Greetings — and a 'starting over' question — especially to the Arch Davis builders.

[River Sailor]

I've been lurking on and off the last couple months as I prepare to begin construction on my Penobscot 14. The depth and breadth of this forum has impressed me tremendously. I respect and appreciate your willingness to share information, knowledge and experience. You should be rightfully proud of the community you've built together.

In case you're interested: First introduced to sailing in my early teens 40 years ago. Sailed mostly on Lake Hartwell in SC. Moved to Brunswick, Maine in 1999. During the next 6 years I was fortunate to sail the entire coast of Maine; explore further down east to New Brunswick as well as enjoy two outstanding sojourns to Nova Scotia. (A lot of that was crewing for a friend who had built a cold-molded, 39' Norman Cross trimaran. Very sweet!) Since moving to Madison, Indiana in June of 05, I miss the stunning Maine coast, but certainly not the winters!

Madison is nice, but there's one thing missing as the Ohio River flows past the riverwalk: a salty little vessel plying the wind on the good days and rowing smartly on the calm ones. I plan to correct that with my Penobscot 14.

Having watched Arch Davis' video more times than I can count, poured over the plans and read Brooks/Hill and Oughtred, I'm ready to start, but I am very curious to ask all of you: If you were starting over, what, if anything, would you do different?

Thank you in advance for your thoughts. I look forward to learning as well as sharing my successes and uh-oh's that are inevitable as things progress!

RS

[ddeaton]

RS, I have lost your number. give me a call and we can hook up. I was out of town the weekend you came through. I still owe you a cd.

[River Sailor]

Sounds good, Danny — I'll get in touch.

[Thorne]

Haven't built a PB14, but I was getting ready to order the plans when I acquired my fir over oak dory skiff.

It might help if you describe your plans -- will the whole boat be bright, or all painted, or bright inside/painted outside, etc? What sort of sailing rig, rudder design, all that stuff.

[Tom W.]

River Sailor:
Arch's designs are very well thought out and easy to interpret, at least in my experience. I built the 17 last year and have enjoyed the boat very much. The building experience was good, not any major glitches that I recall.
Arch encourages builders not to get too wrapped up over minutae, such as what type of screws to use, he recommends using regular hardware store screws, they'll be sealed in epoxy, and regular marine plywood. I used BS1088 meranti and I would definitely go that route, or even better, the okoume. The ply is more expensive but I have seen some very poor quality "marine" plywood at the yards. You have to inspect the plywood unless you buy from a very good supplier and get the Lloyds endorsed stuff. This is the strength of the boat.
I didn't go overboard with paint, either, used a Petit primer and then regular high gloss enamel. This boat will not be sitting at a mooring, but spend most of its life on a trailer. With good surface prep it will look very good.
I made a few mistakes that only I know about, for the most part. Some stuff I wish I had spent more time on, but that's for the next boat now. The thing is to get the boat built and then go sailing. Unless you are going to eat coffee cake off this thing, don't try to make a museum piece. Do your best and apply what you learned to the next boat, and the next, etc. Pretty soon you will figure you just might know what you are doing.
I might add, one of the best things about building a boat is all the neat tools you get to buy.

[Miami Mike]

Welcome River Sailor,

To echo Tom I would have used a higher grade of plywood. The money saved when looking at the project over the whole was minimal.

The best tip I can give to ease your building process was that I wound up using plastic packing tape to run along the longitudinal stringers on both sides of the planks when epoxying. It used a few rolls of tape but it made clean up of the squeezed out epoxy a breeze. Unfortunately I didn't find this tip until my last 3 or 4 planks. If I built another I'd use this tape everywhere I was epoxying, I'm a messy guy.

The most important piece of advise to follow may be from Arch Davis himself. He says in the booklet something to the affect of don't point out your mistakes to others. I found this to be a rule to live by. I found that when I don't point out my mistakes no one seems to notice them. Who knows, maybe the combination of not mentioning the mistakes and time, I might forget about them as well!

Good luck. You're going to enjoy this.
Mike

[River Sailor]

Thorne, I'm planning on a gunter rig, inside bright, outside painted white. Haven't thought about the rudder — was assuming I'd follow Arch's plan for that. Do you have a rudder suggestion I should consider? I've seen pictures that I liked where other builders have deviated from Arch's suggestions on finishing touches. Things like recessing the breasthook and quarter knees down slightly instead of even with the railcaps, and custom hatch access ports. I look forward to playing with those choices — but that will be awhile. I do have some very nice, very old mahogany my father-in-law salvaged from a pallet 40 years ago and has had in his shop ever since. He recently gave it to me and I'm planning on using it for accents (centercase logs and more). A local lumberyard has some nice cypress I plan to use for the stringers, keelson, transom, etc. And I found several hundred feet of cherry at a yard sale (of all places) for a song — some of that should wind up in the boat as well.

