Love the sails, not the sailmaker

[Pernicious Atavist]

I got a mainsail for my skiff from a highly recommended sailmaker. It's great. I then ordered a self-tacking jib from the same maker. It's great, with one exception: it's not right for my boat.

Why?

Because the obviously skillful and trustworthy sailmaker (he is, he did great work) gave me no help when I obviously needed it. For both sails, he flat couldn't be bothered to give me his insight. It was a take it or leave it kind of relationship, though the jib is the real issue. He wouldn't even tell me where the CE was on the main to help me while I was building the boat.

For the jib, I gave him the dimensions of my boat and told him what I wanted. He returned with a suggested size. I thought it was too small in the foot, so I asked if it could be larger. He quickly responded with another size (the one I got) and added that he'd make anything I wanted, but in a pretty snotty tone (in writing, but it was there). At no time did he tell me the longer foot would cause problems, so now I'm trying to compensate for my ignorance and his indifference to it. In just a few words he could have enlightened me to the problem but apparently couldn't be bothered.

By my reckoning, specialists have a duty to guide the customer to an effective choice. I figure I'm paying not just for his skills, but his insight (within reason). That's why we go to them in the first place; we don't have the knowledge and rely on them to help.

Am I wrong?

I'll probably have him make my future sails, but I'll rely on someone else to help me decide what I need, not what I think I need.

[Uncle Duke]

I guess there's a difference between a sailmaker (who will stitch up cloth) and a sail design expert (who will figure out centers of effort and centers of resistance and righting moment, etc). It sounds like you got a sailmaker when what you wanted was a sail design expert who also stitches.
And, really, it sounds like the process went OK. You asked for his advice, he gave it to you, you wanted something different, he said that he'd make whatever you wanted. And he did. I'm not sure where the problem is...

[pcford]

Of the professionals in the marine "industry" sailmakers seem to be most full of themselves.

Work on modern sails, to my untrained eye at least, is appallingly crude.

[Pernicious Atavist]

Uncle, my statement:"my ignorance and his indifference to it" is the point. He knew I didn't know, and he didn't try to lead me. "The customer is always right" is wrong. I've got the proof!

[Uncle Duke]

PA - I wasn't trying to minimize the issue, just to suggest that he may not have been the right person for your needs. Maybe he gave you all the insight he had based on his experience as a 'stitcher'? His perception was probably that what you wanted was some fabric cut to shape and stitched - your perception was that what you wanted was an in-depth discussion of needs/expectations/options followed by expert advice followed by stitching.
Wrong guy for your needs. On the other hand you got a sail out of it (to your specs), and recutting is cheaper than starting over, I guess.

[Jim Budde]

I agree ... the customer is not always right, and anyone who holds himself out as a professional (expert or not) is obligated to tell the customer when he (the customer) is wrong .. even if it means losing the business.

But the question must be asked .. why would you go back? By going back you are just reinforcing his behavior .. I know that sounds like psycho- babble, but it's true. I'd find someone who could both stitch and design for my next sail.

[capt jake]

Hes' not a transplant from WA is he? Sounds exactly like a guy who used to live here and sew sails.

[Thorne]

I'm also not sure what the problem is -- he made a recommendation, you said you wanted something else, so he did what you asked -- what's the problem?

Either you could take his advice or not. You apparently didn't.

Unless you are paying him to argue with you, and/or teach you all sorts of things about sailmaking that you don't know, I'm not clear on what you expect from someone in business. If he is a super-high-end sailmaker and you are paying significantly more than you would at other sail lofts, I can see your point -- but for standard rates I'm afraid I can't.

I've dealt with this issue in other businesses -- one thing I've done is design websites. I'll work up a site for a client, they come back with comments like, "I want a black background and LOTS of animated gifs (1989 design hits)". If I refuse I either lose the job or they are unhappy with my properly designed site. I won't comply so if they don't like my design they can find someone else to design their site.

But I don't think you can expect everyone to be that stubborn -- if you insist on a feature or element, you may get just what you ask for. If it doesn't work out -- who is to blame?

You seem to feel that he should have tried to challenge your decision -- can you put a number on the hours you feel he should have spent doing this? Factor that time into his time spent writing you plus making the sails -- do you think he should have charged you more? If not, do you think he should have possibly taken a loss on this particular job because you didn't know what you apparently needed to know about sail design? How many losses like this can he be expected to take before he goes out of business?

Hey, for all he knew you could easily have been right, as you know much more about the actual boat design, hull form, mast and spar sizes, etc. If the larger sail had worked out would you still have been angry because he initially disagreed with you?

