Foreign entanglements - just a grumble

[coelacanth2]

If I remember correctly, Jefferson warned us against foreign entanglements. It would seem that a great deal of our recent "issues" have stemmed from actively needing to deal with less than savoury countries-particularly re energy. What if we made the concerted effort to at least generate all electricity from sources within the US.


would that be enough toeliminate the need to go adventuring abroad, and compete with other nations for oil? As long as you are beholden to someone, they own you. Would building code additions requiring at least some supplemental solar in all new residential construction be worthwhile? I'm putting solar electric on top of my building, and solar heat on the home, barn and office. I'm hoping the modest difference it makes will help, but a boost in that direction may give us greater freedom.

This probably isn't the most tightly parsed beginning, but it's late and I'm tired-what are you-all doing. I'd like some more ideas.

[GregW]

Re: Foreign entanglements

Sorry ain't going to happen. The USA has too many interest around the world that have to be deffended, a fact of life.
In most cases these interest can be protected by treadies, trade agreements... etc. However there will continue to be cases where those just won't work, and force will be necessary.
That I believe is the short history of why wars are fought.

[uncas]

Coelacanth..
I think it was Washington not Jefferson.. Check his farewell address when he left office.. Specifically mentioned foreign entanglements...
I think, although he may not have acted on it, that Jefferson was very pro French during the 1790's. I'm not sure what he would have done if the XYZ affair had not ended in the manner it did and during Adams Admin.

[Norman Bernstein]

It is hard to argue that the world isn't a vastly different place than when Jefferson warned of 'foreign entanglements', and the 'global village' is a lot closer to reality these days. Therefore, we are increasingly 'entangled', but in very different ways that Jefferson might have suspected. (I often wonder why we sometimes treat the 'founding fathers' as if they were oracles of eternal truth, rather than just men of integrity and character, reacting to a world which was dramatically different, in their time, than it is in ours...)

It's hardly a surprise to anyone that our current dependence on foreign sources of energy would distort the nature of our relationship with other countries. I don't think, however, that energy is really the key issue.... the far more important issue is the disparity of prosperity between the US, and many other countries. This disparity is the root cause of the flight of labor to the third world, and the problem won't be solved until prsoperity catches up in those countries.

There's reason for hope. My wife recently returned from a 10 day trip to China, and as her photos, videos, and testimony demonstrate, China is rapidly pulling itself up by it's bootstraps, and becoming highly westernized. My wife saw only one photo of Mao the entire time, despite touring 3 large cities (Bejing, Xian, and Shanghai), but she saw countless shopping malls and high rise apartment and office buildings. The worlds largest 'communist' nation is only barely describable as such, from the perspective of daily life there (at least in the cities)... eventually, as the standard of living increases and prosperity spreads, two problems will be solved: 1) the natural economic emnities that made China a potential military threat will dissipate, and 2) the labor/wage disparity will narrow, which can only help the US workforce.

Meanwhile, it seems to me that the key is to suppress the 'natural' urge to conduct ourselves as if we believe our own spin about being the world's only remaining superpower, and dial down the bluster, the rhetoric, and the military threat.... and begin to engage the rest of the world as partners rather than adversaries. The cold war did very little to insure America's security... but economic prosperity spreading throughout the third world, especially when that prosperity is equitably shared, is what will make us safer. It does us little good to support despotic regimes and dictatorships which have dramatically inequitable societies... but it would help us a great deal if we use our influence to convince those regimes that it is in their interests to share the wealth equitably within their own societies.

[uncas]

Washintonton's Farewell Address... Article 13

13 While, then, every part of our country thus feels an immediate and particular interest in Union, all the parts combined cannot fail to find in the united mass of means and efforts greater strength, greater resource, proportionably greater security from external danger, a less frequent interruption of their peace by foreign nations; and, what is of inestimable value, they must derive from Union an exemption from those broils and wars between themselves, which so frequently afflict neighbouring countries not tied together by the same governments, which their own rivalships alone would be sufficient to produce, but which opposite foreign alliances, attachments, and intrigues would stimulate and embitter. Hence, likewise, they will avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments, which, under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican Liberty. In this sense it is, that your Union ought to be considered as a main prop of your liberty, and that the love of the one ought to endear to you the preservation of the other.

[Milo Christensen]

It seems that both Washington and Jefferson warned us, Jefferson repeatedly, about foreign entanglements.


