Bolger

[lagspiller]

Excuse me for swearing in church, but what is this fascination with Bolger? The designs are probably effective in that they are easier to build than most boats, and they float. Materials and methods make them cheap. I guess. But does that rate all the exposure this one designer gets on the forum?

I can see there is a place for Walmart and Five & Dime, too. But there is more to life than bugdet stores. There must be loads of other, exciting newer designers that deserve some recognition.

When boat designs are discussed here, Phil and Nat get about 80% of the billing. How about bringing some of the others out a little more often?

[garyspear]

you got something against making sailing accessable to those of more modest means? what is the point of the rant?

[lagspiller]

You got it turned around. I'm asking why there is so little of anything else.
Walmart is good - for what it is.

[John Bell]

Not all, or even most of Bolger's designs are boxes. Like the Atkins and LFH, he's written a lot about his designs and the thinking that went into them. The exposition of ideas leads to a lot of discussion, which in turn breeds even more discussion. The fact that Bolger isn't afraid to dry something different adds even more fuel to the fire. At least he isn't one of those guys who draws the same thing over and over, just different sizes.

He has quite a few boats that are simply stunning, Moccassin, for example. You should also look up the lapstrake Chebacco, Blackbird, TarTar, and Hope, just to name a few really lovely little boats from Bolger's board.

He's not God, he's simply more interesting and accessible than most designers. That's why the popularity.

Disclaimer: I've built one Bolger boat and have plans for a couple of others.

[openboater]

Form Follow's Function

what you need a boat to do is the function.

what it looks like is the form.

so you decide what a boat needs to do FIRST and THEN design one that fills that niche.

when you have 700 designs, there is a lot to talk about.

too many designers draw a pretty boat and tell the owner suck it up. their motto is 'function follows form'. lousy milage, lousy seakeeping, blah,blahblah.

[lagspiller]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?

Why don't we have the means to produce and cherish that kind of boat any longer. Why does everything have to be fast food and throw-away.

Before we all got so rich that we can't afford anything, in days of old when times were really hard, great works were created and appreciated. Today the in trend is to place utilitarianism on the alter we are told to bow before. If boats could be made of cardboard, that would be praised. Once we made cathredrals. Now we make hamburgers.

There should also be room for quality - both in workmanship and materials.

I'm happy that Instant boats and Square boats and what-ever incarnation of other throw-away exists. But I dearly wish that everything didn't have to be plywood.

Once, lest-boats (sorry, I don't know the correct term.... wooden boats made over a form) like the Knarr were the inexpensive answer to quality boats. Square Meters were designed as the keel boat for everyman. I am sure the list could be added to almost indefinately by people on this forum.

What do we have today? What will we hand down to our great grand children? Is there really nothing going on with in a normal persons grasp other than plastic and plywood???

This is not meant as a rant against Bolger - but where are the other designers? Why isn't WB forum championing THEIR cause?

[Hwyl]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?


I think this one might be, she's concrete and a movie star.

http://www.tallshiprose.org/photos/catalogue/ship/082696-09.jpg

[Lewisboats]

I',m sure the designers are there...they just aren't being asked to design what you are looking to see. The materials are so rare nowadays, and so expensive, and so unlikely to be renewed that other materials are being explored...also changing the design process. If you want to see one of the classics being built today then shuffle over to a noted Architect and Plop down the 6 figures to get the ball rolling... Please post pictures... I would love to follow the progress while I build what I can afford (out of plywood). Oh...and the old classics you see still floating have probably only 20-40% of the original material still in them.

Steve

[John Bell]

lagspiller, they are not ALL boxes....

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/06/projects/hope/2004-05-25-002.jpg
Hope

http://www.baysidewoodenboats.com.au/gallery_photos/images/27.jpg
Harbinger

http://mistermoon.home.mindspring.com/Moccasin_2.jpg
Moccasin

http://www.boat-links.com/PT/PT2001/Jerome-1.jpg
Chebacco

http://www.shallowwatersailor.us/04-06/bolger.jpg
Schooner

[Lewisboats]

"In days of old when things were really hard..." That's when the boats that you see were built to work and earn their living and make money for their owners (barring the yachts and racers of the day). The comparison today is the super tanker and the container ship...but also the cruise ship. Today...as in yesteryear these ships have a useful life then they are expected to be scrapped, melted and made into something else. Should someone fall in love with one and endevor to rebuild/refresh/renew it at the end of it's moneymaking life then I would expect to see it viewed as classic in a hundred years or so.

Steve

[TomF]

Y'know? We have quite a Welsford following on the board too. And Iain Oughtred - both noted for the grace of their designs.

I agree there are lots more we could likely be championing. Never understood, for instance, why Tom MacNaughton's stuff - much of it designed for strip building - doesn't get much play here. Nigel Irons designs things to drool over, but we don't drool over them half enough. Ted Brewer too, though I like Irons' stuff better by a stretch.

But Bolger? Well, he's not only got a big body of work, but he's written about it. So it's not just lines and boats, but ideas about lines and boats.

t.

[lagspiller]

Not quite. (edit to add - directed at Lewisboats' thoughts on merchant boats) There were work boats and there were racing boats. Both types were built to last. There were probably also boxes with tarred ends paddled with sticks, but they were not built to last. And didn't.

While we are on the subject of economy...
Old boats like my sq.meter were specifically built as the 'aquirable racing boat' within a normal man's means. They were the inexpensive answer to the typical racing boat of similar size in their day. Light, strong and long lived.
From what I read, they are now not exactly cheap. And prices are rising.
In other words, not a bad investment at all. Quality materials and workmanship cost more than a tarred box, but it seems to have paid off in the long run.

I also know from experience that quality used fiberglass boats actually increase in value over some years - I have several friends that have bought larger, new boats with the PROFITS gained by buying, using and selling fiberglass boats at market price. My sq.meter has probably close to doubled in worth since I bought it 15 years ago. It is 81 years old.

I can also show you smaller workboats made in far simpler pines and furs that are older. And increasing in value for every passing year.

It will be interesting to see if a plywood boat can achieve the same - both in age and in increased value.
THAT is what I call economy.

(edit to add - yes, those are nice Bolger boats. But still, I wish there was more space devoted to the REST of the designers. TomF... why not start a WBF fan club for some of THOSE guys. Tell us more. I'm tired of Bolger, Bolger, Bolger.)

[Paul Pless]

It will be interesting to see if a plywood boat can achieve the same - both in age and in increased value.

Here's one that's well on her way: Her name is Stormvogel, she was built of Bruynzeel mahogany plywood for the founder and owner of Bruynzeel. You may know her better as the boat from the movie Dead Calm.

http://www.vandestadt-usa.com/images/stormvogel.jpg

[John Bell]

But still, I wish there was more space devoted to the REST of the designers. TomF... why not start a WBF fan club for some of THOSE guys. Tell us more. I'm tired of Bolger, Bolger, Bolger.


Where are you seeing that on WBF? There are a few Bolger-centric groups around, but here isn't that place.

In addition to Tom's list, Paul Gartside gets a lot positive discussion here.

