Caledonia Yawl vs. Alden 21' Indian Class [Archive]

ishmael

01-12-2007, 05:31 PM

Quite different boats. Both sweet to my eye. I've never seen a Caledonia in the flesh, but rebuilt an Indian a few years back. I've often thought that building one in glued ply would make an interesting project. This boat had cedar planks, almost clear, that were a good twelve inches across in places. Amazing stock that just isn't much available anymore. Still sound. The rebuild was the deck and the cockpit.

Le's see, what can I tell you. The Indian is a class boat, intended for class racing. It's fast for a displacement hull, especially off the wind. A lot of sail. 230 IIRC. Designed for class racing in Cape Cod waters. Pretty able, but not as much as how Caledonia strikes me. I sailed four adults on occasion without us tripping over one another. The rig, because of its racing heritage, is fairly complex compared to Caledonia. Tall spar, running back stays, etc. That alone makes it an unlikely candidate for easy trailering. One, or even two strong men are not going to set that spar without some help. We waited for high tide and used an overhanging tree as a crane. No way two people are going to do it on a ramp, unless maybe you had it laminated out of carbon fiber, he he. It must be thirty feet.

It went through several iterations, including one carvel planked, all drawn by Sam Crocker when he worked for Alden. The final version, a glorified Swampscott dory, would go together pretty quickly in glued ply. Watertight bulkheads fore and aft would make it more able, and there's no reason to not play with the rig, as it's unlikely to be revived as a class boat. Good luck.

I loved that boat. Very responsive, and pretty.

johnw

01-12-2007, 06:08 PM

Croker also did a very nice Swampscott called the Compass class, 18 feet long, 150 square feet of sail.

kenjamin

01-12-2007, 06:16 PM

Half the fun of building the Caledonia Yawl is chewing on ideas with other builders and owners. Iain Oughtred, the CY's designer, is a great guy and willing to help although only through snail mail. The're builders all over the country building deck and undecked versions, lug and gaff sail plans. There's an artist guy in Arizona trying to work in three rowing stations. There's a guy who accidently capsized one and explained what went wrong. There's even some guy in Florida trying to make one into a sport fishing boat.;)

ishmael

01-12-2007, 06:39 PM

I knew a Compass, same era as the sailing of the Indian. We raced, informally. The Indian blew his socks off. There was no keeping up with the power of sail that hull carried. We walked away. We had a cloud of sail, the main is huge, and a more powerful hull.

We raced informally against a bunch of different types. The only boat of similar waterline that gave us a run was a Dragon, and that was to windward. He beat us there. But off the wind, bye bye.

It's a race boat. It sails very well, in good hands. It's fun. But it's very different than the Caledonia. Capt. Kirk needs to decide what he wants.

Rick Starr

01-13-2007, 07:44 AM

IIRC the indian has half again the sail area of the Compass.

ishmael

01-13-2007, 08:15 AM

Indian, 230 sq. feet. Compass 150. Plain sail. Neither boat hoists larger jibs, but the Indian does carry a chute.

230, if memory serves, is about what a traditional Folkboat carries, a little more than, I'm pretty sure.

The Indian was overcanvassed for some days on the coast of Maine. It was built as a class boat for more southerly reaches. Fifteen knots, two savvy sailors, was fine, but we had two substantial reefs ready. We were also light a hundred pounds of lead that had been snarfed over the years for other projects. 100 out of 350.

I don't discourage Kirk from building one. I 'd love to see some built again, but want him to know what he's getting into.

Hwyl

01-13-2007, 08:26 AM

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/400005.JPGhttp://www.classicmarine.co.uk/boatlists/images/callyplan.gif

I agree with Ishmael. They're completely different boats. Give us some parameters of what you're looking for.

htom

01-13-2007, 09:06 AM

Very different. I would not think of the Indian as a trailer craft at all (other than at the beginning and end of the season), although you might be able to design a system that would let you erect the mast by yourself using an electric winch and shearlegs. You'd still miss an hour or two getting into, and then getting out, of the water.

Thad

01-13-2007, 09:20 AM

As above, the Indian is a GREAT sailing boat! (but so is Caladonia, in a very different way) The Indian is the very best of the centerboard knockabouts, powerful and fast. It was designed with the idea of being a kid's boat, but was too much boat for the purpose. The first boats were 6 built by William Chamberlian. within a year they were sold to people from the Boston South shore. The Indian became the largest one design class in Massachusetts Bay. They were also very active in Narragansett Bay until quite recently. Carrying 350 pounds of inside ballast, with powerful hull sections, the Indian sails like a witch but is not a boat to be casually trailered about -- with the right trailer (20' long low flat bed) they ride well enough but take some planning to haul and rig -- on the South shore they were beached, rigged or unrigged with the help of sheer legs or a convenient ramp, the stern lifted with the sheer legs onto a box then the bow lifted with the sheer legs above trailer height, the trailer brought under to take the boat -- this in the days of class racing with helping hands. Typically they sailed with a crew of three. I sailed one race with Lee Van Gemert and Bob Campbell when it blew 40, no reefs but luffing away the gusts. A wild ride and some work for the fun of it. That was in Quincy Bay with minimal sea for the amount of wind. The Indian is much more powerful than the Compass, with it's very similar look -- smaller and not as powerful in the quarters.
The Caladonia is a much lighter vessel, low profile split rig. I've watched Geoff Kerr many times sail with the kind of ease that I'm sure is as pleasurable doing as watching.
Very different boats fine in their own ways.

johnw

01-13-2007, 01:18 PM

My point in bringing up the Compass was that it's a lot closer to the Caldonia than the Indian is. If you want a Swampscot dory that will serve many of the same purposes as the Caldonia, it might be a better choice. Lighter mast, more easily rigged, less sail, less hairy to sail. I'd rather sail an Indian, but if I was building something in plywood lapstrake that I intended to trailer, the Compass makes more sense.

Thorne

01-13-2007, 01:24 PM

As above, please give us more specific requirements and tell us how you plan on using the boat -- trailered once a season or every weekend, sailed solo for cruising or raced with a crew of three, etc.

Right now we are at the, "I can't decide between the latest Jeep and a Ferrari" stage....

ishmael

01-14-2007, 08:17 AM

Come in Captain Kirk.

You got a lot of good feedback. Beam us up.

It really does, almost always, come back to intended use. Though I bought and rebuilt Scagawea kinda on the spur of the moment, because I liked the look of her, and wanted to gain experience in boat work. Never regreted it, but it is a strong flavor the Indian has. If you're ever in the New Meadows, or anchored in The Basin, keep an eye peeled. Last I heard she's still kicking.

