My new favorite RAWFAITH picture [Archive]

Hughman

12-15-2006, 07:07 AM

I'll try to be charitable. The "boat" is a trainwreck.

It sits in a corner of Rockland harbor, agroung on it's own coffee grounds, three broken tree trunks stuck through the deck, looking like a leftover hou dourve from a bad party.

Local captain I know watched it "sail" once....said the rig is incapable of being trimmed, as the various parts interfere with each other.

This miracle just drifts inexorably downwind until the Coast Guard arrives and tows it back in.

All things pass, this one will too.

Tom Hunter

12-15-2006, 08:24 AM

Hughman has seen it, I have only read the newspaper and coastguard reports. The short version is here, longer versions can be found elsewhere on this forum.

http://www.rawfaith.org/mkportal/modules/gallery/album/a_46.jpg

Here she is in all her glory. Personally I think she is likely to be underpowered, which may explain why the captain reports her speed in the 3 knot range. I am certain that her masts are not adiquate, more on that in a minute.

If memory serves she has gone to sea two or 3 times. On one occasion her rudder broke because of inadiquate hardware, she lost control and was towed back to Rockland for repairs.

On another occasion she lost her masts, and was towed back to Rockland. I believe that was trip number 3 and after that the Coast Guard insisted that they make a number of somewhat expensive changes to the vessel before they set sail again. They don't have the money, so she is sitting in Rockland.

My impression is that the hull is very heavily built, but that the standing rigging, rudder pintles and other gear was much too light. When the captain writes about his misadventures he dwells on the fact that at no time was the boat taking on water, the hull was completely sound. He seems to believe that this means they were ok, even though they did not have control of the vessel.

That is why I beleive he is a danger to those onboard. He does not know enough to realize that being out of control while being blown down onto the lee shore of Cape Cod (admittedly very far away) is very dangerous. Or that being dismasted is dangerous, or that having inadiquate standing rigging is dangerous.

I have never seen any indication that there were experienced people invovled in construction of the vessel. I don't consider myself expert, but I am sure I know more than the folks who built her. I suspect that they ran low on funds as they reached the point of fitting her out, so more money went into building the hull than went into the standing rigging, rudder and other systems.

The folks behind Raw Faith have a lot invested in the project, so they tend to view it a certain way. Accentuating the positive is good up to the point where you ignore the problems. Raw Faith is way past that point.

Thad Van Gilder

12-15-2006, 09:13 AM

I understand she is triple planked out of oak! I hope she isn't leaking!!!!

I want so badly to go up there just to see this side show act.

she was scheduled twice to come down here. once to atlantic city, and once to Egg harbor township, which means she was either going down the intercoastal under several 35 foot bridges, and in 5 feet of water in the channel (at high tide) or coming through great egg harbor inlet, which can be a handfull with the depthes coming in as well.

I really wanted to see that happen. It's was a good dream, but it is like letting the insane run the nuthouse!

-Thad

Bob Cleek

12-15-2006, 11:03 AM

It looks like the builders of that boat actually took all the advice that's handed out in here! LOL

notwoodbut...

12-15-2006, 11:26 AM

Laugh all you want but they've got spiffy t-shirts...http://www.cafepress.com/rawfaith.10171580
sorry I still don't know how to post pic's from the web

John Turpin

12-15-2006, 01:03 PM

I will make a nice reef somewhere. I just hope no one gets hurt on her.

JeffH

12-15-2006, 02:30 PM

For some listening fun, go to http://shows.weru.org/archives/category/boattalk/ A local radio station, WERU, has a very random and rambling monthly show called "Boat talk". One of the hosts has befriended George McCay, and has him as a guest every so often. Listen to the June 13, 2006 edition, which was recorded shortly after the last misadventure. Listen to how quickly George becomes defensive. Listen to Giffy Full do his damndest to maintain a straight face (helps if one knows Giffy and his personality). Good times.

Oh, and no, he didn't use bottom paint. Just pine tar. Says he doesn't believe in the real stuff, but most likely couldn't afford the couple hundred bucks it would take to get enough to cover the bottom. Hasn't been out of the water in more than three years now, and the last time I paddled by it looked and smelled like a half tide ledge.
Jeff

Thad Van Gilder

12-17-2006, 07:24 PM

Wow, Jeff, you paddled past that thing! where you afraid that part of it might break off and fall on you?

-Thad

Bill R

12-18-2006, 05:03 PM

I was up there today and got some half decent pics of it...

