Shipworm Barriers

[boatdrew62]

My brother in law and I are renovating a 31' cruiser that he and his wife can use to travel to and from the Bahamas. Since we live in the Fingerlakes region of New York State we have no first hand experience with shipworms or how to prevent them from entering the hull. This is a real concern to us and we have considered several ideas, for example, covering below the waterline with copper sheeting, covering below the waterline with fiberglass or polypropolyne cloth and epoxy, or, just using a high quality bottom paint and a worm shoe. Is there anyone out there who might have some experiences they would be willing to share as to what would be a good way to go. The boat will be spending a good deal of time there. Thanks in advance for any help.

[uncas]

Naw.. don't go to fiberglass... nor epoxy..
Two things.. a good bottom paint, two coats.. Down in MD where there are worms, many wooden boat owners put up a sacfificial piece of wood on the bottom.. unpainted...easy to remove... The snails will hit those pieces first.. Then every six months depending on where you are, when you haul to paint the bottom, you replace the sacrificial piece with a new one...
Does it work.. seems to...

[ssor]

When Lyn and Larry Pardey built Talesen(sp) they painted creasote on before they painted.

[uncas]

Ross. Sounds interesting.. I'm not sure about the smell in the interior and I'd be curious to know how well the bottom paint adherred to it.
I'm sure that the Pardeys had it figured out....

[martin schulz]

Copper sheathing is quite cool, although also quite expensive.
That has been the 1st choice method with working boats for ages. The advantage also having a permanent antifoul coating. Aluminum also works quite good.

Teredo novalis can only enter in bare wood and usually moves only 1,50m above ground. So when you have the chance to put the boat in sweetwater once in a while or have it moored in deep water and have a good quality paint you should'nt have any problems.

[rbgarr]

I'd go with the creosote option myself (if I could find it), but be aware that the Pardeys were building from scratch and are fanatically zealous about maintenance and thus are constantly on the lookout for dings and scrapes above and below the water.

[uncas]

Dave.. good point about the Pardeys... Built from scratch... I would think you would have to take all existing paint off the bottom before the application of any creosote....for it to soak in a bit. This may not be as expensive as copper but it will be time consuming...
I'd still go with a double coating of bottom paint and a shoe or sacrificial board....
If the owners are on board more than off, checking the condition of the shoe, the bottom paint, and the board should not be that difficult.

[paladin]

clean the bottom well....apply one coat of cheap bottom paint, then for the second coat mix 6-8 ounces of fresh cayenne pepper per gallon to the paint, well stirred and apply...good for at least a year in Maryland waters and has lasted almost 2 between Sta Lucia and the Chesapeake Bay....

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I was sufficiently scared by the "water temperature" readings of my through hull log (26 deg C in summer!) to apply a coat of (white) hard racing antifouling paint before the coats of (red) ablative antifouling paint.

I have a small piece of teak that I picked up from a corner of Hong Kong harbour; it is about 8 inches by four by two. On one side it is fine; the other three faces are like a sponge; in several places the clamshells of the teredo are still in the hole.

[paladin]

Andrew...just drop it in a pan of styrene monomer......everything dies....:D

[donald branscom]

clean the bottom well....apply one coat of cheap bottom paint, then for the second coat mix 6-8 ounces of fresh cayenne pepper per gallon to the paint, well stirred and apply...good for at least a year in Maryland waters and has lasted almost 2 between Sta Lucia and the Chesapeake Bay....

I have treated one side of my boat hulls with the cayenne pepper mixture and the other side without. When the boat was hauled
it looked the same on both sides -no difference.

If it worked EVERYONE would know about it BELIEVE ME.

[Thorne]

Use the search function here -- several long threads on this topic. Here is one more focused on the worm shoe than the hull protection -

http://www.woodenboat-ubb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=9159&highlight=worm+shoe

[Ian McColgin]

I use ceyanne with cheapest copper sloughing paint and it works better than cheapest without ceyanne and but a little better than expensive sloughing copper based. So, the thing with ceyanne is saving money.

