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Dryer lint
12-13-2006, 07:22 PM
Did anyone else see it? Looked to me like the "investigator" had his mind made up from the get go that WM is the consumate evil.

Ok-

let me ask this-

If WM wasnt #1 at doing what they do who would be? Target? K mart? Sears?

Seems to me that a corporation following the rules set up by the country that governs its business practices and doing quite well doing so, should get no blame, but be idolized as a success story.


Instead of crying about wm and the unfair way they price undercut, you should be looking into NAFTA, GATT and all the other free trade agreements our "representatives" have signed into law. Its not Wal Marts fault they can sell crap from china at cut rate prices, it is the federal governments. If you dont like the way business is done, get off your asses and get folk elected who see things your way.

seafox
12-13-2006, 10:39 PM
Walmart by its size and power distorts the market in some ways it is good in that it causes places like Kmart to lower their prices but it also kills whole catigories of compeditors. when it moves into town sometimes specality stores go away like photography or building supplys. and they have a pretty limited sel;ection some times only one or two brands. on the other hand I love their being open 24 hours. they tried to get a bank in utah so they could self process their credit card orders and this would again be a huge compeditively edge. on the other hand imagion if they had a full service bank, open 9 to 9 or like the pharmacy ( see a rexall drug store lately?) you could definitely bank more conventantly.

Bob Adams
12-13-2006, 10:54 PM
For Christ's sake Dutch, can't you go a week without bringing up that modern day robber baron? Do you work for them?

BrianW
12-13-2006, 11:19 PM
Ah yes, another thread about the 'Chinese Embassies'. :)

brad9798
12-13-2006, 11:35 PM
Folks that worship and spend all their money at walmart are the perps ...

WM is the epitomy of free enterprise ...

Don't like it? Well, then each of us should back to paying anywhere from 5-75% MORE at the mom and pop stores ... and we should also be patient enough to accept that many m&p stores will have to special order what we may desire ... so add another 10-20% to the costs.

Walmart saves middle class and lower middle class folks thousand a year.

They beat others at their own game.

They could not continue to do so if they offered anything other than what the majority of the buying public demands.

Supply and demand at its best.

I VERY OFTEN see the same items at WM for less than half what M&P Stores want to charge me.

Bad benefits? Then don't work there.

I'm becoming more of a fan every year.

Where else can I get a Big Mac, new tires and oil change, groceries, lcd TV, landscaping materials, etc. without leaving a single building? ;)

brad9798
12-13-2006, 11:36 PM
Oh, and a haircut, car loan, and pedicure!
:D

geeman
12-14-2006, 07:08 AM
Yesterday wife and I stopped at Walmart.As we went in I went to pick up a cart and their wasnt any to be had.They had one poor guy out trying to collect carts.When I went around the corner there were 4 managers standing around shooting the bull.I walked up and suggested that instead of loafing they might find it helpful if they ALL went out and helped the poor guy trying to get carts in.They ALL scrambled to get busy and 2 (a man and woman even went out and DID help the guy get carts in.

Dryer lint
12-14-2006, 07:37 AM
the jobs they create are crappy, and they force smaller distributors out of business

Ive worked for a lot of "small" local owned companies in my life. none had what anyone would call good working conditions such as safety training, sick leave, vacation accrueal, et al. I believe wm has them all.

Phillip Allen
12-14-2006, 07:45 AM
perhaps it is because WM has the appearance of government and we have been condition to believe governmental organizations are supposed to pandar to our lazyness...

paul oman
12-14-2006, 09:18 AM
WM showcases how marketing and retail is evolving. Detractors of WM no doubt in past generations attacked farmers for getting tractors to replace their horses, folks buying cars and putting horse stables and blacksmiths out of business, etc. Welcome to Change 101.

Of course one of the 'edges' WM has is computer technology to manage everything so efficiently. So maybe we should blame Bill Gates and not WM. Now if you're reading this on a computer, that makes you just as guilty as WM because you are actively advancing the technology that put WM at #1 and displaced its low tech competitors.

