude or show lack of respect for the worker ... that I'm reading here from one contributor.

Warren.

[B_B]

Hard work, skilled craftsmanship, and a fair deal is all anyone wants in the end.

and a customer who understands that hard work, skilled craftsmanship and a fair deal, along with the experience to know what to do when, is NEVER the lowest quote...hardest thing there is - convincing clients that they should be wary of cosmetic 'repairs'.

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Not really sure how this discussion opens up to philosophies on how "the worker" is respected or not. Hard work, skilled craftsmanship, and a fair deal is all anyone wants in the end.

Actually, plenty of people are happy to *#%! the other guy for profit. That's why this is capitalism, and not the barter system.

I've only been doing boat carpentry for 4 years now, but I've already met my fair share of the Rich, many of whom are primarily interested in the Unfair deal. (see: outsourcing jobs to [insert 3rd world nation of choice here])

[paladin]

The quote for Tana Mari, 44'9" on deck, was $20,000 U.S. and I would remove all hardware, and replace said hardware after painting was finished. The bottom was already clean and ready for bottom paint. I had already cleaned and filled a few dings so that they were invisible.....I put on some bottom paint...had her relaunched....went shopping...checked my lists 3-4 times.....and headed to Thailand....Completely refinish the boat inside and out, hoses etc....lube thre hulls etc....for half the 20K.....

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Hmmm... I've always thought wages were self regulating... I charge what I need to to live, and to keep a steady supply of work... usually up here as a renovator carpenter etc, it's between 15 and 30 dollars an hour depending on what it is I'm doing. I must be a hack:)

[SV Papillon]

Something that I would be curious to know. It would seem that in the US anything near the water is very expensive with a few exceptions. Any of the harbors that are known for boating centers are pretty expensive. With the exception of CO-OPs, shipwrights making a living in a area have to maintain at minimum a decent sized shop or waterfront space. Yet here in seattle the shipwrigths I have talked to are charging $50 to $60 an hour, below what some of the yards or custom rigging shops are charging $75-$80 hr. After operating expences how are you supposed to make any money? Are the relestate prices pushing guys out everywhere. For example while looking for some outside storage I called a newish storage co. by the Ballard bridge and was quoted $560.00 a month for a uncovered 10' x 30' piece of dirt!!

Jake

[Dave Fleming]

Ever sit down and fugger what it costs a person to be an 'independent contractor' working on the waterfront?

How you going to deal with sanding dust, old bottom paint, all the other refuse that is produced from the job?
You folks ever hear of 'LHW'?
Insurance on his tools and if lucky, shop space?
We won't even go into whether the independent can afford to carry Medical Insurance for his family.

Down here in 'insane Diego' there is practically ***** ZERO **** waterfront shop space for independents. Oh, you may be lucky and be able to rent say 500 Sq.Ft. from one of the long term lease holders but, that is usually month to month. Just before Christmas I was told that most lease holders are refusing to let independents into their yards.
Plus marinas don't really like to see work being done on boats moored on their piers.
There is too much litigation ammunition connected with independents.

The few places that will allow an independent to work require you to show them your insurance coverage both for you and any help you may hire for the job.

The story goes that Dennis Connor had a hell of a time assembling a competent crew to work on Cotton Blossom.
Because of who he is he was able to rent some space from one of the major lease holders on Shelter Island. Shelter Island is pretty much the center of boat work on San Diego Bay. He ran through quite a few supposed shipwrights before he finally had a crew he could trust.

I really cannot comment on how things are today re:yard crews.

For most of my working years, SWIMPAL did not work. She/We chose for her to stay at home and take care of the 3 sons.
So, it was imperative that I work in a yard that was Union. That way we had Medical-Dental-Eye Care coverage.

Historically Shipwrights earned approx. 60% per hour of what an Uptown Carpenter did. The story given to explain this was, an Uptown Carpenter was affected by the rainy winters and be laid off. Whereas a Shipwright could work through the year because he could be undercover.

Poof, I was never here.

[Paul Girouard]

Historically Shipwrights earned approx. 60% per hour of what an Uptown Carpenter did. The story given to explain this was, an Uptown Carpenter was affected by the rainy winters and be laid off. Whereas a Shipwright could work through the year because he could be undercover.

Poof, I was never here.

Same way union millworkers/ cabinetmaker make less than union carpenters.

Your almost invisible Dave ;)

[pcford]

I'm tired and won't go on long...

I find it so strange that people will have a wooden boat as a major part of their life...WoodenBoat magazine displayed obviously on a coffee table. They like to indicate to others that they appreciate good craftmanship.

Yet when the time comes to hire someone to work on that boat, to actually _do_ that craftsmanship it is all arrogance and condescension. And sometimes wanting craftsmen to work for next to nothing.

We have had a few instances of that 'round here lately.

Luckily, I have had none of this kind of customer in the last several years. Yes, I have had trouble in the past. Late pays, no pays, "I forgot my checkbook." I never let someone get farther ahead of me that I can afford to lose. In any case, a trip to small claims court has always brought them around so far.

Rents in Seattle make it almost impossible for a small operation to survive. I had a shop in Ballard, used to be the old Hough Machine Shop, now it's Ballard Bookcase...for you homeboys. I don't have a shop now, but I am doing at least as well as I did before with that overhead hanging over me.

It ain't easy....a friend has a wood carving of those words on the wall of his boatshop. And it ain't.

You owners should reflect before you offer puffed up advice regarding the correct way to run a boatshop, suggest that work should always be on the basis of bid only, compare small boatshops to commercial enterprises which actually make real money, or state that they should be able to get someone for $15 or $20 an hour. The fact is that you look pretty foolish to those of us in the business. And I certainly would not want to work with you.

[bainbridgeisland]

This thread has morphed a little which is OK.

In the 1980s I had a boat shop that concentrated on building custom racing sailboats. As many of you know that business is subject to big fluctuations. We set up the business with this in mind.

All the tools and equipment were kept in storage. Each time we got a new project it took a couple of helpers and myself about 2-days to set up shop.

Our shop was generally short-term lease of industrial space. The space was always inland. We found such space was available as long as our landlord realized it was a short-term commitment. We essentially did him a favor by filling up slow production time (or so I tried to tell them). We had references that showed we kept a clean shop, paid on time and didn't usually run too much longer than we contracted for.

We always checked with the Fire department and City before leasing the space. That way it only took a few days after moving in until we were operating.

I generally allowed 2-days for cleanup.

