Anybody following what's going on in France? [Archive]

Bob Smalser

10-30-2006, 08:06 AM

...France and Britain learned diametrically opposing lessons from their joint humilation by Eisenhower.

Britain decided that in future she would stick closely to the USA, and do nothing without consulting the USA and getting US approval first.

France came to precisely the opposite conclusion, withdrew from the military side of NATO and developed its independent nuclear deterrent.

There, I think, you have it...

Well put.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/28/opinion/28fromkin.html?pagewanted=1

...The Suez crisis was a divide in the history of the Middle East. It was the moment when America pushed out the Europeans and then tried to take their place — and the reverberations are still felt today. The road that led to Suez began in 1947, when the British Foreign Office notified the American Department of State that Britain could no longer afford to hold its positions in Greece and Turkey against pressure from Russia. Soon the United States was engaged in an effort to hold the line against Russia — there, but also all around the world....

...The Americans had been kept in the dark, and they took it personally. Eisenhower in particular was angered by British wartime colleagues who had lied and deceived him. “What does Anthony think he is doing?” Eisenhower demanded. “Why is he doing this to me?” He refused to listen to excuses, claiming that “nothing justified double-crossing the US....

...The Soviet leader, Nikita Khrushchev, grandstanded, threatening the Western imperialists. That enabled him to take credit for stopping the Europeans — even though it really was America that did it. The United States acted quietly but effectively. The Treasury Department threatened to withdraw support of the British currency unless the British Army left Egypt. Within 10 days, England would have collapsed financially. The British — and the invasion — stopped. To keep from being thought imperialists, the Eisenhower administration saved Nasser. The Suez crisis was over...

...Britain and France had gone to war in order to keep their empires; instead, they lost them. The United States had aimed to keep Russia out of the Middle East, but the Suez crisis, and Khrushchev’s rhetoric, brought the Russians in. Eisenhower and Dulles believed that by their actions at Suez they were showing the nonaligned nations that, unlike the British and French, Americans were not imperialists — but the third world remained unconvinced. And in Europe, skeptics claimed the episode showed that the Americans intended to steal the empires of Britain and France....

...Britain and France drew opposite conclusions from the Suez experience. Britain noted that it was dependent on the United States and would, for the most part, have to act accordingly and follow wherever America led. France decided that the United States would not protect France’s interests, and immediately, under Guy Mollet, began to build the atomic bomb — the result of American policy....

...Israel compromised itself through its partnership with European imperialism — providing evidence to enemies who had asserted all along that Israel was no more than a European imperialist itself. And its victory in the Sinai campaign — one of many dazzling triumphs — illustrated the paradox that the more Israel won on the battlefield, the further it got from achieving the peace that it sought...

Popeye

10-30-2006, 08:07 AM

france and people gets on my nerves

GregW

10-30-2006, 08:15 AM

France is still suffering from post-colonial dillusions. The French seem to be surprised that the simple fact of being a French citizen should not be good enough for anyone, why are people upset?
Fact of the matter is, if you are not a white frenchman, life can be difficult. France does has no equivalent to "affermative action", that despite all it's perceived shortcomings, has helped minorities at least have some hope of pulling themselves up.

uncas

10-30-2006, 08:28 AM

Blame DeGaul..ing

Never liked that guy....

Ya know, I sep. the French into two groups..politicians and Paris, and the rest of France.
Have bicycled through Paris... looking for the bastile.LOL. hated it.. Bicycled from Paris, down to the Med.. up to Nice and along the alps and back to Paris..on one trip.... Whole different kettle of fish once you leave Paris behind... The basic Frenchman is not a politician or a citizen of Paris luckliy..
Oh yes, before you ask.. I use the term citizen as opposed to resident for a reason. Paris would like to be another country.. LOL.

Sam F

10-30-2006, 09:07 AM

In response to a recent kidnapping of two French journalists (in Aug 2004) and Muslim help in gaining their release, Le Mond had this to say:

It is effectively without precedent for a Western country to benefit from the support and proclaimed solidarity of nearly all of the governments in the Middle East, as well as Muslim authorities whether moderate or extremist. This unity testifies that the leas of France will not have been in vain: against terrorism, policy can be, must be, more effective than war. It shows that France can make its singularity - the fact of being the first Muslim country of Europe - a peaceful weapon to surpass the logic of ideological and religious confrontation

PatCox

10-30-2006, 09:37 AM

They need another Roland.

uncas

10-30-2006, 09:41 AM

The horn doesn't work....

