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ishmael
01-12-2007, 07:23 PM
He's just the most skilled of the shrinks who make it incredibly public. I follow him because I'm interested in this. But isn't it ew, I don't want that public? Isn't it? disconcerting that a skilled pyscodynamic psychologist is putting it public. Strange way the psyche works.

Tom Montgomery
01-12-2007, 07:38 PM
I remember years ago asking my psychotherapist, "Deanna, how did you get so smart?" She just laughed like hell.

Memphis Mike
01-12-2007, 07:38 PM
Are you going to a meeting tonight, Jack? I am.

Tom Montgomery
01-12-2007, 07:39 PM
Me too.

Katherine
01-12-2007, 07:50 PM
The maudlin marauder strikes again.:rolleyes:

ishmael
01-12-2007, 08:00 PM
I've got him blasting as we talk. What does it take to get on the Phil show? I couldn't, though I'm as interesting as the fat, the infidelitous, the violent.

Weird cultural phenomenon. I wouldn't talk about that stuff on a talk show for love nor money.

Mike, I'm still trying. I want to be sober, and will keep going.

glenallen
01-12-2007, 08:35 PM
I've got him blasting as we talk. What does it take to get on the Phil show? I couldn't, though I'm as interesting as the fat, the infidelitous, the violent.

Weird cultural phenomenon. I wouldn't talk about that stuff on a talk show for love nor money.

Mike, I'm still trying. I want to be sober, and will keep going.

If you're watching Dr. Phil and whatever other crap interests you on TV, you're not trying hard enough.
Don't make a bunch of us come up there!

ishmael
01-12-2007, 08:50 PM
Well, to come back, if you aren't paying attention to Phil you're missing it.

I don't like it, I think it a bit mad, but Phil is the America of today.

He's actually okay. But too public.

glenallen
01-12-2007, 09:03 PM
I've seen Phil and have nothing against him.
But I don't have much time for him because unlike him and his guests (patients?) I have an active, wholesome, sober, rewarding, gratifying, optimistic life.
Get one for yourself and we'll all be happy. Best of luck to you. I know it ain't easy, but as someone said above, it is simple.

Wild Wassa
01-12-2007, 09:11 PM
If you went to see him as client you would come away thinking that the man has not listened to me at all.

People should be arriving at their own decisions. Making their own choices and gaining an understanding of themselves and others through the guidance, assistance and support of a counsellor. Being told didactically what to do doesn't last, or at the very most it might last for five minutes.

If he brings about any change at all in people, it is most likely because of their TV experience not something that he has done. There is no genius there in Dr Phill. He just has the gift of the gab and cashes in on his celebrity status.

If you listen to what he is saying he is only talking common sense, there is no unique psychological skill operating or being rendered.

Maybe he knows the American Psyche ... but so do the Iraqis.

Warren.

glenallen
01-13-2007, 09:30 PM
"Maybe he knows the American Psyche...but so do the Iraqis."

Anyone who knows Pavlov's Dogs knows the American Psyche.

Gary E
01-13-2007, 10:37 PM
Why would anyone go on his TV show and not only be subject to his critisism but to show the TV audience world too?

Idiots..

glenallen
01-13-2007, 10:45 PM
I only hope it's somehow therapeutic in some way that I just don't understand.

Chris Coose
01-14-2007, 07:52 AM
People feel better when they get to watch somebody else's ass get kicked.
Lots better.
Good enough to buy the products advertized in between the vicarious ass kicking.

I don't know what it'd take to get me to buy products I'd seen on TV.

Paul Pless
01-14-2007, 08:32 AM
I don't know what it'd take to get me to buy products I'd seen on TV.

A good ass-whoopin perhaps?;)

Chris Coose
01-14-2007, 08:41 AM
Characters like Sweringen on Deadwood or Christopher on the Sopranos are far more authentic that Dr. Phil and they come without the ads.
There is a premium that I will pay for that entertainment.;)

Wild Dingo
01-14-2007, 09:32 AM
As a counsellor for some years when I first saw Dr Phil I cringed... and thought strewth hes a friggin total friggin moronic mongrel idiot doin more harm to these people than good... then I thought okay I will give his style of in your face reverse pychobabble a run... so I did... talk about bloody miserable failures!! AND I almost got the sack for doing so!... In life (that is off the stage with no cameras in your dial) NO ONE likes someone TELLING them what they HAVE to do!! NO ONE likes to be made to cry in public NO ONE likes to be insulted or denigrated... NO ONE! and even if they pretended they did it would only last till they found your boss or saw a lawyer to sue the hell out of you... so Dr Phil has to have the best legal indemnity contracts for those "clients" of his... EVER!