My business failed to earn money regularly enough for my needs and I eventually closed the doors. But I think the portable shop idea worked well. I literally charged a shop setup fee as part of my estimates. Nobody ever complained about it. My fixed costs were very predictable which is important in a business with small margins.

My insurance was also for each specific boat we built. This cost was also directly passed on to the customer without complaints.

[pcford]

All the tools and equipment were kept in storage. Each time we got a new project it took a couple of helpers and myself about 2-days to set up shop.
<snips>


Clever strategy! Don't think it would work for me, though. I do runabout restorations. Job size varies widely; they can be a few thousand to tens of thousands.

[Gary E]

It's no wonder that the days of wood boats have been numberd fora long time..
How many days left? That number is decreasing at exponetional rates

[Stephen Hutchins]

Income to cost of living ratios are worse than in the past for most jobs. My parents income in 1980 was $18k a year. Enough total dollars earned to pay off their first house of $30k in two years. By contrast, with my income of $25k a year, if I saved all of it for ten years strait, I could buy an acere of land (no house) where I grew up. -Doesn't exactly make me hopeful of the American Dream.

[Lucky Luke]

How much you said???:eek:

35$/hr. said Dave, and the end of his career in the late 80s, as an undeniably experienced shipwright. 35$/hr. x 8hR/day x 20days/month= 5600$/ month.
To me, expatriated french man, that sounds ENORMOUS..!! Still, I believe it never made Dave rich:rolleyes:

This just shows the width of the income/ cost of living scale worldwide.

I pay, here in Vietnam, a average experienced engineer 450 to 500$/ month, on 13 months/year, plus a variable bonus, which means they earn approx. 650$/20days/8hrs= 4$/ hr. !

With this money, they will never be able to buy a house (not because of construction costs, but land price), cars are to be considered as non-existant, but to feed their wife and kids and offer them an education equivalent to theirs (5 to 6 years university)

Myself, having invested in a lot of equipment, training, taking the risk of the ups and downs on the work, doing an average 10 hrs./day six days/week and having zero holiday, I am left with 1,000 to 1,500$/ month, and I am happy with it!...or have to be happy. I don t have a car either, zero security, and rent the house in which I live.

If I would not have done that, I would be on the dull in France (very little since I worked expat much of my life), unable to find a place to live, no wife, and could perhaps not stand it.....

Don t you think there is a problem somewhere?

Now that there are fast and cheap international communications, that many things, from a pair of shoes to a megayacht can be manufactured in countries like here, how long do you think that you (US/ Europe persons) can maintain your living standard at such costs?????....or simply: have a job!?

It is easy to accuse those people or companies who outsource jobs, but what about considering that you are just ABSOLUTELY too expensive? That you are living above normal standard, using too much of the world resources (since you have the income to afford it), but that this is crumbling?

I am sorry to write what sounds (and actually is) a rant in this section of the WB forum, but I think that, since this thread kind of deviated from its original intend, this problem could be mentionned here.

[erster]

How much you said???:eek:

35$/hr. said Dave, and the end of his career in the late 80s, as an undeniably experienced shipwright. 35$/hr. x 8hR/day x 20days/month= 5600$/ month.
To me, expatriated french man, that sounds ENORMOUS..!! Still, I believe it never made Dave rich:rolleyes:

This just shows the width of the income/ cost of living scale worldwide.

I pay, here in Vietnam, a average experienced engineer 450 to 500$/ month, on 13 months/year, plus a variable bonus, which means they earn approx. 650$/20days/8hrs= 4$/ hr. !

With this money, they will never be able to buy a house (not because of construction costs, but land price), cars are to be considered as non-existant, but to feed their wife and kids and offer them an education equivalent to theirs (5 to 6 years university)

Myself, having invested in a lot of equipment, training, taking the risk of the ups and downs on the work, doing an average 10 hrs./day six days/week and having zero holiday, I am left with 1,000 to 1,500$/ month, and I am happy with it!...or have to be happy. I don t have a car either, zero security, and rent the house in which I live.

If I would not have done that, I would be on the dull in France (very little since I worked expat much of my life), unable to find a place to live, no wife, and could perhaps not stand it.....

Don t you think there is a problem somewhere?

Now that there are fast and cheap international communications, that many things, from a pair of shoes to a megayacht can be manufactured in countries like here, how long do you think that you (US/ Europe persons) can maintain your living standard at such costs?????....or simply: have a job!?

It is easy to accuse those people or companies who outsource jobs, but what about considering that you are just ABSOLUTELY too expensive? That you are living above normal standard, using too much of the world resources (since you have the income to afford it), but that this is crumbling?

I am sorry to write what sounds (and actually is) a rant in this section of the WB forum, but I think that, since this thread kind of deviated from its original intend, this problem could be mentionned here.

Sounds like to me that you are just existing from day to day. :rolleyes: So thats a great plan for any hickups and any long term security? I think you are way off base when you want to bring this country, the U.S. further down in its living standards, as so many in this country promote to be done to people that are achievers.

I would like to highlight one paragraph.



It is easy to accuse those people or companies who outsource jobs, but what about considering that you are just ABSOLUTELY too expensive? That you are living above normal standard, using too much of the world resources (since you have the income to afford it), but that this is crumbling?

What you are also promoting in your shortsided comment is to cut the throats further of the countries working class in Vietnam. Does the name Broyhill ring a bell in Vietnam? Thats just one name of a major furniture maker that has taken their jobs to Vietnam building junk furniture, also raping the resourses of that country and taking advantage of the working class in Vietnam. [Sound familiar]:rolleyes:



As you have admitted to,



If I would not have done that, I would be on the dull in France (very little since I worked expat much of my life), unable to find a place to live, no wife, and could perhaps not stand it.....



France has done a heck of a job in destroying their county and its people and have sent you to yet another slave laden country of simple subsistance, or existance.


With this money, they will never be able to buy a house

Now this is really something to be proud while condemning the U.S.. I guess the old plantation owner is still alive and well after reading your post and how you talk about the experienced engineer. And you condemn this country, a country that has seen the working class, especially the experienced engineers and yes even the blue color minority worker rise to home ownership.

So yes I will conclude that even the highly skilled shipwright is not worth much in your land by you as has been represented by several domestic members in this country. This mindset has also created people that are now resorting to building boats, filling large voids created by misfits with thickened glues and buying furniture filled with sawdust from developing nations such as Vietnam at the expense also of their workers.