Boy, does it look like crap.

Nanoose

12-18-2006, 05:51 PM

I was up there today and got some half decent pics of it...

..we're waiting :)

Philip Maynard

12-18-2006, 06:32 PM

RawFaith is kind of heroic - maybe BlindFaith would be better - I feel bad for the daughter that inspired this raft of ....

JeffH

12-18-2006, 06:53 PM

Wow, Jeff, you paddled past that thing! where you afraid that part of it might break off and fall on you?

-Thad

Paddled with trepidation, indeed. What I actually want to know is what's holding it to the bottom. If they're using one of their own anchors, it's just a welded fabrication of box-section steel made to look like a traditional fisherman's anchor. I honestly wonder how something like that will last down there (hey, mabe they actually are on to something). They've been through a couple pretty decent blows so far, but then, nothing lasts forever...

Bill R

12-19-2006, 07:40 AM

Nanoose- work called me back out just a few minutes after I got home last night. Ill post them as soon as I can get them uploaded.

Thad Van Gilder

12-19-2006, 08:04 AM

excellent! I can't wait to see the pics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Thad

Bill R

12-19-2006, 10:17 AM

Located here:

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2097881831

Thad Van Gilder

12-19-2006, 10:23 AM

Wow, It's worse than I thought!

So, I gues they removed the remains of the mizzen mast.

-Thad

Thad Van Gilder

12-19-2006, 10:24 AM

Is that radar on that thing? They have radar but no bottom paint or an engine?

what was this guy thinking!!!!

Bill R

12-19-2006, 10:36 AM

Is that radar on that thing? They have radar but no bottom paint or an engine?

what was this guy thinking!!!!

Holy crap. I hadn't noticed that. Sure looks like it.

rbgarr

12-19-2006, 10:44 AM

I just built a pirate ship about three feet long out of some scrap 2 x 4s for a young relative. He'll use with for his Playmobile and Lego pirate figures on a ping pong table that's been painted blue with "islands and reefs and harbors and forts and stuff".

It looks just about like Raw Faith.

Anyone remember Son of Town Hall? http://tinyurl.com/y4y6ss

Thad Van Gilder

12-19-2006, 12:49 PM

son of town hall? Looks like Son of the Trailer Park!

Keith Wilson

12-19-2006, 04:34 PM

Son of Town Hall crossed the Atlantic, believe it or not, sailed by braver men than me.

Thad Van Gilder

12-20-2006, 08:58 AM

braver.... I don't know if I would have used that adjective!

-Thad

JeffH

12-20-2006, 09:13 AM

Is that radar on that thing? They have radar but no bottom paint or an engine?

what was this guy thinking!!!!

Yup. Believe it or not, they exceeded USCG safety standards in terms of EPIRB, survival suits, radar reflectors, etc. Ironic, no?

WadeH

12-20-2006, 09:21 AM

Son of Town Hall crossed the Atlantic, believe it or not, sailed by braver men than me.

Ofcourse I have always been told that the meaning of brave was stupid.
After looking at that picture I think they may have been right. If I had not seen the water I am not sure I would have figured out it was a boat.

Tom Hunter

12-20-2006, 12:44 PM

Son of town hall was built by people who had done a lot of thinking, working and testing. I'm not sure how many shanty boats they had built but I am sure it was several before they tried to cross the Atlantic.

They built real heavy, they did not have any major gear failures and they made it. Not my choice of craft but hard to argue with the success of the project.

Thad Van Gilder

02-12-2007, 08:47 AM

So, any new news on the Rawfaith? did it break free of it's quality anchor yet? did it sink?

-Thad

trull

02-12-2007, 10:18 AM

These pictures are from the Courier-Gazette. During a recent storm, the old carrier Lauren T. sank, but Rawfaith remains. A testament to raw faith!

http://www.midcoast.com/~aft/images/rawfaith2.jpg
http://www.midcoast.com/~aft/images/rawfaith1.jpg

rbgarr

02-12-2007, 10:26 AM

Two weeks ago I saw her at anchor in the corner of Rockland harbor looking pretty lonely and forlorn. The WERU radio show mentioned above was interesting. McKay seemed more reasonable and level headed than I anticipated, but he just forged ahead with the design selection and building without seeking out good, experienced help and ideas. He became enamored with the notion of a 'galleon' somehow. Sort of a Ned Ackerman for the new century.

My impression was that Giffy Full really didn't want to say much or participate in the interview if possible. There's been enough piling on. His few questions were pointed but respectful.

