It sucks to be an American IT professional.

[Milo Christensen]

It's the day of the long knives here at work. Lot's of programming and testing and QA people being told; "We appreciate your 20+ years of unceasing effort to automate your job out of existence". Rumours flying, people being called into the special room, some smiling as they leave, many looking scared, some angry.

Jobs just aren't here in Michigan. Houses aren't selling, so how can they up and leave?

There are extra security personnel in the IT area.

Hopefully, since I switchd to operations, I'm safe, safe so far anyway, but the day isn't over yet. I'm probably safe, nobody in their right mind, no matter how desperate, wants my job anyway. I hope nobody wants my job. I really do think I'm safe.

But I've been there, done that, got the scars, and left all the company T-shirts in the bottom drawer when I was escorted out the last time.

[Osborne Russell]

Good luck & may the force be with you !

That's pretty rad with the extra security. I guess bringing people to the verge of psychosis is a cost of doing business.

[Chris Coose]

Milo,
I reread this as if there was a maniac machine gunner in the building.
Sounds like you should hurl into your desk waste basket and take the nearest exit.

Good luck.

[Kaa]

One of the big economic advantages the USA has over Europe and Japan is that it's easy to fire people. There are no guarantees of lifetime employment and that's a good thing.

If you're worried about your job, the best thing to do is to maintain a high level of marketable skills. I've never seen smart and competent people have problems finding jobs.

Kaa

[Canibul]

do the people wear turbans, smile through their beards, and shake their heads back and forth while saying 'yes'?

My wife could tell you reams about outsourcing, its pro's and con's and life after having to deal with India.

try calling a Hewlett Packard help desk....
Funny how they have buttons to push for Spanish, French, Italian, but none to press for real English.


damn. I am doing it again, aint I...

[Milo Christensen]

One of the big economic advantages the USA has over Europe and Japan is that it's easy to fire people. There are no guarantees of lifetime employment and that's a good thing.

If you're worried about your job, the best thing to do is to maintain a high level of marketable skills. I've never seen smart and competent people have problems finding jobs.

Kaa

It has reached the point where age discrimination in IT anywhere in America is so rampant that it doesn't matter how smart and competent you are, you are essentially unemployable over age 42. Then there's the fact that this is Michigan, which will be the first of the 50 states to drop into third world status.

[Canibul]

I read something, sometime, along the lines of,
"the secret is this: never be afraid to give up what you are, for what you might become".

Maybe its time to think outside Michigan. I know thats not so easy, believe me.

[John of Phoenix]

I reread this as if there was a maniac machine gunner in the building. Maybe tomorrow...

Great timing. Why don't they do this during the summer?

Good luck Milo.

[geeman]

I hate to ask a stupid question, but what is IT?

[John of Phoenix]

Information Technology, aka computers.

[TomF]

Good luck Milo, good luck.

[huisjen]

Then there's the fact that this is Michigan, which will be the first of the 50 states to drop into third world status.

I hear stories about southern Illinois, and there's Arkansas too...

Dan

[Henning 4148]

Don't let the fear eat your spirit. Whatever may come for you, you can survive.

[Cec]

Our company was bought by a group in Chicago. They don't know the industry, but they know dollars and bottom line economics. The owners that started this place took good care of everyone and took good care of me as they left, giving me a very decent raise so I wouldn't have to rely on the new guys that came after.

Everyone here is a bit concerned, myself included. The new guys aren't sure they need a System Admin, but they're not sure they don't need me.. two weeks ago the main server failed and I worked around the clock to bring it back online. The company was down for a day instead of several so I'm a hero for right now. The trouble is, in IT, you're only as well loved as your last successful upgrade....

Good luck to you... I know how you feel....

[Paul Pless]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo Christensen
Then there's the fact that this is Michigan, which will be the first of the 50 states to drop into third world status.


I hear stories about southern Illinois, and there's Arkansas too...

Dan


don't forget 'bout Mississippi;)

[GregW]

We had an interesting situation here a couple of weeks ago.
Third quarter results come out, we are doing great, on schedule to meet and surpase our corporate goals, sun is shinning, everyone is feeling good. Next day 20 people let go, almost all of them with well over 15yrs seniority. A few days latter a bunch of temp help was hired...go figure.