Again who is really crumbling, the country that prides itself in taking advantage of professional engineers or a country that promotes the sky as the limit for the ones willing to take the risk, time and show the will to be better than the many third world countries living from day to day.

The U.S. may have its problems. But we also have some availiable time and energy to discuss these issues while others are barely making headway. You only go round once in life. Each day is one less day on Earth.

Pride is displayed not by creating mass production press wood junk, living from day to day, but by hand crafted anything , something that a true shipwright does and is not being paid to continue to do these days except on avery limited scale.


I think its also sad that we are reading people bragging about how little they actually have and promote slave wages and rental housing as being the best they can do even with a professional degree as being something to subscribe to as seeking the best life has to offer. .

A computer will not replace the guy cutting and fitting in place a nice piece of selected piece of cherry or mahogany on compound angles, all varnished up allowing the owner to say hey look at my original work of art and have something to pass along that lasts more than four to five years at most, something that we are seeing each day in production model everything.

[Hwyl]

Erster, I think you may have Luc wrong. He provides high tech jobs in a country that I think he enjoys living in, he pays himself 3 times more than his workers, I'm guessing that he pays the prevailing wage or better in his Vietnam. I'd love to learn to be able to do what he does.

You ought to check out his website http://www.3dyachts.com/.

As for your statement
France has done a heck of a job in destroying their county and its people

France has the largest Yacht manufacturer in the world, so big that they have built a factory in the U.S., not technically outsourcing, but they pay less to their U.S. worker than they do to their French workers, so as far as boatbuilding goes I think you are wrong.

I still think Lucky Luke should be building schooners here in Maine, but give him respect for what he does, and does well, while also putting food on the table for others.

[erster]

Really? Then he should go back and enjoy France. Why did he seek out another country only to be in a situation that owning your own land is non-existant as a professional person.


By his own admission it appears that he feels he is in the higher percentage or income and enjoys a skill that is afforded to only a person willing to go the extra mile in higher learning. In his contribution addressing the U.S., using his own post, he feels that the most basic form of security of homeownership to be a luxuary, since we all know that a certain income level is required to achieve this, and maintain the most simply form of expression.


He admits that his income level does not allow for this, and even his professionals under him will not allow this most basic enjoyment of having a secure roof over a person's head. I am not condemning his professional ability. I am personally addressing the idea that he left one country, which I accept as being a crumbling country and its policies, and now is in a situation in another land to help improve people's lives, but yet are unable to achieve as a professional something that seems to have been one basic desire of all humans, even the pioneers that crossed this country in wagon trains, a home that they can call their own.

Without continuing to hyjack this thread further, in his country, and that part of the world, many fine craftmen have built many boats of virgin woods, old growth, raping their lands. Now that part of the world is resorting to building absolute junk, sending the stuff back to the U.S. and then complain on this thread addressing fare wages for a dieing breed of craftmen, that the U.S is living above their standards and enjoying too much money while taking every avaliable american dollar these lands can get their hands on.:eek:

Yes I personally take issue especially since the state of North Carolina is on the receiving end of job losses seeking their cheap labor offered in Vietnam. The job losses also came at the expense of skilled workers in the furniture industry that also were afforded home ownership for several generations. I am dead on when addressing the issue that is he actually better off at the expense of the American skilled craftsman and in return attack the U.S. as living above the standard that Vietnam is exhibiting now.


He gladly accepts the American Dollar from the American worker that is living above their means in comparison to Vietnam See any hypocricy in the notion that America should do without? Ever consider the loss of income in Vietnam while American workers are cut down to size? Its nice to continue to condemn America, and yes at the expense of skilled shipwights, yes something that has certain jobs that cannot be reproduced by a stupid computer. Later


FWIW, I also did service work on some imports of the Guy Couach.

[bainbridgeisland]

I believe one needs to be careful when comparing wages between different parts of the world. I used to live in the Philippines and still have both family and friends there. Five years ago, living wages for a family of four in metro Manila was about $600 per month. This paid for food, lodging, transportation, school and health care. Obviously the entire economy is different than the USA.

If your goal in such an economy is to buy 'international things', $600 is a pittance. But believe it or not, many people live happily without 'international things'. My family and friends are well off by Filipino standards and I love visiting their beguiling lives. But by USA standards they do not earn much.

One cannot even expect people in diverse cultures who earn a good living to earn the same amout of USA dollars. I took a Nephew skiing a few weeks ago. He would never have the opportunity in the Philippines due to lack of snow but more germane, though his family owns a successful shoe factory, they would never have the money in USA dollars. However, in the Philippines his family has multiple servants, gardeners and even a chauffeur. These are things I could never afford in the USA.

My point is the local economy must be taken into account when looking at wages. A good example is the wages Dave was receiving in San Diego. Despite the proximity to Mexico, it is an expensive place to live. Shipwrights in a less expensive place like say Mississippi would have no chance of earning that much. So even within the USA there are major differences.

By the way, the wages Dave was earning (well above Union scale) indicate he was in great demand. Obviously, the peak of his earning power does not represent the local average.

[Rumblewood]

Up here in the Great White North, when I was employed full time in a boatyard I would provide an estimate for the work required. If the extent of the work required was difficult to determine, then a maximum dollar amount would be given as to how much it would cost to do some partial disassembly in order to provide a comprehensive estimate. This did serve to weed out those who weren't really serious about getting the work done properly. The Yard charged $65/hr for my time, of which I was compensated $30/hr. If the project took longer ( as they always do), I was only paid based on the estimated hours. Being a small yard, I also performed all the launching duties, hauling duties, test drives, and on occaision, provided mediation between the marina and 'difficult' clients. With all the interruptions, my actual wage rebuilding and refinishing probably worked out to about $12/hr CDN( about $10/hr American).
I often have remarked that if I was independently wealthy I'd work on boats. Up here on the Rideau system near Ottawa the season is about 7 months, skilled workers are hard to find, and those with skills are working in other trades. There are quite a few wood boats around here suffering from lack of attention and 'applied ignorance. I left the Marina three years ago, but some of my best clients are now good friends, and as I look out at the river, and a thermometer reading -5 degrees F, I am seriously thinking about getting back into it --- and I'm not even remotely wealthy !! Wood boats really are a disease !!

[Bob Cleek]

A colleague of mine handled a divorce case recently for a fellow with a couple of years of junior college and no degree who made over $700,000 a year as a construction contract estimator. $400,000 of that was his annual bonus. It seemed pretty amazing to me. But, when you think about it, he probably made the company he worked for many millions in the same time frame, owing to their profit on the jobs he was able to successfully bid.