Thad Van Gilder

02-12-2007, 11:48 AM

Now that is a quality vessel!!!!!!!!!!!!!

bholderman

02-12-2007, 01:36 PM

Thad Van Gilder

02-12-2007, 03:29 PM

what does it look like any way? to me it looks like a big pile of dark brown poo.

Hughman

02-12-2007, 08:35 PM

http://www.midcoast.com/~aft/images/rawfaith1.jpg

Hi Alden,

Is there a hog showing up in this pic?

:rolleyes:

Thad Van Gilder

02-13-2007, 08:14 AM

It does look a lili bit, doesn't it!!!!!

-Thad

Ross Faneuf

05-25-2007, 11:32 PM

Here is the latest challenge for Raw Faith's owner, as reported on a local web site: http://knox.villagesoup.com/Government/story.cfm?storyID=93082

Tylerdurden

05-26-2007, 05:27 AM

I assume taking her out and scuttling her would be another regulatory hassle? Poor dude is screwed no matter which way he goes.

Tom Hunter

05-27-2007, 08:25 PM

Lucky Rockland, if he can't pay they may have to take possession.

bholderman

05-27-2007, 10:00 PM

Another great example of someone having no clue as to what's involved with a tall ship.

pcford

05-27-2007, 10:09 PM

Another great example of someone having no clue as to what's involved with a tall ship.

"tall ship?" Oh well, I've even seen it used a one word.

Thad Van Gilder

05-29-2007, 08:41 AM

I hope it's still in the harbor this summer...

I want so badly to see this disaster in person!!!!!

-Thad

SawmillBrook

05-29-2007, 10:46 AM

It's tragic of course, and it's totally unsafe. Anyone could tell early on that this would happen. But on the other hand, the guy fulfilled a dream and the vast majority of us - don't. I feel very sorry for him, his daughter and his family.

It's so pathetic, it isn't funny.

Sailor

07-20-2007, 02:34 PM

dmede

07-20-2007, 03:27 PM

Tall ship.... I hate the term.
It's a term used by non- nautically minded folks who couldn't possibly be expected to know the difference between a schooner and a brigantine or a ship and a barque. Don't even present them with a photo of a brig and a snow, they'd never see any difference at all.
I vote we eliminate the term altogether from our vocabulary and pretend Masefield never used it in his poem? he didnt' mean it as a Tallship he meant it as a tall ship, as in a ship that has tall masts, not as a term to include any and all manner of sailing craft from 28 foot schooners to full rigged ships and barques. Any thoughts?

Why should everyone have to know the difference between these ships to be interested in them? I think ships, large sailing ships in particular have a sort of universal appeal, kinda like trains do. It would be a shame to say that if you don't know how to tell them apart, or if you use the term "tall ships" to describe them your some kinda of outcast that the proper sailing community should ignore. What a load, enthusiasm for our world of wooden baots should be encouraged whenever possible, regardless of the persons level of knowledge.

gert

07-20-2007, 04:41 PM

the above quote reminds me of a question I have nbeen meaning to ask.

When does a boat become a ship? I am under the impresion it had to do with the status (rank?) of it's skipper.

Forgive me for not being "nauticaly minded" just building and sailing minded ;)

I will say slothingly though that I seriously dought most people would call a 28' anything with a mast a "tall ship"

As for most of those other large sailing vessels, I have always found their masts rather tall and I beleive thats what most people think too.

pcford

07-20-2007, 04:44 PM

Tall ship.... I hate the term.

Amen, brother.

Just another indication of the degradation of the English language by the careless and slothful.

dmede

07-20-2007, 05:05 PM

Amen, brother.

Just another indication of the degradation of the English language by the careless and slothful.

Totall nonsense, for those outside the field it's just all they know. Do you tell your dentist you have a toothache in your bicuspid, or "that tooth right in the back"? If you got people who should know better than ok I see the gripe, but I don't agree with the complaint that not knowing what all the MANY different types of ship and boats are is some how related to a loss of language or makes one ignorant. How many people here know all the inuit words for snow?

Hughman

07-20-2007, 06:06 PM

the above quote reminds me of a question I have nbeen meaning to ask.

When does a boat become a ship? .

One definition is that a boat can be carried by the ship, but the ship can't be carried by a boat

JimD

07-20-2007, 07:17 PM

The origin of the popular use of the term 'tall ship'

Sea Fever

I MUST down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by,
And the wheel's kick and the wind's song and the white sail's shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea's face and a grey dawn breaking.