Tom and Mike, I like what you've said about the plywood. I have already ordered the meranti and it does look good. The boat will spend most of its life on the trailer so it makes sense to prep the surfaces well and I'm sure the paint will look fine! Don't plan to use it as a serving platter for coffee cake, for sure, but I think it would be too compelling to aim for museum quality, when all I really want to do is go sailing. I'll have to remind myself of the old adage: 'Done is better than perfect.' Any excuse to buy tools is great and to help build a boat, well, that's all the better. So far I've had good success on ebay, amazon, yard sales and last Christmas got a Lee Valley shoulder plane that feels so very fine! Can't wait to cut those gains...

Great idea about the clear tape, Mike. I'll put that one to good use. Saw the pics of your turn over party — looked like it was a lot of fun. And the boat was looking mighty fine as well. I couldn't see one mistake! When's the launching party?

Thanks for the comments.

[almeyer]

Arch Davis only shows one rudder plan for the P-14. It's a lifting type, fairly high aspect ratio, and extremely effective, even under the slow speed of oars. I added a downhaul on mine, would also like to rig an uphaul, but haven't figured out away to do it that I like just yet.
You should be pleased with the gunter sloop rig, it seems to be the most popular of the three sailing rigs shown. I've got the standing lug rig on my boat, and I like the ease of setup of this rig compared to the sloop. But the sloop should sail better in light air (more canvas than the lug) and point a little higher. Everything's a compromise - you decide what's important.
Are you going with a daggerboard or centerboard? The daggerboard is simpler to make and takes up less space, but the centerboard is kinder to your boat when you go "bump" in thin water.
By all means make a yourself a pair of oars. That will be good practice for making the spars, and the boat rows well.
Al

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Al and I built our Arch Davis boats around the same time but mine is the smaller Sanddollar. Wish I would have built the 14 instead. Made lots of errors but nobody can see 'em they just go on and on about, "Great wooden boat you have!"

Don't be too much a slave to the plans. For example I eliminated the knees on the thwart and don't miss them. I added supports underneath instead. They just looked to me like they were ripe to gouge the side of a thigh.

Arch is probably without equal regarding support. Manual, video and available on the phone. Very helpful and VERY patient. He explained to me at the beginning when I sounded panic stricken about what I had gotten myself into, "You have made the mistake of thinking you are building a boat. For now you are simply putting together several sub assemblies that will become a boat in time." Soothing to my frantic mind. And he was right, I have a boat.

[River Sailor]

Going with the centerboard, Al. Want to be ready for the skinny water, I guess, but never really thought about the daggerboard. Love your idea of making the oars as practice for the spars. I've seen threads here on oar making — looks like there is a lot of support. Love the look of spoon oars, but will decide that later.

The gunter rig has always appealed to me and am determined to figure out ways to rig it quickly and easily. Have thought of using pelican hooks to attach the shrouds. But I don't know if that idea is pure folly! I've never thought through the rigging of a boat, but I'm enjoying the process.

The knees have bugged me, Captain. Seems like you lose a good bit of the seat having them right in the middle! I like your idea and I've also thought of moving them further forward to gain a little more seating area.

I have also found Arch very helpful when I've called. Glad your sub assemblies become the boat you were wondering about, but now can be proud of!

[Dennis Rioux]

The knees... the knees... pardon me while I have a flashback... :rolleyes:

http://planck.phys.uwosh.edu/rioux/boats/scot/scot_40.jpg

You asked if there were things that P14 builders would do differently and I'd have to say the knees would be it. Big and beefy and, yes, in the way. The flashback has to do with fitting them around the stringers -- I was at the point of taking a sledge to the hull in frustration and had to walk away for a few weeks. If I had it to do over again I would spend some time looking for a more elegant and quicker solution. Laminated? Or solid with some graceful arc? Something...

Good luck with the project!
Dennis

[almeyer]

This is not the best picture, but I used knees laminated from several pieces of 1/8" thick ash. A spacer block was glued below the stringer to provide some bearing area. The laminated knees are a bit more trouble to make than using solid stock, but they should be every bit as strong, take up less space, and are a bit more elegant. But if I were to do it over again, I'd use mechanical fasteners for the knees and thwarts rather than gluing them in permanently. It will make it a lot easier to re-finish the interior, which I'm going to start after the holidays.
Al
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid118/p3f944de0096209cbe4d314270f5752c7/f882cc9e.jpg

[River Sailor]

Well, Al & Dennis, I'll certianly ponder the knee issues — you've both given me more to consider. I hadn't even thought about fitting them around the stringers, and never considered mechanical fasteners for removal.