Hes a jumped up wombat! and no I dont like him his show or the way he "counsels" his so called "clients"

Hes a bloody disgrace... but so long as the "adoring" public ala Jack and othere continue to watch his stupid show and buy the products so he will continue to be feted and given the status of all knowing all seeing all helping Dr Phil the bloody dill

Go to the meeting Jack!! Theres WAY WAY MORE help there than Dr bloody Phil can ever offer you through a bloody idiot box screen! :mad:

Chris Coose
01-14-2007, 09:45 AM
I lead an intervention yesterday. It is the riskiest element of my practice (and let me tell you I read over my insurance policy very carefully).
Motivation is key.
Now, getting this person to take the prescription can be done with a sledge hammer or love and care.
How do you think we got this guy on a plane to long term treatment yesterday afternoon?

Paul Pless
01-14-2007, 09:53 AM
How do you think we got this guy on a plane to long term treatment yesterday afternoon?

Bribed him with his drug of choice.

ishmael
01-14-2007, 10:02 AM
My cousin, Ann, and her husband, Dana, went to Dr. Phil before he was Dr. Phil. He was skilled, saw right into the dynamic, but didn't save the marraige. I don't watch him regularly, but I do find the need to put this before the public, the financial success of such, a bit odd.

My guess is that people are terribly hungry for feedback around their problems. As Chris and others say, when you've got someone worse off than you, it's encouraging. These people made it, are making it, so it must not be so bad.

We want to be loved. Not in mushy ways, in Dr. Phil ways. It's still a bit icky.

huisjen
01-14-2007, 10:15 AM
You can tell the answer to the meeting question pretty easy.
Jack is avoiding answering. He avoids answering uncomfortable questions.
He's not going to meetings. His writing indicates that he's not sober.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again, Jack.

Dan

Paul Pless
01-14-2007, 10:26 AM
actually he did answer the question right here
Mike, I'm still trying. I want to be sober, and will keep going.

I know its not easy, I don't think criticism of an addict works or helps anyone, not the addict nor those associated with one. The best one can do is offer support, understanding, and if possible their experience, strength, and hope.

I wish Jack luck with this and hope that he gets what he needs.

huisjen
01-14-2007, 10:31 AM
Sorry then.

Someone commented about this a week or so ago. When they got sober they changed a lot of habits, so as not to fall into the same old traps. Jack's old drinking buddies are Phil and Oprah.

Jack, I wish you health and sobriety. Good luck to you on all of that.

Dan

ishmael
01-14-2007, 10:53 AM
Well, people find this interesting enough to post to it. That's most of what a writer hopes for.

One thing I realised Dan, when we were in our weird child molestation tiff, was that here was a man wounded in very specific ways. I really resent what you did with the campaign for people to call the local police and accuse me of child molesting, but I came to understand it, It think.

You've said you grew up in a cult. That must have been terribly abusive, psychologically, if not physically. It's abusive like you can't talk out. You need to be held, and cry. So it's understandable my musing on humans would set you off.

I'm a sympathetic ear. I came of age in a household that didn't know how to raise a kid. They got drunk on weekends, raised the roof, and I got ignored so long as I was compliant.

The ear is there.

My best to you in all your endeavors. But mind your mouth.

Jack

Phil Heffernan
01-14-2007, 10:54 AM
I lead an intervention yesterday. It is the riskiest element of my practice (and let me tell you I read over my insurance policy very carefully).
Motivation is key.
Now, getting this person to take the prescription can be done with a sledge hammer or love and care.
How do you think we got this guy on a plane to long term treatment yesterday afternoon?

I give up.

How DID you get him on the plane?

Really curious as to how you deal with adults in so deep as to require an 'intervention'...

PH

geeman
01-14-2007, 11:34 AM
Wife and I went for counceling years ago.I refused to go back due to the fact that EVERYTHING out of my wife's mouth he agreed with, making me the only bad guy there.He wouldnt even consider my points of view,blew me off each time I tried to make a point.I'll NEVER subject myself to that kind of abuse, (and thats what it was) again.