We really do need to hear more about intended use.

Thad

01-14-2007, 08:27 AM

And, more Indians would be great! We're keeping Cheyanne going here. Even thinking about new Indians is encouraging, it is such a great sailing boat.

ishmael

01-14-2007, 08:48 AM

Thad,

I've had my hand on the tiller of a few boats, nothing so experienced as others here, but your description of the Indian as a beautiful witch rings right. The boat just sails well. Swift, responsive, well balanced. That young Mr. Crocker had a good eye. And sometimes it doesn't come down to intended use, sometimes it's LOVE. LOL.

But, as a trailer sailor, I'd have to veto it for the reasons mentioned above. To and from the water, twice a year, okay, but not a weekender. The rig just doesn't lend that way. I do wonder if you made the spar out of one of the super duper new materials available if that equation might change. Wouldn't be inexpensive.

Thad

01-15-2007, 07:07 AM

Wonder what the Capt. thinks.

ishmael

01-15-2007, 07:54 AM

It would be nice to hear from the Enterprise. LOL. Kirk did pose an interesting question. You couldn't pick two more disimilar boats of common length. Well, you could, but you'd have to work at it a bit.

Capt. Kirk

01-15-2007, 07:34 PM

From the bridge..this is Capt. Kirk! (FYI - I'm not a trekkie - and have never captained a boat bigger than a 26 ft. sailboat - I got the nickname form the kids at church!) Thanks for all of the advice. Sorry for the delay in responding but email problems...To help clarify, I'm looking for a lapstrake (a.k.a fairly easily constructed), trailerable boat that can take 4-5 adults on short / daylong sails on protected lakes about once a month. I sold a 23 ft. Compac sailboat a year or two ago and can't get the sailing bug out of my system. I figure if I can build something that's trailerable and fairly easily rigged I can satisfy my addiction - and hide the cost in a series of small purchases rather than a lump sum that would be vetoed by my wife. I liked the Indian for what I call traditional lines - long sweep with upswept bow and stern that leaves a whisper in the water as she passes. I guess I've seen too many pictures - old and new - of classic wooden sailboats out for a day of sailing on one of the many bays in the NE that I've set that as my vision. However, living in the south I'll have to settle for lake sailing. The Caledonia attracted me because of the seemingly more versatile design (protected coastal sailing with a "cub scout pack"), easier construction (lots of info available) and easier rig. The drawbacks to me though seem to be (and my apologies to Mr. Oughtred) the double-ended design does not have the same smooth lines of the Indian and from what the pictures show, not as fast and maneuverable as the Indian. I would be interested in seeing drawings / pictures of the Compass if they are available. I fully agree that the two boats are two different designs but if I had my choice I would go with an Indian that was smaller, trailerable and relatively easy to build Compass??). I'm not sure if I've clarified my needs or not. I just had this vision of me sitting in a sailboat in a dead calm - trying decide if I should fire up the engine or wait for that wisp of wind that's bound to come. I'll get home either way but getting there involves two compeletley different methods - Confused? I am!

Thad

01-15-2007, 07:53 PM

Maybe JohnW made a good call mentioning the Compass. It does have the Indian look, in 18' with seats which the Indian lacks and proportionally smaller rig.

Woxbox

01-15-2007, 08:03 PM

For your intended use, I'll predict that if you had both boats, you'd take the Caledonia out far more often than you would the Indian. Quicker and easier to rig, will row nicely (take two pair so the guests can join in) and somewhat more forgiving to sail.

Steve Paskey

01-15-2007, 08:59 PM

From what I've read, the Caledonia is remarkable in light air. She'll ghost along with just the faintest whisper of wind, when other boats are going nowhere.

rbgarr

01-15-2007, 10:08 PM

The Town Class is 16' and suitable for 4-5 adults but is a lot of work to launch, rig and retrieve. My brother had one and it was a great boat, but heavy. Isn't the Compass a slightly enlarged yet slimmer version of the Town?

ishmael

01-15-2007, 11:22 PM

All three, Townie, Compass, Indian come out of Swampscott dory heritage. All three are built over sawn frames rather than using molds and bent frames, though I think all have bent frames. Compass is similar to the decked racing dory from "The Dory Book." Yet another candidate! LOL. It is finer, especially aft, than the others. One of the reasons, as Thad mentions, for the power in the hull of the Indian is its beefier quarters.

Compass might work for what Kirk is looking for. Pretty boats. The one I raced against belonged to a friend of my wife's family. Chamberlain built, friend had it gone through. Not a simple measure, as it was fastened originally with iron nails. My Indian was copper riveted and bronze screwed. The way I'd go if building such a boat traditionally. No personal experience, but I think the rig on Compass is still going to be a handful.

Townies are good boats, from what I've heard. I've never sailed one. I think five adults is a bit of stretch in one, unless they are nimble.

johnw

01-16-2007, 01:44 PM

Capt., now that I know your requirements, I have another idea. What about a Beachcomber-Alpha dory? It's got the traditional lines, it will carry a load without a lot of induced drag from a wide submerged transom and it has a short mast that should be easy to step. It doesn't have the big awkward skeg an Indian has, and the plans are free if you get John Gardner's "The Dory Book" our of the library. Here's what one looks like:

http://www.sailinginc.com/images/Copy%20of%20dory.jpg

Thad

01-16-2007, 05:35 PM

And going something wonderful too!!!

kenjamin

01-16-2007, 10:01 PM

In John Gardner's words page 107 of Building Classic Small Craft, "this boat will draw smartly to windward and handle like a spirited colt." Anyone else ever wondered what that hull could do with a free standing graphite mast, a modern sloop rig and NACA cross section daggerboard and rudder?

mdh

01-16-2007, 10:11 PM

I want him to build the Indian, and post lots of pictures and performance reports.

johnw

01-16-2007, 10:40 PM

kenjamin

01-17-2007, 08:50 AM

Point higher and plane more often??? I almost built the Alpha but the Caledonia Yawl is a more comfortable sail, can carry three guys and all their fishing gear, and it fits in my garage. I'm setting my CY up for fishing but it will still take the family daysailing if I can ever round them up for it. I also have a theory that I could tow my CY with my '06 Mazda MX-5 (Miata) but it would be rough on the clutch and transmission – for the motor, no problem – lots of torque for a sports car.

