How Ya Doin Ish?

[jack grebe]

please keep us posted.

[Chris Coose]

It may be that Jack has checked in someplace and we may not hear from him for anywhere from 3 -30 days.
Managed Care has pretty much done in the 28 day programs unless you have some significant coin up front. The residential programs have been replaced by IOPs (Intensive Outpatient programs) which, statistically show about the same outcomes.
Acadia hospital is in Bangor and they are licensed for both mental health and alcohol and drug treatment.
Good chance he went there for an assessment.

In the business we see about 2 in 10 come in and you can't make em drink because they are highly motivated. 2 in 10 will drink for certain and the rest are at various levels of motivation and treatment may assist in elevating motivation to change.

Jack seemed good and ready to me. All his friends here help a great deal in wishing him well. That support is a big deal.

Booze is this powerful thing that would like to get its victim into a small room and kill him.

[Memphis Mike]

My thoughts too. I hope he went into treatment. It's HARD to get sober when you are alone.

[LeeG]

Booze is this powerful thing that would like to get its victim into a small room and kill him.

now that's subtle

[ishmael]

Hi fellows.

Still sober, and I've located a meeting nearby. Not sure how often it meets, the only one listed is Friday evenings.

I'll try to check in occasionally/regularly. I've still got some pretty raw emotions about some of the stuff that happened here, and it feels like re-opening a wound to spend much time here at the moment.

Thanks to all the kind folks who've called or written PM, and for all the kind wishes here on the WBF.

Ish

[Sea Smoke]

I'd say by far most participants and lurkers here are really pulling for you, Ishmael. Keep us in your thoughts, and we'll do the same for you. TH.

[Nicholas Carey]

Evidently I missed some stuff 'round here over the weekend.

Good luck, Ish -- we're here for you.

[Phil Heffernan]

Hi fellows.

Still sober, and I've located a meeting nearby.
Ish

Alright Jack ;) You may have just become an inspiration to youth ;)

Keep on keepin' on, brother...It gets easier, I hear:)

PH

PS Your post already sounds more real...and significant...

[Bruce Hooke]

My best wishes to you Jack...

[Wild Dingo]

ahem... pullin on me miners helmet an about to set fire to some peoples firm beliefs I turn on the caplamp tighten the cinches on me belt an knuckle down

Jack... mate... buddy... pal... cobber... yer don need no stinkin AA meetin to get straight!! Yer need ter tuffen up son! Its a bottle of booze nothin more nothin less... dont wanna drink no more? DONT! take every last bottle out of the fridge cupboard bar wherever and pour em down the drain take the empties to the bin and make a CHOICE! NO MORE BLOODY GROG!... Period end of story... stick by it toughen up make choices about how you go places if you have to go past a pub tavern or bottle shop CHOOSE to change routes to get there so you dont go past them... if you have mates or sheilas over or go to their place for a meal or whatever TOUGHEN UP and say NO sorry I dont drink anymore... hard initially but it DOES get easier then one day its not an issue its just "nah you'll be right thanks!" no insult given none taken

Ahem... now off with me rough tuff miners gear an on wif me other darkers side... Jack... mate... buddy... pal... cobber... Theres nothin wrong with goin to AA if thats what you FEEL you need to do being coerced or "encouraged" to attend by well meaning freinds without your own heart and mind being in that "obligation" choice is bullshyte! YOU HAVE TO WANT TO STOP!!... nothing else will do it nothing will work unless YOU WANT TO STOP

See now all over the world mate theres a hell of a lot of really seriously good people people with lives families careers and such who "mmm maybe" or "yeah I suppose" they have a "problem" with the drink and hell many actually do but they get bamboozled and constantly bashed over the friggin head with well meanin freinds family and even workmates tellin them they have to "go get help from AA" but see they arent really sure they have a problem so their hearts and minds arent in the actual choice they do it simply cause they feel obligated to do so... maybe its the missus tellin them theyre obligated to try to believe them to do the right thing even if THEY dont actually believe it is the right thing... and mate? more times than not they "fail" you know what happens when they "fail" mate? they feel guilty they feel they have failed miserably the wife friends workmates tut tut tut them every chance they get and they find solace in the one "friend" they have the bottle... by the time they actually do realize they have a bloody problem theyre in deep shyte.... oops too late :(

See I got this small theory based on 12 years as a counsellor... that is no matter who tells someone they have a drinking problem no matter how much it may be obvious to others that someone has a drinking problem no matter how theyre behaving how theyre sliding how theyre doin physically mentally or emotionally THEY will NOT accept they have a problem... UNTIL they theymselves SEE IT!

AA does do good work... works for many people the world over... no worries good on em and good on the people that get help that way but mate make some LIFE choice changes make some serious CONSCIOUS efforts to change the environments that you find yourself drinking in... Mate make some changes to your life lifestyle habits and emotions and you can do it

Yeah we all need encouragement we all need to know people give a shyte but seriously do we all need to stand up in a group of people we dont bloody know and say "Hi Im Jack an Im a alcoholic"? No to me thats just compounding the thing "Im an alcoholic nothing I can do about it nothin no one else can do about it so here I am on the way to the bottom sure hope someone else can help me" maybe they can. but to me its like giving up before you REALLY get serious about CHANGING YOUR LIFE YOURSELF... sorta like "look here Im a bit of a pissant so people reckon maybe I am I cant see it meself but there yer go I gots no idea what to do to help meself so Im givin up on me an handin over RESPONSIBILITY for ME an MY choices to someone else" but I tell you what YOU can help YOU more than anyone else can!!... first step is to make some changes mate serious life changing attitudal changes to you and the way you act react to situations people and environments and you can make a hell of a difference... by YOURSELF for YOURSELF

Its about control... YOU being in control of YOU and YOUR choices... once you master that you master the booze drugs violence or whatever else is screwing up your life... it may take a few months it more likely will take years to attain it but it will come but giving up on yourself and handing you over to a bunch of people you dont know in the hope they can help you?... well as I said they do do some great work and Im not knockin them at all what I am saying is DONT GIVE UP ON YOU being able to help you.

All the best with it mate

[PatCox]

You just painted a target on yourself, Dingo; AA folk are true believers. They call "toughening up" "white knuckling." They think that even if you succeed in stopping, even if you become a teetotaler, you will still be a drunk, just a "dry drunk," unless you "get with the program." They will tell you that the only way to stop drinking is to admit you are helpless, that booze is a powerful monster over which you have no control, as opposed to your suggestion that people can in fact control themselves. It never occurred to me before, but now that I put it this way, I think there is a good deal of personification they do, they actuall personify the booze, and then they project on it, its not that booze is just a thing like any thing, its an evil person who wants to beat you up. Strange.

But anyway, if you deny you're a witch, that proves you are a witch. If you are strong enough to simply stop drinking, that makes you a helpless dry drunk, you must bow down before alcohol and admit it is your master, so they say.

[Memphis Mike]

You just painted a target on yourself, Dingo; AA folk are true believers. They call "toughening up" "white knuckling." They think that even if you succeed in stopping, even if you become a teetotaler, you will still be a drunk, just a "dry drunk," unless you "get with the program." They will tell you that the only way to stop drinking is to admit you are helpless, that booze is a powerful monster over which you have no control, as opposed to your suggestion that people can in fact control themselves. It never occurred to me before, but now that I put it this way, I think there is a good deal of personification they do, they actuall personify the booze, and then they project on it, its not that booze is just a thing like any thing, its an evil person who wants to beat you up. Strange.

But anyway, if you deny you're a witch, that proves you are a witch. If you are strong enough to simply stop drinking, that makes you a helpless dry drunk, you must bow down before alcohol and admit it is your master, so they say.