[Thorne]

Ditto, the basis of the rant passes right over my head -- these forums have probably 5x the posts on Gartside, Oughtred, Welsford, and other designers both living and dead.

Bolger gets a lot more press in the Yahoo groups and Internet, largely because of the accessibility of the designs and materials, plus the fact that he has written a lot about his designs and ideas -- "Boats with an open mind" for example.

[lagspiller]

Where?

Bolger 266
Herreshoff 392
Oughtred 248
Welsford 79
MacNaughton 19
Brewer 48
Irons 118

From a quick WBFsearch.
Bolger pops up most often in the title of a topic.
Bolger turns up most often in Designs / Plans
Herreshoff is most often mentioned in 'repairs'.
Oughtred is usually mentioned somewhere in a discussion. I was surprised at how often he is mentioned. Very positive.
And Irons is probably due to the word iron.

I don't think I am imagining things.

[Paul Pless]

lagspiller, I think your probably right, Bolger is mentioned the most on this forum, but he's also probably the designer, that's currently alive and still practicing naval architecture, with the most prolific portfolio of designs appropriate for the home builder, and he has written widely about his designs.

Also didn't he receive some of his formal and informal education from both Chappelle and LFH???

[willmarsh3]

I found Phil Bolger's book "Boats with an Open Mind" one of the most fascinating books on boat construction out there simply for the considerable breadth of designs presented. I have considered building his St. Valerie. She seems to have good room down below as well as on deck for a boat of her size.

http://www.devlinboat.com/usedbolger.jpg

[Russ Manheimer]

Lagspiller,

Here's my defense of Bolger:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid217/pcf13ef64a1a20a541a4854279d3678c0/ec456e69.jpg
She's a nicely executed Spartina.

Russ

Ps: Thanks ByronB for your terrific boat

[JimD]

Perhaps there has been a little spike in interest in Bolger around here lately but not that much of one. Seems to me entire years have gone by where he barely gets a mention and then its usually a rerisive comment about his box boats. Personally I like Bolger. I wish I'd been around in the very early days when he even posted to the forum. You go, Phil!

[lagspiller]

Mr.Pless, you are probably right on all counts.

I still wish there was more room for more wooden boat designers of the older design principle. The kind that says it may cost a bit more now, but in the long run...

Someone said earlier something about form and function. His point was that Bolger designs for function and form follows after. I can see that. But is that unusual??? No. Not in the least.

Older designs, tried and true concepts, have been honed over many, many years. They represent a long line of design and seamanship. They too have taken their form from function. They are NOT less functional despite being beautiful. Bolger too has made some beautiful, classic designs. So it is possible. Which only proves that the focus on cheap and dirty isn't really necessary.

Quality materials are not difficult to obtain. It does not have to involve environmentally deplorable harvest. It should not be embarassing to go for more investment in time and effort - to create something lasting and timeless.

I wish both Wooden Boat and the forum gave even more space and attention to the many designs and designers. It is limiting when any single designer gets too much attention. I am sure they exist - and I would like to read about them. I would also like to give their designs more PR - that is the only way they will be built... if we talk about them. Get excited about new wooden boats in something other than plywood.

Let's face it. Plywood is for the congregation. If real wooden designs are going to reach a greater public, they are going to have to get noticed first.

But... it is late here. You will have to carry on without me this evening - if there is anything left to be said and any dare say it.

[openboater]

Lagspiller, please don't consider square as bad. As I recall, the homely little WWII Jeep is on the list of the 10 most beautiful designs of anything, not just auto's but anything. The jeep sure could be described as square and slab sided. And the Jeep is the only model that still resembles it roots after 60 years.

As to 'plywood is for the congregation' , if memory serve me right, Frank Loyd Wright pioneered Plywood furniture. When I visited his 'falling water' house, the plywood furniture designs he created were beautiful.

[John Meachen]

I greatly enjoy reading Phil Bolger's articles and his rational explanations for the occasionally challenging appearance of the resulting boats.I would like to read more of the words of William Garden as his books on boat design have shown some less unusual boats and a gift for good writing.He also has such a wealth of experience that his opinions can be taken as gospel.I would be delighted if he could be persuaded to write a third volume of the series "yacht designs" and I would recommend the earlier books of the series to anybody with an interest in boat design.

[rbgarr]

I think plenty of designers have been mentioned and discussed here on the WBF, i.e., William Garden, Philip Rhodes, Sam Crocker, Laurent Giles, Jay Benford, Olin Stephens, Joel White, Harry Bryan and so on. Fewer people aspire (practically) to build or own boats by those designers, and not many of them have written as much about boats as Bolger, so there's less discussion of their boats in total. I don't think that mere quantity of ink equates to importance or being valued for skills and creative talent.

[Russ Manheimer]

Lagspiller,

I wish I knew of a more traditional designer still working; especially Scandinavian. Aage Nielsen, Utzon and the like are yacht designers. The boats you wish to see (and which I love), have more of a work boat heritage. Howard Chappelle did this for American boats. I'd love to find someone who has designs and construction methods similar to Sjogin. (http://www.sjogin.com/?page_id=17)

http://static.flickr.com/24/47186886_33e6c44b1e.jpg

I'm still searching for her designer. If you know of anyone, past or present that may serve, please let me know.

Good thread. One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized. Anyone remember which book? I'm still waiting for my tax credit.

Best,

Russ

[Paul Pless]

Another observation: just about every open question seeking suggestions regarding 'instant type' plyboats will have its share of postings suggesting a mor traditional approach or design, and vice versa.

[donald branscom]

Excuse me for swearing in church, but what is this fascination with Bolger? The designs are probably effective in that they are easier to build than most boats, and they float. Materials and....



It's a free country sir.

[Boatmik]

Let me ask the question this way...
Will any Bolger boats still be around in 100 years?

This is not meant as a rant against Bolger - but where are the other designers? Why isn't WB forum championing THEIR cause?

Howdy, I think your second sentence answers the first.

WB forum is not a single THING capable of making choices as to what it will champion.

It simply reflects what the individuals are interested in or like.

Lots of people like, love, hate his boats. Perhaps even more have actually built one or know someone who has.

They are always talking points - like you don't particularly like them, but here you are.

So will Bolgers be sold in 2106? Of course - they engage people's enthusiasm very effectively.

MIK

[Paul Pless]

Lagspiller, LOL!!! this thread is a pretty good nonpolitical troll.:D
Almost as good as the one John B did about the schooner Waione a few years back.

[Stu Fyfe]

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid211/p499bdcf5f1372993034aad06cf7b010b/ed81ab71.jpg

Not sure if Redwing will be around in 100 years, but I'm sure the design will last a long time in Different Boats.

[Brian Palmer]

I built a Bolger Elegant Punt in 1976 when I was 14 and sold it a few years later. As far as I know, it is still around, 30 years later.

-- Brian

[Pierre LaRochelle]

To understand the importance of square boats is to understand the imperishable quiet at the heart of form.