Looking at the boatyard industry from the same perspective, there just isn't the same value added profit that is currently available to the building trades. As a result, the yards can't pay guys what the contracting companies pay for similar tradesmen.

Also, consider that today there is a much stronger "do it yourself" ethic in play. DIY has become a major market segment across the board. I suspect that few of us who frequent this corner of the net would ever have the wealth to maintain a yacht back when gentlemen yachtsment didn't get their hands dirty and paid crew were the norm. In those days, there was a lot more work on the waterfront, and it was a lot more diverse than today. The greats of the golden age like the Herreshoffs and Burgesses and the rest drew and built yachts for fabulously wealthy people at a time when wealth was much less evenly distributed than it is today. Rich men paid peanuts then too, but to workers who were happy to get work at all. Today's "new blood" come out of college and want to do something "fun" and "meaningful," so they decide to take a couple of classes on boatbuilding and become boatbuilders. It shouldn't come as a surprise to them that a white collar professional job is going to pay more than a blue collar one. Moreover, the boat trades were much more diverse in the old days. They'd hire the proverbial "idiot boy" to sweep and scrape bottoms, the town drunk to paint them, others going through long apprenticeships to set bungs, sand, help and learn. And this hierarchy applied to any number of sub-trades, such as caulking, planking, joinerwork, patternmaking, rigging, and so on. At the top of the food chain were the most experienced of these "mechanics" who had paid their dues. Even they only made what the average working class guy did.

Today's boatworkers are often jacks of all trades, but masters of none. Add to that OSHA and the Harbors and Longshore Workers Act and so on, and the costs of doing business become astronomical, while labor becomes less of a cost factor. The workers get the short end of the stick.

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Back in the "good old days," boatbuilders made piss, just as they do today. The main difference is that today's boatbuilder has been convinced he can't live without that 50" plasma TV, or whatever the trinket of the moment may be, and as a result he spends more time lamenting his lot than he does counting his blessings.

[paladin]

Now I gotta get my deflated nickle in.......
I have lived in several countries...not just "visiting" for a year or so, but at least half dozen years in each....more time in the Philippines, Thailand and Vietnam. In each of those countries I also ran a business much as Luc. I paid my workers well above the local wages...several times the comparable local wages. I trained the folks that worked for me, and I paid myself commensurate with what my equivalent wages would be if the company was a U.S. company. I provided health care for employees which under their own system was non existant. I worked for a "U.S. Company" and received U.S. wages.....most of what went into savings...I lived on my local earnings. In the Philippines the national average at the time was the equivalent of $20 a month, and a head of household could support his family on that.....he could not purchase a car....but autos were an extreme luxury at the time..........I paid my people more than that per week, and when someone was ill, especially children, they went to the hospital and I paid for it........pretty much the same in Thailand and Vietnam.....In all countries I owned a motor vehicle, and in the Philippines an airplane or two at any given time but primarily for business.
When in Vietnam...I started to build a new dink for the boat.....I purchased the marine ply, imported the resins etc through the APO mail and began cutting wood......My Mother in law just about had a stroke....I was stopped...not allowed to dirty my hands...cut wood...paint or epoxy......it was politely explained to me that as an educated person it was my responsibility to support those less fortunate....I had to hire an old carpenter...and then a person to help translate, then I supervised....the dink got built, three people fed their families....I did not live like a filthy rich anyone....I lived in a similar house as any well kept residence, I had someone to drive my vehicle, clean house, trim the bushes, and try to teach those without a higher education....it's a matter of choice.....and yes...the standards of living in the U.S. are far beyond the reach of most of the world.....and Americans are not willing to "downsize"......
Luc, I'm Sure, would prefer to be where he is, and is probably most happy......I would be there too, except I'd be dead in 120 days because of the lack of medical facilities......which is a definite advantage in the U.S........and Luc..I salute you..

[pcford]

The main difference is that today's boatbuilder has been convinced he can't live without that 50" plasma TV, or whatever the trinket of the moment may be, and as a result he spends more time lamenting his lot than he does counting his blessings.
I agree with much of what you said. However, I don't spend a lot of time lamenting my lot. I have done time in cube farms and I know the difference. As they said in the Godfather, "It is the life I have chosen."

With that said, the worst thing about my job are the bad clients. I have not run into any in the last ten years or so. Well maybe one. (Knock on wood.) One does get a "spidey sense" about bad risk clients after a while. One of the first things you learn is that it is important to know which jobs to turn down.

Good topic. I have to go do a video job now. Will post more later.

[Hughman]

With that said, the worst thing about my job are the bad clients.

I had a conversation today regarding a contractor who will likely lose his shirt building a megahouse for an inheritor of a huge fortune who likes to "beat" his contractors. He is so wealthy he is effectivly above the law- it would take so much effort to collect it would corrode one's life in the process. This guy takes his satisfaction in destroying people with his money.

This is an extreme example of a tactic that seems common in business dealings with the privileged around here, according to an unscientific survey of "barroom commiserations".

It's enough to make a guy git ugly....so be careful who you work for.

[paladin]

I dunno like to say negative things about folks in general....but therein lies a sorepoint......worst clients......
When I lived in S.E.A. and worked....by means of assignments we would work for 6 months in Vietnam, have two weeks off with base pay....then 6 more months and 30 days off.....or 6 months Vietnam, 6 months Thailand..etc.....
My schedule was such that the business was run on the side..plus I trained my guys very well......
One such trip was in the mid 60's when some unknown weenie by the name of Ferdie Marcos was campaining for pres of the Philippines. He negotiated for and bought John Kennedy's old Aero Commander and a friend and I contracted to ferry it from the U.S. to the Philippines...
Marcos won and Lopez became Vice Prez...Mr. Lopez owned a Beech travel Aire...sorta Beech bonanza with two engines...
Periodically Mr. Lopez would call or send someone over and very politely ask us to completely check out all his systems....which we did...after a while he just left the key with us and told me if I needed to use the plane to do so, just let his secretary know so that he wouldn't schedule it's use.....I used it once in 2 years.......and never sent him a bill for any work...
Marcos had all kinds of problems...the largest being that his pilot was an idiot...big ego...would land on the main runway at Manila International so he wouldn't have to walk a quarter of a mile to the hangar, disrupting traffic, complaining about the radios constantly when he tuned them off channel (Manila only had 3-4 frequencies at the time and this idiot like to twiddle the dials on a 360 channel radio) and despite all the work we did, never were paid anything....but I got even in the end.
On the other end of the scale when we did work in Thailand, we rarely sent a bill. A representative came to check out the aircraft and went straight to the office to insure prompt payment, without asking...
Vietnam was like marcos.....but when I left...I left with a senators new Bell 206.....