Are you an alcoholic, Pat?

[PatCox]

Oh, yes, and if you disagree, you are an alcoholic.

[Memphis Mike]

I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you but maybe we believe the way we do because we've seen millions of cases to support the belief.

I'll also add that life in AA is wonderful. I'm glad I'm an alcoholic. If I wasn't, I never could have experienced it.

Those of us that have been around for awhile know that AA is about unconditional love and acceptance. The only other place I've ever found that is from the family dog.

[brad9798]

Well said, Memphis.

Pat doesn't understand because he has never been there.

One cannot legitimately comment on what one has no clue.

No disrespect meant, Pat.

[TomF]

Father of my best friend in high school was in AA. Said just what you did, MM - "I'm glad I'm an alcoholic." He said that we all have our own major problem to deal with - and he was grateful that he'd recognized his own, and had the tools/support to work with it. My dad (minister) always loved being with AA folks, because they were so much more authentic than most of the rest of us.

That said, a year back I learned that a dear friend of my wife's had stopped drinking entirely on his own - down from a sixpack and a 26 ouncer per day. He's been about 6 years dry now. I certainly wouldn't peg him as a conventional "dry drunk," but I've never met anyone with more willpower. I certainly couldn't do it his way. So it's possible ... but I've only met one like him.

t.

[Keith Wilson]

No need to get into a pissing contest. Some folks who have a drinking problem can quit on their own. Many can't, and have found various methods involving mutual support and assistance helpful. AA has worked for an awful lot of people, according to them. Some may be "true believers", but most I have known were mainly grateful for help with a problem that they couldn't manage on their own. Whatever works, say I.

[PatCox]

I am glad it works for those who need it.

[Kaa]

Those of us that have been around for awhile know that AA is about unconditional love and acceptance. The only other place I've ever found that is from the family dog.

That's a rather sad quote.

Kaa

[LeeG]

That's a rather sad quote.

Kaa

you have something against dogs?

[Memphis Mike]

Again, comments from people that don't understand. Buggar it. I hope that some of you never need the program but if you do, it will be there for you. I'm there to insure that.

[Kaa]

My comment isn't about AA. My comment is about people whose only source of unconditional love and acceptance is AA and a dog.

Kaa

[LeeG]

Kaa, people use the word unconditional love a lot. From my experience what some people call unconditional love turns out to be quite conditional from a childs perspective.

"Children deserve unconditional love." yep,,sure do. But the reality of every childs life is different. What's great about alcohol is that it can create it's own hunger and satisfaction. And you can plant any kind of emotional angst over that.

[LeeG]

Matt, I'll try.

When the first step of solving the addiction is admitting it you keep coming back to that first step. Like walking each step is like the first one, stopping an addiction requires every step starting with the one that says "I'm an..." "I have a ..."
After awhile the step gets you somewhere, after awhile shame is less a part of each step, after awhile gratitude is a part of each step.

But every step started with admission of the problem.

So imagine going from saying "I'm an alcoholic" with a sense of pain and shame to saying "I'm an alcoholic" but the sense is gratitude.

Think of it. It's the same step but it started in shame and it's now taken with gratitude. Same step. How can the same step have such completely different feeling? It's a miracle.

Kind of like reading a kids book,,then you get older an you're reading it to your child. Same book, same words. But the day your child gets the story it's a miracle. Same words, same book. But the meaning is so much greater.

[PatCox]

All this over a classic pavlovian conditioned response to a chemical stimulant. Hey, this feels good, think I'll hit that button again. Amazing how deeply wired those conditioned responses can be, I guess.

I once threw up after drinking too much Jack Daniels, and now 27 years later, the smell of it makes me retch. Thats powerful conditioning. Maybe I can give up drinking by going through all the flavors that way.

[LeeG]

I like Jack Daniels, it was tequila or Pernod that made me throwup.

no reason to give up anything if there's no reason.

One thing not worth experimenting is putting vodka into non-alcoholic beer,,doesn't work,,but it's a clue something isn't right in the head.

[Paul Pless]

All this over a classic pavlovian conditioned response to a chemical stimulant. Hey, this feels good, think I'll hit that button again. Amazing how deeply wired those conditioned responses can be, I guess.


I don't think its quite that simple.

[LeeG]

can be,,what's hysterical is all that grey matter on top of the primitive lizard brain justifying the reward.

[PatCox]

I think a lot of what the human mind perceives as "free will" consists of the mind's rationalizations and explanations for the involuntary behavior it is experiencing. Similar to how dreams are the brain's imagined explanations for sensory inputs during sleep. I am sure that Canada Geese have a similar feeling about migration and think its really free will.

[Memphis Mike]

"I once threw up after drinking too much Jack Daniels, and now 27 years later, the smell of it makes me retch. Thats powerful conditioning. Maybe I can give up drinking by going through all the flavors that way."

That's the difference between you and an alcoholic. The alcoholic will take that first drink of Jack Daniels at 8:00 in the morning and throw up. He takes another and throws that up too and continues the process until he gets a drink to stay down. If it's a fifth, pint whatever, it's gone by 8:30 and he's off and running. Sound pretty extreme? I've done it and I'm not the only one.

All this in an effort just to feel normal.

[Hwyl]

Talk about thread drift. Let's get back to Jack and wishing him luck.

Good luck to MM, Pat Cox and Lee G too. I'm agreeing with Paul Pless on this. I'm sure alcohol dependency is more than pavlovian.

This niggling argument takes away from the eormity of the issue and the overwhelming support being offered to Jack.

Now on with the program.

[Memphis Mike]

Yeah, I agree. I deleted that one post. I was just feeding a troll anyhow.

[Stiletto]

So is there one definition of an alcoholic, or are there more?

[Tom Montgomery]

Alcoholism is a self-diagnosis.

I came to the conclusion that I am alcoholic when I finally admitted to myself that I could not control my drinking. I have a friend who says: "If your alcohol use is causing you problems, then you have a problem with alcohol."

Here is what Alcoholics Anonymous has to say:

Am I an alcoholic?

If you repeatedly drink more than you intend or want to, if you get into trouble, or if you have memory lapses when you drink, you may be an alcoholic. Only you can decide. No one in A.A. will tell you whether you are or not.

From: A newcomer asks (http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.org/en_is_aa_for_you.cfm?PageID=14)

[High C]

A dispassionate observation, genuinely NOT meant to inflame: There's something a great many of us have in common other than our love of wooden boats. Since my first days here I was surprised at how many members here are alcoholic. More and more seem to be admitting it as time goes on.

:confused: I have owned wooden boats that nearly drove me to drink. Is it a wooden boat thing? :eek: :D

I'm genuinely surprised and curious why so many here are alcoholic, and I'm impressed with what appears to be a very high success rate in dealing with it. :)

[Paul Pless]

Alcoholism is a self-diagnosis.


Oh I don't know, I think people, medical professionals, and society, courts, etc, can often diagnose correctly that an individual is an alcoholic or an addict. But, surely that person will never recover unless he admits it to himself.

[Tom Montgomery]

Agreed.

[ishmael]

Hi,

I like the AA definition pretty well. Getting in trouble(in any way, be it financially, emotionally, spiritually or physically) and then doing it over and over in a repeating pattern you can't stop. And it is something only the individual can decide.

The last time I got to this place, a few months ago, I spoke at length with an AA person. Smart cookie. Two Phds, one in law, one in international politics. Vietnam vet, sober thirty years. One thing he said to me when I expressed reservations about some of the, for lack of a better word "cultish" aspects of AA, was that I would find things I liked and things I didn't like, but that the one truly important thing about the experience was being around other people who know, on some basic level, what you are going through . That, and talking to people trying to get sober, was his "Higher Power." I do think it true that until you've been there, you can't know what it's like.