Ahem! PL

[Russ Manheimer]

Pierre,

I Googled your quote and think its apt. Some of Bolger's efforts such as his Tortoise aim to get at the essence of what is needed for a boat. Functional, quirky and just useful enough to be appreciated. The designer commented something to the effect that the Tortoise was just ugly enough to avoid getting stolen. True enough on both counts.

Russ

[rbgarr]

One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized. Anyone remember which book?

IIRC, he wrote that in 'Small Boats'.

[Russ Manheimer]

Thanks Dave. That notion has always made me smile.

Russ

[Lucky Luke]

One final Bolger note. In one of his early books he posited that there ought to be a tax credit for owning, and especially using a lovely boat; the rational that such a craft benefited the general local scene and that such a benefit should be recognized.
Russ
...and, in the other hand, what about an extra tax for such beauties:http://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/l_micro.jpghttp://www2.friend.ly.net/~dadadata/boat/cheb_motor.jpg
:rolleyes: :eek: :p

[Pierre LaRochelle]

I suppose we all know a women so lovely in her bones...but who sighs from far away?

....................oops too much Roethke to be of use..sorry!

PL

[BrianY]

One thing to consider regarding the number of Bolger references: When someone writes in to the forum and says "I'm a newbie boat builder looking to build a boat for ...." the answers almost inevitably include a reference to a Bolger boat. Why? Because he has intentionally designed many boats to be built by novice boat builders with very little woodworking skills, money and time. Most of these people are not concerned with tradition, longevity of the boat beyond a few years (10 - 20 ? ) or in creating a work of art. They want to be out on the water as quickly as possible. Now, I greatly admire Welsford and Oughtred and many other designers living today, but I don't think that they design with the same kind of builder in mind (not that their designs can't be built by first timers).

Analogy: First time car buyer with a limited buget looking for a car to get him to and from work. I don't think anyone would suggest a Mercedes or a BMW....

As for the "affordable" classics you write of - well, maybe you can afford to purchase and maintain one but there are a lot of folks that can't. Nor do they want to.

To many, boats are primarily utilitarian objects to be used for recreaction. Low maintenance, ease of construction, transport and operation take higher priority over aesthetics or ultimate longevity. Many of Bolger's boats fit these criteria very well. Again, I don't think that there are many other designers out there (Jim Michalak is one) specifically targeting this kind of market.

To put it simply, it's not that everyone is in love with Bolger's designs and they choose to ignore everyone else. It's that his designs fit the requirements of many of the people posting on this forum - and many first or second time builders all around the world. In that sense, he should be admired for fitting his intended market so perfectly.

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Absolultely!
If you enjoy floating on water, is it the vessel or the floating that matters?

PL.......a Bolgerite since 1979

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Just a late thought and response to an earlier posting on this matter.
One should be leary of going to sea on a hundred year old vessel!

PL

[Boatmik]

...and, in the other hand, what about an extra tax for such beauties:http://www2.friend.ly.net/%7Edadadata/boat/l_micro.jpg
:rolleyes: :eek: :p

I've taken th other one out because I didn't like it either - but the Micro is an epitome of a modest little crusing boat.

I love the way it looks and wish I had enough wisdom to design it at the time!!!

In a hundred years people will still know what a Micro is.

Michael

[lagspiller]

Leary of going to sea on a hundred year of vessel... maybe.
Leary of going to sea on a fifteen year old plywood vessel. Probably.
There will of course be exceptions to the rule - but the time scale is probably not far off standard deviation.

Actually, the discussion went rather well. , Although some took is as "Bolger-hater" trys to stir up trouble, it was never meant to be a Bolger-bash. I still think there must be other designers who deserve more attention - and that attention would ultimately result in a greater diversity of designs to choose between.

Yes, home builders and new boaters need something more attainable than "BMW & Mercedes". But the motoring world offers much more between that class and Lada (which has long been pure function before form - with the occasional exception). The biggest activity is the 'middle class' designs in cars. It would be nice to see the same diversity and activity in middle class boat design.

What was it Henry Ford said? Every color you want - as long as it is black.

[Foster Price]

Hmm - nice to bring Henry into it at this stage, because if I recall, Henrys model T is alledgedly more economical than any current American made car- and thats right at the heart of ALL Boger designs - economy, honesty of purpose and functionality (unless its one of his "failures" but he is careful to acknowlege those, much unlike auto makers !!)

Cheers - Foster

[TomF]

I'll agree with an observation made earlier - a lot of Bolger boats were designed to be simple enough for amateurs to build and not be overwhelmed. When the project also resulted in a carefully thought out, functional boat ... a convert was born.

I love traditional boats more, as you seem to Lagspiller. My night time drooling for small craft comes for Chapelle's drawings of workboats, and John Gardner's marvelous books. On a forum like this, devoted largely to folks with a hope of home building, some of the more esoteric forms or simply some of the really big boats just won't be discussed too much. I know I can't compete with Covey Island Boatworks to build Nigel Irons designs ... though I salivate at the very idea. Nor could I ever hope to afford one.

This place is largely about the art of the possible. And for many of us, what's possible is what's been designed to be possible and affordable.

[Russ Manheimer]

Luck Luke,

Probably a good idea to tax ugly boats but who gets to judge them?

Russ

[Keith Wilson]

Luke, I'm pretty sure the Long Micro in the picture is Julia May. I sailed on her on Lake Waconia years ago, on a day when it was blowing hard enough to pull out one of the chainplates on my Town Class. (If I hadn't come about in time I'd have lost the mast). Under those extremely lively conditions the Micro was very pleasant to sail: dry, comfortable, and reasonably fast, and she actually looks pretty good on the water. The other one is definitely ugly, but nothing near as bad as your average Bayliner

A couple of points about Bolger Boxes:
- Most of his designs aren't like that at all; he's quite capable of turning out a classically beautiful boat if he wants.
- Not even all his simple "instant boat" designs are boxes; look here:
http://www.instantboats.com/gypsy.htm
- Almost all of the boxes work very well indeed for their intended purpose. A few haven't: Otter II, for example. Unlike any other designer I know of. Bolger is more than willing to discuss his mistakes and the reasons for them in detail.
- They are intended as exercises in simplification and pure function, with no concessions to tradition and few to aesthetics. If you don't want that, build another boat.
- Occasionally, precisely because he's not afraid to try new ideas, he'll hit on something absolutely original. The Birdwatcher-style cabin is truly brilliant.
- I don't want to get into the old traditional vs. modern construction argument,but the contention that plywood boats only last 15 years is utter nonsense. I sailed for five years on San Francisco Bay out of Berkeley in a 35-year-old plywood boat that was as sound as the day she was built. With reasonable care she could last a century easily. Yes, there are crappy plywood boats, shoddily built out of bad materials. There are (well, mostly were) crappy traditionally-built boats as well; most of them are long gone.
Henry's model T is allegedly more economical than any current American made car . . It's not. It gets its low fuel consumption through very low power and speed. A current Ford Focus beats it resoundingly on fuel economy, not to mention performance, handling, comfort, safety, reliability, and emissions. We've learned a few things in the last 80 years.

Now THIS is ugly:

http://www.severnboat.com/boats/bayliner/245sunbridge.gif

[Sam F]

Luck Luke,

Probably a good idea to tax ugly boats but who gets to judge them?

