Test of Gay Prayer

[Osborne Russell]

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/11/16/haggard_scandal




Even as he pledges to undergo further counseling, Haggard's comments have rekindled debate over the premise that people can overcome same-sex attractions through "reparative therapy." It's a concept espoused by many religious conservatives, and disputed by many mental health practitioners.

"Haggard is Exhibit A of how people can't change their sexual orientation," said Wayne Besen, a gay-rights activist and author.

"With all that he had to lose -- a wife, children, a huge church -- he had to be who he was in the end. He couldn't pray away the gay."

[Norman Bernstein]

There's rare anecdotal evidence of fervent Christian gays who claim that they have 'overcome' homosexuality via their religion... obviously, it would be impossible to prove whether they really were/are successful or not.

From what I've heard from the few here who are fervent Catholics, they are willing to acknowledge that homosexual feelings or psychology are intrinsic, but homosexual behavior is something that can be resisted. Once again, it's not really possible to prove, I suspect.

I do feel sorry for those gays who are conflicted between their sexuality and their religious beliefs.... it strikes me as more of a burden than ought to be borne by any person... but how they resolve the conflict is, and ought to be, their own business.

[John of Phoenix]

The gays I know have said in so many words, "I knew from before puberty that I was gay." and "No one in their right mind would choose to be gay!"

I've never heard a hypocrite say anything like that.

[Osborne Russell]

From what I've heard from the few here who are fervent Catholics, they are willing to acknowledge that homosexual feelings or psychology are intrinsic, but homosexual behavior is something that can be resisted. Once again, it's not really possible to prove, I suspect.

They also believe heterosexual feelings can be resisted, though their own clinical evidence raises serious doubts.

I was reminded the other day that Gandhi used to sleep with young girls to test and fortify his resistance to temptation. That's semi-scientific.

But when it comes to law and social policy, I think it's best to be realistic and conservative, don't you? If the facts are not abundantly clear, is it wise to proceed as if they were?

[ishmael]

To my understanding there are indeed people who are born homosexual. There are also a large number of people who are drawn to it for reasons of psychological discontent. And, I imagine people who are not in either category.

Ya see, what happens in these debates is that they become black and white, they become political footballs, and the poor people who are caught in the tornado get swept along. No one really cares about them.

If you were born homosexual, go be homosexual. I wish you well. It's the young people, who are caught in the storm, and get mired in relationships that are obviously political, that most concern me.

A large part of homosexual culture IS in fact psychological and political, not nature as intended. But people aren't willing to go beyond the gloss.

A really good book, for those who want to delve a little deeper, is June Singer's "Boundaries of the Soul." In it, one of her young male clients is having strong homoerotic dreams. She's not trying to cure him of homosexuallity, but she brings forth an understanding that in fact this homoeroticism is a desire for his own manhood, not a sexual need.

[George Roberts]

While I don't think people need to change their orientation ...

People who have addictions do overcome them sufficiently to lead "normal" lives.

I am sure a homosexual could overcome that orientation. I don't think it should be necessary to do so.

[Meerkat]

How about working on that addiction to breathing you have, George! :D

[geeman]

My brother is gay.Always has been.From the time we were little for Christmas I ask for guy stuff.My brother ask for dolls, doll houses,working toy kitchen, stoves counters etc.and any type of "girl" stuff you would associate with what females would ask for.It was always how he was and is.He cant help it, what is, is.

[Osborne Russell]

"Proud traditions of the evangelical movement!" snorted Churchill. "Meth, sodomy and the lash!"

[Ian McColgin]

My gay brother, unlike geeman's, never had any interest in dolls or "feminine" behavior. Just as there are a lot of different ways of being heterosexual and a lot of different ways of being bi-sexual, so too there are a lot of different ways of being homosexual, all cluttered with cultural and biological issues of dominence and submission, fecundity symbolic and actual, etc etc etc . . . The only simple point is that the narrow hetero-exclusive version of fundi-Christianity has little understanding of either human sexuality or - dare I show a blunt but well informed conclusion? - human spirituality.

(I think I'll get more at some of this in the Dawkins thread, maybe.)