That bit about WM wages and benefits is also crap. No one forces anyone to take a job at WM. Don't like the pay or the benefits? Don't get a job at WM. Not all jobs are required to provide 'middle class income standards' - some jobs (maybe WM) are just for a few extra $ in the pocket (like babysitting, etc.). A local WM offers jobs to teenagers and unskilled parttimers that they would not otherwise have.

Sure, WM buys cheap things from China. It is a global ecomony. They make cameras cheaper than we can, but we sell the Microsoft Windows and information systems (American progressed from farming, to manufacturing to technology - today other countries do the manufacturing as we - in the lead - move on to a technology economy). The more China depends upon the USA and the more the USA depends upon China for trade and commerce the safer the world becomes. Would China attack the USA or even really piss us off if, say, 1/3 of their GNP came from America's Walmart? Could Japan every again afford to attack/distance itself from the USA?

There are some articles out now saying that the industrial monopolies, like big steel, didn't hurt the industry at all. They helped it a lot. They bought out competitors and hired those workers. Steel prices dropped by 50% or more, leading to the boom of skycrapers and cars. It brough steel made goods into the hands of the middle class etc. The ecomony boomed and the world changed from say 1885 and 1920. Sure, a small number of folks lost their jobs as a result.

But say, when was the last time you went to a shoe repair store, or had your typewriter fixed? I'm sure those guys don't think very much of you! Do you every purchase something like a computer, VCR, camera, furniture, toys, home decorations based upon price? Do you pay our baby sitter, lawn man, snow plow guy the lowest amount of money they will accept? Do you complain when your taxes go up so that teachers, garbagemen can have more money? Above I said you (and me) are as gulity as WM. I take that back, we are much worse!

WM, at least, is a business and with all businesses their responsibility is to their shareholders (owners) first. What you and I do (have done) to the lawn mower guy and the shoe repair man is simple, personal greed (funny how that "looking out for #1 only" attitude which has always existed, makes the world and our lives function so succesfully 99% of the time).


paul

geeman
12-14-2006, 10:08 AM
Paul is right to a point.We DID allow ourselves to bask in the glow of lower prices,which cost us in the long run.The wife and I are noticing a reduction in the amount of different product selection at our local WM.In the Meds departments we have noticed they are cutting choices . It seems every trip we make wife comes out of the meds complainning she cant get her leg cramp meds anymore,they seldom have her inhaler on the shelf, which means we have to go to CVS to find it.Wife has many prescriptions that have to be filled frequently.Each week theres one or 2.Its become common for WM to try to charge her the full price when her insurance was supposed to cover it.When she catches it they just say "OOPS" and correct it.I wonder how many people dont get it and pay more then they were supposed to?
WM made it hard for the mom n pops to compete ,in this area driving them out of business,now they themselves are cutting down on shelf items,which was supposed to be their biggest advantage,Having what you need when you need it.I have ask employees why items are being cut back and they say its because those items dont sell well.Well, WM was supposed to be the store that carried any item you needed.We now are going to other stores to find items,and each time I buy an item somewhere else instead of WM, I e- mail their corp site and let them know they lost another sale.Sure I'm just a drop in the bucket for WM,But it makes me feel better.
Recently we started having problems with Wm stopping people as they left the store demanding to check receipts,it got to be a constant thing.I got on line and e-mailed WM again at their corporate site and complained.I also got on line and joined a WM site that calls them to taskThe last 2 trips to WM has been much more relaxing as they have (so far) stopped the constant harrassment of customers.