[WillW]

After 25 years in IT (project manager, business analyst, technical writer, consultant), I've taken my lumps too -

the great post-Y2k slump. Worked 3 months out of the year.
the early 90's
the great recession of '80-82

After all that, it would be tempting to say that these things are cyclical, and you just have to hang in there, but industries do change and become smaller and more competitive. (If you want a tough industry, try farming some time.) Also, with the auto industry under pressure, it sounds like the entire economy is under pressure, not just the IT industry.

However, I would say that I've seen some outsourcing contracts that have gone wrong. I've worked for a big bank that's in the middle of unwinding a very large outsourcing contract that proved to be extremely expensive and cumbersome, even detrimental to business because of its inflexibility. I view it largely as a fad for industries that can't get their act together.

However, you can re-position yourself to be competitive with the new trend. Every outsourcing contract needs project managers, business analysts, etc. Even if you don't want to participate, these types of jobs give you job security in terms of having much broader reach. It would also help to learn more - such as why this is becoming popular.

[Ed Harrow]

That's when the guillotine dropped at CTI/Helix four years ago... 25% poof/gone.

Good luck, Milo, I'm rooting for you!

[John of Phoenix]

We had an interesting situation here a couple of weeks ago.
Third quarter results come out, we are doing great, on schedule to meet and surpase our corporate goals, sun is shinning, everyone is feeling good. Next day 20 people let go, almost all of them with well over 15yrs seniority. A few days latter a bunch of temp help was hired...go figure.

They don't have all those expensive benefits with temps. I know a number of folks who were laid off from local tech companies only to be hired back to the same job at higher pay as consultants. Their take home pay was less after paying their own insurance, etc, but it was less expensive for the company to do it that way. It's all about the bottom line any more.

Some say they're lucky to have a job at all, which is true, but it's so much easier to let a consultant go on short notice than to fire an employee.

[Meerkat]

India has more IT "professionals" than the entire population of the US, according to "Frontline." Then, there's Russia and China...

If it's "free trade" why is there such a high cost in human misery?

[elf]

If it's "free trade" why is there such a high cost in human misery?

Greed.

[JimConlin]

Sporry to introduce another negative thought, but...
I don't know whether this applies in your situation, but if the prognosis for your local real estate market over the next 5-10 years is bleak, it might make sense to sell now and rent something. Consult your tax advisor.

[Canibul]

Wow. the mention of "CTI-Helix" brought back some memories. My first wife got cut by CTI-Helix, and we made a lot of changes as a result. It was fortunate that the environmental oceanographic business that I was in was doing well at the time. I made some minor threats, and they met my demands. We got through it.

Funny part of this is that this all took place in '76 or so. thirty years ago.

[Meerkat]

The new mantra is clear: "do you want chutney with your curry, saheeb?" ;)

[George Roberts]

No offense intended, but IT has changed.

I used to write a lot of software to help get jobs done.

Now I just make sure that programs work nice together.

(My server needs to reboot everynight to keep one program in line.)

[Milo Christensen]

We are coming from India and we are being carefully coached, oh my yes. We are wearing slacks and loafers and button down collars and most definitely we are wearing our after shave lotion, but, gracious me, we are not wearing too much of it. And we are not eating curry at work, oh my goodness no. But we are coming from India and we are arrogant, oh yes indeed, so very arrogant. And we are coming from India for only a short time and we are learning everything we can and we are taking what we have learned, which is so very, very much back to India with us. Soon there will be no need for anyone to be slaving away in a dreary cubicle in America, because, goodness gracious yes, we will be doing all of that kind of very dreary work here in India.

[Meerkat]

Just waiting for Rajasoft Windows! ;)

[Milo Christensen]

Just waiting for Rajasoft Windows! ;)

Oh, that is very good, oh my yes. I am having images of these 12 page long error messages explaining so apologetically why the system has crashed. Oh ha, ha, ha that is being so very funny. But just you wait until you have to call us at 3 a.m. in the morning to get technical support.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

I don't know, I've got a totally different point of view.

I worked full time as a programmer for about 2 years, then switched to doing the same exact work, but as a consultant making twice as much. As mentioned above, companies like it becasue they don't have to pay your benefits, vacation time, sick days. They feel that they have more flexibility to let you go if the market turns down, or hire more if the market turns up. I like it because if I work overtime, I bill for it (straight time, no premium). Employees are expected to put in as many hours as it takes to do the job... a lot of these poor guys work 60-70 hour weeks.