I must down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.

I must down to the seas again to the vagrant gypsy life.
To the gull's way and the whale's way where the wind's like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick's over.

John Masefield

Daniel Noyes

07-20-2007, 07:28 PM

photo test
Dan
[img][IMG]

oops

pcford

07-20-2007, 07:29 PM

Totall nonsense, for those outside the field it's just all they know. Do you tell your dentist you have a toothache in your bicuspid, or "that tooth right in the back"? If you got people who should know better than ok I see the gripe, but I don't agree with the complaint that not knowing what all the MANY different types of ship and boats are is some how related to a loss of language or makes one ignorant. How many people here know all the inuit words for snow?

I was speaking to the use of the term "tallship." It is patently a nauseating neologism and deserves to be used only by those wearing Greek fisherman's caps.

JimD

07-20-2007, 07:50 PM

Greek fishermen might take exception

http://www.villagehatshop.com/media/greek-fisherman.jpg

JimD

07-20-2007, 07:51 PM

And something for the captain

http://www.hatsinthebelfry.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/captawhite-375.jpg

bholderman

07-23-2007, 12:02 AM

Gert,

A "ship" was/is a term just like bark, brig, snow, etc. Roughly, a full-rigged ship contained squares'ls on all her (3 or more) masts. Ships of the day of sail were classified by their rigging. At some point, as steam and diesel vanquished sail, the term ship became the nom de plume of most vessels at sea.

Of course, if you are involved in shipping of any kind, you know the subtle differences. "Ship" is equally a generic popular term for any boat of substantial size, as "tall ship" refers to anything with sails that looks like it existed prior to 1920.

the above quote reminds me of a question I have nbeen meaning to ask.

When does a boat become a ship? I am under the impresion it had to do with the status (rank?) of it's skipper.

Forgive me for not being "nauticaly minded" just building and sailing minded ;)

I will say slothingly though that I seriously dought most people would call a 28' anything with a mast a "tall ship"

As for most of those other large sailing vessels, I have always found their masts rather tall and I beleive thats what most people think too.

pcford

07-23-2007, 01:18 AM

Ship" is equally a generic popular term for any boat of substantial size, as "tall ship" refers to anything with sails that looks like it existed prior to 1920.

I thought they were calling sailing ships. The abominations "tall ship" or even worse "tallship" has its origin in a well-know popular poem. I don't know if I could tell the difference between a schooner and a brigantine. But I know "tall ship" is a later day invention.

Tell you what, find me a 19th century description of a sailing ship as a "tall ship" or "tallship."

I have never heard the term before say, twenty years ago...and I knew people that served on sailing ships.

To me, it's a term used by moony gits in Greek fisherman's caps.

Don Victore

07-23-2007, 01:57 AM

Just listened to that interview from that radio station in Bangor Main. I nearly choked on some rice I was eating. When that guy Bob? called in about his 60 something foot cattail boat he was lashing with "as he says "illegal hemp" He was planing on going to Norway with it. That had to be a prank it was just to perfect in it's absurdity that it was only matched by rawfish. I do feel in a way bad for the guy who built her. He is got his back against a wall and every one is clawing at him. However I do think there is a price paid for stupidity. Better it be from people criticizing him then him dying at sea with his family friends and a boat load of handicapped children.
As to the "tall Ship" thing I always thought he meant tall ship as in a proud ship.

gert

07-23-2007, 09:13 AM

As to the "tall Ship" thing I always thought he meant tall ship as in a proud ship

To our language purists (traditionalists), this is a real possability; what say ye?

rbgarr

07-23-2007, 09:34 AM

Ye says crap!

bholderman

07-23-2007, 11:00 AM

I think I got wrapped up in my own writing. I was trying to say that "ship" and "tall ship" have simply become that generic pop terms of the everyday masses.

I do, however, agree with your argument about the term tallship from an internal standpoint. A ship is a ship, a bark is a bark, etc.

Keith Wilson

07-23-2007, 12:08 PM

I prefer my faith deep-fried. It's not so likely to give you indigestion or parasites that way.

Figment

07-23-2007, 01:09 PM

http://www.rawfaith.org/images/aboutus.jpg

I suddenly have a tinge of anchor-envy!

(if you can't say anything nice...)