Bob Adams
12-14-2006, 11:27 AM
I must be the only one here in the Wal Mart supply chain.It's more than their employees earning poverty wages, the employees of the suppliers are being destroyed also.

merlinron
12-14-2006, 12:05 PM
forget about the price cutting and the such, that's just normal buisiness done by any large buisness anywhere in the world that can buy in the volume wm does, that is the advantage of being big, and rightly so, that's simple supply and demand. you can't blame them for that. it's the low pay vrs. profits, using lot's of part time help to get past paying bennies "disguise" and the take-it-or-leave-it attitude that is killing america in walmarts case. after all, they are, "the country's largest employer",....sounds good to the unitiated and they get a big slap on the back from the government for employing thousands, but the methods they use to gain that title are keeping a large portion of the country's workforce stagnated in what i call a "working welfare" condition. it's an unethical large scale disguise creating a slow small scale economic suffocation.
there are other conditions also....they affect the entire working force. other companies see the methods and try to follow. acruity rates on pension funds of large labor force companies everywhere are being cut with the attitude that retirees will simply have to go out and get a part time job to make up for the cut in monthly pension check, as a result we now have thousands of people that should be out of the work force to make room for the younger ones that need the part time job while in school, competing for the jobs that should be allowing them to go to school. they can't afford to go to school because the "retired people" ,who don't need the beifit side of the paycheck anyways, are taking the jobs. wm is happy to hire these people because they know there will not be any labor problems about benifits from them. a large number of potential scholars don't attend college and the population's educational status as a whole goes down,... it is hapening now.

Phillip Allen
12-14-2006, 12:09 PM
The government is the largest employer...and the majority of the employees vote to maintain the status quo…with their collective hand in the pockets of the rest of us

Rick Starr
12-14-2006, 12:09 PM
A lot of people seem to want to blame walmart for the results of their own shopping habits.

Phillip Allen
12-14-2006, 12:11 PM
"Not my fault for raping her Judge...it's hers for being a woman!"

Bob Adams
12-14-2006, 12:31 PM
I used this line a while back, but it's still relevent:

You see an American drive his Hyundai to Wal Mart, fill it with Chinese goods while bitching about the loss of his good paying manufacturing job.

Phillip Allen
12-14-2006, 12:34 PM
they ain't no $60/hour jobs down here in the South (turning screws on a line in Detroit)...but the Detroit "workin man" has (had) his hand in our pocket...

merlinron
12-14-2006, 12:46 PM
phillip allen....
excuse me, the"largest retail employer"... a job area that the "average joe" can get.

Kaa
12-14-2006, 12:46 PM
The longstanding attitude of economic Darwinists is that people simply don't matter, and that any benefit they might derive can only be a consequnce of the largesse of the corporations they work for.

Umm, no?

The attitude of economic Darwinists is that in open and free markets (such as the labor market) the Adam Smith's invisible hand works perfectly well. When governments meddle, they usually make things worse.

Stringent worker rights tend to cause an economy that's sclerotic, sluggish, and doesn't generate new jobs. A classic symptom is youth unemployment -- e.g. in France more than 20% of the people between the ages of 18 and 25 are unemployed. That's the price you pay for making it hard to fire people...

Kaa

Gary E
12-14-2006, 01:28 PM
Manufacturing is the US has been declining for well over 30 yrs, and it's not comming back..ever.

Why would anyone start a plant in the USA and be subject to...
... OSHA
...EPA
...HIGH domestic wages
...Local taxes, state taxes..FED taxes

When they can start the same factory offshore and be subject to NONE OF THE ABOVE...

and they have ONE HUGE HELPER IN THIS INTIRE DEAL...

The OVERSEAS PRIVATE INVESTMENT CORP
and the partner in this deal is YOU
http://www.opic.gov/

OPIC is FUNDED BY YOUR TAX $$ and has been since the early 70's.

THE US TAXPAYERS are FOOKed and they have no way to stop it.

Buy WALMART STOCK... get in on the game.