There are all manner of variations in the experience, from the skidrow drunk to the tippling granny zoning out in front of the tube, but that definition: it is out of control, knowing it to the point where you decisively seek help, is a common denominator. Seems to me.

I'm going to a meeting Friday evening.

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
-Anais Nin

P.S. Funny story. My parents were heavy drinkers, but only on the weekends and vacations. By my estimation, however, they fit the definition. It clearly led to emotional problems, and probably contributed to my father's early death, and my mother's early dementia. But the story: Summer afternoon during my adolescence, and the AAA(American Automobile Association) came to the door soliciting new members. I answered the door, and yelled back into the house, "Mom Triple AAA is here!" She came around the corner with a look of utter horror on her face and exclaimed, "My God, how did they find out?!" True story.

P.P.S. The number of people who've PM'd me has been a bit overwhelming, and I'm only running on half my cylinders at the moment. I appreciate all of the notes, and the kind offers to be in touch, but haven't had the energy to get back to all of you. I'll try to in the next few days, but thankyou.

[Tom Montgomery]

The last time I got to this place, a few months ago, I spoke at length with an AA person. Smart cookie. Two Phds, one in law, one in international politics. Vietnam vet, sober thirty years. One thing he said to me when I expressed reservations about some of the, for lack of a better word "cultish" aspects of AA, was that I would find things I liked and things I didn't like, but that the one truly important thing about the experience was being around other people who know, on some basic level, what you are going through . That, and talking to people trying to get sober, was his "Higher Power." I do think it true that until you've been there, you can't know what it's like.It is a simple program for complicated people. The guy you spoke to sounds like a possible sponsor.

[katiedobe]

LOL!!!

"My God, how did they find out?"

Make sure you tell that one at a meeting.

I got into woodenboats because when I had to quit using a friend I worked with saw that I needed to do something with my free time now that I was not going to be chasing the bottle and baggie all the time. He sold me a 14' wooden day sailer that needed work. Man that boat and AA saved my life. Loved that boat and learned a lot. Started me off on a woodworking career that has me now living in a lakefront house on a tropical laguna in Mexico making wooden boats. Been clean since Sept 4th, 1989. Been clean more years than I drank. I never could have dreamed of the rewards I have recieved when I was in my early years of recovery.


Quit goin to meetings about 8 years ago. When I became a "productive member of society". Meetings were not the place for me to work on my spiritual connection anymore. Meetings are good for some and the life stye and family-ness of it is great but not for everyone all the time. I do miss getting a hug from a big man though. I think it has something to do with not being hugged by my dad as a kid, something I missed out on back then.

Good luck and peace and love to you all.

[brad9798]

Ish, your higher power can be the TV or a freaking door knob ... AA does not discriminate.

Me, my final sober date was 9/17/04. The date of my third and LAST DUI.

Had a year hear and there ... several months here and there ... but the past two+ years I rule the world again (relatively speaking, of course).

I don't love or need AA ... it was a tool, a means to an end for me ... don't go to many meetings anymore ... but contemplate everyday to stay sober.

BELIEVE ME, as Ish and several others know, I STILL dream of being able to have a few ... hell even six, eight, or 10 really.

UNREALISTIC for me.

12-pack? Hardly a buzz ... then it was time for the 5th of vodka ... then perhaps a ride to the gas station to pick up six more beers ...

No exaggeration either ... then booze quit working ... so it was time for more illicit drugs ... then they quit working ... and I got tired of bullet holes in ME, and stab wounds on bad 'deals...'

Thank GOD I had a wife and three kids ... otherwise I'd be sucking d*ck in Key West to get high. :(

All behind me now, as long as I pay attention to it.

[glenallen]

Ah, this kind of thread justifies the time I spend here.
Fun to watch people realize their possibilities.

Kaitedobe and brad9798, your posts are a drunk-cure in a nutshell.
Good medicine!!!!!

[Sue H.]

Best of luck to you, Jack. It's a long haul with a lot of bumps in the road, but well worth the journey.

My perspective on Mike's "AA . . . and the family dog" comment is this:

When he was deep into his drinking and just a wreck, I was ready to leave him - it was just too painful to watch anymore - but the dog would have stayed no matter what. But Mike knows I love him. :)

All the best Jack. We're plugging for ya!

[brad9798]

I HOPE You're being legitimate, glenallen!

Are you?

[Phil Heffernan]

Hi,

I like the AA definition pretty well. Getting in trouble(in any way, be it financially, emotionally, spiritually or physically) and then doing it over and over in a repeating pattern you can't stop. And it is something only the individual can decide.

"We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."
-Anais Nin



Ish, if it helps...I gotta tell ya: your recent posts are so much more believable...and readable...I guess sober is better, for a writer :cool:

High C asked about the high incidence of alcoholics among wooden boat folk...I think being fearless, creative, non conformist risk takers has something to do with it :D

Though I'd have to say there are no doubt more people with alcohol addiction issues in the gen pop that meet the eye :(

It's a drug, and one that is promoted by one of the greatest advertising machines on the planet..."It's MILLER Time!"

PH

[geeman]

Jack, I was late finding out about this, sorry.
I hope you fair well and wish you the best!!!!!

[glenallen]

I HOPE You're being legitimate, glenallen!

Are you?

You bet, brad! I'd never use an issue like this to make a selfish point or a joke. And I care about Jack eventhough I don't know him.

I do admire people who who bring control and allow peace into their lives.
We're not just leaves blown before a wind, as some say. We're the brains of the outfit!

I do understand the difficulty some have with that concept and I congratulate anyone who pilots his own ship with a clear head.

[brad9798]

Thank you, glenallen! :)

[Memphis Mike]

I do wish you well, Jack. I'm sorry for some of the things I've said to you. At times I haven't practiced the principles I try to live by but that's only because I've been really frustrated with you.

I think you're going to find everything you've been looking for in AA..........including a woman.;) :D But not just yet. Give it some time.

[Chris Coose]

Jack, Eddington Bend tonight 7 PM used to be one I'd get to when I lived on MDI. I was just looking for what used to be the Brewer Weds. "closed" meeting http://www.aamaine.org/ and I don't see that one anymore.
Last I was in Bangor I stopped by the club near the river and it seemed pretty dreary.
I have this crazy (crazy just like you) philosophy professor friend who teaches at UMO who is active in AA. He is good at staying sober and helping others.

High, When I look at the waterfront I see a lot of active drunks. Makes sense we'd be attracted to this type of activity. It may be just proportional what gets exibited here or it may just be that those of us who keep wood boats are likely to solve the problems that face us.

For this business of self-diagnosis.
Some thoughts on alcoholism (which was a condition that I watched kill both my parents) as a progressive and fatal medical condition. It is one of the very few medical conditions that is best treated by self diagnosis and then most of the treatment is that performed by the afflicted. Which makes it pretty unusual and mostly left alone by medical practicioners because of these less than scientific means of finding remission.

Pat C is a great example why Anonymous is the second word in AA.
AA got started in 1935 and has helped millions of people world wide. There was no organization that worked prior to it and nothing as well since. On its track record alone, it proves its worth.
Understanding how it works is the mystery that seperates the real alcoholic from all the rest of drinkers. It is no mystery to the alcoholic who would come to AA and find benefit from being a member.

[huisjen]

Seeing this makes the time I spend here all worth while.
I shed tears of joy for Jack Heinlen. May his road to recovery be smooth from here on.
I love you all.

Dan

[jack grebe]

Seeing this makes the time I spend here all worth while.
I shed tears of joy for Jack Heinlen. May his road to recovery be smooth from here on.
I love you all.