If you've wooded the boat, priming the bottom with CPES before recaulking is a good idea. That stuff is so toxic it will discourage worms that get past any dings in the bottom paint.

[sdowney717]

If wood is exposed the worms enter in.
So what about it, bottom paint is only as good as its integrity.
OK, now WHY DO PROPS GROW BARNACLES, they are mostly copper, and yet some say copper sheet prevents barnacles. Just makes no sense that copper sheet is any good for antifouling.
All it does is help stop worms. But worm larvae will move along the hull looking for cracks to enter and if they can move in between sheets does it work very well really? Its expensive and no good as anitfouling and may work for worms somewhat.

Ok why not use permaflex from Sanitred.
www.sanitred.com.
The hull has to be bare wood and not oily.
I have used this on my own boat and almost ready to go back in.
Also they claim you dont need antifouling paint if you use this.
Rolls on well with a foam roller and covers in 2 coats. It will however seal out the salt water from the hull.

[sdowney717]

Actually Gribbles cause significant damage to underwater wood.
I bet some of you have seen it and simply blame it on wood worms.

"Christopher Columbus once had to delay a return to Europe because gribbles had rendered his ships un-seaworthy. When National Geographic Explorer-in-Residence Robert Ballard discovered the Titanic in 1985, gribbles had consumed all the exposed wood."

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/04/0423_040423_gribbles.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gribble
http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/Viaduct/Photos/Repairs.htm

[Kaa]

Speaking of copper sheathing, is fastening the copper sheets with nails the only proper way, or it's possible to epoxy the copper sheets to the hull? I'm basically concerned about the the thermal expansion differences between copper and wood...

Kaa

[Bob Cleek]

Copper is nailed on top of Irish felt. Creosote is often painted on the wood before the felt is laid down. Frankly, however, I believe that anti-fouling bottom paint is a better solution than copper and less expensive and labor intesive. If the coppering isn't tight, the buggers can find their way under it anyway and off they go. Bottom paint can be worked into the nooks and crannies better.

Worm shoes are really misunderstood. They aren't there for the purpose of providing marine borers with something to much on besides the hull. Rather, they are there because many boats take the ground at low tides and will wear off the bottom paint on the bottom of the keel. The sacrificial strip protects the hull where the paint will wear off. That's its purpose. It should be painted with anti-fouling, of course.

Cayene pepper added to bottom paint has never been scientifically proven to deter borers, as far as I know. (Where's the Chemist when we need him!) CPES, on the other hand, will deter borers because it toughens the surface of the wood and makes munching difficult. I would opt for CPES with a good bottom paint over all.

Coppering doesn't prevent marine growth all that much, either. Most coppered bottoms I've seen end up with bottom paint on them for this reason.

If you want to cook up "super" bottom paint, add tributyl tin in a sprit solution ("Di-al" mildewcite at the paint store) to the bottom paint. The more the merrier! It is, of course, illegal to sell bottom paint containing tributyl tin in most US states because it kills marine bugs, like terredos, gribbles and barnacles... go figure? As far as I know, it isn't illegal to make it and use it yourself.

[paladin]

a quarter million californian and mexican fishermen can't all be wrong....:D :D

[boatdrew62]

Thanks for the response everyone, this gives us many more ideas to consider. With luck and perserverence we'll be getting her wet next year.

[Dave Carnell]

I built my Bolger OTTER II in PA and brought it south to NC. I counted on high-quality bottom paint to keep worms out, but 10 years later she sank at the mooring, riddled by worms.

My two Simmons Sea-Skiffs lived in the same water over the next 12 years protected by a layer of 10oz fiberglass set in epoxy resin with not a speck of damage. Barnacles grew on the bottom paint, but no worms got through.

[uncas]

No method is perfect.. The only method that comes close is pulling the boat out once a year.. 2xs in the south to check over very carefully....
I still think that fiberglassing the bottom would cause a problem with moisture developing between the two materials.. wood and glass. Moisture can't excape... but that is just my opinion...