Wild Dingo
01-14-2007, 12:09 PM
See now I dont know about over there but when I was counselling you wouldnt have been seen together till after probably the second or third session that each of you had on your own... just too much garbage and baggage to wade through if you try to be objective at an initial session with both people going hammer and tongs... or even if only one is the other doesnt get a word in edgewise... so first 2 or 3 were individual and independant of each other that gives the counsellor a chance to assess each party without the other being present... points can be clarified at the second and or the third depending then when seeing the opposite partner they can feel a lot more comfortable without their partner being there... then bring them together and lead them into talking together to try to resolve if possible the problems and issues as a couple... hell a counsellor isnt meant to resolve peoples problems for them but to help (guide if you like) them to see the answers and resolve them for themselves!... a counsellor should never listen to only one partners story and not the others and hence why the individual sessions to begin with... and judgement of one or both the partners is not their place!!

A counsellors role is to help guide and encourage their clients to actively seek to resolve their problems for themselves... its not to barrate denigrate abuse or castigate any client... its to help where possible and refer if not... sometimes its better all round to refer a client on to someone else if the client/s present with issues that the counsellor cant deal with (this can happen for various reasons) or are outside of the counsellors areas of expertize... and this is why counsellors should and must have good working networks of other providers in other areas of social, pyschological or medial areas along with educators law enforcement community members and groups etc... a counsellor should never work in isolation to other providers they fail their clients when they do.

Sometimes a counsellor will utilize methods that can take them into the family home this I found particularily useful when dealing with domestic violence suspected child abuse or other wherein one can over a period of time become "part of the household" and by attending at odd hours through the day gains a wider picture of the family dynamic than simply sitting in an office talking to one or both partners.

But I digress... sufficed to say I will reiterate... A counsellors role is to help guide and encourage their clients to actively seek to resolve their problems for themselves

The woman I had as a mentor when I began initially said to me "Shane as a counsellor your job with any client is to counsel yourself out of a job to help them achieve their goals and aims by listening, considering, offering options and knowledge along with clarity then allowing them to decide their choices and determining their way.. in other words your not doing anyone any favors by doing everything for them, and you are not god or anything special because your a counsellor you are a person just like they are but you are helping them to see a way out of their problems" she was one hell of a counsellor... and I guess I wasnt to bad at it either :rolleyes: Im actually considering returning to it since the mining is now officially over :(

As with all other forms of employment some counsellors should not be counsellors and geeman mate that sounds like someone who was in the wrong industry.

And as an afterthought... I just reread that above and I think that must be the way Im heading as my writings becoming almost sane and legible!! :eek:

ishmael
01-14-2007, 12:34 PM
What degree do you have, Shane? Not that it matters sometimes. As you say, no matter the degree the person can be lame.

I've got a friend who has a Phd in psy. He tried doing a private practice, but just wasn't cut the right way. A pretty insightful man, but all that shyte coming at him made him nervous. It also was boring pretty quick.

It's not an easy way to make a living. People think, well, you're just sitting and talking twenty times a week. But you are hearing the strangest stuff people can dream up and do, twenty times a week--trying to sort it out for them. There are formulae. The good ones move beyond them.

Gee,

Sounds like a lousy therapist. They exist in the same proportion as people lousy at any profession.

Tom Montgomery
01-14-2007, 03:50 PM
Who needs trained professionals? Shrink in a Box (http://www.dreamwv.com/shrink/shrink.html)

S/V Laura Ellen
01-14-2007, 06:58 PM
Dr. Phil is an entertainer not a therapist.
What Dr. Phil does is entertainment not therapy.

The guy is a quack, but and entertaining quack (based on his popularity).

Peter Malcolm Jardine
01-14-2007, 07:02 PM
Well, to come back, if you aren't paying attention to Phil you're missing it.

I don't like it, I think it a bit mad, but Phil is the America of today.

He's actually okay. But too public.