Hwyl

01-17-2007, 09:01 AM

http://www.sailfrensham.org.uk/images/wayfarer_thumb.jpg

http://www.noblemarine.co.uk/images/wayfarer.jpg

Your requirements shout "Wayfarer" to me. Maybe it's because I'm a Brit, I'd look at Arch Davies Penobscot 17 too, lots of choices, I'd scrub the Indian off the list though.

Keith Wilson

01-17-2007, 09:34 AM

The Town Class is 16' and suitable for 4-5 adults but is a lot of work to launch, rig and retrieve. My brother had one and it was a great boat, but heavy. I have one, (currently being rebuilt) and I do think it's a great boat; it's very much like a smaller Indian. The are both descend from dories, modified for sailing to the point they don't much resemble a dory anymore. It's not too bad to launch and rig, although the long keel-stepped mast is awkward. I used to lift it into the hole in the deck myself with no problem, but later I usually got my son to help - must be getting old. A tabernacle would fix that. But you can't buy plans; it's Pert Lowell Co's production boat. Used ones are not all that uncommon, both wood and fiberglass

If the boat will live on a trailer, ease of rigging and launching is extremely important. The Indian's mast is LONG - past the size that one can do anything singlehanded, unless you are clever with winches and bipods or gin poles, or can bench-press 350#. Again, a tabernacle would help. It can be done, but it won't ever be as easy as a boat with shorter masts.

I think the Caledonia yawl would be a superb boat for your application. It's easy to launch and rig, it has an enormous amount of space inside, and IMHO it's very handsome on the water . OTOH, if you're going to put all that effort into a building a boat, you should love the way it looks. Your call.

ishmael

01-17-2007, 09:42 AM

I've thought of trading my Drascombe Lugger for a Wayfarer. I've seen wooden ones this side of the pond, in need of a bit of spit and polish, for a song. I've always admired that boat. It does so many things well. Proctor is(still with us?) a minor genius.

What's the single chine ply boat, around this length, cat-ketch rigged. Easy, stitched construction. I can't remember its name. It's been posted here many times. It'll probably come to me, but that's another design that comes to mind for Cap's needs.

As you say, Gareth, many options.

Hwyl

01-17-2007, 09:54 AM

Do you mean the Core Sound 17 from B&B

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/cs17plane.JPG

ishmael

01-17-2007, 10:18 AM

Yep. That seems a fine boat for the stated purpose. Good looking, too.

"If the boat will live on a trailer, ease of rigging and launching is extremely important."

Have to reiterate this by Keith. If rigging and launching are going to be a pain the boat is much less likely to be sailed. I can rig my Drascombe in ten minutes, fifteen if it's lashed for trailering. Nothing fancy, a simple gunter main that is light enough for one reasonably strong person to step. Two shrouds that are secured to eyes on the side benchs with line, a forestay secured with a pin to a fitting. Very easy. Not the most weatherly rig, and a bit small, but there are more important things in a trailer boat. Looking for that in the equation is important.

johnw

01-17-2007, 01:24 PM

kenjamin

01-17-2007, 02:18 PM

Dories I've heard work better loaded down a bit and so does the CY. The trouble is you would not believe all the junk I'd like to outfit my CY hull with for fishing. First of all I want to bring a bunch of flotation to float us and all our stuff because I'm too cheap to jettison anything overboard to keep from sinking. http://www.mavc2002.com/cyforum/viewtopic.php?t=480 A partial list of stuff to float goes something like this: One 4HP outboard, three gallons of gas, a mast, two head sails, rudder, two daggerboards, two anchors and line, two oars & oarlocks, a paddle, two or three heavy tackle boxes, fishing poles, a cooler full of ice and fish, emergency food and water (at least two gallons -not counting ice) two marine deep cell batteries, aerator, electronics & fishfinder, running lights, trolling motor, three 200+ pound guys, and possibly a four man lift raft. have I left anything out? Probably. I love the look of the Alpha but like you sort of said it can't compete with a CY for load carrying ability – It's been called the Ford F-150 of small sail boats for a reason. The oars, paddle and mast will float of course but only after they are submerged and I'm not too keen on counting on them for flotation – better uses for them... like getting us home.

ishmael

01-17-2007, 04:09 PM

andrewdarius

01-17-2007, 04:10 PM

Kirk, I'd like to see the Alden Indian come to life. I believe the Apprenticeshop restored a carvel version not too long ago. A search should bring up one of their newsletters on the subject.

If not you, then I hope someone else might take the plunge,...perhaps develop a glued-lap ply version, use a tabernacle or other way to foot/step the mast...maybe even enter the offsets into CAD and scale the boat down a bit...am I thinking out loud enough?

Honestly, I too had the CY in mind, but the lines of the Indian spoke loud enough to me to purchase the set of plans. Take a look at Mower's x-dory. Photographs can be seen in the new book on Willard Jackson.

ishmael

01-17-2007, 04:32 PM

johnw

01-17-2007, 05:04 PM

Ken,

Another difference in type. The Indian is a displacement hull, designed to carry 350 lbs. of lead in the bilge. Open, in the sense of no draining cockpit. If you really swamp her, she's going down. Very different than lighter boats with floatation and no lead.

I'm not so sure. A Blanchard Junior Knockabout, which is a 20 foot keelboat with 500 lb ballast, will float when swamped, and those are lightly built.

ishmael

01-17-2007, 05:09 PM

John,

When I said that I wondered, is that correct? Tell ya, I wouldn't want to try it. She probably would float on inherent bouancy, but it would not be comfortable getting out of it.

johnw

01-17-2007, 05:10 PM

An Indian(you can tell I'm passionate about the subject) would make an interesting project. As Thad and I have said, they are wonderful boats. They handle about as well as any knockabout that size, better than most. But I don't see a practical way to make them easily trailerable. The hull isn't a problem, though you'd need a pickup, it's the rig. That boat has a tall mast. Tabernacle? Well, maybe. It's not how I see the boat.

Another problem is the long skeg and underslung rudder. If you got rid of the skeg and hung the rudder on the transom, you'd have to move the centerboard back. I suppose you could give it a gunther rig so you'd have a shorter mast to deal with. By then, it wouldn't really be an Indian anymore. Or, you could just build a Compass. On the list below, it's #175.

http://www.crockersboatyard.com/ssc-designlist.html

Thad

01-17-2007, 05:11 PM

I also would not expect it to sink.

johnw

01-17-2007, 06:48 PM

John,

When I said that I wondered, is that correct? Tell ya, I wouldn't want to try it. She probably would float on inherent bouancy, but it would not be comfortable getting out of it.