Turns out, that companies like that flexibility so much, that I've been at places where they axed half the employees but didn't touch the consultants. So, a job that you might think of as less secure, actually might be more so.

Some of your assignments may only last 3 months, but some, like the one I'm on now have been going on 4 years. As a consultant, you get used to changing jobs, and so it is not as stressful it might be if you are a full-timer. So, if one job ends, you just update your resume, call all your old associates who are working at other companies and see if you can get an interview.

Age descrimination? I doubt it. Unless the cantankerous nature of old farts counts as age descrimination. I've had to interview a lot of tech people, and I love old guys for the experience and wisdom they show. However, you do get some "old" guys (and by guys I mean guys/gals) who "think" old... they're stuck in one way of doing things, not open to trying a new approach, married to an old technology, not willing to learn a new one... if there is one reason why younger people tend to get the job, it is because they are not "old". And, they're willing to work cheap.

Is your technology obsolete? I used to be a mainframe COBOL programmer... when it started getting harder to find work, I started teaching week long classes in programming languages to other technical people who were trying to change streams. I was sent to classes to learn a language so that I could then go out and teach the language... so, I learned a lot of new stuff... which then opened up whole new doorways to consulting.

A lot of the classes I taught were actually held in Flint Michigan, so, there is a fair amount of technology there... but, if that gets too restrictive, Chicago isn't very far away.

So, Canibul is right about focusing on what you might become... good advice!

[Tylerdurden]

One of the big economic advantages the USA has over Europe and Japan is that it's easy to fire people. There are no guarantees of lifetime employment and that's a good thing.

If you're worried about your job, the best thing to do is to maintain a high level of marketable skills. I've never seen smart and competent people have problems finding jobs.

Kaa

Thats just ignooraant, offense intended. Though my job skills and occupation (never seen a layoff in 25 years) are very protected I know many brilliant and hard working people who have lost their jobs and most everything because of bean counters.
I don't know how many times I have heard that stupid statement before but every time I do I pray its lack of compassion is visited on the sender.

I am smart and have a very high level of marketable skills worldwide but I never put myself on an ivory tower. Bad things happen to good people all the time, its good to remember that.

[Tylerdurden]

Milo, good luck man. My brother at 58 had his company acquired and the layoffs come every quarter. Been sweating for three years because every dept. its the old farts who go first no matter how good they are. Service don't mean squat when everyones a number on a balance sheet. Someday we will learn to counter that but not now.

[Canibul]

you come across as such a nice, compassionate guy.

I, too, had a great job. I loved the job, and I was probably the best in the world at it. Certainly in the top two or three, by anyone's scale.

I would never get laid off. I was too good at what I did. And I never did get laid off.

What happened, instead, is that another company interested in just one small part of what we did bought our company lock, stock, and barrel. They had a counterpart to me, who couldnt stand the thought that after me spending 18 years of doing REAL good, I made twice as much as he did. The new managing director had a problem with me making more money, and having more freedom, than he did.

They told me I would have to give up working on the ocean, and start concentrating on measuring the flow of sewage. I told them to kiss it.

Guess what.

In hindsight, it was a good thing. Sometimes it takes an external jolt to move you off top dead center. You wont like it, of course not. Thats called inertia.

But you will survive it.

The flip side of every problem hides an opportunity. Grab it. Go for it. you have people who you can rely on who are still in positions of power. They will help you. start now. Dont wait for it to happen to you,
you make it happen.

[Kaa]

If it's "free trade" why is there such a high cost in human misery?

Strange, I see net reduction in human misery.

Try thinking about HUMANS, not just Americans...

Kaa

[Milo Christensen]

Well, canibull, telling people to kiss it is what's known in the world of the acronym as a CLM. Career limiting move. I've told 'em twice to kiss it. My resume is now toxic. I'm just looking to hang on for two years.

But there is a lot of good advice in this thread for the younger folks.

Kaa: It's pronounced caw, yes? As in the sound crows make as they inform other crows the rotting carrion has been located?

[Kaa]

Thats just ignooraant, offense intended. Though my job skills and occupation (never seen a layoff in 25 years) are very protected I know many brilliant and hard working people who have lost their jobs and most everything because of bean counters.
I don't know how many times I have heard that stupid statement before but every time I do I pray its lack of compassion is visited on the sender.