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-30-2006, 09:41 AM

I would like to see what "Le Monde" said en francais; I suspect an error in translation.

Sam F

10-30-2006, 09:47 AM

I would like to see what "Le Monde" said en francais; I suspect an error in translation.

Yes it sounds pretty amazing... but if you'd like, read my source for that quote:

While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer.
Mr. Bawer is a New Yorker who learned Dutch and moved to Holland and then learned Norwegian and now is a citizen of Norway.
His observations of "Islam's colonization of Europe" and Europe's "PC" reaction to it are rather unsettling - especially considering his background.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-30-2006, 09:51 AM

Sam F

10-30-2006, 10:09 AM

Thanks, Sam, but could you clarify a liitle further please? Link not working.

The French terms "en premier place, en premier lieu, en premier endroit, le pays le plus..de L'Europe...etc could all lend themselves to such a mis-translation.

Thanks in advance

Andrew

Sorry Andrew I don't have a link - it's an actual book.
As for mistranslation, there's not much chance of any fundamental error, since the French political establishment did exactly as Le Mond stated. The only possible mistranslation was in the part I put in bold and given the fact that the rest is true, that particular stupidity is all the more probable.
Btw, Mr. Bawer, is a fellow talented in languages. He’s fluent in Spanish, Dutch, Norwegian and speaks French well enough to get a Parisian cabbie to give him a ride.
Since I’m from Mississippi and have enough trouble with English as a second language ;), I find that pretty impressive.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-30-2006, 10:18 AM

Sam, I speak enough Mandarin Chinese to get a cabby to give me a ride, order a meal in a restuarant, make small talk and do routine shopping and I am acutely aware of the risks of mis-translation that such a level of fluency brings with it!

"Le Monde" is a very serious newspaper (no pictures!). It has a website. Let's try a little back translation

It is effectively without precedent for a Western country

En effet, il n'y a pas de precedent pour un pays de l'Occident..

or maybe:

Il est, en effet, sans precedent pour un pays de L'Occident..

and Google those and see what we get. A date would help.

GregW

10-30-2006, 10:22 AM

Le Monde is not your regular run of the mill newspaper. It prides itself on being the newspaper for "intellectuals", it isn't easy to read even for native french speakers. It's very very easy to get things messed up. I would like the see the original article myself before I commented on this guys take on it.

Sam F

10-30-2006, 10:33 AM

Sam, I speak enough Mandarin Chinese to get a cabby to give me a ride.

That's a "Chinese" cabby. A Parisian cabby is another matter entirely. The example Mr. Bawer recounts was that his partner hailed a cabbie while standing in the rain one evening. Unfortunately, Mr. Bawer didn't speak first - being good enough at French to pass for a native - as a result the cabbie drove off and left them in the rain.
They should have been in Mississippi.

The book is not footnoted so Aug. 2004 is the closest date I have.
You may be able to get closer with the information:
The two kidnapped journalists were Georges Malbrunot of Le Figero and Ouest-France and Christian Chesnot of Radio France International and they were taken hostage in Iraq. I assume the Le Mond editorial was printed when (or shortly after) their release was announced. The terrorist's demand was in this case that the French abandon their ban on headscarfs for Muslim school girls.

PatCox

10-30-2006, 10:50 AM

SamF, you gave a lengthy quote, supposedly from LeMonde, where did you get that quote? From this Bawer book? Or somewhere else? Does Bawer attribute the quote, citing the date it was published? Its rather hard to believe. Googling the phrase "france first moslem nation" produces many hits, almost all of which ask it as a question, whether this is something in the future for France if things continue this way, but none make the claim that france is today a moslem nation. It only has 4 million muslims out of 60 million total.

PatCox

10-30-2006, 10:52 AM

This is interesting, especially since it dates from June 2004: http://www.acpr.org.il/English-Nativ/04-issue/sobier-4.htm

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-30-2006, 10:56 AM

Well, what a surprise, its a subscription archive...

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/recherche_resultats/1,13-0,1-0,0.html

so we won't be getting to the bottom of this any time soon.

But, on a lighter note, you remind me of how I met my wife - I was standing under a cornice in a pre-typhoon torrential downpour in Hong Kong, trying to hail a cab, they being not inclined to stop for a gweilo, when one pulled over for a girl with long black hair just ahead of me - to my amazement, it pulled over, the door opened and I was asked - "Where are you going to?".:)

Sam F

10-30-2006, 11:24 AM

SamF, you gave a lengthy quote, supposedly from LeMonde, where did you get that quote? From this Bawer book?

if you'd like, read my source for that quote:

While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer.