Russ

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - and I've had some pretty ugly equipment (A truck for instance) that I grew to think of a quite attractive 'cause handsome is as handsome does.

One thing that's a bit urksome - not that I've quite figured out why...
Is that if you build something with your own hands and pay taxes on every bit of material that goes into it and when you're done, you get to pay a personal property tax on it forever.

[Uncle Duke]

lagspiller - out of curiousity, what is your definition of 'plywood'? Does that include the Luders 'hot-molded' boats? The slightly more modern 'cold-molded' boats? Or only sheet plywood?

[lagspiller]

Hmmm
http://www.severnboat.com/boats/bayliner/245sunbridge.gif http://www.devlinboat.com/usedbolger.jpg

[TomF]

Nigel Irens ... the "Westernman" he designed for Tom Cunliffe based on pilot cutters... http://www.tomcunliffe.com/images/Westernman_mugshot.jpg

And here's a shot of the "Maggie B," a "fusion schooner" he designed for the owner of Covey Island Boatworks. MMD's familiar with this boat, IIRC. Droooooool.

http://www.coveyisland.com/magb537.jpg

[lagspiller]

lagspiller - out of curiousity, what is your definition of 'plywood'? Does that include the Luders 'hot-molded' boats? The slightly more modern 'cold-molded' boats? Or only sheet plywood?
Good question. But I think you already understand the answer.

I've seen plenty of examples of beautiful cold molded boats. Good performance. Hot boats.
Maybe that is where the 'affordable but not Lada' wooden boats are being made?

Let me say this one more time, to those looking for an inflamatory comment or some opening to dive in and make their arrest.... my point has never been anti-Bolger. It has been pro-diversity. I was fully prepared to be thouroughly flamed for even raising the question of equal time for other designers. Generally, the discussion has gone pretty well. Yes, I admit I have fallen for temptation in some posts.

Chancing a slightly more analytic view....
I do think Bolger craft get more than their share of notice. I read the topics, but don't get much excited - one way or the other. It is also interesting to note that Bolger is a bit of a regional phenomenon. Intense interest in some geographically consentrated areas - in other places, nothing. Kind of makes you wonder. Is Bolgerism an isolated ethno-cultural interest, are other places uaware of Bolger (I think not), is everywhere outside of Bolgeria rigidly locked in traditionalism, is it a fad? Are the designs specially adapted to certain sea conditions or areas? Or do seafaring people other places not understand what is truely functional - in their home waters? Who is on the bandwagon and how did so many from the same area happen to board the same wagon?

In other words - how are our design alliances formed and why is it so important to defend 'our' designer?

What about something new? Why not have a designer of the month topic featuring some of the rest of the international tribe of small boat designers. It would be a challenge to see what could be dug up and presented. Might be interesting reading.

[Uncle Duke]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Duke
lagspiller - out of curiousity, what is your definition of 'plywood'? Does that include the Luders 'hot-molded' boats? The slightly more modern 'cold-molded' boats? Or only sheet plywood?

Good question. But I think you already understand the answer.
Actually I did not already understand the answer - I was asking because of your comments/questions earlier in the thread having to do with "what would last 100 years", and the general sense that part of your thesis here (not your main question, but...) was "why don't they make them like they used to".
Can I assume that your concern is with all sheet plywood boat designs? Or just with the number of mentions of 'Bolger' on the forum?

[lagspiller]

Am I under plywood arrest?

[Keith Wilson]

Why not have a designer of the month topic featuring some of the rest of the international tribe of small boat designers. It would be a challenge to see what could be dug up and presented. Might be interesting reading.Excellent idea!

[BrianY]

Lagspiller -

Perhaps another way to approach the issue is for you to suggest a few designs or designers that meet the following criteria:

I'm looking for a row or sail boat that is:
- easy and quick to build for someone with no previous boat building experience and a little bit of general wood working skill
- requires a minimum of tools and no large woodworking machinery to build
- easy to transport - either cartop or light trailer
- inexpensive and uses readily available materials that most people can find in a local lumberyard
- can carry me and my wife or me and a couple of kids.
- low maintenance
- Plans are readily available and relatively inexpensive

I would be very interested in a list of designers producing plans for boats that meet these criteria - other than Phil Bolger, of course.

I'll start:

Jim Michalak

...and?

[TomF]

Some of the Selway Fisher stuff fits that bill, and some of Welsford's.

If we take out the cartop bit, likely a lot of older plans over at DN Goodchild's site ...

[Uncle Duke]

Others?
Steve Redmond - Elver

[Brian Palmer]

... and the folks at Chesapeake Light Craft. Some nice small sailing and rowing boats coming out of there in kits and plans.

-- Brian

[Tom Lathrop]

Lagspiller, (by the way, what is a lagspiller?)

I am inclined to agree with your general premise. Most of Bolger's box designs leave me a little cold and I find some some ugly in both appearance and function. On the other hand some of his work shows a rare ability to think in ways most others can't. I think it best to ignore what you don't like and let his followers carry on. Ranting is useless and just angries up the blood, as a famous baseball picher used to say.

In a period of one week I saw up close a Micro, a Bobcat and an AS29. I found the Micro at least quaint, the Bobcat very nice and a pleasure to sail while the AS29 was an affront to my sensibilities of what a sailboat should be. The thread on the Diablo is another case in point. It can be fun but can also be downright dangerous to the very builder it appears to be directed toward. Very skitish and able to eject an unsuspecting passenger with ease. Nevermind, there are many devotees that will wish to nail me, and you, to a stake for such impure thoughts.

In the end, I think Bolger is a great asset to the design community. You will change no one's opinion. I suggest you offer the work of someone you admire as a balance to what you detect as skewed coverage of Bolger's work.

Note: No trees were killed in the sending of this message, but a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

[Brian Kelly]

I can certainly understand the question of why Bolger is so commonly referenced. I have become a greater fan of Bolger as I read more of his books. Especially Boats With an Open Mind and his book on Small Boats (1973, out of print, but available).

I used to think his designs were not attractive. But then I realized that his boats are very much form following function. Then he tries to also make them beautiful (see pics of his Gloucester Gull).

So why not Herreshoff or Oughtred? I love their designs. But I can't fathom building or trailering an H12. In Sensible Cruising Designs, Herreshoff speaks mostly of larger boats.

I haven't seen any books by Oughtred, only plans. All of the lapstrake variety. Beautiful.

With Bolger, he not only provides plans, but why he did what he did for different designs. Accessible to the common man, not only is size, complexity, but also by educating the builder to be. His whitehalls are beautiful. With other designs, he simply was not a slave to traditional thought. Nor did he sacrifice function for pure looks. And he shared his thoughts openly.

For many designs, he starts with the requirements, then the type follows. Needed to beach, so the sharpie hull........ Upwind performance was not a requirement, so the keel was not so deep to aid rowing.......

I believe this is why his designs stand out. And why even though Oughtred's designs are absolutely gorgous (I have a couple of his plans), other than construction they are just like the traditional boats that inspired them. What does one say about an Acorn dingy that isn't true of all small whitehall shaped dingies?