[sdowney717]

sanitred permaflex.
www.sanitred.com

It is hard rubbery shiny slippery type of stuff
Takes 2 coats to cover wood.
Make sure your first coat and any additional coats are thick!
Use a foam roller to spread it, dont be stingy and roll it out, this stuff gains strength from the thickness of the coating. I have also found that secondary coatings stick but, if your grinding on it with a belt sander, the layers can peel.
I found between coats is random orbit sand a little with 60 grit, wash and dry and thats good.
If possible your best to recoat the second coat within a couple hours of the first to form a chemical bond.
If not you need to then wash off the surface with dish soap because a slight oil may form on the surface as it cures. This will prevent any additional coats from sticking unless soaped off and rinsed.

I tell you truthfully, this stuff when hardened feels like glass it is so slippery and slick.
The company says marine growth will not stick to the surface.

[WoodenBNut]

If you go to www.woodenboatrepair.com, and the go to their boat restoration projects page and then scroll through the photos of "Fairlee", you will see that on that particular project they removed the bottom hull paint and then applied expoxy resin to the bare hull bottom planks. I would suppose they probably used CPES as a 1st coat before the epoxy. They say that the epoxy creates a worm barrier. Note that they did not use any kind of fiberglass cloth with the epoxy. I would also use a bottom paint that was loaded with copper, and or you could make your own bottom paint with the di-al as already suggested in this thread. Probably putting on a worm shoe attached to the keel would be a good idea also.
woodenboatrepair.com is Moores Marine web site. They are a very reputable wooden boat and other boat/yacht repair facility and have been in the business for a very long time. If they say epoxy resin over wooden bottom planks makes a worm barrier, I would believe them. I plan to do exactly that with one of the wooden boats that I am repairing. I have stripped the old bottom paint. Then applied CPES , then epoxy resin, then a bottom paint with 67% cuperous oxides content.

[Wild Wassa]

I painted a hull below the waterline with BoatCraft Pacific's Cop-R-Bote, a few days ago. BCP's products are available in the US.

Cop-R-Bote contains a suspension of copper particles in a 2 pack Bote-Cote epoxy system. This effectively sheaths the hull in pure copper metal. It is non-ablative. The manufacturer claims it is proven to increase boat speed because of its permanently slick smooth surface. This paint didn't fair itself and showed only slight self levelling characteristics. The manufacturers clams are arguable about being smooth (if you are not spraying).

This stuff is only going to be smooth and slick because of the prep done and I'm going to fair the new paint with a torture board. This has been a labour intensive job on a Cole 19. It took 6 1/2 working days in totall to remove the old anti-foul, prepare and fair the hull and keel, apply 2 barrier coats, on the hull and 3 on the keel, refair between all coats and then apply the antifoul. The keel was iron so particular attention was paid to blemishes and pinholes in the barrier coats. Also a separation gap of 3cm was needed around fittings, like the keel pin, to reduce galvanic reactions.

Cop-R-Bote is about $240AU for 1.5lts or $450AU for 3lts. Somewhat expensive but I can see where the value in materials has gone if you keep the copper suspended in the paint ... if you don't, it will be an expensive exercise for little-to-no result.

The weight of the paint was exhausting to use (it toned the muscles up big time), not just from continualy stirring the tin to keep the copper suspended or when decantered to a tray to keep the copper from settling out but also when applying the paint. I was painting above my head.

The material was fantastic to use, about as hard as it gets for payng attention to detail and keeping it on a brush. At the end of the job I poured out the leftover paint into a two trays to settle out the copper. I can practice cutting the top coat on these slabs before attacking the boat. One doesn't want to undo one's hard work ... tests like this can be invaluable when unfamiliar with new products.

The Copper adheres to the hull forcing the epoxy paint to the surface and the blue surface coat is then faired off to expose and activate the copper.