Danand you have seemed to turn a new leaf also Dan. ......concidering your past posts toward Ish.....Good for you:cool:

[Popeye]

growing up , we had a neighbour who suffered from alcoholism , he would hide a flask in his garden under a pile of dirt and when nobody was watching would go dig it up for a couple of swigs and then bury it again

highly motivated , successful sales rep and otherwise a genuine sincere man, but i guess booze won in the end

[huisjen]

and you have seemed to turn a new leaf also Dan. ......concidering your past posts toward Ish.....Good for you:cool:

My position has changed only in that I got what I wanted for/from him, but yes, this should change our interactions significantly.

Dan

[jack grebe]

To quote an old preacher

Hate the sin, not the sinner;)

[huisjen]

Exactly.

Dan

[Wild Dingo]

You just painted a target on yourself, Dingo; AA folk are true believers. They call "toughening up" "white knuckling." They think that even if you succeed in stopping, even if you become a teetotaler, you will still be a drunk, just a "dry drunk," unless you "get with the program." They will tell you that the only way to stop drinking is to admit you are helpless, that booze is a powerful monster over which you have no control, as opposed to your suggestion that people can in fact control themselves. It never occurred to me before, but now that I put it this way, I think there is a good deal of personification they do, they actuall personify the booze, and then they project on it, its not that booze is just a thing like any thing, its an evil person who wants to beat you up. Strange.

But anyway, if you deny you're a witch, that proves you are a witch. If you are strong enough to simply stop drinking, that makes you a helpless dry drunk, you must bow down before alcohol and admit it is your master, so they say.


The thing is Pat I honestly believe IF we take control of our lives take ownership of who and what we are and see clearly what is making our lives suck.. to actually see what we personally are doing wrong... to understand that our own behaviour is the main if not only contributor to why our lives suck or otherwise go off the rails be it drugs booze nymphomania whatever and the IF WE TRUELY HONESTLY seek to change that for OUR OWN betterment we can do it...

IF we have can find within ourselves the determination strength and personal will power to say NO and MEAN IT and "stay the course" as they say then we can overcome ANYTHING

Does that mean Im sayin theres no place for AA in the world? HELL NO! God just as there will always be drunks druggies and nymphos in this world of ours so to will there always be a need for such as AA.

People can face their demons the best way for them the one way that works and if thats through the auspices of AA then good on them... IF it works... if it doesnt then theyre gonna be worse for the experience due to guilt/failure and internalizing that guilt/failure.... but thats the same if one chooses to go it alone as well

The time it takes as can be seen by some of the posts above can be as little as a few years or as long as a score or more years and sometimes for their lifetime... whatever it takes.

I personally chose myself over AA and won... although some would say Ive now become an active drunk again since Im drinking OCCASIONALLY nowadays (and have control over it) but that to me is just like the stupidity of religious fools who say that because one no longer attends a "church" one is a backslider... which as is as I say bullshyte as one can get closer and a deaper relationship with "god" without any form of religious doctrine or theology being pumped down their throat every weekend... the same with the booze one CAN control it... but it unlike walking away from formal religion is a harder task to achieve but it is doable.

You have to WANT to change... not admit publicly but admit to YOURSELF that you have a problem then work to resolve it... not rely on others to help and hold your hand but to stand up on your own two feet and consciously decide and take a chance on yourself to take responsibility for YOU.

Jack mate go to AA and take from them everything you can and be sober the differences and achievements you will attain for yourself will be brilliant for you... seriously mate I wish you all the best as I do any that decide to attend a meeting such as AA to help them sort their lives out... all Im trying to say in my less than adequate way is each to their own and at some point in our lives we HAVE TO take responsibility and ownership of OUR OWN problems face up to them and defeat/recover/conquor whatever you choose to enable us to move forward.

We can overcome and achieve ANY obsticle or goal in our lives... IF WE CHOOSE TO!... of course then we have to have the gonads the guts the determination the wherewithall and the self will to do so and that as they say is a whole other kettle of fish

All the best to all

[Osborne Russell]

I have to agree. AA at times appears disturbingly like a cult, based on the debasement of the individual.

Alcohol and drugs are not demons. There are no demons. Demon-slayers are liars.

[Chris Coose]

Alcohol and drugs are not demons.
That is right but when I toss a couple into me I become demonic and like Dr. Jeckyl I have lit up a brain function that allows Henry Hyde to come to the front and might not let go.
No drinking is the only safe drinking for Chris Coose.
Membership at AA has fortified this remission and has offered a path to clear the original deamons I found drinking absloved. Therefore, making continued remission a pleasure rather than a burden.

Anybody who would tell you that AA is the only way to go or that a sober drunk not going to AA is a "dry" person hasn't been around long enough to really guage other people's experiences. They usually come around in time.
They would be the folks that would make AA appear as a cult.

I heard this gem early on.
" I don't want to wear my recovery as a hair shirt. I want to wear it like a lose garment."

Great message Dan H. It's all about love.

[Popeye]

i love you too man

[Tom Montgomery]

IF we take control of our lives take ownership of who and what we are and see clearly what is making our lives suck.. to actually see what we personally are doing wrong... to understand that our own behaviour is the main if not only contributor to why our lives suck or otherwise go off the rails be it drugs booze nymphomania whatever and the IF WE TRUELY HONESTLY seek to change that for OUR OWN betterment we can do it... This sounds like a fair synopsis of AA's Steps #1 through 10.... or at least my understanding of them. ;)

As for AA being cult-like.... I've never been involved in a cult so I can't really say. I do know that no one forces me to attend meetings or to believe anything I do not believe. They do invite me to keep coming back. And I've been told that if I decide AA is not for me, they will be happy to refund my misery. :D

AA is about not drinking, one day at a time, and support.... one alcoholic helping another. As for the rest of it, I take what I like and leave the rest.

[Tom Montgomery]

Anybody who would tell you that AA is the only way to go or that a sober drunk not going to AA is a "dry" person hasn't been around long enough to really gauge other people's experiences. They usually come around in time.
They would be the folks that would make AA appear as a cult....

It's all about love.Yes.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

With my handle, its a bit hard to comment.
Gareth (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=59909#33) made the summary.

[Wild Dingo]

This sounds like a fair synopsis of AA's Steps #1 through 10.... or at least my understanding of them. ;) Then if thats so Tom why does one need AA? If one ALREADY has the synopsis of AAs tenents within them?


As for AA being cult-like.... I've never been involved in a cult so I can't really say. I do know that no one forces me to attend meetings or to believe anything I do not believe.

I personally dont think AA is cult like but rather crutch like... you give up one crutch (the booze) for another (the group) sorta like the crutch that organized religion offers over life but I digress ;)... But again Im not putting it down although it may sound like it I guess I do think they have a very valid place in the world and do good things for people and good on em for it... I just tend to think if people want to get their **** together they ALREADY have it within them to do so they have to own their problems whatever they are they have to take responsibility for their problems whatever they are and take control of their problems to overcome them... but then some people need help doing so and thats where AA fits in I guess


They do invite me to keep coming back. And I've been told that if I decide AA is not for me, they will be happy to refund my misery. :D

Thanks for the smile!! Now thats a great quote! :cool:


AA is about not drinking, one day at a time, and support.... one alcoholic helping another. As for the rest of it, I take what I like and leave the rest.

So you make choices you take ownership of what YOU like and leave the rest alone? Why not take ownership compleately and do what you know inside you have to do to take responsibility for your choices ie: to drink or not to drink... why do you need another person with what could potentially be a worse drinking problem than your own "supporting" encouraging you to not drink?