[Tom Hunter]

As mentioned Bolger writes a lot about his boats so if your trying to learn about boats you will often read about his designs.

He has been around a while, so there are hundreds (over a thousand?) designs.

He covers the gamut in price, size, function. I discussion of (existing) sailing frigates can mention HMS Rose, a discussion of first time rowboats can mention his work as well.

Also Bolger likes wood, and a lot of designers work in wood and...

Personally I prefer Hereschoff, who gets plenty of mention here, and I agree that Tom McNaughton does not get enough press. But many of McNaughton's designs are for materials other than wood.

[garyspear]

lagspiller,

In my previous post I was just trying to establish the point of your rant. No one is making anyone talk about any boat or designer in praticular. people are free to post about what ever is on their mind. I assure you that there is no conspiracy to speak only or even mostly of bolger design. bolger designs are afordable and well within reach of most people, hence the widespread discusion.

I do not wish to sound offensive as I think your point of veriety is good. I just fail to see how it holds any weight. if you wish to talk about other designs then post on them specifically and don't drop a bomb like the one you have in this post.

Or maybe it was your intention to stir the "puddin".

[lagspiller]

Sorry, but I am not the guy to offer up a lot of suggestions. If you read what I actually have asked for - designer suggestions is exactly what I myself asked for. I am somewhat familiar with a few older designers. I'd like to read about newer ones - designing different types of boats than Bolger. All I have said is that I can hardly believe that any single designer is the Alpha and Omega of modern boat design. Not much of a rant, actually. I could do much better if I applied myself.

The following is a bit of a rant, since some seem interested:
Personally, I believe that if you are into sailing, then sailing performance should be one of the top qualities. If you are looking for something to carry your lunch or is easy to put in the back of your car, then that is what you will end up with.

I can appreciate the guys looking for a nice garage project. Looking for something for the top of their expensive SUV. Looking for a first build. Looking for a floating camper for a family of 6. Something cheap. And so on and so on. Usually I keep my mouth shut when they tell me I am being arrogant when I describe MY type of boat. They are the regular joes - with their two car garages, riding lawnmowers and what have you knee deep around them.

When I was 16, I was very happy with the canvas covered canoe I made ... all by myself. It even gave me the pleasure of having nice lines. I got plenty of enjoyment sitting in the garage looking at it.

But after that... where do we go? Where is the next level? Which modern designers produce good sailing boats, in wood or materials that wood lovers can accept as reasonable facimilies there of... (yes, even plywood - cause I don't have a hangup about high quality ply-work). THAT is what I want to read more about.

My list would accept sacrifices on the interior room, folding and storage capability, easy - peasy building, special do-dads for collapsible mast or coffee cup holders. I would happily continue driving my 12 year old Mazda sedan a number of years longer and suffer some membership dues or a less easily transported and stored boat... if it gave me something that sailed fast and clean, had a bunk for my head, some room for a crew.

That is what I have asked for. I do not care a whit for most of the 'Bolger design prerequisits. Bless the people he makes his boats for... they have entered caanan. I am happy for them.

But I reject the idea that my boating requirements are any less laudable. I want a boat that sails well, and will sacrifice the Swiss-army knife approach. I don't need the everything + the kitchen sink. Give me a honed down, straight shooting, real sailboat. One that gives me pleasure to look at and touch. One of simplicity (to keep it hungry and reasonable) but high quality. Lean - no trivial do-dads - luxury not necessary.

I haven't said in a single word that it should be 'traditional'.
But hard chines and flat bottom because that is cheaper or easier to drag through the woods isn't part of the description. The boat might be designed that way - but only if it ADDED to performance in the element it was designed to navigate... the sea.

If it is going to row - then THAT is the prime quality. Not a million other things. How the boat performs on the water is the only matter of importantance. The rest is debatable.
Now - THAT was my rant.


Tom... clever of you to realize lagspiller isn't a name. "Team player" - believe it or not. :)

(Yeah, I was bit ironic when I started using that nick)

[TomF]

To be honest, Lagspiller, I think you'd find Bolger agrees with most of your points. If you read his prose, you'll see that invariably he's set out to accomplish performance goals, rather than making the equivalent of floating travel trailers. It's just that he's almost always not included traditional aesthetics (or maybe any aesthetics) as one of the design goals.

Don't confuse his stuff with garbagy designs intended as floating compromises. If anything, it's his lack of willingness to compromise once his goals have been stated that make some of his designs unattractive.

[lagspiller]

I can see that.
Some of his designs are sweet.


But still, this wasn't really meant to be about Bolger.

[Uncle Duke]

...this wasn't really meant to be about Bolger. http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/images/buttons/quote.gif (http://www.woodenboatvb.com/vbulletin/upload/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1428236)...
Thanks for the clarification. It is probably hard for people to know that when the thread is titled "Bolger" and the initial post asks why there is so much interest in his designs.
Personally, I'm still confused - are you looking for a good-looking racing boat? (What do you define as good-looking? traditional with overhangs?) A quick but tidy cruising boat?
Everyone has different opinions, so if you could give examples of what you're aiming at, people might be able to be more helpful in their responses.
For myself, I love Nigel Irens' Roxane' - quick, simple systems, and (to my eye) good looking. Is this more of what you had in mind?
http://www.nigelirens.demon.co.uk/FRAMEcruising.htm
http://www.vanveenjachtbouw.nl/roxanephoto.html

[garland reese]

There are likely many opinions of what constitutes a great boat. I'd guess that might well be why we have so many good designs to choose from. I think the majority of self builders take a pretty honest stock of all their resources when making a choice. Many of Mr. Bolger's designs fit the crteria of these builders.
Having said that, there are a bunch of designers out there with some very nice and very doable designs. Ian Oughtred comes to mind. And what of the Atkin designs? Bill Garden draws some of the prettiest boats I know of. Paul Gartside has some wonderful boats. Paul /Fisher is capable of simpicity and grandious types. John Welsford can design boats that both look good and perform well, and are very buildable by the average Joe. Speaking of Joe, what of Joel White....... he's got designs available that rival most any of the traditional greats. It all really depends on what you like at a personal level. Boats are a pretty personal thing, I think. That is a good thing.

Personally, I like those double enders. I enjoy pondering a thought of building Wenda (a Bolger drawn iteration of an Albert Strange design.....impractical perhaps, but few are more beautiful). I also like that 27 foot canoe hull from Mr. Gartside. I'd be proud to build and own any of Oughtred's double-ended cruisers. There are so many designs out there. I think perhaps at least to some degree, there may be a bit of a limitation of designs, because not all designers market themselves in a significant fashion. I'd love to hear of more designers out there who have boats that we ametuers could aspire to build. Personally, my aspirations are squelched by my reality...... I live smack dab in the middle of the US, and I'll most likely always be limited by the constraints of money and access to the water. That will drive my choices to a very great degree.

I'm glad for this thread. It is a great discussion.

[BrianY]

So, your design requirements are differentfrom what Bolger genrerally designs. Fine. But that's no reason to dump on Bolger or his popularity.