I am smart and have a very high level of marketable skills worldwide but I never put myself on an ivory tower. Bad things happen to good people all the time, its good to remember that.

LOL. Reading comprehension is a useful skill.

I'm not talking about "protected" jobs. I am not talking not being fired. I am not talking about nothing bad ever happening to you.

My point is that if you are smart and have marketable skills (smart includes realistic expectations, by the way), then losing a job is not the end of the world. You *will* be able to find a new job, oftentimes a better one than what you had.

There is no right to lifetime employment and I continue to think it's a very good thing.

Kaa

[Kaa]

Kaa: It's pronounced caw, yes? As in the sound crows make as they inform other crows the rotting carrion has been located?

Who's rotting carrion? :D

Kaa

[Milo Christensen]

Who's rotting carrion? :D

You give no name, no location. Who are you? Where are you? How old are you? What do you do?

[S/V Laura Ellen]

You give no name, no location. Who are you? Where are you? How old are you? What do you do?

His name is Kaa and he is wandering, so it is hard to have a definate location.

Milo: You need to read the "Be careful what you say" thread.
http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=59017

[Kaa]

You give no name, no location. Who are you? Where are you? How old are you? What do you do?

Hello and welcome to the internet :-)

I value my privacy and much appreciate the fact that googling my name brings up very little. I intend it to remain this way.

I live in the New York City area and am past the age of consent. I work full-time.

Counter-question to you -- why do you care? Will details of my biography make my words on this forums any different?

Kaa

[Concordia...41]

When I was in high school in North Alabama, a subsidiary of one of the auto makers built a large plant. It was THE opportunity of a life time. Good hourly pay, benefits, stock, but I didn't know anyone to put my application in the right stack...

I forget how many layoffs they've had, and they may even be closed. Those folks that went to work for them when they opened have / had 20+ years invested. Last I heard the stock was at .67 per share.

What's that county music song??? Something about 'thank God for unanswered prayers'

Milo - I'm a firm believer in the fact that things happen / or don't happen for a reason. You'll be fine.

- M

[Tylerdurden]

LOL. Reading comprehension is a useful skill.

I'm not talking about "protected" jobs. I am not talking not being fired. I am not talking about nothing bad ever happening to you.

My point is that if you are smart and have marketable skills (smart includes realistic expectations, by the way), then losing a job is not the end of the world. You *will* be able to find a new job, oftentimes a better one than what you had.

There is no right to lifetime employment and I continue to think it's a very good thing.

Kaa

I think Milo summed it up with "Carrion"
If you are in your fifty's your chances of re-employment are slim no matter how skilled you are. I broke my back in three places in my forties and without a name in my industry it would have been hard to be employed again because of the risk. I have seen it happen to others. I consider myself fortunate but I still think of those left behind. What the hell is wrong with you?
Is it ok to let someone go because they are a cancer survivor?
I have seen it happen and sure they sued but in the meantime the family lost their house and savings. Is that OK too?
Man, you really need to walk a mile in someone else's shoe's.

[Tylerdurden]

You give no name, no location. Who are you? Where are you? How old are you? What do you do?

Milo, his real name is scumbag and he feel's safe so he will keep it up.
Same kinda guy who will cut you off in traffic and give you the finger but will roll up his car windows and grab the cell phone when you approach. Not a real man at all if you know what I mean.
What goes around comes around, we have that on our side.

[Katherine]

Milo, this didn't used to be such a depressing state. :(

[Kaa]

I What the hell is wrong with you?

It's interesting that you think there's necessarily something wrong with those who disagree with you.


Man, you really need to walk a mile in someone else's shoe's.

That's a good method for dealing with aggravated people because then you're a mile away and you have their shoes :D

But really, what's the point that you are trying to make? Are you arguing that no one ever should be fired?

Kaa

[willmarsh3]

One way of getting around the outsourcing concern is to obtain a government clearance. It's more than a bit of an issue to outsource classified work to India or China. A friend of mine did this. Also having a clearance commands a high salary.

Best of luck.

Will.

[Garrett Lowell]

Milo, you need to move to where the jobs are: Here in Northern VA/DC/MD. The IT jobs market is excellent. Good luck.

[Canibul]

Onedoes not just wake up some morning and say "Gosh, I would like to do secret stuff for the government. I think I will go buy a clearance today".