[Dave Fleming]

I wish to clarify my statement about how much I was earning per hour in 1989.

The scale for shipwrights down here was about $13.00 per hour, Gross.

I was making $35 per hour, Gross.

The reason I was making such a high wage, I was actually doing ( 3 ) jobs almost simutaniously.

1.Lofting, really translation, in that I was taking 1/10th scale CAD drawings ( recall the old Digital Computers?), lofting full scale on loft floor and making patterns and tempales for the fitters and cutters out in the field.

2. Giving classes to new hires who didn't know port from starboard. Those folks would have been hired to work as Jr. fitters, Jr. Burners all sorts of metal fabricating. They had to have at least some working knowledge of plans,patterns, lofting, layout before they could be turned out into the yard.

3.Joinerwork Estimating. The Joinerwork Supervisor was a very sharp fellow, he was from the Azores. A great hands on shipwright/loftsman/joiner but, just could not grasp the rapid change in the work nor speak clearly to the Engineering Dept.. I had worked for him before in 1982/3 and we got along pretty well even though I was not 'from the Islands'.:D It was he who suggested to the 'shirts' that I be made Joiner Estimator.

I saw this as my 'golden opportunity' to make a few dollars more than what I would have made at any one of the above mentioned jobs.
So I negotiated with the 'shirts' and, we settled on $35 per hour.

The most I had ever made prior to that was when I was yard foreman for a small 'tomato patch' Aluminum yard not too far south of Campbells.
My hourly wage there was $25 per hour. I worked my 'arse' off running that place! I had 89 people to supervise. Loftsman, Joiners, Carpenters, AL. cutters, fitters, welders ( and don't let a person fool you saying "if you can weld steel, you can weld Al." 't'aint so McGee).Painters, Outside Machinists, Shop Machinists.
I was opening the gate at 6:AM and locking up at 7:PM 5 days a week and closing at 5:PM on Saturdays.
Long hard hours for 3 years until the princiapal partner decided it was too much work...Work, hell he was never there! He would be off big game hunting or sportfishing on one of the fleet of charter boats he owned.
Boats that we had built by the way.


Luc, those hourly wages are GROSS earnings. By the time Uncle Sam and the great state of California have finished dipping into yer wallet. A big chunk of that $35.00 is gone.

Living costs at that time? Lets say off the top of my bald haid, Housing $1,500 per month, Utilities ie: Gas, Water, Electricity, Sewer. $250-300 per month, depending upon the season.
Food, Wine, Rum, $1200 per month.
Plus the cost of keeping (2 ) motor vehicles, gas, insurance, tires, mechanical upkeep etc.. I'm guessin' $300 per month

Reason I am doing a lot of guestimating here is because SWIMPAL has been handling the finances since we were married, oh so loooong ago.;)
I only have a passing knowledge of just what it costs to the nickle to keep us afloat.

Back to wages. I would say that the majority of the yard personel were making just scale with few exceptions.
So, out of a total of 2200 workers perhaps less than 5% were making above scale and that could be anywhere from 25 cents to a $1 per hour over.

I was chatting with the 'independent' yacht carpenter around the corner from me about this wage thing. He is one of the few I would recommend on this waterfront.
He commented that, when he estimates a job, he just doesn't figure the hours to complete but, also the difficulity of the job and the ***attitude*** of the boat owner.
He won't turn down a job. For good reason too. He doesn't want negative word of mouth to start spreading amongst the close knit yacht owners around Shelter Island. He takes the job at his price and bites his tongue rather than tell the owner what for.

He is busy 6 days a week with one helper. He doesn't want any more help. He said he tried about 20 people over the course of several years before he found this one fellow whom he could depend on.

I recall when I began, I was all red hot to start work at a new build yard.
The Union Rep. told me that it would be better to start at a B&R yard to find out how things were made and how to fix them, the right way.

He was right.

[Wild Wassa]

No longer using my professional skills ... out of hours for some.

There have been two old boats recently that I have crewed on and wanting to be a good crewman (as one does), I pulled my weight with the overdue maintenance on both boats.

So much so, that after I'd worked for many days on the boats (like for several weeks in fact) bringing them up to a top racing finish and doing several overdue modifications to the yachts, the Skippers after seeing their boats in top shape and having them both perform well immediately sold their boats at the end of Championships.

Skippers need good competent crew who can help with the maintenance (always) ... I put it down to both Skippers not realizing that this has actually happened.

One new boat that I'm now on, the Skipper said to me after the last race, we should get in and fair this hull to improve the performance and replace some fittings when are you free and you are welcome on my boat any time. To which I replied, 'you book the hoist, and my day rate will be ....' . Twice bitten recently, I know my worth and it isn't for Skippers to just expect it. Nor was only a week of racing in each of the two boats above, adequate compensation for this boat worker.

Many racing boats are totally crew dependent ... but the Skippers are even more crew dependent. Boat workers don't ever under sell yourself ... it isn't good for the industry.

"Workers should not under sell themselves," I'll remember my words, as I hand my fee to a yacht owner tomorrow, who has been taking time out from working alongside me this week, to check the market fluctuations.

The correct compensation for a boat worker, is the value we put on ourselves ... which is also the value others put on us.

Warren.

[paladin]

I also learned the hard way.....a couple of times took on crew for different ports in the South Pacific...just general crew and watch, and for cleaning duties, varnish etc....in return I supplied boat, quarters food etc......one lady, a former cruise ship "activities director"....felt that all she had to do was show up in a bikini and lay about on deck....another young man, son of a former employer in S.E.A. stood two watches and suddenly couldn't see at night, couldn't cook and was more interested in the reason I had the likker locker locked...

[Cullen T.M. McGough]

Nostalgia isn't what it used to be. Back in the "good old days," boatbuilders made piss, just as they do today. The main difference is that today's boatbuilder has been convinced he can't live without that 50" plasma TV, or whatever the trinket of the moment may be, and as a result he spends more time lamenting his lot than he does counting his blessings.

Ho ho ho! You must be speaking of the shop owners. The actual yard dogs generally dream wistfully of retirement plans, dental care, health insurance and (just maybe) a house and family one day. A house far, far, far from the over-priced waterfront real estate he works on.