I also welcome discussions of different designers and designs, but I would be reluctant to try to ignite such converstions by dumping on one of them - if only by implication.

The funny thing is, I have no great love for most of Bolger's designs myself, yet I feel compelled to defend him (not that he really needs it from the likes of me).

Perhaps you should start a new thread by listing the design parameters you are interesetd in and ask for folks' suggestions as to which designs and designers they think might fit the bill. I bet it would be more productive and informative than this thread.

Here's one from me - Joel White.

[Steve Paskey]

My list would accept sacrifices on the interior room, folding and storage capability, easy - peasy building, special do-dads for collapsible mast or coffee cup holders. I would happily continue driving my 12 year old Mazda sedan a number of years longer and suffer some membership dues or a less easily transported and stored boat... if it gave me something that sailed fast and clean, had a bunk for my head, some room for a crew.

* * *

I reject the idea that my boating requirements are any less laudable. I want a boat that sails well, and will sacrifice the Swiss-army knife approach. I don't need the everything + the kitchen sink. Give me a honed down, straight shooting, real sailboat. One that gives me pleasure to look at and touch. One of simplicity (to keep it hungry and reasonable) but high quality. Lean - no trivial do-dads - luxury not necessary.
Tell us more about what you want, lagspiller, and perhaps we can suggest something.

[Paul Pless]

Tell us more about what you want, lagspiller, and perhaps we can suggest something.

Have you visited lagspiller's homepage? It says a lot about the kinda boats he owns, sails, and dreams for.

http://www.22kvm.net/

[Tristan]

Many years ago I visited an Almogebot rally at Bassholmen near Fiskabeckskill (Svenska vest kust). There I saw many wonderful boats, often with Scanda engines thumping away. Many were 60 or more years old, many were converted fishing boats, boats originally built by or for very poor fishermen. Similarly I have seen traditional boat rallys in Copenhagen, with many beautiful wooden boats. Unfortunately to build such a boat now, in the US is difficult, as good planking and framing is very expensive and hard to obtain unless you live near a source. Further, such boats must generally be kept in the water, an impossibility for those of us of limited means. Bolger's and similar boats have allowed me to get on the water in both sail and motor boats for the past 45 years. It would be nice to have a traditional sharpie, for example, but the cost of mooring or docking it would presently be beyond my means. Hence, I must build a plywood and glass sharpie (assuming I wanted one now). Similarly, a traditional Bahama sloop or sharpshooter whould be wonderful, but the same problems arise as to cost of keeping it in the water. Hence I am building a strip planked/fiberglassed version which I will keep on a trailer.

[rbgarr]

My first exposure to Bolger was in his book 'Small Boats' in the 70s. It's the only one of his books I ever bought. There are some very shapely, even traditional, boat designs in there. His Defender and Lynx come to mind, and Moccassin has been mentioned before.

As time passed I'd see new books of his and when I scanned the copies in the bookstore I rarely bought them. His personal liveaboard boat Evolution (sp?) was about the only one that interested me. His novel was interesting, however, and gave some insight into his thought processes and values.

I wish he hadn't taken offense at things here at the WBF and stopped coming by.

[Tom Robb]

A troll by any other name smells the same.
The forum has no head, no one controlls the content. no one is hideing behind the curtain.
If you see a lack of diversity, discuss a designer(s) more to your taste.

[P.L.Lenihan]

I seem to recall reading in one of Bolgers' books his assertion that the looks we love so much;long over-hangs,low sweeping shear lines,wine-glass sections etc....were nothing more then various designers attempts,over the years,to get around various racing/rating rules, periode. He is also quoted to have taken a solem oath to never look at another rule book.Thus,I suspect the "performance" we seek can be readily had in shapes not normaly considered from the so called traditional styles,which was pretty much any of us were ever exposed to through sailing magazines or books!
Beyond the above, may I suggest that Bolger is something of a gateway designer,allowing many to test their skills-wallets-patience in the amateur field of so called boatbuilding before perhaps taking a far greater and costlier leap.

At any rate, I'm a sucker for his designs and presently plod happily along in my bowshed building my fourth boat and third design from him.Maybe it's something in the water?

Keep a good thought!

Peter

[Keith Wilson]

His novel was interesting, however, and gave some insight into his thought processes and values.Yeah, "interesting" is one way to put it. I honestly wish I hadn't read the novel; I liked his writing a lot better before I had a glimpse of what lurked in the dark recesses of his mind - and further discussion should probably go down to the bilge.

One reason that his boats are so popular is that he writes so well.

[rbgarr]

Keith- It WAS kind of eye opening, wasn't it?

[JimD]

... I sailed on her on Lake Waconia years ago, on a day when it was blowing hard ...Under those extremely lively conditions the Micro was very pleasant to sail: dry, comfortable, and reasonably fast

Keith, why do you suppose that is? I often wondered how they sail, especially how stiff or tender and what happens to them if they are laid on their sides.

[P.L.Lenihan]

JimD,
I owned a MICRO for 10 years and found her to be a treat to sail.With nearly a 50% ballast/displacement ratio she can be counted on to self-right,with authority,from any angle. The perfectly square mid-section,once heeled,presents a wonderful wave slicing "V" shape.The high sides keep her dry.Motoring along into waves,however, can be a thumping experience.At just 15'6", she handles like a 20footer,with aplomb.

Peter

[Keith Wilson]

P.L. knows. My experience is much less than his, but he describes it exactly as I would. The split rig and self-vanging sprit booms are also wonderfully handy. I don't know what it would take to lay one right over, but it would be something pretty extreme.

Keith- It WAS kind of eye opening, wasn't it?Yes. :eek: :eek: :eek:

[dredbob]

Bolger's popularity stems from the fact that he is a prolific writer as well as a prolific designer. This was also the case with L. Francis Herreshoff. Had LFH not published the articles he did in the Rudder, it is unlikely that he would have become as popular and as well known as he was/is. Likewise with Billy Atkins.

If you look around today, there are few designers who take the time to write anything but advertising copy. Bolger's writings are interesting, and educational, and widely read because they are published in the magazines that we (boat nuts) read; starting with the old Small Boat Journal and then in Messing About in Boats.

Back in the 40s and 50s, it was the Rudder and MotorBoat that folks read, and the designers that wrote for them are the ones that are remembered today. LFH had plenty of talented contemporaries who designed plenty of lovely boats, but they were not also writers and hence are not so well remembered.

It's been one of my pet peeves that Wooden Boat does not publish enough design articles written by the designers themselves. We need to have the modern equivalent of the old Rudder series by LFH on the H-28 and the Meadowlark, etc. Of course, the editors will probably say that its because the designers aren't writing those articles.

But if you look at todays boating magazines, almost across the spectrum, the typical design article is a page at most, with a tiny unreadable drawing commented on by a third party who gives his take on the design.
This is better than nothing but I'd really rather have it from the horse's mouth, so to speak, and let the actual designer talk about their own creation.

And this is why Bolger stands out among current designers.

Bob

[Lucky Luke]

....Had LFH not published the articles he did in the Rudder, it is unlikely that he would have become as popular and as well known as he was/is.

