Comments and designs suggestion for 24ft sail inspire by open 60s, etc

[TomMcKinney]

I have been thinking more and more about what I want in a sailboat. I go back and forth between the old faishion work boats- love those french luggers and very modern, but still wood boats- best material for one-offs.

On the modern side I would like a strip plank or plywood hull evocative of the Open 60s. Like the boat Endanger Species which was written up in WB a few years back. Somthing that went to weather OK, was very fast downhill and was fairly stiff.

To me this suggests a fairly flat bottom,but not neccsissarily a sharpie. Finding another slip at my current club rate is never going to happen in mylifetime, so lets limit the boat to 24ft, my current slip limit, but I think a beam of up to 9ft would work since I don't need a trailer.

I have a peculiar layout idea, and your comments here or suggetstions of other designs would be most appreciated. First, the boat should be center cockpit and not have a sette or dinning table down below. An "optional" canvas enclosure should be available to bubble the whole cockpit. Because the boat would be used in Sothern California, heavy fabric should be sufficient to provide a nice useable "family room" in the cockpit when at anchor those 2 weeks a year one might actually cruise overnight. The head should be all the way forward like the Norwalk Island Sharpie 26. The foward cabin should also house the galley (stove to port, sink to starboard, ice chest under stairs. In addition "1/4" berths, extending under the cockpit seats could be accessed here- perhaps each with just enough room to sit down out of the weather if an emergency down below spave near the galley was needed.

The rear of the boat would be a seperate cabin for Mom and Dad while at anchor. By carrying the beam well aft, a good size (Queen??)bunk could be here and placed very low to maximize headroom and minimize movement at anchor. Top this area with two nice Bomar's for light andventilation, as well as rear hatch. Top of this are is alo excellet place to store small hard dink while underway

Power should be an inboard with saildrive with enough power to take advantage of the otherwise light semi-planing hull.

The rig should be a "modern" gaff or lug sail on a carbon mast with little to no rigging/shoruds/stays. A retracable or folding bowsprit to fly and symetrical spinnaker would greatly increase the downwid abillity the hull would be designed for. Maybe a copy of the Freedom 40 wishbone cat-ketch rig.

If possible an insulated fish box in the sole of the cockpit would be great since i love to fish.

OK, comments, criticisms and other ravings can now commence.

[rbgarr]

I don't know much about the dinghy type of boat you're considering. Would a 24' boat fitted out as you describe still be light displacement or semi-planing? I wonder.

Thomas Gillmer's cruising ketch in Atkins' "The Book of Boats" might interest you. Small center cockpit with engine under, minimal aft cabin, galley, two settees and head in forward cabin.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

24 foot, inspired by Open 60s....
Quite the reverse http://www.minitransat650.com/articles/html/bertrand_650.html Credit to the french.
These are the 22 footers which inspired the open 60s
http://www.minitransat650.com/articles/assets/images/Bennet03carbon.jpg

www.minitransat650.com (http://www.minitransat650.com)

[rbgarr]

This may be starting point for you: http://www.dixdesign.com/didiminicruise.htm

[YMT]

In the fascinating world of the Mini Transat.http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/data/505/250sail.jpg

[ahp]

That is a yacht??? Have they no pride? Have they no shame? Ghastly green and trade names!!!

[Tom Robb]

An Open 60s inspired hotrod with all that accomodation shoe-horned into a 24' hull? (What, no hot tub, fireplace, and laundry?) Lotsa luck.
I'd talk to a NA or designer if I were you and get some sort of reality check.

[Chris Ostlind]

If you want the look of an Open 60 and are willing to settle for the performance of something further down the line, you "might" be able to get most of the stuff of which you speak... but not all.

I guess the question really is... why do you want the potentially negative comfort issues of an Open 60 style boat without the performance to go with it? 60's and MiniTransats do not provide a cruiser's comfort and handling characteristics. I gotta believe that the Old Folks are gonna take one ride and then say thanks, but no thanks, Tom. The accelerations, heeling angles and white knuckle aspects of this design style are not your typical light air, San Diego mainstay.

Additionally, canting keel mechanisms (be they hydraulic or manual) along with water ballast tankage and the pumps and power systems to move the water about, will seriously impinge on the interior space available.

You can, however, get some of the styling cues, along with a few creature comfort appointments and call the compromise a good one.

[Kim Whitmyre]

Interesting page at the site P. S-N posted:

http://www.minitransat650.com/articles/html/cantingkeel_29.html

http://www.minitransat650.com/articles/assets/images/Cavalier_mini-transat_Fauroux_Desjoyeaux1.jpg

First canting keel mini with rotating bowsprit for spinnakers. With words from one of the early designers about the pros and cons of such.