Excalibur

07-24-2007, 07:25 AM

By bulldozer you came into the world, and by bulldozer shall you return...

dmede

07-24-2007, 11:18 AM

I was speaking to the use of the term "tallship." It is patently a nauseating neologism and deserves to be used only by those wearing Greek fisherman's caps.

I was watching TV last night and was reminded of one of my own vocabulary pet peeves, calling a shotgun a rifle or visa versa. It was an old home show and they were talking about the antique double barrel shotgun over the fireplace and kept referring to it as a rifle. That always get me rilled up. So I am now feeling a bit more charitable towards the point of view that "tallship" or "tall ship" is a bit dumb, when just "ship" or "sailing ship" might do for those who don't have a clue about the types of boats out there (lik me :) ).

Rick_Tatum

07-24-2007, 05:40 PM

I don't think there is much future sailin' with the Rawfaith outfit. It looks like a floating stockyard, and I've seen much neater crafted cow pens out on the rez 1000 miles from the ocean.

Tom Hunter

07-24-2007, 07:40 PM

So Excaliber, is that RED tape on your helmet?

Excalibur

07-25-2007, 07:19 AM

Yup, I fought for the middle that year. This year, who knows? Check out www.pennsicwar.org if your curious.

mmd

07-25-2007, 09:56 AM

"One definition is that a boat can be carried by the ship, but the ship can't be carried by a boat" - Hughman

Just to tease Hugh a little bit <nudge, wink>, and to poke holes in the old saw about "a boat can be carried on a ship", etc.; I guess that the photos below indicate that vessels such as the USS Cole and oil rigs such as the Aleutian Key are correctly called "boats". <wink>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/MV_Blue_Marlin_carrying_USS_Cole.jpg/800px-MV_Blue_Marlin_carrying_USS_Cole.jpg

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e290/walski69/MS3Sinking01.jpg

Tom Hunter

07-25-2007, 10:34 AM

Yup, I fought for the middle that year. This year, who knows? Check out www.pennsicwar.org (http://www.pennsicwar.org) if your curious.

My first war was Pennsic XVIII last was XXIX, fought for the East mostly, but got confused and fought for both sides in my later years. Loved it, fantasize about going back but I think its a younger man's game. I'm not sure there is enough wisky in the world to dull the aches I would have as a 41 year old.

Excalibur

07-25-2007, 11:52 AM

I'm 54 and I fight as Bloodeye of Tuchux, whom I'm sure you know don't take slackers or charity cases as fighters. You can overcome youthful exuberance with treachery and guile if you want to badly enough... Next excuse? :D

bholderman

07-25-2007, 01:01 PM

[QUOTE=mmd;1621696]Just to tease Hugh a little bit <nudge, wink>, and to poke holes in the old saw about "a boat can be carried on a ship", etc.; I guess that the photos below indicate that vessels such as the USS Cole and oil rigs such as the Aleutian Key are correctly called "boats". <wink>

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/MV_Blue_Marlin_carrying_USS_Cole.jpg/800px-MV_Blue_Marlin_carrying_USS_Cole.jpg

QUOTE]

To this day, that is still one of the most incredible photos I've ever seen.

Excalibur

07-25-2007, 01:10 PM

Yup, incredible in a lot of ways. Take a look at the waterline of the MV Blue Marlin; it's not even well burdened by the USS Cole. It's also incredible that a ship like the Cole can suffer that much damage and still float. A tribute to the crew as much as the ship.

pcford

07-25-2007, 01:18 PM

Yup, incredible in a lot of ways. Take a look at the waterline of the MV Blue Marlin; it's not even well burdened by the USS Cole.

Looks like the load is probably right up near the Plimsoll line for North Atlantic navigation. Pretty much loaded up.

Excalibur

07-25-2007, 01:41 PM

Looks like the load is probably right up near the Plimsoll line for North Atlantic navigation. Pretty much loaded up.

You have better eyes than me (and no doubt know more about the subject as well). I was going by where the bow extension cuts the water, and opined that more of it should be submerged. But I've been wrong before. :o

edit... a little more research shows PC is right of course. Here is Blue Marlin with another heavy load (http://www.defenselink.mil/dodcmsshare/newsphoto%5C2006-01%5C060109-N-3019M-012.jpg) showing pretty much the same waterline. BTW, her max load (according to her owners) is 73,000 tons. The Cole was indeed a light load, even though the pic shows her at design waterline.

pcford

07-25-2007, 01:50 PM

You have better eyes than me (and no doubt know more about the subject as well). I was going by where the bow extension cuts the water, and opined that more of it should be submerged. But I've been wrong before. :o

One of the reasons I know about Plimsoll lines is that I worked as a longshoreman at Foss Launch and Tug way back in the long-vanished '70's. Loading gear for the Alaska pipeline on barges. About the hardest work I have ever done. But I was young, strong and desperate. And it was the time of the Boeing crash...."last person to leave Seattle, please turn out the lights." My how times have changed.