Jack, you've made vast portions of your private life available on this forum, isn't that public?:confused: :confused:

Wild Dingo
01-14-2007, 07:25 PM
Jack... I dont believe it matters a hell of a lot... but I have two a degree in social sciences and a degree in addictive behaviours got the degree in addictive behaviours first and worked as an addiction counsellor and greadually started counselling other problems it was then decided that I should get the degree in social sciences so that I and the company were covered "just in case" it was more a matter of getting recognition of prior learning and the caseload I had been working and then sitting an exam and whallah! one degree... and it wasnt long after that that I hit the wall smashed crashed and burnt out totally... and walked away :(

Now that the mining caper is over and Im considering my options yet again Ive realized that Ive increased the potential options by doing that... and am as I said considering returning to it... well along with doing another degree to get into Oc Health and Safety :rolleyes: Im also considering the option of getting into the training area, inductions, skills assessment etc but working from home or closer to home from here on maybe a short two days away occasionally if the moneys good enough ;)

But back to counsellor stuff... Jack some of the best counsellors are those you least expect and more often than not are those without any qualifications... why? cause they can bloody listen without judgement dont offer opinions and dont have any underlying agenda in helping you if they can... see I think that was one of my main bugbears with working for an agency the underlying factor was money and keeping clients on the books to milk the system for as long as possible... most that I worked for worked on an 18 month turnaround... some definantly required a fairly long period of counselling while others didnt and just a couple were all they needed but that wasnt the goal... the money came in installments over that 18 month period so the idea was to have them remain as clients for the full length of time no matter what!... Im damned if I can remember now the number of clients my offsider and I used to move on within the first few months because they didnt need or require anything more an occasional phone call to touch base was all... but I as the senior counsellor would cope it in the bum every time we "lost" a client early :mad: but then my boss bein a wonderful woman was awesome when she flew of the handle and I loved a good bunfight!! :D

Anyway Im still considering the option and havent as yet decided still have a few weeks maybe a couple of months before this bloody knees good enough to acutally go back to work so Im taking stock before I make the decision

And you make a good point mate
you are hearing the strangest stuff people can dream up and do, twenty times a week and it was mainly cause of that that I walked away well that and other things... but you know I dont care who you are if your a thinking caring person you will carry some of what you do home with you each day... yes you can defrag every day... yes theres ways of getting rid of it... but you know what? eventually it will slip through at home... Then theres the suicides the night callouts the phone calls at all hours the visits by police or parents of clients the clients who find your home number or address and come visiting the clients who spook your family at shopping centres an... yeah it wasnt easy... okay now I remember why I got out of the game someone bloody remind me why I got into it!! :rolleyes:

Cheers
Shane

ishmael
01-14-2007, 07:56 PM
Petey,

I've told my life pretty honestly. Not all the details, they belong in the night, when I talk with my soul. I'm not ashamed of them, at all, and we all need to talk more. The only thing I'm a bit ashamed of is being a drunk and therefore not more productive.


Shane,

Ya know I want the best for you. With your degrees, working with neurotics sounds better than going into the mines. Just a little observation. The mining is probably better money, but what a hard way.

I'm contemplating getting a degree at the MA level in counseling. I think I'm a native counselor, and could make a difference. I want to.

Wild Dingo
01-15-2007, 04:58 AM
Jack it was just that that made me go into the mines in the first place... I wanted NOT to HAVE to listen to people telling me their stories their pain their anguish EVERY FRIGGIN DAY!! To NOT HAVE TO go to the morgue to the sites to parents to console to have children come to me with serious major problems to not have to sit and listen through it to take on their pain and suffering which for the life of me I never worked out how to stop feeling even just a small amount of it... or even sadly to the funerals thats why I got out of it mate

Im not ashamed to say it hurt like hell mate... not just me in the end but Jo and the kids were hurt by it... so I got out

Now I took 3 months of didnt work a day we lived off the savings while I got my head free from the years of counselling just putzed around the shed doing this and that went fishing went diving went bush and generally got myself back together... then I started wondering what I was going to do with myself from that point on I didnt want responsibility I didnt want to HAVE to listen to other people if I didnt want to I wanted the choice! So what better thing could I have done than driving a truck on my own underground or surface... I could just get up in the morning have a feed take my time getting to the bus for work get changed go to the meeting get my ornders for the day check the truck and go... I didnt have to listen to anyone yakin to me about their problems "Mate I got my own problems alright" and just walk away.

It was the best thing I could do for me personally.

Now however its 3 years down the track three years that have been interesting to say the least... but my body is crashing and isnt as fit healthy or as spry as it was arthritis is settin in especially with the knees and in an emergency particularily underground you have to be able to run uphill to save your own ass let alone someone who may need help... I cant do that anymore... so Ive got a few weeks to sort myself out as I get the help I need with my legs and then I will decide and put my usual 110% into whatever it is...