Might be worth building some tanks in it. Some of the Junior Knockabouts have steel tanks.

ishmael

01-17-2007, 07:31 PM

The boat has a bulkhead aft. Not watertight. It could have one forward, easily. If you built the boat of glued ply it would be fairly easy to make both watertight, and that would make the picture different. No sinking then, but still a lot of bailing. But, any of these boats swamped is going to be a lot of bailing.

johnw

01-17-2007, 07:48 PM

Some boats of the Indian's vintage tried watertight bulkheads. The result was usually rot. With ply and epoxy, you can make that work.

Capt. Kirk

01-17-2007, 09:50 PM

I had almost written off the Indian as too big / slow to rig and trailer until I read Ishmael's plea and reconsidered. However, my experience with boats tends to wander from starting small and then progressing to something I can't afford / build - so the Indian is out. So although the Indian's out of the picture I don't think the design of the Caledonia is what I'm looking for. I still would like to have something with similar lines, more along the lines of the Compass as seen on Thad's website. Are plans available for the Compass anywhere? Looking through Gardner's Dory Book, Chapt. 15 shows a nice looking Swampscott although the cockpit seems a little small - can this be enlarged without sacrificing design? Is this boat similar to the Compass? - By the way - thanks to everyone for all of the advice. I guess the next best thing to "messing around in boats" is talking about them!

Thad

01-18-2007, 05:58 AM

Capt. check your private messages. Plans should be available from the Peabody Essex Museum in Salem, MA. You have to talk to the Maritime Department. You might also have to talk to the Crocker Boatyard.

kenjamin

01-18-2007, 08:53 AM

Capt. Kirk, just curious. Is the Caledonia Yawl too slow for you? If so check out this new smaller Oughtred design.
http://www.grapeviewpointboatworks.com/tirrik.html
or maybe an Artic tern http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Arctic+Tern
Good luck with your decision and if you end up building an Alpha, could I crew with you sometime?

mcdenny

01-18-2007, 10:19 AM

How about a HAVEN 12.5? A+ in trad looks dept, good for day sailing with big comfy cockpit.

Good plans, lots of web support, no lofting req'd. Ballast keel and all hardware commercially available. Reasonalble to rig at ramp.

Could be glued lapstrake but would look 'righter' strip planked, FG inside and out which IMHO wouldn't be any harder than glued lap.

Someday I'll have one...

ishmael

01-18-2007, 10:21 AM

Kirk,

The boat in "The Dory Book" is similar to Compass. I don't have any reports of it, but I remember admiring it on paper. Enlarging the cockpit is quite doable, but whenever doing such things it's good to thunk on it awhile. There are issues of structure. The cockpit often ends at more major beams, so that would have to be sorted. It would be a different issue in glued ply. I also don't think the boat would look right if you went overboard with the enlargement. The people who drew these boats, the good ones, put a lot of thought into proportion as well as structure. Before going with a major change, try to climb into their thinking. I, almost always, like their solution better than mine.

I think you're right to reject the Indian. Love that boat, but...

Good luck.

rbgarr

01-18-2007, 10:37 AM

The Compass Class spar is 22-24 feet long and the garboards will be have to be made from honking wide spliced plywood sheets. Just so you know.

johnw

01-18-2007, 01:27 PM

The Beachcomber-alpha doesn't have a cockpit. It's a completely open boat. It also has a short mast that should be easy to step. It's also built with narrower strakes than the Compass. I hadn't considered the racing dory in "The Dory Book," but it would be more practical than an Indian in terms of trailering. It also wouldn't sail as fast. I think you can make the cockpit as long as you want, provided you keep wide side decks. The boat has low freeboard, and once water starts coming in over the lee rail of an open boat, stability disappears. The Beachcomber-alpha achieves its seaworthyness with higher freeboard, and being an open boat has plenty of room for people.

John Meachen

01-18-2007, 06:07 PM

Information for Ish-Ian Proctor died a few years ago.He was taken ill while watching a Wayfarer championship.His design output was colossal and hundreds of thousands of boats have been built to is designs.

Capt. Kirk

01-18-2007, 07:44 PM

- The Caledonia style boats are beautiful in their own right but like everyone has said, two different boats with two different purposes. I think it's the open double-ended design that will not suit my needs as much as an "Indian style" for the lake sailing I'll be doing.
- I had considered the Haven but according to the WoodenBoat plan description it requires "advanced" boat building skills and is designed to be carvel planked - a combination that may overwhelm me.
- I asked about opening up the cockpit because I know how critical a good design is and would not want to chance weakening her. I've heard of boatyards just "adding a few feet" to a boat with disastrous results. Being 6'4" I want to be sure I have plenty of room in the cockpit.
- Can anyone identify the sailboat in this picture? It comes from the land down under so may be a local design. This is exactly what I would like my boat to look like. Click on the link and open the picture titled "Sailing on Albert Park Lake". http://www.johnthwaites.com.au/aboutjohn/photos.php#

Woxbox

01-18-2007, 08:01 PM

Well, could it be the Herreshoff 12 1/2 or Doughdish?
http://www.thesailboatshop.com/boatlist/images/doughdish1t.jpg
If it is, it has a lot of keel and ballast underneath.
http://www.hardingsails.com/images/doughdishtrailer318x216.jpg

But a fine boat by all standards if you don't mind trailering and launching such a boat. The biggest downside to me is the inability to beach such a design. You need a dock or a dinghy.

mcdenny

01-18-2007, 10:17 PM

As Woxbox said, that looks like a Haven 12 1/2.

You can find lots of info on the web about it.

http://www.johnthwaites.com.au/gallery/large/JT%20sailing%209.jpg

I don't see why you couldn't strip plank it. There would be a lot of parts no matter how you built it, though.

It sure is pretty. Imagine what it would look like with a white hull, proper boot stripe, buff deck and 15 knots of wind a bit aft of the beam!

johnw

01-19-2007, 01:33 PM

OK, Capt. Kirk, now I've got it. When you looked through "The Dory Book," you liked the racing dory instead of the Beachcomber. One problem with this design is that Garner doesn't provide offsets. I know someone who built the boat anyway, taking careful measurements off of a plan that was way too small. The boat came out great, and he gave it a huge curved gaff and way too much sail. It's an amazing experience sailing it.