Honestly mate Im trying to figure this one out... and remember I was an alcohol and drug counsellor for many years its just something I could never fathom

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I have to agree. AA at times appears disturbingly like a cult, based on the debasement of the individual.

Alcohol and drugs are not demons. There are no demons. Demon-slayers are liars.


OK I should chime in.

NUMBER ONE !!!!
Ish I'm pulling for you whatever it takes man whateverit takes. I also agree with Phil this is some of your finest writing on the forum, clear conscience and just good feelings to it. You have my total support.

#2 MMike ya my boy and you know i love ya as much as yer dog loves ya. ;) I also know how well AA has worked for you and THATS the #1 thing it works for you. I support it 100%

OK and finally #3 To me personally AA is VERY much like a cult. I've mentioned this in open forum before so no big deal. But Lisa my now separated wife is in the program. LORD ALIVE if that was not a bone between us. I was and am 100% supportive I always made it easy fro her to go to any meetings she wanted 1, 2, 3, 4 meetings a week. I would look after Tess and be cool about it. But WHOA I was expected because THE MOST important thing in her life was her sobriety. Well ya know I get that but geeezus come on. :rolleyes: Also the OTHER people in AA WHOA :rolleyes: some real winners there. They NEED the meetings THATS their WHOLE social LIFE. They got the coins the T shirts, the coffee mugs, bumper stickers, They speak in slogans, if ya ever ask them how ya doing they always respond "One Day at a time :rolleyes: What also gets me is all these members who just share the same problem of drinking become your BEST friend. I would hear these names of people I have never met and they would be her BEST friend. Im like OK how long as this person been your BEST friend. " Oh well they have only just been sober for 90 days, I'm trying to be there for them. " :rolleyes: Or so and so is my BEST friend she gave such a honest emotional share last night. Geezus h keeerist, I like wooden boats but I don't like ALL of you and I wouldn't call ALL of you my BEST friends.

Oh and the other thing I love oooooh I GOT to get to a meeting :rolleyes: What like your gonna EXPLODE if you dont that you are going to pick up that bottle of lacquer and drink it. COME on if you are ALWAYS on the verge of slipping you need a lot more than a freaking meeting GET A GRIP.

Ok so I'm ranting about the Cult and I do see a lot of truth in what Pat has written there is you are either an AA convert or a Dry Drunk there is no other option.

Hey but now that my rant is over I still wish all those in the program total sobriety and I know what a demon it can be. I do believe it is a disease I just gag a bit on the cult of AA

[Bob Adams]

Hey, for many, AA works. If you think it'll help, go for it. Recovering from alcoholism is a battle, use whatever weapon works for you. If you are not fighting the battle, don't ridicule those who are.

[huisjen]

Speaking as one who grew up in a cult, literally, I don't see AA being a cult.

Dan

[katiedobe]

I kinda agree with you Joe. I drifted away from regular meetings years ago. I did not enjoy being a sponser. I got tired of missing other events because I had to go to a meeting on that day.
But when I first got clean I did a meeting every single night for over a year. I got involved with people who did not use. To use a slogan I "changed my playmates, playgrounds, and playthings." AA as a community made that simple. Do I still need that? Today I do not. But I have many close friends who still go to a meeting one day a week, I just don't go to that meeting with them. They are happy, productive, sober members of society, and so am I. We do a lot of other things together, like sail and camp and fish and hunt.

As for Dingo drinking and controling his drinking I will speak blasphemously according to AA dogma.
I am glad he can do that. Or as a friend from NZ says, "Good on ya mate!"

I probably could do it, but I choose not to. Not because I belive the AA party line or because I am afraid of the bottle.


I look at it the way I look at gambling, "what can I afford to risk losing in order to enjoy a good time?"

I go into casino's with $250 US Dollars, no credit cards just my ID. When the money is gone I leave. I had a good time.

Now drinking or using a little pot... Hmmm. I figure it is like putting all the wonderful things I own, my wife, the friends, and the great experiences I have and will get to have on one number on the roullette wheel and spinning it.

If the number I choose comes up I win the ability to drink and use and control it.

But if I lose.....
No way. Not thinkable. The winnings are not worth the value that I am betting.

Plus it is cheaper not drinking beer or smoking pot or Cigs. Not to mention the risk of Jail or Killing another person while driving drunk. Just for a beer?

But that is my choice, it is not because AA says that once you start to drink again you WILL fall back into the bad place you were before you stopped.

I wish only good luck to you all.
Love and peace,
Jimmy

[Chris Coose]

I love it when Joe tells us how he really feels.:D

Keep coming back.:eek:

[Wild Dingo]

Jimmy great post mate thank you

Choice... everything you speak of reverts back to YOUR CHOICE... choice with the drink choice with gambling choice with money choice period... I thank whatever gods there are that people make the choice to go to AA if they believe it will help them I also thank the gods that there are those who give a shyte enough about others to want to help them and I also thank the gods that some are strong or whatever enough to do it for themselves as has been said "whatever it takes it takes"

I wasnt putting myself on any sort of pedistal Im trying to understand the importance people put upon surrendering their own choices to others at AA meetings. Have no fear as a counsellor if a person wanted or considered AA as a viable option to them then thats where Id take them personally Id drop them off at a meeting and still be there to pick them up after it... sometimes it was good sometimes shyte and it often surprised me how some people reacted to meetings.

Chris mate what Joe expressed Ive seen and Ive seen marriages break apart because of that dependancy on AA and the sponsor... sadly its not that unusual

[Chris Coose]

As for Dingo drinking and controling his drinking I will speak blasphemously according to AA dogma.
I am glad he can do that. Or as a friend from NZ says, "Good on ya mate!"



No blasphemy at all.
" If anyone who is showing inability to control his drinking can do the right-about -face and drink like a gentleman, our hats are off to him."
Alcoholics Anonymous (the Big Book) page 31.

Futher on in the page.
" We do not like to pronounce any individual as alcoholic, but you can quickly diagnose yourself. Step over to the nearest barroom and try some controlled drinking. Try it more than once. it will not take long for you to decide, if you are honest with yourself about it."

This is the writing that keeps AA from becoming a cult.
We tell you to go drink for crisakes!
These two lines may be some of the most liberating and important information in the book. Some don't get it for a while.

[TomF]

...I don't like ALL of you and I wouldn't call ALL of you my BEST friends... I'm crushed. Crushed.:D

Just to take a metaphor and bend it all out of recognition .....

A crutch isn't such a bad thing if your leg's been mangled. Depending on the injury, some folks' legs leave them using a crutch all their lives. Others don't. While I agree that we should, to the extent possible, strive to heal enough that we can walk mostly unaided ... I'm glad that crutches exist for those who need them.

[Tar Devil]

My drinking became habitual... every night a glass or two. A form of self-medication. Cheryl increasingly voiced her concern. Then Oct 28 we went to a halloween party with plenty of booze. I got pretty soused, then someone came by with some jello shooters, one of which pretty much rendered me non-functional. I sat outside on the porch for the rest of the night until Cheryl drove us home.

Next morning Cheryl unconditionally labeled me an alcoholic. I've never considered myself one, since I never drank and drove, rarely ever got drunk (parties and free booze were a sure binge), never missed a days work or an appointment because of drinking... you get the picture. I had my drink or two (sometimes three) every evening before bed and that was that.

Anyway, I walked to the kitchen, poured out the one bottle in my cabinet and haven't had a drop of licquor since. I have had a couple of beers... nothing else. Hasn't been a struggle, don't feel like I fighting a demon, don't really miss it all that much. There are some nights I'd like to numb myself from my surroundings, but I have my own room in the house for that.

I dunno... am I?