Returning to counselling is just an option at present... one among several Im looking at... thing is I know it I was good at it and for a time I actually enjoyed it and even now I think I probably would if I could keep children out of the frame it was them that did my head in last time... but I could always go bar tending?!! :D nah Id drink the profits!! :D:D:D Theres always options mate at almost 50 with a lifetime of experiences to draw from its a matter of looking at each option seeing just exactly what physically is demanded then sorting through and deciding then go for broke!... Hopefully I wont have to do any further study as Im not really the studious type anymore would rather just get busy so I can aim at retiring...


someday? :o :p

S.V. Airlie
01-15-2007, 06:17 AM
I hear Dr. Phil is moving to QVC... He is gonna analyze those who actually call up and actually buy that stuff.

Milo Christensen
01-15-2007, 08:10 AM
I hear Dr. Phil is moving to QVC... He is gonna analyze those who actually call up and actually buy that stuff.

Very, very funny. Good one. Can't you just hear him shouting at some person buying some stupid piece of absolute junk?

S.V. Airlie
01-15-2007, 08:24 AM
Conversation with Dr. Phil on QVC....

Consumer: Hi, I'm Henerietta from GA... I just love that item you have. I bought two. One for my brother and one for my daughter...
Dr. Phil: Are you nuts? I mean really.. You bought TWO? What do you have against your relatives?
Consumer: Nothing.
Dr. Phil: Are you the youngest? Did you get picked on by your siblings?
Consumer: Well, yes, I suppose so.. I guess I did and I am the youngest.
Dr. Phil: Lets talk about your childhood...
Consumer: Do we have to? All I'm doing is buying two pots.
Dr. Phil: I'm trying to help you here...
Consumer: Well okay.
Dr. Phil: We will talk about the pots later.
Consumer: Well, okay.
Dr. Phil: How old are you?
Consumer: You already know that. I'm 65.
Dr. Phil: Now how would I know that?
Consumer: Idiot, I'm your sister!
Dr. Phil: Oh that one!
Consumer: Yup, that one.
Dr. Phil: Forget the pots, I don't want them...

ishmael
01-15-2007, 08:25 AM
That was a pretty good zinger, Jamie.

In defense of Dr. Phil. He comes out of a strong tradition of psychodynamic therapy. And contrary to the accusations of simple showmanship, is quite good at it. It's not a bad model, by any means. The showmanship is a bit odd, but we all make our money some way.

It's Freudian. As much as we don't want to look, the two basic streams of western psychotherapy are Freudian, and Jungian. A few others in there. Fritz Perls was good with his gestalt look, and I'm rather fond of the guy with the orgone chamber, what was his name?

In anycase, the main thrust is Freudian. If I had to pick a thinker whose colored our world of the last hundred years the most it would be Freud.

S.V. Airlie
01-15-2007, 08:37 AM
I don't pay much attention to Freud. Ever since I heard the story about his mother's comments.
the day after he was born. She exclaimed... "My God, the first Freudian slip!" LOL

Chris Coose
01-15-2007, 11:01 AM
I give up.

How DID you get him on the plane?

Really curious as to how you deal with adults in so deep as to require an 'intervention'...

PH

I was hoping nobody would ask. Because it could be a writing assignment that would take up a lot of time and words, so I've spent the last couple days mulling over the question and making the answer as sucinct as possible.
I've turned down requests to do interventions on a ratio of about 10:1 because of the risks to the client and the fundamental elements were not in place.
This one worked because I was able to determine that this client was potentially ready to be motivated by his progression into alcoholism and there were underlyng signals he would take the prescription.
The assembly of characters was text book.
All's I had to do was guide them to their hearts in preparation of their statements.
It really is akin to the priest going into the exorcism with the crucifix and the holy water. There can be overwhelming defenses that no love could transend and that could be highly detremental to the client post confrontation. Ever see the intervention in the Sapranos on Christopher?
This one took a little more work than expected but love, care, concern by very strong family members softened the guy up and he folded into it.
Once he crossed to surrender the next steps (plane ride with family members and rehab admission) were all set up.
The timing on all the steps is critical.
A couple of sessions with the team members is recommended but we did not have this luxury in this case.

I really recommend if you had a desire to take this risky step you get somebody like me to take the lead.
The trade "interventionists" out there are wicked expensive, look for somebody local who comes with some reputation.