There is a plan for a similar boat with a big cockpit in John Leather's "Sail and Oar." The plans include offsets, not in a table but on the plan itself. I think that one is exactly what you want. To make it easier to rig, you might consider using a lightweight rig from something like a Lightning or a Thistle.

johnw

01-19-2007, 01:37 PM

Here's a link to a picture of Chesuki:

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2004/Chesuki-2.jpg

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=chesuki&btnG=Google+Search&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi

http://woodenboat.org/festival/Guide/chesuki.htm

Thorne

01-19-2007, 03:39 PM

Why does the deck and coaming not go all the way around? Lovely boat!

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2004/Chesuki-1.jpg

johnw

01-19-2007, 03:48 PM

You know, I've never asked David why he did that. The original boat had a long after deck.

Maybe it's because the stern is narrow, and he wanted to be able to sit in the stern sheets.

johnw

01-21-2007, 02:43 PM

Now I think about it, with the low boom, I found it handy when I was sailing the boat to sit in the stern sheets and duck under the tiller and boom when I tacked. If the decks went all the way to the stern, I couldn't have done that.

Thad

01-21-2007, 03:18 PM

I answered a couple of PMs today, a few days late on the uptake. To Capt.Kirk, I don't remember lofting the Compass though I expect we did for the backbone profile and transom shape especially. Dory offsets are typically to the chine/points at the frame stations not to parallel waterlines and the building molds are the frames. The frames can be cut to the offsets, but the backbone sweep and bevels, and the transom bevels are best determined by lofting. It is a great way to think about the structure and get started in any case.

johnw

01-22-2007, 03:09 PM

I think the Compass is an excellent choice for ply lapstrake construction. Extending the cockpit should be no problem. The mast is tall, but if it's not stepped through the deck, it shouldn't be a problem. Check out how David did the mast step in his Sea Chanty dory pictured above.

Thad

01-22-2007, 05:15 PM

There is no aft deck on the Compass.

Philip Maynard

01-22-2007, 09:00 PM

I love the Chesuki, this is Chapter 15 "The Dory Book"? He list's the length as 17' but Gardner shows it as 18' (the beam is the same 5'-8"). The first boat I seriously considered building was Gardner's Mower Dory in "More Building Classic Small Craft" but this looks better.

johnw

01-22-2007, 09:25 PM

He calls it an 18' dory, but if you look at the dimensions it's over 20 feet.

I remembered the plans of the Compass in the book about SS Crocker's designs as haven a deck and an oval cockpit. Oh well, I no longer have the book and sometimes memory doesn't serve.

Steve Paskey

01-22-2007, 10:18 PM

Looking through Gardner's Dory Book, Chapt. 15 shows a nice looking Swampscott although the cockpit seems a little small - can this be enlarged without sacrificing design?

If you like that boat, get a copy of John Gardner's "Building Classic Small Craft" (the version with both volumes I and II) and have a look at chapter 15 in part 2, the "Mower Dory."

It's an 18-foot sailing dory with a beam of five feet, designed by the venerable Charles Mower. Very similar to the boat in Chap. 15 of the Dory Book, but with a bigger cockpit. AND -- "Building Classic Small Craft" includes offsets and sufficient details to build her.

Steve Paskey

01-22-2007, 10:25 PM

Here you go, Capt. The boat I just mentioned:

http://www.barefootwoodenboats.com/mowerdory_0.JPEG
http://www.barefootwoodenboats.com/mowerdory_1.JPEGhttp://www.barefootwoodenboats.com/mowerdory_2.JPEG

Steve Paskey

01-22-2007, 10:31 PM

And here's a page dedicated to her construction:

http://www.barefootwoodenboats.com/mowerdoryproject.htm

Varna

01-23-2007, 01:52 AM

As I was reading this thread I began to think of the Mower as well as fitting your search. Not sure she would be very fast however as her stern is very pinched as in a rowing dory- maybe I'm wrong, but she seems a bit of an odd mix for a primary sailing boat. Her Dory build is fast and easy on learners, She is drop dead gorgeous I would imagine in 3D and wood, but It seemed that some speed and sailing fun is part of the equation..? For that one wants 'Transom' and a wide and flatish run-within reason-more than the Mower anyway...Yes,No?
I recall Bolgers essay and thesis on why fattened dory's don't make good sail boats, to make it a good sailboat you have to change it into...a sailboat, instead of a fat rowing ship....
But alas the Mower will have a great sweep in the sheer to that small tombstone aft, very compelling and tempting in plan view. If you want a better 'performer' I would keep looking...but what do I know...I'm just another peanut in OZ...
How about one of Oughtreds bigger dinghys, forget the name-16.5' I think, beautiful and seaworthy and roomy, perhaps stretched or enlarged a bit to your needs. And he is available for opinions and very helpful man as I understand:-)
Uffa Fox's 18ft National Resticted class is another. Similar to the 16' 'Lively' but a proportionaly smaller transom breadth, but still a fast and fun sailer, designed for lapstrake/frames - plans likely unavailable in large format. Published lines and sail plan and constr'ctn drw's in Fox's book 'Thought's on Yachts and Yachting' A tough book to find now I believe.Once in awhile He turns up on Amazon, but don't tell anyone.... But the Oughtred is a good way to go I think for what you describe, I just forget the name of his larger dinghy-all those name changes the last few years.

Steve Paskey

01-23-2007, 06:43 AM

I recall Bolgers essay and thesis on why fattened dory's don't make good sail boats, to make it a good sailboat you have to change it into...a sailboat, instead of a fat rowing ship....

I believe Bolger's comment was aimed at fattened banks dorys ... with slab sides ... not the swampscott type. There are many fine sailboats based on the swampscott shape, including several of John Welsford's designs.

As for performance of the Mower dory ... from Gardner:

"In 1898 Mower designed a 21-foot racing dory for the Swampscott Club. This boat came to be known as the X-dory, a winner from the start and rivaled only by the Beachcomber dories of Marblehead and tdhe Alphas of Salem, nearly identifical craft from William Chamberlain's Orne Street shop in Marblehead. Scores of X-dories were built and sailed and they continued to sail and to win races well beyond the 1940s."

The boat shown above is a smaller version of the X-dory. I'd expect her to sail quite nicely.

htom

01-23-2007, 09:27 AM

He calls it an 18' dory, but if you look at the dimensions it's over 20 feet.
...

Dorys were traditionally measured by the length of their bottoms.

johnw

01-23-2007, 01:43 PM

Dorys were traditionally measured by the length of their bottoms.