Doesnt work like that. You need a sponsor, or some other good reason why you need access to information or technology that is classified as vital to keep under wraps.

And if you get a clearance through the company you work for, when you leave its gone. Same if your company is bought by a foreign company.

If you can get a contract to do work for a company that has a facilities clearance, you can start from there. But its not just something that a US citizen decides to do. Its not a birthright to have a security clearance.

[willmarsh3]

Canibul, all those points are true. That is more or less how my friend went through the process. Also to get cleared for a top secret clearance you have to undergo a polygraph, which I'm told is not the most pleasant thing in the world.

Will.

[tinyn]

India has more IT "professionals" than the entire population of the US, according to "Frontline." Then, there's Russia and China...

If it's "free trade" why is there such a high cost in human misery?
Read just t'other day that there are 370,000 computer science graduates coming into the Chinese workforce - per annum!

[Milo Christensen]

Milo - I'm a firm believer in the fact that things happen / or don't happen for a reason. You'll be fine.

- M

Thanks Margo. Marilyn and I have often talked about how everything that's happened to us had to happen or we would never have met. Having met and married, I've got all I really need, so I'm good.

[Old Sailor]

It was a Friday afternoon in June of 1985. 1,600 of us layed off and escorted out. (I was packed a week before). Actually it was kind of refreshing.
Old Sailor

[Cec]

It's the being Escorted Out that's such an insult .... most of those fired tend to be people who worked and really built the company, then new owners/management walk in, cut costs and let people go... then escort them to the door to protect their interests.

I'm not saying there aren't times it's best for security, but there are times it's just insulting....

[Nicholas Carey]

That's how I wound up out here in Seattle. "Right-sized" from a software firm in Ann Arbor in 1992 or 1993. Not much in the way of software jobs available in SE Michigan at that point in time.

Figured Michigan unemployment pays about the same no matter where I am...I had a friend out here. Software jobs available. Mountains. Salt water. What's not to like? :B

Still sucks though :( You've got my sympathies.

[Tylerdurden]

You know Milo, in my occupation over the past twenty five years I have seen some things mostly hidden from the average American.
When I started out if I had a machine with problems I could call the factory and if tech service couldn't help me they would transfer me to engineering. You were talking to an old school engineer who learned the business with a slide rule. You know the same guys who built Apollo, the skunk works things like that. They always had answers or would figure it out quickly. It was like calling home when you were in trouble. In the eighties those guys were let go because they were expensive and replaced by college boys who learned on computers.
Things went steadily downhill from there. Next they stopped sending prototypes out to the field, I lost a big chunk of business with that.
Now it comes off the CAD files and into the customers restaurant.
Never mind that the quality has dropped a lot, the stuff just doesn't work most often and has major problems from the get go. We out here in the field have to engineer most repairs then the factory is modifying it to our standards. Now my industry is overcome by recalls and one year model lines or parts critical to its operation are no longer available or so defective from the factory's going overseas that its hit or miss if it will run. I tell customers that I am a direct witness to the decline of civilization and its a fact.
These clowns who say its okay and globilazation is the answer are flat wrong. We cannot build **** anymore that works. So much has been lost I don't think we will ever get it back.
Like I say all the time, what goes around comes around and we are nearing full circle. Its a scary thought but we need to understand the consequences that are heading towards us like a freight train less its engineer. Soon we will hear the collective "oh ****e" I see that day coming quick.

[Gary E]

One piece at a time,
they'l take it one piece at a time......


400...Bosch Plant in Ark. to Close
Thursday December 14, 4:50 pm ET
Bosch Plant in Ark. to Close, 73 Workers to Lose Jobs

HEBER SPRINGS, Ark. (AP) -- A Bosch Tool Corp. factory will close by the end of 2007, and 73 of the plant's 400 workers are to lose their jobs in January, company officials said.

Company spokeswoman Becky MacDonald says workers will receive a severance package and state jobs training. She said the plant employed about 450 workers at the start of this year.

Bosch announced in 2004 it planned to close the Heber Springs plant and shift production to China. At the time of the announcement, the plant had 565 workers. The factory, which opened in 1979, makes circular saws under the Bosch and Skill brand names.
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061214/apfn_bosch_plant_closure.html?.v=1 (http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061214/apfn_bosch_plant_closure.html?.v=1)