Also, if I recall correctly, they mentioned Plimsoll lines in that BBC production, "The Onedin Line."

pcford

07-25-2007, 01:55 PM

edit... a little more research show PC is right of course.

As usual....heh, heh.

Neat picture!

Hughman

07-25-2007, 02:46 PM

Hughman

07-25-2007, 02:52 PM

OK, back on topic:

I sailed around Rawfish a few hours ago, and it is as forlorn as one can imagine...a half a tree sticks up from the middle - looks like a pickle on a toothpick - the topsides loosing their roofing tar, odd constructions growing on deck suggesting toadstools, and a thin stream of smoke coming from the cookstove somewhere below.

There is a bait barrel hung from a derreck over the side, and the angel figurehead looks as if she had too much laundry to do.

There is a noir film in this epic, methinks...

Vince Brennan

07-25-2007, 02:57 PM

P'raps the owners/operators saw "Waterworld" one too many times* and think that's normal?

*Actualy, once IS one-too-many...

Excalibur

07-25-2007, 02:59 PM

While sailors might refer to cans and subs as boats, the navy calls them ships since it considers them capable of being deployed on their own bottoms. What the navy does NOT call ships are vessels that in their estimation might need to be hauled to an operational area on other vessels, or those that are designed to be carried on vessels as a matter of course. Hence, patrol craft are boats, yard craft are boats, gigs, lifeboats, and (captains) barges are boats, but submarines, in spite of the fact that their crews can't keep them afloat ;) are still ships.

dpincus

07-25-2007, 03:50 PM

If Blue Marlin's cargo is significantly less than her capacity she'll opt to retain water ballast. Not so safe for her to ride extremely high on her lines, especially at her stern.

Tom Hunter

07-26-2007, 04:59 AM

Hughman, any chance for photo's? I was in Rockland a few weeks ago but forgot to look for her.

Don Z.

07-26-2007, 06:28 AM

Just to tease Hugh a little bit <nudge, wink>, and to poke holes in the old saw about "a boat can be carried on a ship", etc.; I guess that the photos below indicate that vessels such as the USS Cole and oil rigs such as the Aleutian Key are correctly called "boats". <wink>

Michael, you have no idea how many Surface Warfare Officer's noses I have tweaked by calling anything with less than 16 inch guns a boat. Since all the BB's are in ordinary, that leads them to the conclusion that there are no ships left in the US Navy. SWOs really don't like to be reminded of that...

They also don't like to be reminded of Guadalcanal, but that's a whole 'nother Oprah...

rbgarr

07-26-2007, 08:02 AM

Hughman, any chance for photo's? I was in Rockland a few weeks ago but forgot to look for her.

I was there last week and thought I took a picture but can't find it now. :confused:

Did anyone here who was at the Friendship Sloop Races take one?

Nicholas Scheuer

07-26-2007, 08:14 AM

Walter Cronkite reported about the World's magnificent Sail Training Ships assembled in New York Harbor for the July 4th festivities in 1976. His sonorous delivery gave the term a certain appeal, but I rapidly tired of it when people whose idea of a nice "boat" was a Wellcraft I/O started spouting off about "Tall Ships".

In reply I would usually inquire whether they's ever seen an Hermaphrodite Brig?

Moby Nick

Nicholas Scheuer

07-26-2007, 08:18 AM

as we departed Rockland Harbor on our first Maine Cruise in 2004. We never learned much about the ship, but I consider it one of the ugliest creations I've ever seen afloat.

Moby Nick

Vince Brennan

07-26-2007, 08:28 AM

'S not a ship... it's an apartment building flying a false flag!"

comment by a friend when I showed him the thread.

nedL

07-26-2007, 11:24 AM

I'd agree with 'Moby Nick', it was about the time of OpSail '76 that the term 'Tallships' {gag} seemed to be coined. For the first OpSail in 1964 they were refered to as school training ships (which is what the participants of OpSail '64 were - It was organized & billed as probably one of the last rendezvous' of such vessels.).

donald branscom

07-26-2007, 12:08 PM

I bet the captain of "RAWFAITH" knows the Coast Guard rules very well. I always admire it when a captain of a ship like that knows his regulations.
It makes others keep thier mouth shut.