Only the bottom looks less than 18 feet.

rbgarr

01-24-2007, 12:13 AM

Indian for sale here: http://atlchal.myaiweb30.com/boats/donated.shtm

Capt. Kirk

01-24-2007, 03:26 PM

Thanks again for all of the info. Based on what you all have told me I'm now trying to decide between the Compass and the Chesuki. With due respect to the other offerees, these two boats seem to suit my needs best - although the Mower was / is tempting. I'm beginning to realize there are probably a hundred designs that would suit my needs but I realize that at some point I have to stop cutting bait and start fishing. Once I find a picture of the finished Compass I may able to make a final decision. One of the factors that will work into all of this is the avaialbility of plans and advice along the way. I'm checking on the availability of plans as Thad mentioned but still a little vague on the availability of the Chesuki plans (I may have missed that info).

Steve Paskey

01-25-2007, 12:49 PM

Chesuki was lofted from the lines in Gardner's Dory book, though the builder later found the body plan in a 1970s edition of National Fisherman magazine. Maybe you can e-mail him and get a copy.
Good luck!

johnw

01-25-2007, 01:53 PM

It's out of print, but in "Sam Crocker's Boats" you'll find a small picture of Compasses racing. Chesuki is a "Sea Chanty" class of which only two were originally built. I doubt David still has the offsets he came up with, but it's possible. I don't see the boat on the link rbgarr supplied, but if the Apprentishop built one, they must have the offsets. I do like the fact that the Sea Chanty has a wider bottom plank than the Mower designs.

andrewdarius

01-25-2007, 03:27 PM

Study plans for a C.D. Mower racing dory can be had from DN Goodchild for $3.50. Difficult to read some of the details, but enough info for someone with experience...
http://www.dngoodchild.com/7794.htm

Daniel Noyes

01-26-2007, 01:18 PM

Hi all
This is a very interesting subject to me. It's great to hear from so many dory afficinados. I live on the Massachusetts north shore and have worked in a couple dory shops. While working at Pert Lowell and co. I had the chance to help build a new wooden Town Class sloop, a number of fiberglass ones and do restoration and repair on more than twenty. They are a beautiful dory and have a reputatiuon for being fast boats. As has been mentioned it is the wide transom that gives the Indian and the townie their power and ability to stand up to a press of sail. Incidently in the early days the Townie was built in lapstrake and carvel (smooth sided) models
Capt.Kirk
I have recently designed and built a 18ft loa. smooth sided sailing dory influenced by the Townie, Indian, and by inland lake sailing scows (I traveled to Ohio to see a wooden E scow (28ft) up close). Where you have mentioned you will be sailing on a lake this boat may be ideal for you. I would be happy to make the plans and more importantly tracings of all my patterns, moulds and hardware available to you. I also have over 60 photos docoumenting various stages of construction. She is a long, low, decked dory 5' wide 18 ft overall with a through hull rudder, 22' mast and one set of stays. The owner trailer sails her. Im not sure how to post photos so if someone could explain or email me for photos at danoyes1@hotmail.com

Steve Paskey

01-29-2007, 05:12 PM

I know the Capt' said he's down to two finalists, but for anyone else who might be interested ...

Alden has plans for a couple of nice-looking one-design centerboard sailboats in the 18-19 foot range -- the "Duxbury Duck" and the "Small Point O.D." There's also a 15-footer -- the "Thousand Island O.D." -- and several larger craft.

See: http://www.aldendesigns.com/onedesign-centerboard/index.html

They're not Swampscott dory-style in construction, but I think they have the classic look the Capt' was after.

ishmael

01-29-2007, 08:09 PM

One thing that hasn't been talked about is the rudder on the Mower style dories. With the rake of that transom, the rudder is going to be, um interesting. They'll work, but hard over there's going to be a lot of strange turbulence. Not a huge issue, but I can see what Crocker was playing with aft when he designed Indian with an upright transom and an inboard rudder. Scagawea steered very well.

Gawd, that oval coaming on the Mower boat. So pretty. I helped a friend put a two piece steamed white oak coaming in a skiff. Different ways you can go at it. Laminating is one, but if you've got access to good white oak bending stock I like that way. We bent both in a couple hours, with then probably a half week's time shaping and fitting. It turned out beautifully. There's a lot going on there. There're the obvious bends front and back, but there's also shape in shear, and to do it right you have to get the fit between them tight. We bent them right into the boat, but clamping was hard. Another way I used on the Indian for its mahogany coamings was to build a temporary form in the desired shape. Mine was right on the deck. I broke one piece of stock. Dry mahogany doesn't steam well.

Build a boat with steam bent oval coaming and you'll never want for praise.

Venchka

02-13-2007, 12:11 PM

...To help clarify, I'm looking for a lapstrake (a.k.a fairly easily constructed), trailerable boat that can take 4-5 adults on short / daylong sails on protected lakes about once a month. ... I figure if I can build something that's trailerable and fairly easily rigged I can satisfy my addiction - and hide the cost in a series of small purchases rather than a lump sum that would be vetoed by my wife. ... long sweep with upswept bow and stern that leaves a whisper in the water as she passes. ... The Caledonia attracted me because of the seemingly more versatile design (protected coastal sailing with a "cub scout pack"), easier construction (lots of info available) and easier rig. The drawbacks to me though seem to be (and my apologies to Mr. Oughtred) the double-ended design does not have the same smooth lines of the Indian and from what the pictures show, not as fast and maneuverable as the Indian. ... I just had this vision of me sitting in a sailboat in a dead calm - trying decide if I should fire up the engine or wait for that wisp of wind that's bound to come. I'll get home either way but getting there involves two compeletley different methods - Confused? I am!

For your intended use, I'll predict that if you had both boats, you'd take the Caledonia out far more often than you would the Indian. Quicker and easier to rig, will row nicely (take two pair so the guests can join in) and somewhat more forgiving to sail.

From what I've read, the Caledonia is remarkable in light air. She'll ghost along with just the faintest whisper of wind, when other boats are going nowhere.

- The Caledonia style boats are beautiful in their own right but like everyone has said, two different boats with two different purposes. I think it's the open double-ended design that will not suit my needs as much as an "Indian style" for the lake sailing I'll be doing.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid159/p1eb84eccfbe0333bd25197db36309264/f4f615f2.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid173/p4eaf79ad3815320cfa62d94cabdeea55/f3acbc90.jpg

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid159/p00031cad08a82546bce5f7b64a75d086/f4f615d6.jpg

Y'all know I'm prejudiced. You should also know that nobody on the planet has harbored dreams of building and sailing a Swampscott dory longer than I have going all the way back to the first edition of The Dory Book. That said, when it came to put my check book where my dreams were, I opted to have a Caledonia yawl built. Why? Because the Caledonia yawl is a better all-purpose boat than a dory of similar size. It sails better, rows tolerably well enough, trailers like it wasn't behind the tow vehicle, rock solid stable, room for a gang of folks and looks drop dead gorgeous from any angle in or out of the water.

