Do we have the right to play God?

[uncas]

I can't believe that I am getting into this.. a religeous question.
I will say my peice and then duck...
Genetic problems happen in all forms of life.. Some are positive, some are detrimental. Death rids the living of potentially defective genes.. It is what happens.. it is life...

I don't think we have the right to play god...... We may have the technology.. but not the right.

Okay, I'm gonna duck now... I figure there will be more flack thrown about here than duting the battle of Midway...

[LeeG]

hell yes we do. We got fire, farming and fermentation. Who are you kidding?

We can name God, write what she says and carry it out with righteous anger.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Jamie man - I thought you had a grasp of the basics.

Things live a while and then they die.

It really does not matter if you think you are playing god - someone has to do it.

[uncas]

P.I.. ya forgot taxes in there... somewhere!

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Taxus - yew might just avoid.

[Bruce Hooke]

What exactly are you arguing for or against? Stem cell research? Cloning? Gene therapy? Genetic engineering of plants or animals? Any medical care that allows someone with less desirable genetic traits (say a weak heart) to survive long enough to procreate?

[LeeG]

indoor plumbing, we should be sh*tting in the woods like bears

[Osborne Russell]

It really does not matter if you think you are playing god - someone has to do it.

It matters a great deal if you think you are carrying out God's plan.


It is important to note that there has been no change in man's commission to rule over and subdue the earth but sin has greatly affected every part of man and every part of the creation. For example, the dominion of man over animals is now weakened: since the flood they have acquired a fear of man (Gen 9:2) and have become a permitted food (Gen 9:3).

-- The Environment and the Christian: What Can We Learn From The NewTestament? Calvin B. Dewitt, Ed., Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, MI), 1991.

[ishmael]

A book you'd like. I posted it on another thread, but I think it's one of the most profound books about these issues ever written. Ahem.

"Expecting Adam," Martha Beck.

[High C]

indoor plumbing, we should be sh*tting in the woods like bears

http://www.jsgrove.com/photo_gallery/images2/Kissing%20Polar%20bears%20-%20Copyright%20Jack%20S.%20Grove.jpg

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

It matters a great deal if you think you are carrying out God's plan.

To whom?

[Mrleft8]

Playing god? Who's "Playing"?...... :D

[George.]

We don't play God. We play nature. Nature is what kills people and what weeds out "bad genes"through natural selection.

And we are all nature's agents - plague-bearing rats, crocodiles, HIV, and even humans. And we humans kill more of our own than any other species. But for some reason, we are full of qualms about killing fetuses and small children. We prefer to kill our own as adults, through aerial bombardment of cities. At least in the West.

[Mrleft8]

I prefer a garote....Or a thin bladed knife through the rib cage...

[Osborne Russell]

To whom?


To all thereby placed in harm's way.

[Osborne Russell]

A book you'd like. I posted it on another thread, but I think it's one of the most profound books about these issues ever written.

Me too, but likely for different reasons. "Man's commission to rule over and subdue the earth" is the evil root of middle eastern monotheism.

[crawdaddyjim50]

Why not? God did it and we know he don't do nothing bad.

Or

Play him for what? And wouldn't he know it was a play on our part?

Just askin.......

[crawdaddyjim50]

http://www.jsgrove.com/photo_gallery/images2/Kissing%20Polar%20bears%20-%20Copyright%20Jack%20S.%20Grove.jpg

If it weren't for women we would be running around in the woods eating berries and laying around waiting for the game to come on. :D

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

It matters a great deal if you think you are carrying out God's plan.
I asked "To Whom?".

To all thereby placed in harm's way.

No. sorry - Any "thereby placed in harm's way" are placed there in consequence of actions, not of beliefs.

[The Bigfella]

I normally don't bother opening these "sky pilot" threads, but did so out of curiosity because I'm going to a friend's 15 year old daughters' funeral in the morning.

We have the technology to have kept her alive - but she was profoundly disabled, in respiratory arrest and clearly suffering. Is it playing god to not use the technology at our disposal to have artificially kept her alive? I had discussed this issue (not in god-bothering terms) with the father some weeks ago. They made the difficult, but humane choice.

Its a foul mind that won't use the technology available to us to minimise suffering.

Ian

[martin schulz]

Do we have the right to play God?

No - get rid of the death penalty!

[The Bigfella]

Do we have the right to play God?

No - get rid of the death penalty!


We've got a guy sitting in prison down here who killed 35 people 10 years ago. I'd pull the lever on his life any day you want to nominate.

[martin schulz]

We've got a guy sitting in prison down here who killed 35 people 10 years ago. I'd pull the lever on his life any day you want to nominate.

>sigh< yes and that's probably why Saddam Husseins death-sentence is considered to be major sucess in bringing democracy by the US president.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Martin, I think "BigFella" is an Australian

[martin schulz]

Martin, I think "BigFella" is an Australian

Oops - true. Unfortunately I don't know much about the australian decision on death-penalty.

[hansp77]

no need to kill him Ian,
all we'd have to do is let him kill himself,
like he has tried to do a few times.

BTW, (personally) I don't support the death penalty in any form for any person.
Some like him, and of course the other obvious one at the moment, bring me closer to challenging these ethics- but so far they still stand.

Somehow, I actually prefer that Bryant is so miserable that he wants to kill himself. I hope he has a very long life ahead of him to choke on that misery and truely contemplate and understand what he has done, and every time time he ties a sheet round his neck, I hope there is someone to cut him down (maybe after he kicks a bit). I don't know what 'justice' is in things like this, but quick relief from his guilty conscience- somehow that doesn't quite cut it for me.