A tree sticking from the deck. It is an artistic thing... you know it came from a tree and the tree is back?

Another thing i really like about some boats like that is that after a big storm you can count on those things still being there and they help you get your bearings about your location.

I have been shunned at parties because the railings on my boat were too high. But I will tell what -( laugh if you want) -to have a waist high strong railing makes you feel very secure out in the ocean.

Hughman

07-26-2007, 03:13 PM

Hermaphrodite Brig?

Moby Nick

Isn't that in the basement of the San Francisco police station?

Thorne

07-26-2007, 03:25 PM

The Castro substation, yes...

Here's the most recent post from my Loch Morgan thread --

The black-hulled boat is sure to generate comment -- sort our our very own "Raw Faith", with a newbie builder who insists on learning it all the hard way. So far the laws of physics have NOT cooperated with his personal interpretation of them, so the boat can be rowed but not sail to windward.

Nice guy, just determined that he (with no experience) can do better than generations of sailors and boatbuilders...

;0 )

http://www.luckhardt.com/ST07/images/5.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/ST07/images/7.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/ST07/images/22.jpg

http://www.luckhardt.com/ST07/images/17.jpg

StevenBauer

07-26-2007, 03:58 PM

Jeeze, Thorne, maybe we could take up a collection and buy that guy some John Gardner and Pete Culler books. :)

Steven

Thorne

07-26-2007, 05:08 PM

He has access to all that and more, plus many boatbuilder friends -- none of it seems to have any impact. As I said, some people just HAVE to learn the hard way....

Rick Starr

07-26-2007, 05:55 PM

Hmmm. I think the sandals-and-socks may have something to do with it.

L.W. Baxter

07-26-2007, 07:45 PM

At least he'll save some money at the funeral home. All he needs is a couple pillows and a lid.

Hughman

07-26-2007, 10:22 PM

At least he'll save some money at the funeral home. All he needs is a couple pillows and a lid.

and six SNAME certified architechs for pallbearers....

P.L.Lenihan

07-27-2007, 02:28 AM

Thanks for the pictures Thorne.I love seeing things like this as it keeps me aware of how very different our perspectives can be and how curiously we interpret the world around us as individuals.
I built a boat very simliar to this when I was 12 years old(a long time ago) and was absolutely king of my world. I'm not certain of the process, but over time I slowly came around to seeing shapes differently to the point where my boats looked more and more like the ones we "normaly"see in most magazines/marinas etc...Today,I believe it would almost be impossible for me to build something like the boat pictured, as it would just not look right.
With any kind of luck, the fellow in the pictures will become infected with the desire to build another boat and a better one to boot.

Peter

Rick Starr

07-27-2007, 07:14 AM

and six SNAME certified architechs for pallbearers....

LOL :D

Thorne

07-27-2007, 08:42 AM

and six SNAME certified architechs for pallbearers....

Now don't you think their sniggering and evil chuckles would disrupt the funeral service? And the little "WE TOLD YOU SO" armbands would also be in poor taste...

Seriously, we all have the same "I know better/I know what I want/I can build it myself" attitude to a tiny bit -- or we'd be riding jetskiis or glass sailboats, right?

Tom's boat, and Raw Faith too, just illustrate how badly it works taken to an extreme. If you define a thing by description rather than functionality, you end up with:

BOAT:
Wooden thing that keeps water out. Pointy end at at least one end. Stick pointing up for sails. Stick pointing forward for sails. Rudder to steer. Oars for propulsion.

It's only when you start defining "boat" by the ability to perform (like sailing to windward, rowing across the wind, etc) that the concept begins to resemble what the rest of us would regard as an acceptable "boat".

And I do want to repeat that Tom is a really nice guy, a pleasure to camp and hang out with -- just a tad bit stubborn. Sure hope he never googles this discussion! (my blushes)

Hughman

07-27-2007, 09:00 AM

...

Seriously, we all have the same "I know better/I know what I want/I can build it myself" attitude to a tiny bit

This is to be encouraged in a 12-tear-old as an exercise in the creative process. By the time one is an adult, re-inventing the wheel is looked upon as devoid of reason.