[geeman]

Ian is right, not all show gay attributes as early as my brother did.I agree with his statement.I remember the family realizing which way my brother was going,all but mom and dad, they seemed in the dark.My mom never admiited it in fact,right up to the day she died.

[Ian McColgin]

Things are slowly getting better. When I first was getting clinical training, homosexuality was still regarded as a mental health problem. I risked failing a couple of courses as I just did not buy that particular pile and said so. I also when working with gay people clove to my typically materialstic line of finding it healthier to change (or try to change) society than to force fit some stereotype of sexual health.

Family rejection and denial are incredibly painful.

[ishmael]

I think of my dear friend, Lyle Wickliffe. He was an homosexual man(maybe bi, never determined), who taught a full run in the school system I grew up in. The best, THE BEST, teacher I knew in that system.

I wonder what energy went into hiding. He was, dear Lyle, as good a man as I've ever known.

[Osborne Russell]

It's an ideological imperative of middle eastern monotheism that homosexuality be un-natural. Otherwise their fundamental teachings are in that respect based on factual error. The question of factual error is not subject to dogmatic control outside the church.

First it was "the earth is round", next "the earth is not the center of the universe", then "the earth was not created to sustain man" and now "God created homosexuals."

Any time MEM depends at all on facts it is in jeopardy. The revelations are ancient and supposedly comprehensive and immutable but the facts keep changing. The only way to avoid the tension --which grows with each passing day, as understanding of the facts grows -- is to disconnect MEM from the facts. What are you left with?

[PatCox]

I hear prisons can temporarily cure one of heterosexuality, but the cure doesn't last long after you leave prison. I think they call it "gay for the stay."

[PatCox]

Ish, I can tell you that I have known a lot of people whose heterosexuality was psychological and political. They all tended to try way too hard at being sufficiently heterosexual to suit their own self image, and the image they wanted to project. There are some people, even, whose celibacy is psychological and political.

[TomF]

It's an ideological imperative of middle eastern monotheism that homosexuality be un-natural. Otherwise their fundamental teachings are in that respect based on factual error. ... The only way to avoid the tension --which grows with each passing day, as understanding of the facts grows -- is to disconnect MEM from the facts. What are you left with?Osborne, that's not true for all brands of MEM belief. Not, for e.g., for my brand.

[ishmael]

Pat,

No question, there are people who pass as heterosexual. Less and less these days, but still there.

Back in my bar hopping days I used to get hit on by homosexual men with regularity. Kinda fun to be in the prey position and tell the predator, no. I had one who refused to accept no for an answer, got my phone number, bordered on harassment.

I guess I was kinda cute, in my day.

People need to relax this muscle. I'm still against calling homosexual unions marraige.

[Osborne Russell]

Osborne, that's not true for all brands of MEM belief. Not, for e.g., for my brand.

1. Is the earth the center of the universe?
2. Did Jesus walk on water?
3. Did Jesus rise from the dead?
4. Will all the believers in Jesus be resurrected on Judgment Day?

[Osborne Russell]

I hear prisons can temporarily cure one of heterosexuality, but the cure doesn't last long after you leave prison. I think they call it "gay for the stay."

If so, then after your stay, the gay would go away, and it wouldn't hurt to pray. But if you were gay before the stay, you can't pray away the gay. Or can you? It will be a test of gay prayer. If the stayer stays gay even after the stay, what can you say?

[Meerkat]

If so, then after your stay, the gay would go away, and it wouldn't hurt to pray. But if you were gay before the stay, you can't pray away the gay. Or can you? It will be a test of gay prayer. If the stayer stays gay even after the stay, what can you say?Uh - they like being on their knees? :D

[Osborne Russell]

This precarious predicament was preciptitated by the prevaricating preacher whose prayers couldn't prevent the prediliction to probe the prostitute's pants; thus proving that prohibition provides the pontificator the pretext to practice his perfidy proudly in private while publicy pusillanimouly pretending to pronounce it perfidious, and pull it off.

[Meerkat]

How pedantically profound! :D

He probably would have been better off if he'd just pulled it off in private rather than resorting to a hustler. :D