Kaa
12-14-2006, 01:55 PM
Sorry, that argument, which is treated by some as some sort of revelation from God himself, fails to hold water. Totally free and unregulated markets lead to high economic efficiency... and even higher economic inequity. The maxim works great, if you're in the monied class.... and piss poor, if you're not.
Well, if you look at economic history, there's a pretty good correlation between economic growth and lack of regulation. Sure, there are exceptions (Japan in the 70s comes to mind) and all kind of shades of grey, but as a first approximation, less regulation = more growth = more wealth for everyone. Yes, it's likely the spread between the rich and the poor will be greater, but your "poor" will be better off than the equivalent slice of population in a country where the growth stagnated because of overregulation.



Totally unregulated markets lead to high efficiency, all right... and they also lead to monopolies, kleptocracies, lowered standards of living for working people, worse envronmental conditions, and a whole host of other societal ills.... but they do make the rich substantially richer.
You're handwaving. Monopolies, yes, that's why free-market people are generally fine with anti-monopoly regulation. After all, monopolies are the opposite of the free market. Kleptocracies -- nope, a highly-regulated economy has many, many more opportunities to set up a kleptocracy than a free one. Lower standards of living -- nope, not necessarily, over long term higher growth rates beat all, a rising tide lifts all ships. Worse environmental conditions, again, not necessarily -- look at the former Soviet Union for examples.


You're pointing out the dilemma of people whose vision has an extraordinary defect: they cannot ever see shades of gray, only stark black and white. Thankfully, most of us in the reality based community are aware that the world is a place of shadings, colors, and nuances.
I don't know why you think I'm color-blind :-) My original post was about you wrongly defining economic darwinism, anyway. I am not talking about absolutes, I'm talking about shifts and directions. For example, I consider most of today's Europe to be overregulated. That doesn't mean I want a return to the robber-baron days of late XIX century.


A lot depends on just WHO you want to benefit. America as a whole? If so, then there are indeed limits on what ought to be left to the 'free market', and what has to be limited, constrained, and or regulated.
You are forgetting the issue of government competency. Again, historically when governments meddle in economy they make things worse more often than not. The choice is not between no regulation and regulation by perfect omniscient unbiased beings -- you get regulation by politicians which are typically clueless and VERY biased.


In the world of business, the only motivation is profit. Corporations do not have ethics, morals, or consciences, only people do.
That's a GOOD thing. Do you really want corporations to act on moral motivations? Be careful what you wish for. Why do you think their morals will match yours?

Kaa

Kaa
12-14-2006, 02:50 PM
... but you can't tell me that this can be good for America, as a whole.
You keep talking about that "good for America as a whole" -- I am not sure I understand it. America is a diverse place with lots of different people who have wildly different needs and preferences. Most anything you can do will be to someone's benefit and someone else's detriment.

How do you figure out if something is "good for America as a whole"? There is the utilitarian approach (60% gain $10, 40% lose $10, there's net gain, so it's good for everyone) but I doubt you'll favor it...


The lesons of Enron and other similar scandals.... give a wealthy person the opportunity to get a LOT wealthier, and he'll all too often take that opportunity.... even if it's an illegal one. ... Thier theft was only slightly hampered by regulation... would you want to loosen what regulations exist and make it even easier?
LOL. You seem to be arguing that the solution to crime (which is defined as breaking the law) is more laws. Really?

Besides, if you are talking about opportunities to get a LOT wealthier by illegal means, I'll argue that a poor person is more likely to take such an opportunity that a wealthy person (see utility theory).


Not much reason to look elsewhere.... all I have to do is look at income gowth, by quintile, adjusted for inflation, here in the US. The numbers don't lie, and can't be contorted or twisted: the top quintile has seen thier income and wealth grow nearly exponentially in the last 35 years, while those in the middle quintile barely saw any increase whatsoever.
Please quote numbers and source.


I'm adamantly opposed to useless, ineffective, or harmful government regulation.... but I'm highly in favor of useful, purposeful, carefully drawn, and fair government regulation. The trick is to reject the bad stuff, and keep/enhance the good stuff.
Heh. When you find a way to do this in practice, tell me. I'll move to that place :-)


The fact that some or even much of it is bad is NOT an adequate justification for scrapping most of it.
Well, no -- if much of it is bad, that a perfectly good reason to scrap most of it. I don't see why not.