Later,

Phil

[Wild Dingo]

So... gawd I can be a right argumentative little bastard sometimes :o :D

but so...

AA tells their members to go to the bar and try controlled drinking?... interesting

Yet if one takes control of their drinking "problem" as such and changes ones lifestyle ones drink "triggers" ones routes to and from places so as to bypass pubs taverns bars bottle shops and puts in place methods to say to themselves and others "THANKS BUT I DONT DRINK"... is that wrong? should that person instead say "Go have a drink and control it".. I doubt ANYONE could achieve non drinking let alone controlled drinking in those circumstances... but give that same person a year maybe two hell maybe 15 like it took me of constant reaffirming to themselves and others that I DONT DRINK and put in place the methods and ways of avoiding and not being around it THEN one can walk into a pub bar tavern bottle shop and be incontrol... not drink at all if they choose have one if they choose have two then walk out without being further tempted BECAUSE they can control it... THEY HAVE DONE IT...

I continue to believe that each of us have within us the ability to contol our own lives and the ability to control the choices we make... we may well in the cases of addiction have to take control and change our lives workplaces environments whatever to achieve that control but we can do it... IF WE WANT TO! and if we beleive we can.

And that I think is the crux of this... we may want to and we may even believe in some small degree that we can do it but we need someone else to "guide" support and encourage us not to... and therein is my difficulty with it... why? Why cant we just take control of our OWN lives? Why must people feel the need to rely upon others to help assist guide them? It is OUR lives WE must own our own life to control our own life NO ONE else can live it for us 24/7 no one can be there 352 days a year (or however many there are) no one other than OURSELVES... therefore who best to assist guide and support ouselves BUT ourselves?

Okay I will stop now and just say

To all those "on the program" good luck to you and I truely hope you attain sobriety... to all those not but wish to attain sobriety I truely hope you also obtain it... but to all of us... Have belief in YOU before you hand over control of your life and what you do to someone else

[Chris Coose]

A crutch isn't such a bad thing if your leg's been mangled. Depending on the injury, some folks' legs leave them using a crutch all their lives. Others don't. While I agree that we should, to the extent possible, strive to heal enough that we can walk mostly unaided ... I'm glad that crutches exist for those who need them.

It wasn't so much my legs as my brain and I required a thorough brain washing.
Now I am nearly 20 years sober .... imagine after all this time in recovery, being who I am today, what I must have been like when I was really sick!:D

Yikes!
I'd have been tossed off this forum in my first post.

[Chris Coose]

Pretty simple Dingo.
The alcoholic cannot control his /her drinking.
If you can control your drinking you are not alcoholic and therefore, no need to go to AA.
The last place in the world to be if you are not alcoholic is at an AA meeting.
That is why it is suggested you go try drinking and cull yourself from potential membership.

[Wild Dingo]

Phil... mate thats what I was trying to say... choices... you made the choice that was right for you and havent looked back sure youve considered it from time to time but you havent done it... one day like me perhaps you may again but next time you will have control and even those parties wont mean a thing you will simply drink what you want to drink and stop and therefore have control over it... before it was there it was drunk it was offered it was accepted and drunk until there was nothing left see you had no control over it it in a way controlled you in that you would drink till there was no more end of story... binge drinking is the worst type of drinking

It was different though somewhat similar for me with Jo preparing to walk out with the hoons that finally almost decided me but not quite see back then I enjoyed drinking and it was the done thing especially in the work I did... it was only after a particularily big binge when I was away from home working that finally led to me seeing a doc and I suddenly had a hell of a wake up call... so between the two things I loved most in life (Jo and the hoons and breathing) I gained the motivation to stop and I did... no real hassle other than the occasional time in the early years when someone would offer me a beer and although tempted Id say No thanks I dont drink before I could think or say anything else I made it a sort of mantra if I heard the words Id say the words... then even the asking stopped... after that there were no problems whatever.

I believe you took control of your life and determined that you would not drink therefore YOU control YOUR drinking you took responsibility for your own actions and didnt put yourself into someone elses control to do so.

Sorry Chris cross posting mate
Cheers for that... so based on what you say I was an alcoholic? okay I can agree with that no problem... but doesnt AA say that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic? and that one should never take a drink EVER because one will return to ones alcoholic ways? I may be wrong with that but I think Im on the right track

If thats true then I guess Im an alcoholic again? but that cant be true because I can now control it... so how does that work?

[paladin]

damn, Phil...I feel like that all the time....so I make a cup of coffee...have a cookie and a glass of milk...take a hot shower.....and draw pictures....:D

[LeeG]

$.02, I couldn't get sober through AA. I don't come from a religious background and the initial exposure just didn't work. Took a half year of twice weekly meetings through HMO after five years of 'managing' from the first sporadic meetings. Then a three beer relapse after 6mo of no alcohol taught me a few things. I'd have to go back drinking big time to find the comfort/fog cuz three beers did NOTHING except open a window into the grey world I thought was normal. It took 6mo of sobriety to see it wasn't inevitable that I'd go back to drinking but that I couldn't do it alone. I was two months out of the HMO program and I put on the first b-day for my daughters as a non-drinker. Friends brought over beer and left some behind. I could have poured the beer out and I didn't. There were going to be a lot more other gatherings in my life so I had to figure this out.
It took a move across the country and another year after that three beer "experiment" to realize I HAD to be around people who were trying not to drink becuse it takes more than a year to change 20yrs of a particular way of living. After a couple years of being a regular I didn't feel the need to go to meetings regularly.
I've read that sobriety of five years is sufficient to stop the cycle like someone who's X years from a prostrate cancer diagnosis and treatment but the thing is,,why do it?

re. AA and cult like status. It originated from a particular time of the 1900s in the US so it's got the language of the period. I have no problem with people being adament about saying what works FOR THEM. The thing is that after a long while people who have a drinking problem tend to say the same things about why it's not a problem, or someone elses problem and folks who have stopped can see that bs a mile away. That's why it's awfully important for folks to listen and shut the f*ck up for once in their life when drinking isn't working. The most significant thing I noticed and mentioned by others is greater clarity in boundaries. The solvent disolves those boundaries to the core of ones being, on a level that logic and reasoning reside UPON. If your core says "this woman/man is IT" you'll find the means to be with that person. If your core says "drink, I am thirsty" you WILL drink. How that drinking is manifested is whole other issue but once the lizard brain is trained to the bath of solvent it's going to seek it and reward it like food or sex.

I don't think the medical model is totally accurate or personifying of a solvent as evil is accurate. But if something works who cares how you dress it up. There's more than one configuration for moving through the water by wind power.

[Tom Montgomery]

So you make choices you take ownership of what YOU like and leave the rest alone? Why not take ownership compleately and do what you know inside you have to do to take responsibility for your choices ie: to drink or not to drink... why do you need another person with what could potentially be a worse drinking problem than your own "supporting" encouraging you to not drink?

Honestly mate Im trying to figure this one out... and remember I was an alcohol and drug counsellor for many years its just something I could never fathom.Hi Shane. Here's how I view it: I make a choice every day whether or not to have a drink. Today I've chosen not to have a drink. I don't know about tomorrow.... it hasn't arrived yet.

I take ownership of my own problem. I know people with adult-onset diabetes who have taken ownership of their problem and control it with medication and diet. I have known others who did not take ownership of their problem and were not careful with their diet -- leading to bad consequences. I see my alcoholism much the same way.

As for the aspect of support. Believe me.... in my early years of sobriety I NEEDED the support of others who had been where I was. I continue to attend AA meetings in large measure out of a sense of gratitude.... I was helped, perhaps I can now help another by sharing my experience, strength and hope.