[TomMcKinney]

You can, however, get some of the styling cues, along with a few creature comfort appointments and call the compromise a good one.


Exactly!!
That's more what I'm looking for than all the open 60 bells and whistles anyway. An open 60 lacks those comforts becasue weight needs to be left out for maximum perfromance. I don't have that requirement.


The didi-mini cruise version is defintely what started me thinking along this route

What I like about the 60s and minis is the wide flat design of the hull- almost dinghy like, which suggest to me stiffness and good downwind surfing. The rest, with the canting keels, water ballast and huge rigs is just total overkill for my needs.

However, I do not understand the comments that my requirments can't be put into such a hull at 24 ft. Care to explain? My current 24 has enough room, it just not arranged in that way.

Thanks
Tom

[paladin]

Glad you looked at Dudley Dix boat.....why not take another look at the 26...by adding hinged arrangement to the bowsprit and locking it down with a hyfield lever you could stick it in your present slip....and by making the aft cabin framework and covered with 3/16ths ply with foam core the weight would be low at the stern.....using a swing down motor mount and outboard the kids bunks can go half under the center cockpit with the head all the way forward with room for a small "overnight" type galley etc....

[Tom Robb]

While not a hotrod sailor, it's my understanding that the wide butt, flat bottomed shape needs to be sailed flat - race dinghylike - thus the canting keel, rail meat, ballast tanks comments.
I'd still call two cabins, queen bed, 1/4 berths, galley & head a crowd in a 24' hull.
Race boat shapes are there for the (often rule beating) speed they promise (if sailed skillfully.) Comfort and room aren't in the equasion.
We went through all this racing motorcycles. The same principles still aply. Going fast leads to lots of uncomfortable expensive compromises.
Merely looking fast is cheap but absurd.
But you will undoubtedly build whatever you like. This is still America when last I looked.

[rbgarr]

However, I do not understand the comments that my requirments can't be put into such a hull at 24 ft. Care to explain? My current 24 has enough room, it just not arranged in that way.

I just meant that an aft cabin, a dinghy atop it, and a Saildrive may being adding more weight and drag than you think if you are hoping for semi-planing speed. But again, I'm no expert on this type of design. YMT could confirm or deny perhaps.

[paladin]

That design would cry for a small lightweight 2-4 hp outboard and lightweight peeeeples.....

[Hwyl]

Credit to the french.
T

www.minitransat650.com (http://www.minitransat650.com)

Actually started in Britain by Bob Salmon,

[bainbridgeisland]

First of all weight is really really important for these boats. In fact MIni Transat boats are too heavy for good performance. They ought to be 25 to 26 ft for the same payload. You must realize the Mini Transats carry only one crew with an exceptionally simple accommodation.

If you choose styling alone, care will be needed to have even modest performance. This is because the Mini Transats and open 60's are fine-tuned to carry a particular displacement at a particular location. I am not saying that you cannot have the accommodation you want on a 24 footer, just that combining that accommodation with Mini Transat or Open 60 styling will harm performance.

For example, freeboard on a Mini Transat is about 25 inches. This saves weight, allows for an adequate range of stability and 4-feet headroom inside a rather tall house. The tall house is done on purpose because it is lighter than using a low house with raised freeboard. 25-inch freeboard isn't enough for the accommodations you have in mind. Raising the freeboard will harm the styling as well as performance.

Having sailed these boats, they can be a bit cranky (and I am a very experienced sailor). Wouldn't you rather have a boat that is easy to sail and fast for its displacement? I do not think the idea you propose will deliver these features.

David Mancebo

[Thorne]

http://www.funsun.com/graphics/boat2000.gif

[davidagage]

Maybe something a bit more like this?





http://www.boatdesign.net/nyd/P590/P590-layout.png


From here....

Pilgrim 590 (http://www.boatdesign.net/nyd/P590/)

[LUGNUT]

Phil Bolger has a boat that might fill your needs. It's modeled after a two masted French Lugger. One was built called "St Valerie". It has the usual Bolgerisms though. He can't help himself I guess. Always wants to reinvent the wheel.

[Sea Frog]

This Belgian design mixes traditional looks with recent technicalities.

http://users.skynet.be/p.balta/gorfou.html

http://users.skynet.be/p.balta/gorfou/profilu.jpg

[JimConlin]

There's a lot to like about St. Valerie.

http://www.devlinboat.com/usedbolger.jpg

[PVanderwaart]

http://www.tboat.com/T650-design.html

Thompson Designs.