And I do want to repeat that Tom is a really nice guy, a pleasure to camp and hang out with -- just a tad bit stubborn.

nice is perfectly compatible with ignorance and stupidity. From here, it's difficult to determine which this example is, but I have my suspicions. Mind you, I've been guilty of both, so there is a cringe factor, as well.

Thorne

07-27-2007, 09:39 AM

This is to be encouraged in a 12-tear-old as an exercise in the creative process. By the time one is an adult, re-inventing the wheel is looked upon as devoid of reason.

Well, don't we see a lot of that in these Forums? Think of all the posts we get that roughly say, "I want to build XXXXX boat, but change the planks to ply, the whole sailing rig design, the keel to leeboards, the open cockpit to a cabin for 12, and the inboard diesel motor to 5 electric trolling motors...oh yeah, and a different hull shape."

;0 )

Maybe I'm a coward or not inventive enough, but I often wonder at the need to re-re-re-re(ad naseum)-redesign the same size boat made of the same materials for the same functions in the same water conditions with the same load.

I find it plenty challenging enough to come up with designs and then actually building things like centerboards/CB cases/masts&spars/rudders, etc.

I guess that if I was a much better designer and woodworker, maybe I'd get bored with all the above and just have to come up with yet another nearly-identical boat design...

3pepper

07-28-2007, 07:47 AM

interesting thread .
i live 4 hrs from the ocean and don't know or care what the correct terminology for your boats would be . i love them all and will eventualy get to sail in something somewhere . i don't know crap about "tallships " or short ships and if i get it wrong in conversation you will just have to get over it .

i wonder how many of his critics offered advice during the construction of his dream . a dream of taking handycapped children out to sea . just curious how many of his critics have voluntered thier time , money , and energy to do something like this . but they line up to bash him after the fact .

i like the look of this ship , i love the look of a pine tar finished wood .

it is so easy to critisize someone who has made a mistake or alot of them , and some of you seem to enjoy it .

i have spent most of my life in some sort of dangerous hobbie , mountainclimbing for 17 yrs , kayaking 8 yrs , etc . and there has been no shortage of self absorbed , self endulgent , "smarter than you " type of people around to tell you what you are doing wrong . esoteric sports/hobbies always have a small faction of people that love to line up to tell you how dangerous you are to yourself and others , and most of the time they just want to hear themselves talk , and offer no worthwile advise or ginuine help and friendship .

i am really suprised none of you told him to " build it out of plywood and epoxy" or " he'll never be able to cartop it " , or "PINE TAR ! are you crazy ! " , and my favorite , " he'll never portage that thing !"

i am not bashing you all , but alot of this behavior should be reserved for politicos .

how about some of you giving the guy a hand , i would donate money to a foundation like this if some qualified people were involved .

i also see mistakes made everyday and i don't believe something is a failure unless you give up .

i realy wish this man and his family and his dream all the best

s

Tylerdurden

07-28-2007, 08:55 AM

i wonder how many of his critics offered advice during the construction of his dream . a dream of taking handycapped children out to sea . just curious how many of his critics have voluntered thier time , money , and energy to do something like this . but they line up to bash him after the fact .

A lot of people offered advice but he was taking none, from everything I have heard. Most here on this forum will give their shirt of their back to help someone get on the water.
Myself I am all for charging into the darkness with sword in hand,
But one must being willing to pay the price for it.
I think you will find most misadventures of the Raw Faith kind come from the attitude that it looks simple so I must have the right idea.
Then ignoring the ones who know so you don't feel inferior.
You get what you pay for so I will keep taking the advice and the ridicule for when I mess up.

3pepper

07-28-2007, 09:22 AM

i'll have to agree with you tyler . i have done more than a bit of "charging in " in my day , in climbing , personal life and as a carrier woodworker . and i have paid the price for my mistakes and had alot of lucky success . most of my successes came from the advice and friendship of those who took the time to be with me .
thanks to all who have answered my questions and may you all never have a blind faith experience .
s

Tom Hunter

07-28-2007, 02:22 PM

3pepper,

The answers to many of your questions about the (dare I say collective?) opinion about Raw Faith are in your own post.

This one is key:

" i would donate money to a foundation like this if some qualified people were involved ."

Many of us, maybe even every single last one of us, has donated time, money and expertise to things like this, when qualified people were involved. In the past I have fundraised for the Adventure, and made anchor keys and done bottom painting on Spirit of Massachusetts, none of it for pay. I suspect my example is typical, though there are those who have done a lot more.

In certain respects Raw Faith is admirable, but Don Quixote is funny for a reason, too.