Are there sick people in AA? Of course there are. As there are in any group. I was advised early on to "stick with the winners." The implication is that not everyone in the room is a winner. Frankly, the kind of people characterized by Joe in his post are the sort I've steered clear of. A big part of my recovery has been about trying to create some balance in my life. The people who have helped me most have encouraged that.

No one else's drinking is any of my business. Alcohol is legal and most people can drink without it becoming a compulsion. If you can drink without negative consequences, that's great. I have learned that I cannot.

My brother visited me over the Christmas holiday. He drank several beers while visiting me. No problem so long as he doesn't put a gun to my head and pour it down my throat.

[Memphis Mike]

It's plain and simple, Dingo. If you can control your drinking and be happy with the amount you consume, you are not an alcoholic.

If you are an alcoholic, you will eventually lose control again.

[Popeye]

my shoes match my belt

[Popeye]

is it too late?

[Osborne Russell]

It's unlike a cult in that it doesn't have a leader.

Its like a cult in that for many people, it's an identity, specifically, a group identity, which gives them a rationalization for aggression against outsiders and backsliders.

[LeeG]

Osborne, I don't find that group identity to be so well defined that it is able to do anything other than show up regularly. I have seen circling of the wagons by some people and seen folks who can reach outside the circle. On the whole if a person can't get what they want out of it there are other options.

[Phil Heffernan]

OK I should chime in.

What also gets me is all these members who just share the same problem of drinking become your BEST friend. I would hear these names of people I have never met and they would be her BEST friend. Im like OK how long as this person been your BEST friend. " Oh well they have only just been sober for 90 days, I'm trying to be there for them. " :rolleyes: Or so and so is my BEST friend she gave such a honest emotional share last night. Geezus h keeerist, I like wooden boats but I don't like ALL of you and I wouldn't call ALL of you my BEST friends.



It's the power of confession that creates such bonds, and makes AA so appealing to so many (and so effective)...

When you lay down your defenses, and confess your failures to a room full of friends and strangers...It's a unique, and very cathartic experience...You feel very close to the whole room, and strangely empowered...It's somewhat addictive, I betcha...

PH

PS, It's kinda what Ish did here...

[Chris Coose]

Its like a cult in that for many people, it's an identity, specifically, a group identity, which gives them a rationalization for aggression against outsiders and backsliders.

I hope that is not demonstrated by the members who have responded here. Because we are here keeping Jack (and anybody else who may be questioning a problem) in mind.
AA is about attraction and not promotion.
We would talk up about an organization that has saved our lives, naturally.

[Katherine]

I got to regular support group meetings for some stuff in my life. While some members get very VERY involved in the group thing, I tend to be one of the more reserved members. However going to the meetings for the past few years has been a tremendous help to me. There is something to be said for spending time with people who have gone through what you're going through. I've also found that regularly checking in with the group helps me stay on track for myself.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

It's the power of confession that creates such bonds, and makes AA so appealing to so many (and so effective)...

When you lay down your defenses, and confess your failures to a room full of friends and strangers...It's a unique, and very cathartic experience...You feel very close to the whole room, and strangely empowered...It's somewhat addictive, I betcha...

PH

PS, It's kinda what Ish did here...

Naaaaaa I aint buying it.

Both AA & Booze have a similar quality.
It's just another form of packaging. Just like two stew-bums sitting just stools apart from one another at the end of a bar who have never met become BEST buddies by the end of the night and the end of the bottle. Or Two AA converts all holding hands and sharing who have never met become BEST buddies by the end of the night and the empty coffee pot. Same thing different package.

[Chris Coose]

Sorry Chris cross posting mate
Cheers for that... so based on what you say I was an alcoholic? okay I can agree with that no problem... but doesnt AA say that once an alcoholic always an alcoholic? and that one should never take a drink EVER because one will return to ones alcoholic ways? I may be wrong with that but I think Im on the right track

If thats true then I guess Im an alcoholic again? but that cant be true because I can now control it... so how does that work?

I wear two hats.
One, is as a treatment provider which would include diagnosis and seeing you live on about the exact opposite of this earth I am hesitant to Bill Frist you. (he's the senator who made a diagnosis on a severly brain damaged citizen who was embroiled on a right to die case recently).
Even then with people in my office I like to work it so they come to their own diagnosis. As I said best treatment is worked with self-diagnosis.
Second as an active (2-4meetings per week) AA member I would not declare you alcoholic under any circumstance. In the literature they describe heavy drinkers who by way of significant changes and choices they are able to return to moderate or controlled drinking. Maybe that is what you were/are. I don't know.
In my case a return to drinking is, to this day, a danger that I will not afford.
I have seen many professed alcoholics return to drinking and a few have found success and fine living. For the most part they return to powerlessness and unmanageable living in short order. A lot of drunks have returned to AA recently (the past couple of months) by way of abuse of prescription drugs.

As my buddy Carl used to say, "I must know exactly what happens to Carl once I throw a drink into myself, nobody else."

[Chris Coose]

Naaaaaa I aint buying it.

Both AA & Booze have a similar quality.


There is this great scene in the movie "My name is Bill W." where sober Bill Wilson (James Woods) and Bob Smith (James Garner) are walking arm in arm down Main St. in Akron , OH.
They spy across the street in an allyway one drunk leaning over to pick another up off the ground.
There is an immediate identity and their new understandings that because of their "packaging" they are in a marvelous position to help the wet guys.
The two sober guys go on to create AA and make great lives for themselves.
Two alcoholics on bar stools do not have bright futures.

Also remember there is no charge whatsoever for the service. AA declines outside contributions. Name me another cult of that economy.

[Meerkat]

AA declines outside contributions. Name me another cult of that economy.Scientology, and their offspring Narconon. They just leech off their adherents (Narconon may take outside money, I don't know for sure).

[Dryer lint]

all the best to you Jack. i was one of the few defending him when all you ass wipes were berating him constantly. now he says he is a new man- swearing off the demon rum and you all flock to him like bees to honey, because (sic) "all you really wanted for him was to save himself." what a bunch of self serving arse holes. jacks got few friends here and i am one of them, because i dont need him to conform to my view of what his life should be, to offer my friendship

while i dont doubt that people can get into ruts with their alcohol consumption habits, quitting drinking is not the end all for leading a productive life. some peole will sit on their arses and watch the world go by whether sober, drunk or in between. there have been countless high functioning drinkers thoughout history.

and now with the evidence that a few cups of coffee every day restore your liver to health, i think the deleterous health effects are vastly over rated

if someone wants to call themselves an alcoholic and go on the wagon more power to them, but the idea that anyone who has a few high balls a day is a hopeless drunk, is ludicrous

[Wild Dingo]

tadang tadang dang da dang!! And along comes lint the legandary all knowing always right best buddy to all dryer lint who never ever ever never puts anyone down stands firm alongside his mates of which Jack is of course his number uno bestest buddy whilst we of course in his estimation are assholes and ass wipes :rolleyes:

So show me one person whos posted who isnt encouraging him? Even Joe with his posts still maintains a sincereity that Jack achieves the help he craves... not one has negated what Jacks doing nor anyone else that is using AA to get on the wagon and stay there

Interestingly with the contents of the posts above all of them the one thing that is clear to at least me... is the willingness of the posters to listen share and learn... including me! well okay Joe doesnt because of his experiences and thats his choice BUT he still wishes Jack well

Sooo... why assholes? I mean yeah many of us have had a go at Jack from time to time I guess we hoped that maybe we could help him move on from what appeared to be a stagnant life so we would have a go at him to help move him along... didnt work eh? ah well... some of us had issues with him and some of his posts personally I did but as adults we put those issues to one side to help a fellow and encourage him.