Two barrier coats of epoxy were painted onto the hull below the waterline firstly and then two thick uniform coats of Cop-R-Bote (equivalent to about 3 - 4 normal coats of paint in thickness per coat of antifoul) were applied wet-on-wet (a bit wetter than just tacked-off), while continually paying attention the having a uniform loading of copper on the brush and rollers. Definately do not use soft foam rollers with this stuff, the copper is so heavy it will tear even the thin, hard backed foam rollers apart, very quickly ... as I found out even when working as quickly as possible and changing rollers every four or five minutes.

Now it is time to strip the blue surface coat off the hull to activate the copper.

Photos can be found on http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=60923

Warren.

[kulas44]

I just can't go with the cayenne pepper theory, and I've heard it a lot. Some people swear by it, but just because it is an iritant to people doesn't mean it bothers Teredos. I grew a bunch of Habenjero peppers several years ago, that were so hot as to be inedible. These are what they use to make pepper spray for personal defense, terrible things these peppers. We threw them over the fence and my horses ate them like candy, didn't bother them a bit. If something can eat a peice of teak any other plant material must taste great.

[boylesboats]

If wood is exposed the worms enter in.
So what about it, bottom paint is only as good as its integrity.
OK, now WHY DO PROPS GROW BARNACLES, they are mostly copper, and yet some say copper sheet prevents barnacles. Just makes no sense that copper sheet is any good for antifouling.
All it does is help stop worms. But worm larvae will move along the hull looking for cracks to enter and if they can move in between sheets does it work very well really? Its expensive and no good as anitfouling and may work for worms somewhat.

Ok why not use permaflex from Sanitred.
www.sanitred.com.
The hull has to be bare wood and not oily.
I have used this on my own boat and almost ready to go back in.
Also they claim you dont need antifouling paint if you use this.
Rolls on well with a foam roller and covers in 2 coats. It will however seal out the salt water from the hull.

MOST PROPS ARE BRONZE

[boylesboats]

Have anybody ever thought about using sprayed on pick-up bed liner?
I have know several boat owner use it inside the cockpit or sole of their boats.... That stuff is thick, almost 3/16" thick

[Lew Barrett]

a quarter million californian and mexican fishermen can't all be wrong....:D :D

Depends on who they voted for (sorry, couldn't resist). :D

To the topic: this is sort of obvious, so possibly inane or maybe I missed something, but if the boat is to be kept in the Finger Lakes, you don't have any worries. No salt water. Great thing about a wooden boat living in Lake Union but locking through to the Sound. Use the boat out there, run her "up the river" and bingo....dead worms.
Edited to add: Oh...I did miss something; I see the boat will be used for transits to the Bahamas.

[py]

sdowney, I'd be interested to hear how your bottom is going with Sanitred. We now have threads on the stuff for decks, and bottom. Starting to sound like wondergoop!!

[jimmy]

MOST PROPS ARE BRONZE

There are many different types of bronze, but as far as I know, they are all alloys of copper. FYI

[George Ray]

Fewer boat yards that will haul wooden boats.
-plus-
Fewer yards that will haul wooden boats that really know how to haul them.
-plus-
More expensive to haul.
-plus-
Materials cost rising.
-plus-
Fewer places that will let you do your own work.
-plus-
Likely to scrape and bump the bottom when cruising in strange waters.
-plus-
Shipworms common in warm waters.
-tempered by-
rise in copper prices and lack of expertise in application methods
-equals-
Possible case for coppering the bottom of wooden boat


*************************
(a) Creosote bare wood
(b) trowel thin layer roof tar to bed felt
(c) tack on copper sheeting

NOTE:
You should lay copper so that the gap in the 'shingles' is pointed up. While this willl collect rain water in a loose seam when on the hard, if you spend much time falling off waves, a loose seam will not balloon out and start pull off the sheet but will be pressed into place by the water pressure.
(paraphrase: Warwick M. Tompkins Sr., Wanderbird)

[S.V. Airlie]

George Ray.. everything you said is true... Too bad but damn it, you are correct....