..and eventually won a few America cups, been the most innovative boat designer of his time, a high end engineer (hiw scantling rules are still reffered to by the modern Classification Societies), and, to me, definitely the most talented ever!

Excuse me, but any kind of comparison between Bolger and N.G. Herreshoff is really too much! I understand you did not actually compare, but putting them side by side in any way....hum!

Keith and other defenders of Bolger...and even of designs like his MICRO: I did not mean that he designs only ugly boats...he has actually a great talent and most of his creations a real cute, simple (and simple to build), and efficient, I don t deny that. But some are just the ugliest things afloat! Sorry, but the Micro may be a good boat in that she sails correctly, that does not make her prettty! Take the (yes: French) Muscadet: that it, to me , a much better compromise; actually: just a better design.

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder, one says. Right. But since I posted these 2 pictures as actually a joke (these boats are a joke by themselves, so....), and as it is about beauty - or ugliness - that is imposed to other viewers, I propose a TAX on Bolger s infamous designs like these two! :p

[dredbob]

I'm not talking about Nat Herreshoff, but his son LFH. Capt. Nat was a talented designer also, but again, if his son LFH had not written what he did about his father, then the father would not be as well known now as he is. The yacht designers and the yachting historians would still know about them, but the average guy, the one who builds a rowboat or a small sailing cruiser in his backyard, would not have heard of him. The point is that it was the writings of LFH that gained him his popularity with the average Joe, the GIs during WWII with their tattered copies of the Rudder tucked into footlockers and seabags, read over and over again as they dreamed about an H-28 or a Rozinante.

And if you don't think that many of Bolger's designs are not as drop dead gorgeous as anything LFH designed or as technically advanced for its time as what Nat did, then I'd have to say that you've not really seen much of the mans work. He has over 600 designs, the "square boat" stuff is just a fraction of it, albeit the best known.

[lagspiller]

Brian... I think the thread was very productive. (But then I also think it was made clear many times that it wasn't an anti-bolger thread but rather a 'how about something else' thread, so you probably don't agree... but that is ok. The points have been made and no sense beating them to death any more)

Lots of names have been mentioned. Many old ones - but there are probably some new ones in the crop and that is in fact what I was looking for. Not a specific boat or type.

I still think it could be a great series of topics if the newer designers got some of the attention of the designer beginning with B. Look above - names were mentioned, but all of the photos and all of the design ideas are about B. Imagine if this forum could generate a fraction of the energy in presenting some of the other names mentioned.
I don't know much about any of them - and will be googling. But with all the knowledge here....

Thanks for the romp. It's been fun.

[openboater]

(But then I also think it was made clear many times that it wasn't an anti-bolger thread but rather a 'how about something else'
I know this wasn't directed at Phil and Friends, but;

don't get upset at Shakespere just cause people aren't producting play's by Hemingway or Stephen King or Dr Seuss.

They were all writers, but different kind of writers.

There are many kinds of boat designers. some design boats for the common man, some design boats for Bill Gates. Don't blame (wrong word) the participants of WBF for being a lot of Common Folk.

[lagspiller]

A troll by any other name smells the same.
The forum has no head, no one controlls the content. no one is hideing behind the curtain.
If you see a lack of diversity, discuss a designer(s) more to your taste.
As far as I can see, this was the first post meant as a personal attack / labeling. The rest have all been addressed to topic.
Congratulations.

[erster]

This thread gives new meaning to the word opinionated wooden boat hacks. :D Now where did I stick that ugly designed hull from Scratchnsaw designs? :p Lagsplitter, consider this week your day in the barrell as the old saying goes in our parts of the world. Many others have been there and have still spent a lot of hours on the water while others sit on their computers wishing. Have I ever told you about that cross eyed girl friend I had for two years and the fun we had?:D

[Lewisboats]

" designer suggestions is exactly what I myself asked for. I am somewhat familiar with a few older designers. I'd like to read about newer ones - designing different types of boats than Bolger. All I have said is that I can hardly believe that any single designer is the Alpha and Omega of modern boat design. Not much of a rant, actually. I could do much better if I applied myself."


Google!

Come up with some names then ask for opinions on their stuff.
Sounds like you want to say "Hey...tell me about designers I don't know about." Pick some boats that interest you and again...ask about them. Start threads on what you are interested in and hopefully folks will respond. All the mentions of "Bolger" are in response to either questions being asked whether it be about Bolger or as a suggestion to criteria listed in the post or about something by Bolger in the works. You have to start the ball rolling and steer it in the direction you want. If you want to read about other designers then ask about them...by name, by design and/or by criteria (but don't be surprised if someone doesn't slip "B" in on that one).

Steve

[Lewisboats]

A quick list of the subjects immediately below this post at 8:25 am CST:
Coquina Rigging (herreshoff)
Interesting boat for sale (Blondie Hassler)
Looking for the perfect design (a collaborative design)
Initial Stability of a Bolger Peapod (OOps!)
Knarr 23' Cutter (at a guess...Knarr)
Australian Simmons 20 (Simmons)
Oughtred's Farne Islander (Oughtred)
Herreshoff
(One I can't determine )
and another Oughtred


Looks like a pretty mixed bag to me.

Steve

[Keith Wilson]

Luke: I think you are confusing L. Francis Herreshoff (AKA "Old Fussbudget") who wrote articles for The Rudder, with his father Nathaniel Herreshoff, who indeed was an innovative engineer and designed a couple of winning America's cup boats.

Perhaps we could agree on a tax subsidy for any boat designed by Albert Strange? ;)

[Keith Wilson]

Many others have been there and have still spent a lot of hours on the water while others sit on their computers wishing. Oyster, take it back to the bilge where it belongs. I've built four boats so far designed by Bolger, only one of which could possibly be considered a box.

[erster]

Oyster, take it back to the bilge where it belongs. I've built four boats so far designed by Bolger, only one of which could possibly be considered a box.

My reply addressed many of the ones that have opinionated thoughts, or desire a boat to only be of a certain design or pedigree to be considered proper. This thread provides snide remarks concerning a designer and his work, which does not meet and fit a criteria of certain people. There are different strokes for different folks. Bolger has done wonders to provide many hours of fun with little amount of excessive work for the average guy building at home with limited equipment. Been there, done that!. My defense of Bolger and any other design that does not meet or fit in a small circle of folks is spot on.

[Keith Wilson]

Well, that's something we can agree on. Excellent! Sorry, Oyster, my fault; I'm just a bit testy this morning; I'll save it for the bilge where it belongs.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

diverse interest on the part of us?

threads about other designers are also welcome. Why doesn't someone start one, it they'd rather not read about Bolger.

I've owned two boats designed by Phil Bolger. Neither is a "box". Neither can be satidfactorily built of wood; certainly not plywood.

I've found sailing Bolger boats since 1982, and reading other things he has to say to be very rewarding.

Moby Nick

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Does anyone out there know how much it would cost to transport an AS29 to the UK/France for canal cruising adventures?

PL

[erster]

Does anyone out there know how much it would cost to transport an AS29 to the UK/France for canal cruising adventures?