I point this out because the 'free market' will not preserve our environment, improve the lives of working people, or accomplish any number of worthwhile social goals... only we can do that, and by proxy, government.
I disagree. I think you're correct about the environment (that's a classic tragedy of the commons issue) and wrong about everything else. The Western countries got to where they are now precisely because of free markets and not because their governments were more enlightened than say, a Chinese or a Russian one.

Kaa

Dan McCosh
12-14-2006, 03:42 PM
I'm all in favor of the rising tide lifting all boats (about as stupid a cliche as I've ever heard)... but if all boats are not being lifted equivalently, there's something wrong.

A friend says the phrase ought to be "A rising tide lifts all yachts."

Kaa
12-14-2006, 03:55 PM
Fair enough... it's pretty hard to define what is good for America 'as a whole'... but when one small class of citizens benefit dramatically, and another class either don't benefit, or suffer, I'd argue that it's most certainly NOT good for America as a whole.
That's a bad definition. Say, a pharmaceutical company comes out with a new drug that successfully treats a moderately rare disease. Who benefits? A very small class of that company's employees and shareholders, plus those who suffer from this disease. What about the rest of Americans? They don't benefit at all. So is this "certainly NOT good for America as a whole"?


Someone has to explain to me why wealthy economists and rich capitalists (like most of the Bush administration) tell us repeatedly that our economy is doing so much better in the past 5 years... while 'the economy' is quoted as the #2 concern, behind Iraq, in national polls. It's pretty simple, really; the economy is great for one segment of our society... and not so good for another.
Well, reasonable economists (not saying all of them are :-) ) use generally accepted metrics and statistics to measure how the economy is doing. If you feel they don't represent what you are interested in, you're welcome to come up with your own metrics.

So, by which metrics the economy is "not so great" and why they are more important than other, commonly used ones?


Similarly, we trumpet our gains in productivity, but much of those gains comes from outsourcing manufacturing jobs, which decieves the statistic; a company I worked for some years back closed it's Massachusetts factory and shipped production to the Phillipines, dropping the workforce for that particular division from 100 people to 3 without affecting sales, so needless to say, thier productivity skyrocketed...
I think you are wrong about how the productivity is measured. Outsourcing by itself does not increase the productivity numbers.


I'm all in favor of the rising tide lifting all boats (about as stupid a cliche as I've ever heard)... but if all boats are not being lifted equivalently, there's something wrong.
Boggle. Why? Why in the world all the good things that happen must happen to everyone equally or you don't consider them good?


Do you think Lay and Skillings could have stolen hundreds of millions if there were better laws compelling more open and honest accounting within corporations?
Why, yes, I do think so. They might have used different methods, but the end results would have been the same.


It sounds logical... but I think the facts in evidence belie that.
Really? You are going to argue that wealthy people are more likely to commit crimes for financial gain than poor people? Remember, there are many, many more way to illegal riches than backdating stock options.


Actually, if you've made a recent trip to China, as my wife did, you'd see that the liberalization of their society, in economic terms, did indeed result in a dramatic improvement in average Chinese lives
Well, that's exactly what I'm arguing for. Free markets (and not government regulation) create wealth, freedom, and, as you put it, achieve "worthwhile social goals".


When the majority of Americans no longer feel that they are fairly participating in the economic growth of the country... and when they see that only small segments of our society are making the greates gains, far out of proportion to their share... people increasingly view that as 'unfair' and 'un-American'. I'm not suggesting anything all that radical here, by any means.

Well, what are you suggesting, then?

It's very interesting to observe how, when faced with the gap between the poor and the rich, the left-leaning people always choose to bring the rich down instead of pulling the poor up... :-)

Kaa

Bob Cleek
12-14-2006, 04:58 PM
Wallmart is simply the poster child for retail reality. The economics of scale permit huge discounts in the cost of goods. This is to the benefit of everyone who shops there.