[Todd Bradshaw]

In all fairness, these things sometimes go both ways. Some of the most headstrong, clueless-know-it-all people I've ever met were sailors. You can't imagine how many times I've wanted to say "I don't give a rat's ass if you are a hot-shot lawyer or surgeon, you don't know sh!t about sails and ought to shut up so that we can come up with something that will actually work on your boat."

Obviously, if you want the work these things need to be done a bit more delicately, so it can be a tricky situation and you know damned well that after you talk some of these people into, or out of, what they had in mind, they still may never believe you because they never got the chance to see for themseves that their idea was a failure. I don't participate in this kind of discussion any more. If I don't like it, I just don't build it and they can go elsewhere.

It's also not my job to design their boat or rig unless I happen to want to, know it's something within my capabilities and I'm specifically hired to do it in addition to designing and building the sails. This guy may be a royal jerk, but you hired him to design and build a sail. He designed it, you decided that you wanted him to change the design, he did and built it to your specifications. So now it's all his fault that it doesn't work because he couldn't or didn't figure out that your input was wrong and should have been ignored? He gets the little red thumbs down icon and you walk away innocent ? I don't think that's gonna' fly.

One more thing for Duke - There is a very limited amount of information provided in most boat plans. The stuff you would need to figure out things like righting moments and even accurate CLR's is nearly always absent. It's the intellectual property of the boat's designer and not something even available to sailmakers, whether their "sail design experts" or just one of us lowly stitchers. So don't waste your time trying to find a sailmaker who will or can provide such info. If you need it, try to pry it out of the designer and then take the results to your sailmaker if it's critical for building the sails, changing the rig, etc.

[Pernicious Atavist]

points all well taken, gentlemen. thanks!

[Tom W.]

There are lots of sailmakers out there. Some are more knowledgeable than others. When I had my sails made I spoke to a half dozen about what I wanted, and found some who seemed to know what to do and some who did not. I thought more than a few were mainly seamstresses, not knowing much about sails but lots about sewing.
Why would you go back to this guy in the future if you were not completely satisfied? Lots of sail lofts are out there, talk to more sailmakers and go with somebody you like. Simple, seems to me.

[Todd Bradshaw]

While we're at it, lets get one more thing clear. There are certainly employees in big production lofts who do nothing more than sew. That's their job. Sew panel A to panel B and that's about all they need to know. But sucessfully designing, cutting and assembling a sail from scratch to fit the measurements you give him or her is a lot more involved than just sewing. It's both ignorant and insulting to assume that all they really know is how to sew. If they can make and sell enough sails to stay in business, you can be sure that somebody along the way must also know how to design, cut and shape a proper sail and is doing that work on every sail they make.

Some individuals may be better at communication and customer relations than others (it's surprising how many people you see at trade shows who turn out lovely boats and boating accessories and yet are just horrible at dealing with customers and potential customers). Some may be much more interested in one-off, custom constructions than others, due to the fact that they take more labor time and generally are more difficult and pay less than more common sails, and some may be much better and more skilled at custom design work than others, but you don't stay around long in the small loft business if you don't know your stuff - no matter how neatly you can sew. It sounds to me like this guy's "problem" has much more to do with his communication skills than his sailmaking skills. Especially for one-of-a-kind, custom projects, these things may be equally important. If you don't seem to be making that communication link, you may want to look elsewhere for a builder.

[George Ray]

It's exactly what I asked for, but it's not what I want. ....... Everybody has done it at one time or another.

I try to find craftsman that I respect and trust and tell them that I understand that their time is valuable (every second of it) and that I expect to be charged for every little bit of it that I take up with my project and any related issues, starting with this conversation.

***************

A lot of good comments it this thread. What I get out of it is that clear communication of expectations is a key component of any successful transaction.

The subtext of the transaction between a customer and any craftsman (after establishing that you understand that their time is valuable) should be along the lines of, " I am hoping that you will help me figure out (a) what I need (NOT WANT-but need) and, (b) what it takes to get there.

However, that type of interaction is difficult for most people, can take a lot of time and comes at the front end of the customer-craftsman relationship in the area called by most customers, "FREE ESTIMATE", that comes right before "CHARGE FOR WORK DONE" which is followed by "WAITING TO GET PAID". Not a lot of incentive for the average craftsman.