Perhaps rising waters of the property/population booms in the west are still floating all ships, but out here in New England, the middle class is dying. You can join the white-collared executive class and make your nut by outsourcing jobs to some 3rd-world country where labor and environment laws are lax, or you can fold t-shirts at the Gap for bored teenagers whose ridiculous spending habits are fueled by absentee parents (see above), hyper-inflated real estate prices, and endless credit cards (the average american family had $9,000 in credit card debt in 2006) all backed up by bizzaro-world financing schemes (anyone notice China has passed $1 trillion in foreign currency reserves, or that this year's U.S. trade deficit topped $700 billion?).

The fact is, when we talk about Cost vs. Value for boatworkers (or almost any non-service sector or executive position) historical pricing doesn't mean anything. The reality of today is instant communications, trans-global shipping and Capital Investment that makes the great pyramids look like a dinky public works project.

The wonder that any of us on this forum can (marginally) make a living doing boat work has more to do with the human desire for a face-to-face deal, than it does to do with economics.

Go ahead, wander around your house, flipping crap over. See where it was made. Track down the parts in your favorite power tools. How many factories are there in your town that actually make things? How far do you live from the nearest working farm? Ask yourself if that 50" plasma screen T.V., or that tupperware, or that cell phone was worth the trade imbalance with China, that financed the factory, that required the additional power station, that necessitated the Yangtze hydro project, that killed off the last albino dolphin.

And don't think that slapping on a R/W/B bumper sticker (also made overseas) or proudly grinding your back teeth while you snarl "I buy American" at other people, makes a difference. It doesn't matter. The larger economic fundamentals have changed. Profoundly.

Those of us who believe in Building. Things. Well. have a new choice: we can stand for economic equality and trade the value of our labor for a fair amount of someone else's labor; or we can can sink back into the couch and watch the bright, shiny, happy, noise come out of our plasma t.v. sets.

America is awesome, for many reasons. Two of the best are:

No-money-down [insert junk here] payments
and
We have successfully exported our lower class to other countries (except for those pesky gardeners and dishwashers, but we're working on tagging them with radio collars. Hi Habero!)

And as long as I'm on a consumerism rant: other than those of you building a hobby project out of sheer love, who here builds working boats? Boats that provide a return on investment to the person or community they exist in? Most of these "yachts" are monstrous sink-holes of conspicuous consumption.

Yeah, it's fun to read the old books about explorers and whalers and trans-oceanic cargo shipping. But that's not what most of these are, that's not what most of these do. Most of them are endangered-specie-covered tributes to poor taste, that sit in the marina for 10 months of the year.

If we're going to point fingers, I'll be the first in line. I use the teaks, the mahoganies, the rare hardwoods. I use the paints and preservatives with dubious environment impact. I (mostly) uncomplainingly install bulkheads made of marine-grade plywood that not only cost more per-sheet than I make in a day, but also (insultingly) is insured by Lloyd's of London, even as I can't afford health or dental.

And I'm the lucky one! I'm american! I can quit, if I want, and go get that McJob or shuffle paperwork around. Or at least follow the time-honored tradition of falling off some scaffolding to collect worker's comp.

What I can't do is lie about the damage I am knowingly doing to this planet and the people who live on it.

-Cullen

(There, I'm done. I'm off to root around In my 1500sq/ft kitchen to see if there are any non-dairy cheese snacks in a delightfully whimsical 4-color polypropylene "snak-pac", such that it will temper my ire.)

[paladin]

well.....I may not be working on the hull and decks......but I'm working on an electrical system to make me independent of a plug in power source.......next step is a reverse osmosis water machine....then a new high seas HF ssb system with a new digital modulator system....soon I'll have everything but the hull......and by then I'll either have a new kidney or will be on my own dialysis machine nightly, using my own water generating plant....so I can get the crap outta here....

[pcford]

I had a conversation today regarding a contractor who will likely lose his shirt building a megahouse for an inheritor of a huge fortune who likes to "beat" his contractors. He is so wealthy he is effectivly above the law- it would take so much effort to collect it would corrode one's life in the process. This guy takes his satisfaction in destroying people with his money.



There was a guy that was notorious about Lake Union here in Seattle. The guy had a huge house on Lake Washington. Colonial house with the requisite columns, on about 2 acres of perfect waterfront property.

The guys MO would be to be cooperative in the beginning and then stiff you you for the final payment/2nd half. There was a hippy guy that he hired to build a boat for his yacht. He put half down and stiffed him for the 2nd half.

Well, the guy's name got around the lake. He brought his boat in for work. Again, the guy was cooperative, paid first bills. The time came for the boat to go back in the water. The guy breezed in, wanting to take his boat. The yard owner, as the guy's reputation had preceded him, told the owner that his boat would go back in the water when he paid his bill. The owner said that he did not have his checkbook with him "just then" and needed to pick up some guests for a 4th of July party. The owner replied...no cash...no splash. Guy got hoppin' mad but paid his bill.

[Nanoose]

'No cash, no splash' is all there is here. Didn't know there was any other way to do it! Kind of silly for a business man to operate any other way.

[pcford]

'No cash, no splash' is all there is here. Didn't know there was any other way to do it! Kind of silly for a business man to operate any other way.

It is the customary method here as well. But slippery dudes will try to hustle you.

[B_B]

There was a guy that was notorious about Lake Union here in Seattle. The guy had a huge house on Lake Washington. Colonial house with the requisite columns, on about 2 acres of perfect waterfront property.

The guys MO would be to be cooperative in the beginning and then stiff you you for the final payment/2nd half. There was a hippy guy that he hired to build a boat for his yacht. He put half down and stiffed him for the 2nd half.

Well, the guy's name got around the lake. He brought his boat in for work. Again, the guy was cooperative, paid first bills. The time came for the boat to go back in the water. The guy breezed in, wanting to take his boat. The yard owner, as the guy's reputation had preceded him, told the owner that his boat would go back in the water when he paid his bill. The owner said that he did not have his checkbook with him "just then" and needed to pick up some guests for a 4th of July party. The owner replied...no cash...no splash. Guy got hoppin' mad but paid his bill.

I volunteered at a music festival, nominally non-profit but run like a private fiefdom by this one guy. Anyways, one year he stiffed a moving company - Sam's Piano Moving let's say - out of some $ so the next year they were a little leery of doing business with him.

So he went to another company. "Sure, no problem, cash up front".