PL
I don't. But take a look at this site as an offshoot.
http://shoal-waters.moonfruit.com/

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Thank you for the fascinating site erster!

PL

[Nicholas Scheuer]

inside a container, and may just do that one day, either to Europe of to St Thomas, VI.

Moby Nick

[Pierre LaRochelle]

Thank you Nicholas,
The container idea seems perfect not only for compactness, but long term storage and security as well. You are definitely on to something here. Investigation underway!

PL

[JimD]

JimD,
I owned a MICRO for 10 years and found her to be a treat to sail.With nearly a 50% ballast/displacement ratio she can be counted on to self-right,with authority,from any angle. The perfectly square mid-section,once heeled,presents a wonderful wave slicing "V" shape.The high sides keep her dry.Motoring along into waves,however, can be a thumping experience.At just 15'6", she handles like a 20footer,with aplomb.

Peter

How was it ballasted? Aside from the pounding issue caused by a wide, flat bottom when not heeled under sail I've always had doubts about flat bottom boats with inside ballast only. So called form stability gets you just so far. Boats of this general design tend to sail tender, yes? Unless they are very wide which creates a whole new set of problems. The flat bottom designs I have always been most drawn to have quite heavy, deep keels, fins, or substantial steel centerboards. The combination of flat bottom and inside ballast typically means the boat has to be heeled quite far over before the ballast creates any appreciable righting arm. I read a review of Bruce Kirby's NIS 29 and the owner found her very tender and uncomfortable in any kind of wind.

[Keith Wilson]

Micro's 420# of ballast is in the keel, not inside. This is the best picture I could find, sorry:

http://www.boatdesign.com/micro/images/mlogo.jpg

[JimD]

That's a heafty chunk of lead well below the waterline. Explains a lot. Would look nice with a junk rig for those of us who like junks.

Edited to add: I've often wished Karl Stambaugh would come up with a similar ballast keel. He draws such a lovely profile.

[John Bell]

I used to have a Micro ballast casting on my back porch. I can certify that it's damn heavy!

[Killick]

There are others that have been mentioned here from time to time.

Personally, I agree with some of the comments made as the Bolger designs that come most readily to mind are not to my own tastes (that said, he has penned some really nice stuff too).

But there are others that also design with the average Joe in mind. A few of my favorites are Dudley Dix, A. C. Gondola (Northwest Marine Design), and Richard Woods (if you're into cats). I think all of these names have popped up on the forum at one time or another.

And some of Uffa Fox's designs stir my blood. I'd love to build a Flying Fifteen (or one of the other "Flying" variations).

There are lots of good designs around by lots of good designers. People tend to cite those that a) they're most familiar with and b) that have designs that meet the criteria of the questions posed in the forum. As someone pointed out earlier many of the questions posed start with "I'm a first time boatbuilder and ...". So ease of construction is often a contributing factor to the answer.

But yeah, it would be nice to see some other designs and designers get identified on the forum every once and a while.

Not to hijack the thread (it's kind've on-topic) but I haven't seen any postings yet on the forum about the PT 15.

Tony

[Tanbark Spanker]

Bolger is an inspiration! *quietly contemplating a meaningful passage from Boat With An Open Mind*

[Tom Robb]

You've seen wrong. Your character is unnown to me, and this isn't an attack.
Nevertheless a troll is a troll.- ment to stirr up controversy. Troll, as in trolling bait to catch curious fish - not the monster under the bridge.
As I said, if you (truely) want to discuss other designers, (please) do so. I (we?) await with eagerness.
The forum goes where its many participants take it. It has no head.

[Lucky Luke]

Luke: I think you are confusing L. Francis Herreshoff (AKA "Old Fussbudget") who wrote articles for The Rudder, with his father Nathaniel Herreshoff, who indeed was an innovative engineer and designed a couple of winning America's cup boats.

Perhaps we could agree on a tax subsidy for any boat designed by Albert Strange? ;)
OOOOPS!!! I did not notice that it was Francis and not Nathanael who was cited!:o

Redwing subsidized?.....mmmmhhh...I like the idea ;)

[Stu Fyfe]

Redwing subsidized?.....mmmmhhh...I like the idea
Now your talking! I'll send this off to the Town of Brewster and see what they say!
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p3312ef7eff7e01c01fd906b52b9f58b1/f9ea21c0.jpg

[JimD]

I wonder how the mainsail handles with the third reef in.

[WX]

Bolger boats may not last 100 years but they do use only a small percentage of the materials that it would take to build one that would. Different strokes for different folks. I admire heavy displacement yachts eg the Pardy's Taleisin...I've even stood on the deck, but if I was to build another it would be a Benton Badger. Why? because I'm not that good a carpenter...not to mention the cost factor.

[Woxbox]

But I reject the idea that my boating requirements are any less laudable. I want a boat that sails well, and will sacrifice the Swiss-army knife approach. I don't need the everything + the kitchen sink. Give me a honed down, straight shooting, real sailboat. One that gives me pleasure to look at and touch. One of simplicity (to keep it hungry and reasonable) but high quality. Lean - no trivial do-dads - luxury not necessary.

I haven't said in a single word that it should be 'traditional'.
But hard chines and flat bottom because that is cheaper or easier to drag through the woods isn't part of the description. The boat might be designed that way - but only if it ADDED to performance in the element it was designed to navigate... the sea.


Sounds to me like you need a Wharram catamaran. I'm surprised there isn't more discussion about him -- like Bolger he's explained his thinking in detail and has built up a considerable catalog of designs. And, like Bolger, there are huge numbers of his ply boats out there, built by amateurs who are now out there doing it.

[Stu Fyfe]

I wonder how the mainsail handles with the third reef in
I do too. My sails were made with only the lower two reef points. I would think the center of effort with the third reef would really increase the weather helm, but I'll never know.

[Lucky Luke]

I wonder how the mainsail handles with the third reef in.
Very well, indeed!
This is a rare but not unknown arrangement, and has the great advantage that boom ang gaff can be raised together since they pivot around the same point (forget the throat hallyard), clearing the deck, away from green water. And to reduce to zero sail in a gust of wind: just lower the peak.

This boat is CUTE!

[JimD]

Very well, indeed!
This is a rare but not unknown arrangement, and has the great advantage that boom ang gaff can be raised together since they pivot around the same point (forget the throat hallyard), clearing the deck, away from green water. And to reduce to zero sail in a gust of wind: just lower the peak.

This boat is CUTE!

I'd imagine a lot of junk rigs, including the one I will soon have will present much the same shape to the wind when reefed down to just the triangle on top.

[norseman]

"You can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Peter Sellers

[JimD]

"You can't fight in here! This is the war room!"
Peter Sellers

We're not fighting, just playing rough. Also, no animals were injured in the making of this thread.

[Tom Lathrop]

We're not fighting, just playing rough. Also, no animals were injured in the making of this thread.

Maybe not but many electrons are being terribly inconvenienced.:rolleyes:

[lagspiller]

true.
And for a 'give us something other than bolger for once' thread, there is a strange propensity to run up the flag...

Can't fight in here.
Well said.