[Tylerdurden]

This subject gets to the core of things. I repair restaurant equipment for a living. I always try to understand the intended use and the procedure applied. I ask questions and observe then recommend a solution to the problem. I work with a crew of outstanding technicians but consistently my sales are a third higher than the other ten technicians. Why? I am no smarter, I have no golden wrench, I am far from good looking and have a streetfighter personality.
The difference is I look listen and try my best to apply my experience to the problem at hand to the customer.
It equates to trust and understanding of one another.
I have no problem with taking my time to watch what is being done to the point of learning their process in production to find the problem that was hidden from the techs that came before me.
Its not rocket science, just good business.
Find a different sailmaker, one that will work with you. Maybe his quality might not be the same but I would take an inferior product that worked over the work of art that doesn't.
Also write a letter to the first and explain your reasons for changing.
It may do no good, but a real man would learn from that and change his ways.

[Tom Hunter]

I have had bad experiences with sailmakers that were similar to the one you describe, and good experiences since then, because I learned something.

It is worth calling around and talking to sailmakers, or anyone else doing skilled work for you, and seeing how helpful they are willing to be. I find things go better if I explain what I know and don't know about the topic as well.

Sometimes you have to pay a bit more, for example I just bought new sails for my sloop, and I had the sailmaker put in a day of his time to come out and bend them on with me. Next time I will know enough to handle that myself, but this time I needed someone who could and would do this.

I don't think you can assume that your sailmaker knew that you were ordering the wrong size sail. Maybe he is a jerk, maybe he just thought you knew more than you did. Put it down as a learning experience.

[kc8pql]

I don't think you can assume that your sailmaker knew that you were ordering the wrong size sail. Maybe he is a jerk, maybe he just thought you knew more than you did. Put it down as a learning experience.
And the next move is to ask him if the sail can be recut so you can use it.

[bamamick]

and iirc, his comment was (very much paraphrased) 'please do not try and tell a sailmaker how to make sails, since it is their job to know how to do that and the odds are they are right and you are wrong'. And I am willing to bet that in 99% of the cases that that is correct. Now, if you feel as if you been have treated rudely that's another thing entirely.

I have bought sails from North, Sobstad, Quantum, Doyle, Shore, you name it. Just recently I have bought a sail from WB in Finland. All of these folks are tolerably polite (especially the Finns, at least so far), but not especially attentive. It is just part of it, I suppose, when you have a business run by a few folks trying to service more customers than they can handle. Most lofts today are about three months behind, and it appears as if that's the way they like it. I worked for a sail loft for awhile when I was a kid. No one but the owner of a loft makes any money at all. They do it because they like the job. Anyway, something that I decided long ago was that I wanted more for my money than just a sail in a bag. I am like you, PA in that I want a little personal attention.

Over the years I have known and been friends with several sailmakers. I have a friend now who runs a loft in Pensacola with another guy, and they pretty much make all of my sails. My friend has always been one that has shown interest in any project that I can come up with, like making sails for my Dragon and Finn when he had never even seen either boat before. And he did a very good job on all of those sails. Research through the web makes it easier, but he also comes down and measures everything and looks at bend characteristics himself. A person who shows an interest in you personally is rare in this day and age, even though you are paying your hard-earned money down for it. In my opinion it is not too much to ask. The guys who work on my boats or make my sails take an interest in how I do while racing because they are my friends, for one thing, but also because it is a reflection on them how well I do. My advice, do not try and tell an expert his job, but do expect some personal attention for your money. If you don't feel comfortable with your sailmaker I wouldn't give him another pfennig.

Mickey Lake

[SV Papillon]

Sailmakers willing to teach as well as give you their time for free exist. In an age of give me more for less it is hard to critisize someone for just making what was specified. The average cost of materials for a quality handmade sail exceed what one of the big lofts will sell you a finished sail for.

Jake

[mdevour]

I had a similar experience with a better outcome. I cooked up a totally new sailplan for our weekend skiff when I had no right at all to do so. I took the (approximately to scale) sketches to this sail maker, told him about the project, warned him that I didn't know much beyond what I'd put in the sketches, and asked what he thought he could do for us.

The sails we got are very good considering all the things I didn't know and hadn't worked out about the rigging at the time. There are a couple of places where I'd move a grommet or leave a little clearance at a corner, and the reef point is too high, but I feel it's a better job than I could have hoped for, for what amounts to a prototype!

Will I go back to him for more sails? Yes. He was personable, interested in what we were doing, and able to give me what I needed despite my ignorance. In my turn, I gave him the room he needed to work.

I'm lucky.

Mike D.