On the day they needed a baby grand at a particular place the piano wasn't there. The jerkguy calls, rants raves and so forth. No reply. 5:00 pm sharp (after all piano rental places closed for the day) his call gets returned.

"Sam's standing outside your office door. Sooner he gets paid, sooner you get your piano."

Sam got paid in time for a VERY late sound check... :D

[djswan]

Anyone think you should be debating this stuff at a Boatwright's Guild conference? I would love to go to the first one. Where do I join? Derek

[pcford]

Anyone think you should be debating this stuff at a Boatwright's Guild conference? I would love to go to the first one. Where do I join? Derek

As far as I can tell, there is no real debate.

At some point on this thread, I would like to offer some suggestions on boatwright/client relations...how to keep everybody happy.

[djswan]

The topic is "Value of a Shipwright", There is no one answer, that leaves it open for debate. I'm working in my craft to answer the question: What is the vaue of a timber framer?

If a bunch of shipwright's got togther for the sole and soul purpose of answering the question "Value of a Shipwright" there would be no debate.

A craftsman. Derek

[Wild Wassa]

"Didn't know there was any other way to do it! "

I take the rudder off the boat, a shipwright taught me this. He said it was a failsafe guarantee against difficult clients.

There is a type of owner that is easy to identify. When I'm discussing the boat, and I hear the clients say stuff like, "I don't get out of bed for under 3,000 a day," (this comment rings the warning bells especially) or "this will not take you long to do" or "it's an easy job to do," The rudder will come off the boat. With the "easy jobs," I recommend the owners do them, as I'm busy. Then as if by magic, it is no longer an easy job to the owner.

It isn't that losing a rudder might only be a grand or two, to an owner, it is that it can take a year or more to replace the rudder. Many things don't come off the shelf.

This is a very simple way to guarantee payment.

Warren.

[Bob Cleek]

Bottom line, "It's the economy, stupid!" Here on SF Bay, we have a herring fishery. It's seasonal and there are strict limits on the catch. Licenses are drawn by lot, odd and even fishing days and all that. It's like the Oklahoma Land Rush out there. The gun goes off and the fishing boats take off to haul and land as much as they can until the quota is met and the closing bell rings. The profits are huge, Japan wants the roe for sushi and the rest goes to the fertilizer plants.

Now, when the herring season starts, a diver can just about demand and get ANY price to go down and cut a net off a prop. Same for the yards. You want it WHEN? Ha, ha, ha! Unless, of course, you are willing to pay the premium.

Why? Because every minute off the fishing grounds is big money lost. That makes the boatyard worker's services worth a whole lot more. Supply and demand. Simple as that.

Considering Paladin's comments on keeping other folks' rice bowls filled, perhaps those amateurs of us who do our own boat work are taking food out of the boatyard workers' mouths? Perhaps, but I for one couldn't justify the cost of a boat any other way, so I don't feel like I'm taking anybody's rice bowl just yet.

[Hughman]

Keeping rice bowls filled is a whole 'nother ethic. It takes a village, and all that-the commercial society buys into the concept (I'm sure there are violators in Asia too)

In the US, where the TV/radio news spends serious time talking about money, and the consumer is a hapless target, it's "git it when you can" ....I think that's what the latin motto on the Maine state flag says anyway.....


I know exceptions to this, of course. Private employers have taken pride in keeping their community fed, because they know a genuine compassion is good for business.

Because boatbuilders (and trophy homebuilders) are dealing with people who are buying ego toys, the concept of value is perverted.

[Lucky Luke]

GEEEE!!!!! Mike, you got me soooo WRONG! ...once more! Please be less sensitive about what anyone says about the US, and just admit - not too difficult: needs an ounce of tolerance - that some critics may, sometimes, be adressed.
And, on top of that, please look at my post not as a blind critic (although it does contain some) but as a WARNING. I just say: wake up! And that warning is not only to US citizens, but adressed to Europe as well :read, just read!

Then sorry people for undeniably hijacking this thread - was not my purpose originally - but I have to comment some of Mike, alias Erster.


Really? Then he should go back and enjoy France. Why did he seek out another country only to be in a situation that owning your own land is non-existant as a professional person.

I am happy there. I love the Vietnamese people, feel home here: what s wrong?


In his contribution addressing the U.S., using his own post, he feels that the most basic form of security of homeownership to be a luxuary, since we all know that a certain income level is required to achieve this, and maintain the most simply form of expression.

US and Europe I said!
Here, everybody: my staff, myself, wife and kid dream of having our own house. For a young couple, both of higher education and both working, it is possible to save for a good ten years and buy a very small plot of land and have a basic house built. No bank loans! Happily, we live here in family, all together. So, most people have a roof. They just don t have 400m for a couple: that is luxury...worldwide.



Without continuing to hyjack this thread further, in his country, and that part of the world, many fine craftmen have built many boats of virgin woods, old growth, raping their lands. Now that part of the world is resorting to building absolute junk, sending the stuff back to the U.S. and then complain on this thread addressing fare wages for a dieing breed of craftmen, that the U.S is living above their standards and enjoying too much money while taking every avaliable american dollar these lands can get their hands on.

Whose fault? Who buys ?


Yes I personally take issue especially since the state of North Carolina is on the receiving end of job losses seeking their cheap labor offered in Vietnam. The job losses also came at the expense of skilled workers in the furniture industry that also were afforded home ownership for several generations. I am dead on when addressing the issue that is he actually better off at the expense of the American skilled craftsman and in return attack the U.S. as living above the standard that Vietnam is exhibiting now..

What??? I am better off at the expense of American craftsmen???? Have a nice cup of tea and relax, Mike. OK?


He gladly accepts the American Dollar from the American worker that is living above their means in comparison to Vietnam See any hypocricy in the notion that America should do without? Ever consider the loss of income in Vietnam while American workers are cut down to size? Its nice to continue to condemn America, and yes at the expense of skilled shipwights, yes something that has certain jobs that cannot be reproduced by a stupid computer. Later


Yes, I gladly accept US$ , but from millionaires.
Yes, many Americans are living with an American standard that is actually above their means. And many, perhaps many more, are well below that standard. And many more to come!!!
That is what I am saying in this post: the Western world, US and EU alike, are not capable/ ready/ conscient of the competition that is coming up.
Can t see what the computers have got to do in that discussion???

[pcford]

That is what I am saying in this post: the Western world, US and EU alike, are not capable/ ready/ conscient of the competition that is coming up.