The marketplace dictates the price. While it is true that many American worker have lost jobs to offshore sourcing, the reality is that somebody simply built a better mousetrap. They need to live with it. I'm a strong supporter of organized labor, but when that labor builds something nobody wants to pay for, it's realy besides the point who it is that does that.

On the other hand, "dumping" products on the market which are underpriced, as subsidized by a governiment, isn't fair. Our choices are to ignore such products and "buy American" or quit out bitchen.

If you dropped out of high school to work the assembly line, and find you are now out of work because a high school GRADUATE in a foreign country will do your job fo less, you have nobody to blame but yourself. Sellf-employed workers and professionals have realized this for eons. It is only the "wage salves" who are upset because nobody can afford to pay them for the work they do at the prices they demand. The solution is simple, develop new job skills and move on.

geeman
12-14-2006, 05:09 PM
I dont think its as simple as developing new job skills and moving on.This country was partly built on our "industrial might".If we continue to out source to other countries,what happens in the future if/when we need those factories to crank out "product" for defense,call what very well could be the enemy and wave the written contract he signed?

Dryer lint
12-14-2006, 06:01 PM
Manufacturing is the US has been declining for well over 30 yrs, and it's not comming back..ever.

Why would anyone start a plant in the USA and be subject to...
... OSHA
...EPA
...HIGH domestic wages
...Local taxes, state taxes..FED taxes

When they can start the same factory offshore and be subject to NONE OF THE ABOVE...

and they have ONE HUGE HELPER IN THIS INTIRE DEAL...

The OVERSEAS PRIVATE INVESTMENT CORP
and the partner in this deal is YOU
http://www.opic.gov/

OPIC is FUNDED BY YOUR TAX $$ and has been since the early 70's.

THE US TAXPAYERS are FOOKed and they have no way to stop it.

Buy WALMART STOCK... get in on the game.



as I said in my original post. dont blame wal mart for folowing the rules and profiting from them.

change the federal government to change the rules if you dont like what you got

geeman
12-14-2006, 06:15 PM
I think , Bob Cleek you will find that the "wage salves" you speak of , are most of the working people in this country,that you with a few typed words insulted.

Dryer lint
12-14-2006, 06:21 PM
who profits from a "global economy"?

Gary E
12-14-2006, 06:24 PM
as I said in my original post. dont blame wal mart for folowing the rules and profiting from them.

change the federal government to change the rules if you dont like what you got

You and whose army?

The system is in place because the manufacturers want it this way and they have the politicians in their pockets...

In other woids... YOUR SCREWED...

How much do you know about OPIC?
Did you know it even existed ?
Did you know YOU are paying for it?

Dryer lint
12-14-2006, 06:31 PM
yep nothing we can do, were truly fu-ked

time to start praying

( or better yet just bitch about walmart)

maybe we should bitch to god about walmart?

Stiletto
12-14-2006, 06:31 PM
I dont think that what Bob Cleek posted was an insult to working people, more an accurate description as to why they are the victims in the economic machinations of corporations.

I am self employed but still think of myself as a working man, (I'm certainly not much of a businessman.) the difference is that I have to take responsibility for my own economic wellbeing .

Bob Cleek
12-14-2006, 06:42 PM
It isn't that I don't have sympathy for Americans who are out of work (remembering that unemployment is at its lowest rate in history), but, rather, I take exception to the proposition that some of those people seem to feel that they are entitled to prosper, irrespective of the economic realities. If you work in a factory making widgets and the company shuts down the factory because they can buy widgets for half the price from Taiwan, can you blame them? Bottom line, you're **** out of luck. You need to go find another job, simple as that. The solution is not making widgets artificially expensive so widget makers in the US can continue to employ American employees.

