A hinge in the mast

[Walcheren]

I was given a leaky Commet, a 16' 6" open sailer plus hardware and sails. She is now fixed with a new centre board case. The problem I have is a 24' mast, 2 1/2" x 2 1/2" of Douglas Fir. This thing is so heavy I can not get it upright, keep it upright and certainly not lift it up to put in the hole in the fore deck and into the new mast step. One solution could be to buy an aluminum mast. But. What about cutting the mast in two about 6" or 8" above the foredeck and installing a steel contraption like a knee brace. Has anybody done such a thing and if so where do I start or do I have to invent the whole thing myself, have it made and then find out it does not work. Strength is the key of course. Any suggestions out there. Happy New Year http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/p438bc152779ff98b026d01a9569d27c4/fa25db30.jpg

[Bob Cleek]

Short answer: NO. It isn't possible to make a hinged mast. If it were, I'm sure somebody'd have done it already. The spar you describe shouldn't be THAT heavy. Try pumping a little iron to build your strength up.

[rbgarr]

Some suggestions:

Try doing a search on the word 'tabernacle' here in the Forum.

Launch the boat and get the help of friends to lower the spar into the step from a bridge or lofty pier at low tide.

You don't say whether you will be rigging/unrigging each time you use the boat, or if you have your own waterfront where you could rig a 'gin pole'.

Is there a yacht club near where you live that has a crane?

[Gary E]

Of course you can hinge it...

"The boat herself was modified to use a hinged maststep. Raising and lowering the mast, while a bit more difficult than with boats designed to be trailerable, is a fairly easy procedure."

read the rest of the article here...
http://www.cruisecortez.com/stellamari.htm

As I remember many boats on canals in Europe have hinged masts, perhaps some of the fellows in that area will chime in.

G

[N. Scheuer]

Do you intend to daysail this Comet? If so, having to insert the mast through a hole in the deck may be a continuing irratation. Full-service mechanical assistance needs to be capable of raising the mast's weight to an appropriate elevation without putting stress on the deck, then capable of lowering the vertical mast through the hole until it rests on the step. Hence, so many rigs wherein the mast is stepped on the deck, often with a compression post between deck and keel.

Equipment capable of raising the weight, then allowing you to tip it vertical and lower it under control is not too difficult to build, but it's more involved than the simple gin poles or bipods employed to raise a deck-stepped mast.

Doug Fir, if a solid section, would make for a comparatively weighty mast. Spruce would be much more suitable. However, even spruce or aluminum might still be a bit difficult to raise vertical just in your hands, then lowered into the hole to the step so that shrouds can be secured.

Moby Nick

[Paul Scheuer]

Don't know Comet. Is that an unstayed mast ? If so, it makes a hinged mast more difficult but not impossible.

For my 25 ft, stayed, aluminum, deck stepped mast, I use a bi-pod, pivoting at the chainplates to keep it under control as it's going up. I've thought about a similar arrangement mounted to the trailer to do the same function. Either idea would work for a mast that drops into a hole.

[Todd Bradshaw]

You might try a different mast-raising technique. On Starboats we had a similar situation, but the mast was well over 30' long. It was still a two-person job, but this method gave the most control:

Lay the mast on the deck, hanging off the stern with the butt resting on a pad, just behind the hole in the deck that it goes down through. We always used a cheap boat cushion for a pad. One person kneels on deck, forward of the hole and holds the butt down on the pad. The other then starts aft and walks the mast to vertical. At that point, the two of you have hold of it high and low, so it's reasonably stable. Then you both lift it slightly, keeping it vertical and lower the butt down through the hole and onto the mast step. It's no picnic, but I can't see where that mast would be so heavy that it wouldn't work and this "two-stage" approach is much more controlled than trying to pivot it up to vertical and drop it in in the hole all at once.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I don't know didly about Comets and I could only find one small photo of a Comet in my books. Given the rather small mast diameter, it did occur to me that it might (like the Star) be a boat which depends greatly on mast bend, rake, etc. as a tuning tool, possibly before setting sail and just as possibly while on various points of sail. If so, messing with the length of the mast and changing it from keel-stepped to deck-stepped could be a horrible mistake since it might corrupt both your ability to tune the boat and your ability to get sails which fit and work properly or as they were designed to work. I'm not talking about minor sail adjustments either. It can really ruin the sailshape, prevent you from being able to power-up or de-power the rig in use, adjust the helm, etc.