Room for 4-5 adults? No problem. Room for more if you want to. Sail solo? No problem even with a double reef in the main, full mizzen, and 30 mph gusts.

Steve, I have a witness. Elisabeth Grace sails in less than the faintest whisper of wind. No wind at all. Nothing. Yet the boat sailed along. It was spooky but true. Ask Wayne Jeffers who was on the helm.

There are several options for adding as much or as little decking and flotation as your needs require. I opted for the bow and stern bulkheads and a total of four compartments. Any one of them will float any dense cargo aboard. I can walk around the perimeter of the boat without fear of falling out or swamping.

The primary reason I selected the Caledonia yawl are my grandkids. I wanted a boat that I felt was secure enough to protect them. I made the right choice. Elisabeth Grace is more than large enough for my daughter and 3 grandkids to occupy the forward half of the cockpit while my wife and I occupy the aft half. I can row the boat without hitting anyone with an elbow.

For all of the reasons you stated that you wanted a boat plus 4 score and 7 reasons you haven't even thought about yet, the Caledonia yawl is a good choice. It is certainly my candidate for a go anywhere, do anything open to semi-open daysailing, beach cruising, fishing, goofing off, all around fun boat. The boat keeps me grinning.

Did I mention that you can sail with one hand lightly on the tiller and a cold drink in the other? Tacking doesn't require you to put the cold drink down.

Did I also mention that Caledonia yawl #1 was designed and built for a client in Massachusetts?

Good luck!

Wayne Jeffers

02-13-2007, 07:00 PM

. . .
Steve, I have a witness. Elisabeth Grace sails in less than the faintest whisper of wind. No wind at all. Nothing. Yet the boat sailed along. It was spooky but true. Ask Wayne Jeffers who was on the helm. . .

I’ll vouch for that!

During much of the time we were sailing, there was zero apparent wind, at least, and she kept sailing. Spooky for sure. And perfectly responsive to input from the helm at all times.

Hey, Wayne, it’s good to see you around these parts again. I hope all is well with you and yours!

Wayne

Donn

02-13-2007, 07:24 PM

If y'all were talking, there was plenty of wind.:p

It's good to see you're both still ticking.

Venchka

02-14-2007, 10:12 AM

If y'all were talking, there was plenty of wind.:p

It's good to see you're both still ticking.

Thanks! I think. :D

Wayne North,

Thanks for asking. Everyone is fine. Lisa & I are Texicans now. That is a good thing. The kids are in Palm Harbor, Florida. Grandbaby #4, a little girl, is due at Easter.

How the heck are you? Is the house finished? Shop built? Y'all must be up to your buns in frozen white stuff about now. I hope everyone is safe and warm indoors.

Wayne took the pictures posted above including the two of Moi doing my best Wilson impersonation.

Wayne Jeffers

02-15-2007, 08:33 AM

Wayne,

I’m glad to hear all is well. You’re almost 3 grandbabies ahead of me, but give me (and my 5 children!) time. :D

Not too much left to do on the house, though I think there will always be something. Shop is in progress - long story; maybe a separate post, later.

Lots of cold here for the last 5 weeks, but not too much snow. More snow falls on the western slopes, much less here on the eastern. But remember: During the 8 or 9 months per year that you’re sweltering on the Gulf Coast, it is mild with low humidity here. Enduring 2 or 3 months of winter is a small price to pay. :p ;)

Wayne

Capt. Kirk

02-15-2007, 09:09 PM

Wayne - Thanks for the tempting pictures of the beautiful Caledonia Yawl. If I was still living on the coast I don' think I could find a more suitable boat to explore the barrier islands in. Unfortunately I'm now far inland and have to find contentment on the area lakes here. But if I ever move back to the coast..............

almeyer

02-16-2007, 08:51 AM

Just curious, Capt., but why don't you think the Cal Yawl would make a good lake boat?
Al

peb

02-16-2007, 10:32 AM

I have toyed with an idea of building a trailerable camping boat. One to take to a lakes and bays with the kids. The CY is way high on my list.

kenjamin

02-16-2007, 02:23 PM

With her curvy lines and high freeboard the CY can show off its capabilities better where there's wind and waves but some big lakes have big waves. Fact of the matter is a CY can ghost along on a quiet lake and also handle a backwashed tidal rip along the coast of your favorite ocean or gulf. Knowing she's that veratile makes her even prettier to look at me thinks.

johnw

02-16-2007, 02:47 PM

Chesuki is faster.

kenjamin

02-16-2007, 04:25 PM

...but slower to rig and more tender, right? There's no perfect design. The choice should be the one that best meets your needs and wants. I lust after the Beachcomer Alpha hull because it's just so darn good looking but I doubt I could get my family in it more than once and I'd also have to find a new fishin' buddy – one that could enjoy the tippy speedster. But I can't help wondering what an Alpha could do built light, water ballasted, and rigged with an unstayed spruce mast and a modern sloop rig.

johnw

02-16-2007, 06:30 PM

Ahy not add a trapeze?

kenjamin

02-16-2007, 11:36 PM

Sure why not? As long as I'm not the one hangin' out there. :D

Capt. Kirk

02-17-2007, 08:02 PM

Just curious, Capt., but why don't you think the Cal Yawl would make a good lake boat?
Al

I guess the biggest drawback to me is the high freeboard of the Caledonia. Great if you're coastal or big lake sailing but I'm looking for something I can lay back in and drag my hand through the water on a hot summer day of sailing. Since I don't anticipate any big water sailing, I think I've settled on the Compass. Maybe the real problem is the Caledonia is just too versatile....if you have a boat that's good for every condition, what excuse are going to use to build another boat???????

kenjamin

02-18-2007, 10:22 AM

Captain, you're exactly right. Since the last boat I built was 18 years ago and I'm 57, I figure this CY I'm building has got to do it all for me for quite a while. Fortunately for me there's great fishing nearby on the Gulf of Mexico and I make a lot of trips to my hometown of St. Augustine where there's the Atlantic waiting. My cousin is a charter captain there and I'm hoping he can get us on some snapper not too far out.

Someday maybe I could build the Alpha Beachcomber for a boyscout troop or something. It would be great to be at the tiller with a full crew at the oars.