"Nothing is so important as that America shall separate herself from the systems of Europe, and establish one of her own. Our circumstances, our pursuits, our interests, are distinct. The principles of our policy should be so also. All entanglements with that quarter of the globe should be avoided if we mean that peace and justice shall be the polar stars of the American societies." --Thomas Jefferson

[uncas]

Milo.. between the two.. Washington and Jefferson.. I have a tendency to feel that Washington was a bit more sincere...
Just looking at their personal methods to undermine others in the cabinet....etc...Washington made a point of not doing so.. Jefferson made a point of doing so.Jefferon was the opposite of Washington..a bit underhanded when it suited him.
Jefferson says what at the time was appropiate.. a real politician. Sometimes what he says, he does not entirely agree with himself. ( Slavery.. beleived that it would be a logical thing to free them.. but then there was the delemma.. he didn't except after he died and then only a few ). Perhaps it was an awareness that during the late 1700's and through his term as President, Jefferson realized that America was in no shape or condition to fight another war... Makes sense as proven in 1814.

Just me.. after reading all of the biographies...
ps.. This has always been a question for me.. something to debate..
Louisianna Purchase.. good for us.. hence the US populous liked it but it also put money in the war Napoleon was fighting with England.. Sort of behind the scenes French support...without really admitting it...

[Mrleft8]

Why did I think this would be a thread about large furry German women in black bikinis?......

[WillW]

"What if we made the concerted effort to at least generate all electricity from sources within the US."

US and Canadian electricity utilities are members of the North-American Electricity Reliability Council (NERC), which sets out mandatory rules for operations and reliability. The US is mostly self-sufficient in electricity - cross-border transactions are designed to share capacity and increase reliability, rather than displace installed capacity. In any case, I'm not sure how buying electricity from, say, Quebec would qualify as a foreign entanglement.

[Dan McCosh]

"What if we made the concerted effort to at least generate all electricity from sources within the US."

US and Canadian electricity utilities are members of the North-American Electricity Reliability Council (NERC), which sets out mandatory rules for operations and reliability. The US is mostly self-sufficient in electricity - cross-border transactions are designed to share capacity and increase reliability, rather than displace installed capacity. In any case, I'm not sure how buying electricity from, say, Quebec would qualify as a foreign entanglement.


What about sharing Niagara Falls?

[WillW]

Dan: Are you saying that Canada gets more than its far share? Apparently, there's an equal amount of generation on each side of the river.

Generating Station Name
Number of Generators Output Capacity

USA

Robert Moses GS 13 Generators 2,275,000 Kilowatts
Lewiston Pump GS - Reservoir 12 Reversible pump-generators 300,000 Kilowatts

Total Power Generation Capacity
2,575,000 Kilowatts


CANADA


Sir Adam Beck #1 GS 10 Generators 470,000 Kilowatts

Sir Adam Beck #2 GS 16 Generators 1,290,000 Kilowatts

Sir Adam Beck Pump GS - Reservoir 6 Reversible Pump Generators 120,000 Kilowatts

DeCew #1 GS - St. Catharines 5 Generators 23,000 Kilowatts

DeCew #2 GS - St. Catharines 2 Generators 142,000 Kilowatts


Total Power Generation Capacity
2,045,000 Kilowatts

[Bruce Hooke]

It would seem that a great deal of our recent "issues" have stemmed from actively needing to deal with less than savoury countries-particularly re energy. What if we made the concerted effort to at least generate all electricity from sources within the US.
Photovoltiacs are unfortunately pretty expensive and complicated to implement on a house-size scale, and the economics of them would be at their worst if you went with just a couple of panels. Also, as others have already noted, electricity is probably the place where we are doing best in terms of energy self-sufficiency (aside from the tight interconnection with Canada, which I do not see as an issue). I am not just talking about where the electricity is generated, I am also talking about the energy sources used to produce the elctricity.

One website I found lists U.S. electricity sources as:

US Electricity Production By Source
Coal.......53%
Gas.......16%
Nuclear..21%
Hydro......7%
Oil..........2%
Other......1%
Total..100.0%

If you want to reduce our consumption of foreign oil, the first target should probably be transportation. That is what a lot of our oil consumption goes towards. Another thing to look at would be home heating and finding ways to make houses more efficient to heat.

It should be noted that while coal is domesticly "produced," it is not the most desirable power source for a variety of reasons, so advocating for more efficiency in our use of electricity would be a very good thing.

[Osborne Russell]

Hence, likewise, they will avoid the necessity of those overgrown military establishments, which, under any form of government, are inauspicious to liberty, and which are to be regarded as particularly hostile to Republican Liberty.

Ha ha.