So I did some digging in the class association website and I really don't think you want to change the mast-stepping system. Look at the mast bend in this photo:
http://www.cometclass.com/images/comet12a.gif
The boat has no reef lines (also like a Star) which means that mast bend is used as one of the primary tuning tools which not only bring out the best in the rig, but also help keep the boat under control in heavy air. Chopping off the bottom of the mast and deck-stepping it is likely to make your boat both harder to sail and one which has very poor performance compared to others in the class. It also may totally screw-up any resale value.

Here is the sailplan diagram for those who haven't seen one
http://www.cometclass.com/images/comet5a.gif

and here is the class website
http://www.cometclass.com/about.html

[ 12-29-2003, 10:46 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[TomFF]

Buddy Sharpton here on the forum did something similar with a 15' Marsh Cat. Here's what he wrote


Some other modifications I've made.
It really does take about 45 minutes to set up the mast and three turnbuckles and such on this boat. If you were going to leave it in the water for the season, fine,. But in and out, rigging and unrigging everytime, its a bit much. The mast can be thinner and lighter because of those wonderful stays, but its still a lot for a 155 pounder like me lift upstraight and feed down thu the deck hole. I'm afraid in another 20 years it might get away from me. So Ive hinged mine 6"aboove the boom so it will lay back on the boom crutch for trailering. You walk it up, the side stays have never been taken off so the mast can't go too far forward. Latch it in place and then go forward and put a fast pin in to attach the headstay?furling drum to the tack. I've got a Highfield tension adjuster in the bobstay I added that socks it up 2" tighter and off you go without twisting a turnbuckle of worring about cotter pins. All the halyards sheets , and strings are right where you left them last sail, ready to go.
This is alos someone who did something similar on his Marsh Cat. He tells about it in my woodenboat
Boat 673 (http://media18.hypernet.com/mywb/scripts/show.asp?state=detail&boatid=673)

[ 12-30-2003, 12:06 AM: Message edited by: TomFF ]

[Todd Bradshaw]

This is a drastically different rig from that of a Marsh Cat. What works on them is most likely not going to work well on this boat. This is a traditional version of high-performance, two-person racing boat. Cutting the mast off and deck-stepping it is like cutting your race horse's legs off at the knees so that he's easier to climb aboard.... Gee, I wonder why he can't run very well any more???

While it's certainly possible to retrofit simplified, more recreationally user-friendly rigs on hot boats, it's often not very successful and on a boat with a bendy rig, it may require quite a bit of re-designing as well as replacing the sails and possibly the mast, shrouds and other parts of the rig to make it sail reasonably well. If this boat doesn't fit the bill, it might be better to sell it as a Comet and use the money to help buy a boat which better fits your needs.

On the other hand, high-performance, fast, bendy-masted boats of this type can be excellent teaching platforms if you're interested in learning how to get the most out of a sailplan, so option #1 might just be figuring out how to get the mast up as it was designed to be stepped and getting out on the water.

[ 12-30-2003, 02:42 AM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[Dale Genther]

Walchern, I was wondering about the way you spelled "Commet". Is that what you really meant, because the photo you posted of the boats bow doesn't look like the 1962 Comet I have or alnt outher Comet. Also a Comet (If I remember correctly) isn't 16' 6" long. I.E. Do you really have a Comet or something called a Commet? If the above advice, which is based partially upon a Comet, may not be correct. Based upon my experience with my Comet, a hinged mast or a tabernacle would not be advisable as the performance of the boat is affected very much by mast bend and prebend against the mast partners. Also I have no problem stepping the mast myself. You first have to raise it verticle with the base resting on the ground. Then it is relatively easy to lift it straight up and set it into the hole in the deck. Just make sure you keep it absloutly straight up when doing this.

[Bob Cleek]

Come on guys, don't just go off shooting from the hip and confusing the guy. At least READ the question carefully. Tod and Dale have it right. And NO, you can't cut a mast and put a hinge in it. PERIOD. For all the reasons stated and then some. The operative information in the question was that this was a keel stepped mast and he wondered if he could "hinge" it by cutting it six or eight inches above the DECK. This is NOT a boat engineered to carry a tabernacle. A tabernacle rig requires specialized engineering in the deck, hull and keel structure in order to support the stresses imposed by the tabernacle and mast heel. This is not a "hinged" mast as the poster contemplated. Bottom line, as always, and particularly with class boats, it was designed to work only one way. The pre-aluminum sparred boats just had heavy masts you had to wrestle in place (Todd's description is the proper approach to stepping.) The problem is inherent in the design and you just have to live with it. Still and all, a 25' 2.5" square mast (as described), while awkward to handle alone, perhaps, is not something you need a crane to step. When was the last time you worked with 24' 2x6 decking?