But aside from that,
it is nice to agree for a change,
and regarding your thoughts on your freinds daughter, and the issue of life preserving technology, I think (if I do understand you correctly) that I couldn't agree more.

In that case, and of course others like it, i don't think that it is 'playing god' at all.
It seems like once we have a new technological potential to keep a person alive (often against what appears to be the 'will' of the body, soul or mind) then some appear to think that it is something of a crime to not use this technology to its fully drawn-out potential.

I am sorry to hear about that situation,
probably the hardest of decisions to make,
and done with only the best of intentions.

Hans.

[huisjen]

It is important to note that there has been no change in man's commission to rule over and subdue the earth but sin has greatly affected every part of man and every part of the creation. For example, the dominion of man over animals is now weakened: since the flood they have acquired a fear of man (Gen 9:2) and have become a permitted food (Gen 9:3).

-- The Environment and the Christian: What Can We Learn From The NewTestament? Calvin B. Dewitt, Ed., Baker Book House (Grand Rapids, MI), 1991.

Yikes. Let me translate some of this for those hard of reading. The man's first name is Calvin, as in John Calvin. His last name is Dewitt, as in western Michigan Dutch Calvinist. He's published out of Grand Rapids, home of Calvin College. This man isn't simply an average christian. He's part of the Dutch Christian Reform Church. (I have many relatives in that church, an ancestor was one of the founders, and Dad is a Calvin College alumnus.)

Once, sitting at the lunch table at the ag research station where I used to work, conversation turned to ancestors and I mentioned that one of mine was a Christian Reform founder. The (English decended) South African woman sitting across the table gave a semi-shocked look and said, "Those are the ones who were the strongest supporters of apartheid." But I'd already known that.

Slocum talks of these sorts of people when he stopped in South Africa. They scolded him for saying he was sailing around the world rather than across it, because the world is flat.

Dan

[Milo Christensen]

Or as they like to say over there in West Michigan; "If you ain't Dutch, you ain't much".

[huisjen]

thems the ones.

[Osborne Russell]

I asked "To Whom?".


No. sorry - Any "thereby placed in harm's way" are placed there in consequence of actions, not of beliefs.

A belief is an action and an action is a belief.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

A belief is an action ....

Oh, How might one detect such an "action" - let's say at a distance of 400 metres.

[Osborne Russell]

His last name is Dewitt, as in western Michigan Dutch Calvinist . . . This man isn't simply an average christian. He's part of the Dutch Christian Reform Church.

John Calvin left the church because it wasn't Christian. He left Switzerland because they didn't like him. He and his followers went to Holland and acquired many Dutch followers.

They in turn acquired many English followers. They left the church because it wasn't Christian. They went to Holland. Then they came to America. Some left the church because it wasn't Christian and moved to the midwest and some ultimately became Western Michigan Dutch Calvinist Christian Reform Christians.

Right so far?

Anyway, what's not average about any of the above?

[Osborne Russell]

Oh, How might one detect such an "action" - let's say at a distance of 400 metres.

By its characteristically associated belief.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You have then - a "Belief-o-meter" - we hereby demand pictures - and the operating manual.

[Osborne Russell]

You have then - a "Belief-o-meter" - we hereby demand pictures - and the operating manual.

I don't know if there is such a thing. In the past, we've relied on the study of the humanities.

[jbelow]

uncas , Why did you bring up Gods name in the bilge . Most of the bilge people don't know God because they are spiritually ignorant .

[johnw]

Golf. It's golf we have the right to play.

[Bob Cleek]

I saw a documentary show on TV the other night about the real guy who was the character in the "Rainman" movie. He's forty-something now and his father takes care of him. He was charming and amazing as well. While he really has little or no reasoning ability, he was humorous and has this incredible memory. Point is, while he is arguably "useless" by some measures, he has a life. He gives "differently abled" a whole new meaning. Should society authorize the killing of infants like him? I sure can't justify it!

[johnw]

I saw a documentary show on TV the other night about the real guy who was the character in the "Rainman" movie. He's forty-something now and his father takes care of him. He was charming and amazing as well. While he really has little or no reasoning ability, he was humorous and has this incredible memory. Point is, while he is arguably "useless" by some measures, he has a life. He gives "differently abled" a whole new meaning. Should society authorize the killing of infants like him? I sure can't justify it!

Aside from you, I don't recall anyone advocating killing that sort of person. Is there a movement to kill the autistic, and if so, why have I never heard of it?

[Keith Wilson]

We all must play God. We are all unavoidably part of nature, with not the slightest chance of being separate from it. Every one of our lives depend absolutely on killing living things and eating them. Get used to it. The only question is will you do it well or badly.

[bamamick]

afraid to ask a tough question. My opinion? We do it every single day, it's just a matter of where and how you draw the line. Every time someone performs an operation they are playing God. Every time a c-section is done to deliver a child (and the mother) as all three of mine were delivered they are playing God.

Oh boy, this is tough for me to talk about. I believe in God. I am a Christian. What I believe is, of course, not the same as what everyone else believes, it is mine alone. But one thing that I believe is that God has given us the ability to explore our options, but He also gives us the things that we need to temper our explorations with concsience. Is it right to create life in a lab? Is it wrong to kill for any reason? Is it right to enforce your will on another, even if you feel that it is for his own good? Ah, man. Too many questions and too many painful answers.

Find your boat, Jamie. Find your boat and sail her. And count yourself blessed that you were born and lived in this country at this time and place that allows for such things to happen. Do no harm, that's about the best answer that I could ever give to your question. First, do no harm.

Mickey Lake