I've seen lots of pictures from both of your builds. You were both inspirations when I was looking for a design, and helped sway me to the PB 14. I appreciate your pictures being available — thank you!

[Thorne]

I'll admit I've never understood the attraction of knees on top of the thwarts. Since I never plan to hang my boat by the thwarts, don't see any need to have them supported so strongly against upward pressure -- plus they really seem like they'd eat up a lot of space!

I'd be tempted to go with a block on the hull underneath and screws into that from above. If more support was needed I'd use a brace underneath - probably a dowel or leg brace to the floorboards.

Here's a brace to support the crosspiece underneath my sternsheets -
http://www.luckhardt.com/newyoke3.jpg

[River Sailor]

I agree with you on not understanding the attraction to knees on top of the thwarts, Thorne. And they sure take up a lot of room on the seats. I do assume their function is important — I just don't know what it is. Maybe in a design like the Penobscot 14 they are there to keep the hull from flexing out? Your boat has a strong built-in frame running athwartship (I'm sure it has a proper name, but I don't know it!) that the PB 14 lacks. So, maybe the knees tied into the seats provide similar type of stability. Dunno.

Since I just started the build last weekend, I'm months away from needing to address the question. In the meantime it'll be fun to learn more about this.

[Thorne]

Yeah, I can never remember the name of it either -- it is called a "seat riser" in the Gardner Dory Book. Darn handy thing when you don't have an inwale or open gunwale, as otherwise there isn't anything to tie things onto.

Maybe someone here will know the reason for the knees on top of the thwarts rather than just using supports/knees underneath?

Again, before modifying the plans I'd sure ask Arch Davis -- he is very easy to contact.

[Paul Girouard]

#1: Maybe someone here will know the reason for the knees on top of the thwarts rather than just using supports/knees underneath?

#2: Again, before modifying the plans I'd sure ask Arch Davis -- he is very easy to contact.

I'd venture the knee is for outward support the stringers would hold the planks / in this case / boat thin plywood together but would not provide much outward support , the oar locks are close by , when peopl climb in and out stress will be put outwardly on the sides , when handling theboat , loading / unloading the side will get grabbed and lifted on putting outware stress on the boat .

The maranti plywood is what 5/16,? 3/8"? thickness, so not very strong.

When/ If I build my PS 14 I think I will move then to,

#1 A)

#1: the edge of the seat , I'd fasten to the side / edge of the seat , keeping more seat clear / useable .

#2: Make them more knee shaped / like than the ones in Dennis's photo , those look more like corble used in house / cabinet work , IMO , no offence Dennis , hey you have built a boat I'm still yakkin about it :rolleyes: .

The laminated ones don't look right to me , again not offence just not what I like to see / would do.

#3 I'd also cut a half moon / drain hole so water , slop , fish slime etc could be flushed off / around / thru the knee.



#2 B): I'd also recommend the call to Arch he's always been friendly with me on the phone the few times we've talked .

[almeyer]

I've been rowing/sailing my Penobscot for two years now, and I haven't found the knees to get in the way. But then again, most of the time I'm out solo. When I do row with a passenger, I sit on the forward thwart, so my butt straddles the knees with room to spare. And the forward thwart is really not wide enough for two people, unless you're looking at small kids. When I row solo, I'm on the rear thwart, again in the center. And when sailing, I'm normally on one of the side benches. But that's just my preference, just like my preference for the laminated knees - other folks may (and do) have different tastes, and that's alright. Some folks like chocolate ice cream, some folks like vanilla. Neither one is good or bad, they're just different. Bottom line, it's your boat. Build it the way that suits you. And ditto the comment to call Arch. He'll give good honest advice.
Al

[Tom W.]

You all are not alone in your distaste for thwart knees. Geoff Kerr, builder here in VT, uses stainless steel straps for his knees. See WB issue 185, page 41. He states that he has "deep suspicion that the knees are vestigal" in his plywood hull.

[Thorne]

That was what I meant to suggest -- knees being vestigial from the earlier all-solid-wood boat designs.

And by by "taking up space" I didn't mean to suggest that anyone would want to sit there. But they seem like they'd eat up space that could be used for storing oars or spars, not to mention small things like waterbottles or cameras.