Happy hand dragging, Captain.

Venchka

02-19-2007, 08:34 AM

I guess the biggest drawback to me is the high freeboard of the Caledonia.

Not true. If you're solo and lying on the sidebench, the water is close enough to touch.

johnw

02-19-2007, 02:00 PM

I've sailed both. The experience of sailing Chesuki is not like sailing the Caledonia. Part of it is that David gave the boat a larger rig than the design called for, but part is that you're right down by the water in a boat the goes much faster in most conditions. This is a boat that was designed to race, so it's natural enough that it would give you a different experience than sailing an all-arounder like the Caledonia. For singlhanding in coastal waters, I'd choose the Caledonia. For a more exiting ride in protected waters, Chesuki.

boatbear

02-24-2007, 07:17 PM

http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/15385054/233164573.jpg
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/15385054/233164560.jpg
http://pic50.picturetrail.com/VOL405/8230927/15385054/233164568.jpg
I have been following this thread with increasing interest and feel it’s time to throw in my two-bob’s worth. It's my first attempt at posting, so 'bear' with me. There is mention a few posts ago about the boat in Chapter 15 of John Gardener’s The Dory Book. I built one of these about 15 years back, scaling up from the itty bitty lines drawing and measuring my own table of offsets. I built her as an open boat with a foredeck and put a gaff rig on her. I also added a skeg to aid tracking whilst rowing. She is sailed on Lake Hume (in south east Australia). The lake is largely sheltered and the winds are typically light and fickle or raging from all directions. The water is dotted with dead red-gum trees and edged with sandy beaches, mud berths and granite boulders. The general rule is “Don’t sail further than you are prepared to row back.” This was my second boat building exercise, and the ‘Sea Chanty’ one-design seemed to provide the ideal set of compromises. Time is often in short supply so I needed a boat that could be thrown in the water at a moment’s notice when the winds are right. I also like to row, so needed a boat that was light enough and fast enough under oars. She needed to be easy to launch, retrieve, rig and sail single-handed but also able to carry a bunch of people (I’ve had 8 people and a dog in her – don’t do this at home – the dog was wet).
Sweet Fanny has evolved over time and now sports a short bowsprit, self tending jib, a mast tabernacle above the boom (rigging time is less than 10 minutes, and the mast can be lowered and raised whilst on the water). When sailing solo in stiff wind, I use a couple of 25 litre water containers to provide ballast. Preferred ballast is a couple of beamy women lolling on cushions either side of the centreboard. Flotation is provided by a lot of plastic drink bottles trapped behind a well-drained bulkhead under the foredeck and in a boot (trunk) behind the rear backrest.
The centreboard has a couple of kg of lead built in, and will happily ride over the unavoidable tree branches. A soft elastic strap holds down the rudder blade. The oars are permanently fixed on outrigger oarlocks and rear supports with hook-and-eye straps. This arrangement allows a couple of bums to fit comfortably on the gunwales as required, and the oars can be very quickly pressed into service when stuck ‘in irons’ in a clump of red-gums. The gaff rig is both powerful and forgiving. The main can be dropped in a couple of seconds. She ghosts effortlessly.
I am still delighted with Sweet Fanny after 15 years. She took two years of spare time to build, using hoop pine ply for the bottom and garboards, local hardwood and ply for the frames, and Pinus Radiata for the upper planking. All epoxied and still quite sound. I designed and made the sails, after reading a couple of books on the subject. I also had the pleasure of learning to weld and use a metal lathe. Fanny will continue to evolve. Perhaps a longer bowsprit and larger foresail would be worth a try.
The Dory Book is a superb resource for anyone interested in lapstrake construction. It is full of neat tricks, clearly illustrated and explained. I would be pleased to send CAD drawings of the frames to anyone interested in building a sister for Sweet Fanny. I even have hardboard templates and the strongback if there is anyone local who wants to borrow them.
(BTW, an Australian fanny is about an inch or two forward of an American fanny.)

Philip Maynard

02-24-2007, 08:20 PM

That looks very nice, it's hard to see in the photo's but there are no side decks or mast stays?

StevenBauer

02-24-2007, 08:41 PM

I'd like to formally nominate boatbear to win the 'best first post' award. :D

Welcome. :) Nice boat.

Steven

boatbear

02-25-2007, 03:28 AM

Thanks, guys. No, there are no side decks; just a wide gunwale rail. There are conventional side stays. The forestay has a rope tail that goes through a block to a clam cleat on the bowsprit. Everything (stays, sails, sheets, halyards) stay hooked up, ready to be raised.

Daniel Noyes

03-03-2007, 01:27 PM

Hi all
there's really a bigger question here. what is "better" a boat with a transom (Indian) or a double-ender (Caledonia)? Many dories fall into the category of double ender for all practical purposes. Given similar dimensions and weight a swampscot type dory will perform just as well as a Caledonia yawl or any other double ender. Over 100 yrs. ago the quest for greater speed under sail pushed dories to develope wider transoms as did many other light sail boats of the time. The light boat with a wide transom has the great advantage over a double ender in it's ability to stand up under a larger press of sail. The extreme example of this is the inland lake scow where not only is the stern carried wide but the bow was widened as well allowing a light crew and unballasted hull to cary a good size sail. John is quite right comparing a Caledoina (or a open Swampscott dory) to an X dory, Sea Chanty, Town Class, Indian...etc. is like comparing a sport/utility to a Ferrari, what do you really want to do?
Dan

Woody Woodside

03-05-2007, 03:25 AM

Hi all, I am new to this forum stuff, but did own, and sail an Indian on Narragansett Bay in the sixties. My boat was one of the last built before the new interest in wooden boats began. A maple tree fell on her in winter of '71. To add a bit here, Indians do in fact sink when knocked down, and do need all 350 pounds of lead. When we went in the water springtime, we got the mast in her, rowed out to mooring, and got in the clubs skiff before she sank.The following weekend she would be tight, and stay dry. A real joy to sail, an absolute bitch to tune up, that marconi rig can be bent like a noodle really changing sail shape. You can broad reach with flat spinniker set, and really go if you have a big crew. I replaced the stbd garboard plank in her, an as I recall it was close to fifteen inches wide, and had to get it from a small mill up Maine, cost me twenty dollars at the mill. I nearly went into shock at that price, now spend that much per board foot for some stuff! If someone builds new, I will have an attic search done, I may have a set of Ejyptian cotten sails that were in very good condition when they went in the attic.