[Hwyl]

I looked at the class assoc' (thanks Todd) and i think it is a Comet. There is another way to skin this cat, but it's dependent on everything being set up perfectly. You have to make some arrangement to hold the hull on it's side, then stuff the mast in horizontally (or actually with the head of the mast close to the ground. Then securely attach the shrouds and forestay and then let the whole shooting match come upright (slowly). It's fraught with danger and I'm sure others are going to berate me. I've done it a few times with a GP 14 (no one around, had to step the mast) I still would prefer Todd's method.

[Walcheren]

Thank you all. First: Is this a Comet? ( with one "m"!) I wondered that myself. The lady who gave her to me said it was. Then I looked her up and found the originals as described in a W.B. article. Length 16 feet!. Mine is 16 1/2. So, who knows. Otherwise she looks very much like it including the rigging. Yes I would like to trailer her instead of having her in the saltchuck all the time and either paying for moorage or havng to row out to her anchorage. Not to mention cleaning her bottom! I do not know anything about racing sailboats let alone about masts bending on purpose. I do intend to sell or give her away once I got her rigging all together and having tried her out myself. (I have got my Pousbo boat to go around in.) I still have to look up the tabernacle and decide how much of a racer I am going to let her be. One thing is for sure, alone I can not step that mast and I do not easily have available a second hand.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid95/pe582ff48b350ac44c691737737536535/fa22242d.jpg
I do like the tripod idea on the foredeck. Thanks again for all your thoughts and maybe there are some more out there.

[rbgarr]

Unless I'm mistaken, the one-design racing Comet is a hard chine v-bottom boat, while yours looks like it is round bottomed. Is it lapstrake?

[Paul Scheuer]

I think I understand the need. I rig mine single handed, and have no need for heroics at my age. Before you cut the mast, you might think about a pivot at the gooseneck, perhaps temporary, that would allow the mast to find its home through a slot in the deck. Gates at the step and deck could secure it once it's in position. A gate at the deck could even cover the slot. I use a four-part tackle to the head stay fitting to gently pull the mast up.

[Dave Hadfield]

If you're going to trailer her, as you say, then how about modifying the trailer? It should be possible to figure out some slip-in/clamp-on/pin-together arrangement that provides a boom 6ft above the mast hole, or maybe even higher.

You can then use the boom/beam to pivot the mast into place.

Suggestion: weld a 2ft piece of 4in round pipe onto the tongue so that you can slip another slightly smaller pipe inside as the forward vertical post. Make another post arrangement at the stern of the boat, either coming from the trailer via vertical guide posts on the quarters, or from the ground if need be using a base plate and a post. Something, at any rate, to hold the other end of the boom up, braced so that it doesn't fall sideways easily.

Then you'll have to fine-tune the details with a tackle and a sling, but you use the overhead boom to raise the mast and take much of the weight, so that it is easier to pivot the mast vertical and hold it that way while you use the tackle to lower it ito the hole.

An arrangement like this might make it easier to transport the mast on the highway too.

[Ed Nye]

One of the few times I have something to say. Opal's main mast is round and about 5.5 inches across. Originally it was keel stepped and required a crane to get in and out of the boat. The original owner decided he was going to make a trailer-sailor out of her. Damn fool in my opinion, but a very good machinist. So anyway, he cuts the mast in half about 18 inches above the deck. He then makes a bronze collar for the two "new" ends. They look something like two-pound bronze coffee cans with three ears. Each with a half inch bolts and nuts. The rear two are arranged to act like a hinge and the forward one keeps the whole thing in place until for forestay is in place. The lower end of the mast is permanently installed in the boat. Been that way about twenty years, Opal won't put her rail under and hasn't been knocked down since I've had her. Been out in stuff that was stupid to go out in (three reefs in main, two in mizzen) and she will roundup if over powered. That mast hasn't fallen down yet.
Ed

[Todd Bradshaw]

Looking at the stern-view photo, I'm not sure it is a Comet. The photos of the Comets show a rounded bottom, but dead-flat sides, like a Star has. That round-sectioned frame which you can see part of under the bow deck probably wouldn't be used in such a boat. If you can't see the obvious flat sides when you get back and look at the hull (as you can in this pic) it's something else.
http://www.cometclass.com/images/pigskin2002lg.jpg

This may make the original mast-cutting question a matter of determining whether or not the rig depends upon mast position, mast rake and mast bend for on-the-water tuning. If the slot in the deck is elongated to allow the mast to move or lean fore and aft or if there is under-deck hardware to change the position, rake or bend in the mast, it's a really bad move from a performance standpoint to attempt to change to a deck-stepped stick - whether it's a Comet or not. If the erected mast fits through a small, tight hole in the deck or is gated, etc. to prevent fore and aft movement at the partners, then it makes the possibility of cutting the mast somewhat more valid (but still probably not the best idea you ever came-up with).