You have to look at it from a global perspective. For a long, long time, the US has engaged in economic imperialism. Pay cheap wages in the Third World so that we can buy goods at a lower price, with a higher profit to the marketers. We have been profiting for years from the labor of children chained to sewing machines in Indonesia. (yes, I know, perhaps an exaggeration). Half the clothing we are wearing was made offshore. Now, if that US widget maker were earning what he used to making widgets, all things being equal, he'd also be paying top dollar for the clothing on his back. On balance, he'd be worse off than otherwise. Who is it that shops at Walmart? Well, a lot of those widget makers do, that's for sure! You can't have your cake and eat it too.

The world owes nobody a living. I pity the folks living north of me who, for generations, relied on the timber industry for their livelihoods. Hard working, decent people raising families. Well, the timber industry isn't what it used to be for a variety of reasons. As a consequence, whole communities have turned into ghost towns. Many people have been turned out to seek something else to do. It doesn't matter if they are the bottom of the totem pole, or top management. If people don't buy enough lumber, there isn't a living cutting and milling it. This is, essentially, no different than any other industry. Time was, we competed with ourselves. Now we compete on a global scale. America still comes out ahead, with a standard of living far beyond most everywhere else. We cannot, however, snivel when some one of our offshore neighbors is able to produce widgets cheaper than we can. The solution is simple: Either find a way to make cheaper widgets than the competition, or find another job.

This shouldn't be an insult to anyone. It is reality. To encourage folks in a tight spot because their work is no longer available to feel somehow treated unfairly does them no good. They should be encouraged to change course and produce that which others want and cannot produce economically themselves.

That said, from what I know of Walmart's practices, it is a greater wrong that Walmart basically extorts low prices from its manufacturers overseas, a practice made possible by Walmart's huge buying volume. Walmart is keeping the incomes and standards of living of those workers low by twisting management's arm. Don't think that Walmart passes along those savings proportionately, either. Walmart will charge whatever the market will bear for what it sells, given that they undercut everyone else, it seems. They are still making the maximum profit, considering their volume and overhead.

On the plus side, remember that no matter how bad it gets, you'll always be able to get a job with Walmart as a "greeter" when your Social Security won't cover your living expenses!

geeman
12-14-2006, 06:46 PM
I'm aware of the clothing we wear being made over seas.My home town is now a ghost town because the plants shut down.And the furniture industry out sourcing.

Gary E
12-14-2006, 06:47 PM
Cleek,
Guys like you will ONLY understand when YOUR industry has been reduced to makeing 6buks an hour, after all, a mouthpiece only costs a bowl of rice, now can you compete with that price?

geeman
12-14-2006, 07:03 PM
Find another job,easy for you to say that Bob Cleek,you live in the frisco area.What about the 100,000s of people that dont live in such areas? people that were born for generations in back areas that always had work in the facturies to fall back on.As long as they were willing to work they had a job.Those folks have no chance now.Its easy for folks living in the ivory towers to talk about what other people should do,their not the ones that have lost or are about to lose everything they and sometimes their fathers and grandfathers worked for.The people that grew up being taught that all you had to do was be willing to work hard and you could always find a job.What about those folks Bob Cleek? Re educate them?Bob Cleek is out of touch with the rest of the country, so caught up in facts and figures he forgets about the majority of the people in the country.Re educate he says,,,,,,,,

geeman
12-14-2006, 07:07 PM
Sorry about the rant, I get caught up in emotion when I think about all the people I know that have worked all thier lives and worked hard,and now cant find a job.

Bob Cleek
12-14-2006, 07:45 PM
"Guys like you will ONLY understand when YOUR industry has been reduced to makeing 6buks an hour, after all, a mouthpiece only costs a bowl of rice, now can you compete with that price?"

Well, I've rode a few jobs into the ground myself over the years. As for the Bay Area, you're right, it surely isn't a "company town" that is dependent upon a single industry. Sometimes, though, you have to move. My old man came out here in the depths of the Depression as a young kid. No work in Missouri. He took a job shoveling chicken sh1t in Petaluma while he went to school. He never got wealthy, but he lived comfortably enough and raised four kids. Things would have been different if he had stayed in Missouri waiting for work that didn't exist!