Take a break from the name calling and other bullshyte for awhile you will find its quite easy then take a break from thinking your own shyte dont stink and its quite an eye opener the amount of people who may well not use the one single word even I was tempted to use upon seeing your post

that being

fart

ps... mind you if were all assholes then that makes you the largest asshole on the board... or...

pss... no I didnt take that personal just couldnt see a reason for the slader shyte on this thread which so far has been supportive informative and encouraging for Jack and others

psss... thanks for the insight into AA fellas

[jack grebe]

all the best to you Jack.shoulda stopped there dutch

[Chris Coose]

jacks got few friends here and i am one of them,
Another thing Jack'll have to work on now that he isn't taking a drug that ruins brain function.

[Tom Montgomery]

I was wondering when Dutch would weigh in. Predictably contrarian.

[Phil Heffernan]

Naaaaaa I aint buying it.

Both AA & Booze have a similar quality.
It's just another form of packaging. Just like two stew-bums sitting just stools apart from one another at the end of a bar who have never met become BEST buddies by the end of the night and the end of the bottle. Or Two AA converts all holding hands and sharing who have never met become BEST buddies by the end of the night and the empty coffee pot. Same thing different package.

Joe, you so ain't gettin' it.

In both cases, people interact. The 2 stewbums feel a closeness that lasts as long as the buzz, and most likely feel awkward around each other the next day (What did I say, anyway?)...

In a caring sober environment, the confession and the testimony are taken to heart by the 2 ex-stewbums, and they feel a continuing bond that lasts, and is, quite often, built upon outside of the AA rooms...

That's the dif, bro, and you shouldn't knock it till ya tried it
PH
;)

[LeeG]

He can't buy it

[Dryer lint]

Hi fellows.



I'll try to check in occasionally/regularly. I've still got some pretty raw emotions about some of the stuff that happened here, and it feels like re-opening a wound to spend much time here at the moment.



Ish

jack sees through all your phonieness- hes just too nice a fellow to call your arses on it- should i start pulling up quotes from some of the stuff you said about him?:mad: just once id like to see you all admit you were friggin jerks and apologise instead of these lame ass excuses for why you were insufferably mean spirited to a guy a bit down in the mouth

[glenallen]

"just once id like to see you all admit you were friggin jerks"..... fuzzball

You first, friggin jerk !

[Wild Dingo]

What so your saying lint that cause ol Jack posts that hes finally going to get some help that hes finally realized he needs and is therefore going to an AA meeting that somehow that makes every single f***ed up thing hes said and implied over the last few years okay? GET A BLOODY GRIP!!

As adults lint we have our spats call each other out over things hell even ignore each other from time to time... we apologize if we do in private simply because its none of your F****n business if we do or dont... generally you if you bloody chose to friggin look would know when someone has apologized or not by the tones of the posts between them... it changes

Now given that Jack has pissed a fair few people off with his lousey stupid dumbassed brainless friggin posts... which he has... and given that a fair few of us have been at him for years to get help... which he hasnt... to now find that he is seeking it... we are doing what mates do after the above has happened we stand by him offer him support and let the other stuff go... do we have to apologize to him? FOR WHAT??? does he have to apologize to us? collectively? FOR WHAT? if he needed to he would do as he has done on occasion by pm or email... that way it remains none of you bloody business weather its been done or not the tone of the future posts should tell you that its happened you dont need to be told we dont need to stand up and say "HEY LINT YOU FRIGGIN WANKER Ive just apologized to Jack Ishmael for calling him a F**kWit is that okay by you?" get over your bloody self :mad:

You oughta try it before condemning anyone :rolleyes:

What we have all done is to say "Good on you Jack hope it works out for you were here if you need us" THAT Lint is support :rolleyes:

[Tom Montgomery]

jack sees through all your phonieness- hes just too nice a fellow to call your arses on it.... just once id like to see you all admit you were friggin jerks and apologise
Thanks to all the kind folks who've called or written PM, and for all the kind wishes here on the WBF.

Thanks, everyone. I'm too beat tonight to write anymore, but thank you. It means a great deal.Let it go, Dutch. Jack can speak for himself. Evidently he has received a number of phone calls and PM's. How could you possibly know what was said to him in those communications?

[Tar Devil]

just once id like to see you all admit you were friggin jerks and apologise

Dunno when I've laughed harder...

With friends like Dutch, Jack, you'll wanna keep a keen eye over your shoulder!

[Sea Frog]

and now with the evidence that a few cups of coffee every day restore your liver to health, i think the deleterous health effects are vastly over rated

if someone wants to call themselves an alcoholic and go on the wagon more power to them, but the idea that anyone who has a few high balls a day is a hopeless drunk, is ludicrous

Well that's just what he called himself. Knowing how weak-willed he can be I guess his real friends wouldn't even think of making him waver once again at the last minute on the treshold of free appropriate treatment and positive community belonging.
That's what you are doing though, for whatever reason. Well, keep on with the fine job. There has to be a name for that.

[LeeG]

Dryer lint
This message is hidden because Dryer lint is on your ignore list.

[ishmael]

Does everything have to turn into a squabble? There's blame to go around, but I'm not there anymore. Pointing fingers and shouting at a disembodied "someone" on the other end of the wire never solved anything. Try to turn it back on yourselves, and I'll do the same.

Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves.
-Carl Jung

P.S. I'm not engaging this further in open forum. If you want to discuss it, PM me.

[TomF]

Hi Jack! Delighted to see you.

[LeeG]

Jack, this is the bilge where arguing over whose belly lint is better is standard fare.

To answer your question EVERYTHING doesn't have to turn into a squabble. EVERYTHING doesn't have to be anything.

I had a delicious English muffin sandwich with one fried egg, half an avocado, slice of tomato and hot sauce. That wasn't everything but it was something.

[Milo Christensen]

Hi Jack, how are you doing? Remember, hidden amongst the squabblers, there's folks that care.

[Popeye]

how's the cat taking it?

[Ethan]

. . . They NEED the forum THATS their WHOLE social LIFE. They got the coins the T shirts, the coffee mugs, bumper stickers, pictures, pictures, pictures They speak in slogans, if ya ever ask them how ya doing they always respond "BWAAHAAAA":rolleyes: . . .

...says the guy with a gagillion posts on the WBF! ;) :D

Seriously though, I wish Ish the very best. And I commend those here who have publicly acknowledged their own struggles for the purpose of inspiring him.

[Dryer lint]

Dunno when I've laughed harder...



you want a real laugh? check out post 75 on this thread. some poor boob let his wife talk him into believing he has a drinkin problem cause he had a drink or two ( OH MY!!!!! :eek: ) at night, and then he had one jello shooter at a party.

good grief man get a grip

post # 75



My drinking became habitual... every night a glass or two. A form of self-medication. Cheryl increasingly voiced her concern. Then Oct 28 we went to a halloween party with plenty of booze. I got pretty soused, then someone came by with some jello shooters, one of which pretty much rendered me non-functional. I sat outside on the porch for the rest of the night until Cheryl drove us home.

Next morning Cheryl unconditionally labeled me an alcoholic. I've never considered myself one, since I never drank and drove, rarely ever got drunk (parties and free booze were a sure binge), never missed a days work or an appointment because of drinking... you get the picture. I had my drink or two (sometimes three) every evening before bed and that was that.

Anyway, I walked to the kitchen, poured out the one bottle in my cabinet and haven't had a drop of licquor since. I have had a couple of beers... nothing else. Hasn't been a struggle, don't feel like I fighting a demon, don't really miss it all that much. There are some nights I'd like to numb myself from my surroundings, but I have my own room in the house for that.

I dunno... am I?

Later,

Phil