Note that the examples which folks keep posting where a mast was cut and successfully converted to deck-stepping, are boats where the mast is erected, guyed-out by the shrouds and stays and basically doesn't move after that from anything but mainsheet or backstay tension while sailing. If this thing is rigged like a Comet, Star or any other boat which uses the ability to bend the mast, mimicing the luff curve to drastically flatten the mainsail, straightening it to increase mainsail draft and raking the mast forward on a run, it's a very different animal.

The question here is not whether the mast can be converted to deck-stepping - sure it can. The real question is whether the sailplan will still work anywhere close to "properly" after doing it and I have very serious doubts that it will.

Is there a class insignia or logo on the mainsail?

[ 12-31-2003, 05:01 PM: Message edited by: Todd Bradshaw ]

[N. Scheuer]

I've seen a Comet, and consider it to be similar in all respects to a Snipe, with which I have some experience.

Walcheron's photos seem to show a boat having more rounded sections forward, as well as a flatter deck.

Moby Nick

[Meerkat]

How about a feature I've seen on some older boats: a slot aft of the mast position that it slips into and then is brought upright (after which, a removable mast partner is inserted to keep it upright)? It would still be keel-stepped, but the slot would make it easier to raise.

Another thought: is that mast solid or hollow? A hollow mast would be lighter...

[ 12-31-2003, 06:04 PM: Message edited by: Meerkat ]

[Walcheren]

Happy New Year. Yes the mast is solid. I am working on the idea of elongating the mast hole forward and creating a slanted slide to put the mast up against from the stern. Then I can lift her halfway, plant a support and then use the foredeck contraption to haul her up to almost upright but before she falls in the hole. Then I can manually help the mast along down unto the mast step. The shrouds or temporary removable shrouds should keep her in line. As soon as the snow is gone I will take the mast and create a "model" on the ground. Just have to drive some stakes into the ground, rig up my haul-up crane and try it out. I will forward the whole thread to the previous owner to see whether she knows more about the origin of this boat.I apreciate all your interest. I have researched the tabernacle threads. Interesting conversation. Too bad there are so few pictures or drawings. The occasional "A" does not work for me. Dirk.

[TomFF]

Again on a cat- but could this work?

http://newimages.yachtworld.com/8/8/2/9/8/882982_6.jpg

[Buddy]

Well, Ive just back from out of town and see I've been mentioned about hinging a mast.
Todd's absolutely right about it if mast bending is needed to properly shape a racing main- my sloop works exactly that way.
Bob, I'm glad to report that one year after the cutting, my MarshCat has been put through the wringer enough to convince me it was all grand success, but then I'm not bending that short spar of a gaff rig for sail shape.
Doug's MarshCat rig is not hinged, but a way to mainage the heel end of the mast as it is singllehanded up into postion. He still has to attach and tune all teh stays each time. I din't with the hinged mast. I just pop in the headstay clevis pin. It's easy to do one man, but sometimes as I am lifting, a slack reefing pennant or quarter lift hangs on something on the way up and it's very nice to ask my wife to clear it away hrather than putting the mast back down, straightening things out and retrying.

If you're just daysailing, I would't abandon the idea. I sure use my boat more because of the short rigging time.

[Walcheren]

A photo or diagram is worth a thousand words. Thank you. Those of us who have scanners need to try to make drawings that do well in the scanner. Then we can post more pictures and diagrams and less words. By the way here is a quote from Howard Chapelle when he writes about tabernacles. " Tabernacles, by which it is possible to lower masts, are strangely missing in American boats. Apparently, if you live above the bridge, you don't have a sail boat, or keep it miles away" And further on he says: " To aid in hoisting the mast the Dutch use an A-frame etc etc." Well guess where I was raised. Just made a model of an A-frame for on the fore deck. Learned a lot and I think that it will work both ways, stepping and unsteping the mast. And this without using a hinge. I'll keep you posted. Dirk.