There ARE LOTS OF JOBS. Really. Off the top of my head, I can tell you that the Marin Co. Sheriff's Department, the San Francisco Police Department, Department of Corrections and the California Highway Patrol, along with just about every other public safety outfit here is advertising on TV and the sides of busses for recruits. Cops here make between $75,000 and $100,000 plus with overtime. Three percent of your highest pay in grade at the time of retirement at age 50 for each year you work. One for one credit for years you've been in the service. Requirements, AA degree (junior college), clean drug test. A functioning heartbeat. They can't find anybody who wants the job. AND, you can bet they won't be shutting down the police department anytime soon.

Now, if I had kids to feed and the mill shut down, I'd be thinking real hard about taking one of those cop jobs.

Again, I am 100 percent on the side of the guys who have lost their jobs, but I'm not about to let them sit on their hands and feel sorry for themselves. There ARE options and opportunities and lots of them. They are just different from what they used to be and we have to adapt.

And Norm, you're absolutely right about the artifiical manipulation of the marketplace. That was what my comment about Walmart's leaning on suppliers was referencing. Same thing works both ways. Japan has trade limits on rice and produce to support their small family farms. You go to the SFO airport and you'll see every Japanese flying out has a kilo of California rice to declare. Their homegrown rice is far more expensive than our domestic product and, so they say, much better tasting. They can bring in a kilo duty free, I guess, so they all do.

brad9798
12-14-2006, 07:58 PM
Folks that worship and spend all their money at walmart are the perps ...

WM is the epitomy of free enterprise ...

Don't like it? Well, then each of us should back to paying anywhere from 5-75% MORE at the mom and pop stores ... and we should also be patient enough to accept that many m&p stores will have to special order what we may desire ... so add another 10-20% to the costs.

Walmart saves middle class and lower middle class folks thousand a year.

They beat others at their own game.

They could not continue to do so if they offered anything other than what the majority of the buying public demands.

Supply and demand at its best.

I VERY OFTEN see the same items at WM for less than half what M&P Stores want to charge me.

Bad benefits? Then don't work there.

I'm becoming more of a fan every year.

Where else can I get a Big Mac, new tires and oil change, groceries, lcd TV, landscaping materials, etc. without leaving a single building?

Pretty sure that sums it up ... but I am becoming invisible, evidently!

Issues with WM? Stop shopping there ... pay more at the M&P stores.

We are still free to shop at M&P stores I believe ... :confused:

geeman
12-14-2006, 08:01 PM
Last I heard those cop jobs your talking about require at least a high school education.These folks I know dont even have that,some didnt finish grade school.Move to another area, right,,,a lot of these people have never been out of the county much less move across the country.They wouldnt survive the culture shock much less a be able to deal with a new job.They only know what their fathers knew,how to work hard, they dont have a clue about globalization.They only know the plant shut down and their out of a job.

geeman
12-14-2006, 08:04 PM
As I 've said before in other threads,apparently where you live there ARE other shopping choices.Not here,WM ran em all out of business.So they have the business locally,and now tend to stock WHAT THEY WANT to SELL.After all when your the only game in town,there is an advantage.

Dryer lint
12-15-2006, 06:36 PM
not what they want to sell- what people want to buy- not necessarly what YOU want to buy. it is all computerized- the stuff that sells the best stays on the shelves- its shipped in daily if necessary. if its a low sales item it eventually isnt stocked. speacialty items that arent the demand of the masses arent wmarts bread and butter. that is where the small specialty stores have an opening. finding that opening is what a lot of them fail to do.

Dryer lint
12-15-2006, 06:38 PM
I probably make 90% of my discretionary non food item purchases online. Im wondering what the rest of your buying patterns are. Could not the internet be blamed for putting mom and pop out of business more so than wal mart?