You may be right. But why does it seem like a race to the bottom?

[Lucky Luke]

Erster, I think you may have Luc wrong. He provides high tech jobs in a country that I think he enjoys living in, he pays himself 3 times more than his workers, I'm guessing that he pays the prevailing wage or better in his Vietnam..

Thank you Hwyl. A few remarks though:
1- I do not provide high tech jobs: they already know their stuff and have the equipment. What I do is to teach what yachting is, big and small, just a sense for some aesthetics which are new to them. All what is exported from VN, then, is virtual: not the smallest bit of wood, or any other resource: just brain work.
2- I pay myself - or more accurately am left with - about twice what my staff gets: 650 x 2. Of course, they are at the upper end of the salaries, and I not only respect them, but take all the care I can.


I still think Lucky Luke should be building schooners here in Maine.
:) I can hardly imagine anything I would love more:)

[Lucky Luke]

You may be right. But why does it seem like a race to the bottom?
It is the race UPWARDS that is the danger, pcford.
Fifteen years ago, you had a job finding a computer here. Today, the Vietnamese earn prices for the programs they write. We develop our own software here. At Monaco mega-yacht boat show, I saw only very few works of the quality we do here. Most was plain bad!
But while also called develloping countries are going upwards, the high standard of some others becomes unsustainable. I will re-equilibrate, sure. Trouble is that this world is too crowded for everybody to live to American Standard.
Consequence is: this high standard WILL go down. And it will be reasonably good for everyone.... provided we have not wasted too much uselessly in the meantime.

[q240z]

I've met my share of tightwad uber-rich so I can sympathize with shipwrights who get stiffed or whose customers expect top quality work for no money. On the other hand, I'm new to this whole wooden yacht thing but have always been into restoring old stuff. Not being rich, I was absolutely flabbergasted at the cost of hauling out, bottom painting (single coat), and replacing zincs and one 6' section of plank at the waterline -- $4,500. The yard refused to even ballpark the cost beyond the basic haulout and splash, which was *only* $500. The boat had to have the bottom surveyed to get insurance, so I figured it would be best to kill two birds with one stone. What an expensive education that was.

I'm willing to pay a fair price for good work, but it seems to me that I was robbed. Sure, the yard has an excellent reputation. Sure, the boat was back in the water within two days. But I paid hugely for mostly grunt labor. They volunteered to repaint the bootstripe for an additional $1,000, but I declined.

So, I learned the hard way that yards charge shipwright rates for unskilled work. From now on, I'm shopping for yards that allow me to do my own work and I'll gladly hire a shipwright when I need somebody with skills that I don't possess. I'll also work right there next to them in the hopes of absorbing some of their skills in the process.

It seems to me that robber baron yard owners and the tightwad uber-rich deserve each other.

[carioca1232001]

"It seems to me that robber baron yard owners and the tightwad uber-rich deserve each other."

What you experienced is not unique nor restricted by geographical constraints.

Can get a lot worse when you are out of your home port or marina and they make out that you are in a hurry to set sail again.

[carioca1232001]

Lucky Luke wrote:

"Fifteen years ago, you had a job finding a computer here. Today, the Vietnamese earn prices for the programs they write. We develop our own software here. At Monaco mega-yacht boat show, I saw only very few works of the quality we do here. Most was plain bad!
But while also called develloping countries are going upwards, the high standard of some others becomes unsustainable"

The media concentrate primarily on reporting the economic upsurge of China and India, more so the former.

Our prestigious TV channel (Globo) pointed out recently the phenomenal strides being made by Vietnam, both in terms of the development of intellectual capital as well as the production of goods.....

[Chan]

q240z
You live in DC, you own a 52' wooden yacht, probably costs $500 to take out for a 2 hr. cruise.
What are you complaining about?? Not uber rich? What does that mean? Not making quite a million a year?
Pay em for the work and quit bitchin!
Want to do it yourself? Do it! Quit bitchin!
Seems you have a problem with skilled workers trying to make 40 or 50 thousand a year, probably what you pay for a car.

[Lew Barrett]

No bone to pick here, just how I find it works.
These days I do almost all my own finish work and my own finish carpentry, and because so much work has been done on my boat already, there's just not as much heavy lifting around my place to do right now. No denying, digging into an old wooden boat is always an invitation to spend more money. One problem I think owners can have is that work never seems to proceed on a steady basis. Things come together quickly at the end, but sometimes it can be hard to see the seemingly halting progress from day to day. As just one example, owners forget that every screw, every piece of wood and every part needs to be sourced and accounted for, and that can eat a lot of time without providing much in the way of visible progress. That sort of issue makes it seem like not much is happening, when in fact, things are in motion.
About doing as much as I can myself: I just can't see any other way to have it work out the way I want, and I like working on my own boat anyway. On the other hand I can't do bottom work anymore, and have never been able to do it properly alone. I was never terribly efficient at it anyway, and being slow and uncertain, I can't physically get enough done not to hurt the boat in the time I have in any case. One plank here and there, maybe, but at that point, it's more efficient too bring someone in for a day or two. Any more than that, and I'm not up to it. Shipwrights: rejoice!
I can spile and hang planks, have been part of planking crews, but when the time came to do our bottom, I hired it out because that was the way to get the best job, and I knew it. Caulking has always been a hired out job for me in any case. It was hard to write the checks, but it would have been harder to do it myself. She'd still be on the hard. That's the way it is.

Mostly, people seem to like working with me, and I am always encouraged to do what I want to do around the job; even asked to frequently enough. I'll usually ask for a ballpark figure on work, and make mental note of that. I have never asked anybody to work on a "quote" basis alone, quite frankly because most of the people I have had experience working with won't do it that way anyway. I did hire a guy to do a straight up job for me based on a maximum figure he quoted when asked what he thought the bottom line might be, and when he exceeded that by threefold, I paid him and figured I'd learned a valuable lesson; but it was only a lesson about him. As we had agreed on time and materials beforehand, I wasn't in any position to bargain, but it stung nonetheless. The scope of work never changed, just the bill.
Most of the people I have worked with over the years have been talented, hardworking individuals and it would pain me to think that someone who worked for me and did a good job lost money because I believe in a day's pay for a day's work. When I hire people on it's almost always on a time and materials basis because that's how people seem to work around here, at least the good ones. The going rate for a guy who shows up at the dock with his own tools seems to be about $45/hr. in Seattle. Refinishers seem to work for a bit less.
I work for free, but then, it's my boat.