I recommend that you read it.

Or somewhere else?

Nope.

Does Bawer attribute the quote, citing the date it was published?
I've given all the information I have.

Its rather hard to believe.

No. It's impossible to believe since it isn't true.

Googling the phrase "france first moslem nation" produces many hits, almost all of which ask it as a question, whether this is something in the future for France if things continue this way, but none make the claim that france is today a moslem nation. It only has 4 million muslims out of 60 million total.

Muslims in various parts of Europe are wearing T-shirts proclaiming the year they plan to take over demographically as well as politically.
Depending on the country, it varies from 2030 to 2070.
If current fertility and immigration trends continue those dates are fairly accurate predictions.
Perhaps some in the French intelligentsia have conceded that the battle is already over - anything being preferable to a renaissance of Christianity.

GregW

10-30-2006, 12:00 PM

If current fertility and immigration trends continue those dates are fairly accurate predictions

I have crystal ball that predicts a different outcome

ken_nyus

10-30-2006, 12:01 PM

Charles Martel must be crying in his grave.

An average of 100 cars are burned each night.

2,500 police officers injured so far this year.

ken_nyus

10-30-2006, 12:05 PM

"...In the first six months of 2006, some 21,000 cars were burned out and 2,882 attacks on police, fire and ambulance services were recorded..."

Reuters.

.

Don Olney

10-30-2006, 12:19 PM

They hate the cars! Stay away from the cars!

BrianW

10-30-2006, 12:43 PM

They hate the cars! Stay away from the cars!

"I was born a poor black child"...

Navin Johnson circa 1979

:D

PatCox

10-30-2006, 01:15 PM

A "renaissance of christianity," Samf? How does that happen, forced conversion of the infidel by the sword?

As I said elsewhere, the religious right is hellbent on returning us to the dark ages. The answer to Muslim intolerance is Christian intolerance. Check.

Popeye

10-30-2006, 01:22 PM

As I said elsewhere, the religious right is hellbent on returning us to the dark ages.

oops, i must have missed the memo
when exactly was it we left behind the dark ages?

Henning 4148

10-30-2006, 01:54 PM

Last year when the riot was up, I discussed the topic with french friends. It seems, that part of the problem is, that you can't get a good job in France if you are from the wrong end of town. Whereas in Germany, many immigrants and second or third generation immigrants have difficulty with the language, this is not the case in France, generally, the immigrants do speak a good French. But even if they do ok at school, it is very very difficult for them if they have a home address in the wrong area. So, because of living in the wrong area, they can't find good jobs, but to move into a better area, they would need the salary of a god job. Catch 22.

One of ths issues that was addresses in the French legislation after last years riots was, that addresses had to be covered when comparing job applicants to overcome this.

Also, France is an eliteist country. Many top positions in France are held by people from just two "schools" which have strong alumni networks. Below these two top "schools", there is a layer of very good "schools", then a layer of good "schools", then ... , all of them with strong networks, which makes it very difficult to work your way up if you didn't have a good start already.

Ethan

10-30-2006, 01:55 PM

Sweet, another frog thread. Been here, done this. Where's Pat? :)

PatCox

10-30-2006, 02:15 PM

Right here, I won't be in France again until May, looking forward to it very much. Its beautiful in Paris in May, the streets are filled with leftists handing the keys to the country over to muslims, the politicians are chasing jeaune filles around the parks, beautiful, really, beret-wearing radicals burning american flags on the corners, and the people, so ready to sneer and spit on you in their endearing french rudeness.

eleseus

10-30-2006, 02:48 PM

Yes it sounds pretty amazing... but if you'd like, read my source for that quote:

While Europe Slept by Bruce Bawer.
Mr. Bawer is a New Yorker who learned Dutch and moved to Holland and then learned Norwegian and now is a citizen of Norway.
His observations of "Islam's colonization of Europe" and Europe's "PC" reaction to it are rather unsettling - especially considering his background.

Excellent book, Sam--I read that in two sittings, it is so interesting. It is funny how few North Americans realize what trouble Europe, particularly France and England, are in with their vast Muslim, immigrant populations. I have been learning Arabic over the past few years and have taken to an unhealthy "hobby"--reading and occasionally posting on some of the MANY violent jihadi web forums. It is enough to know that a bunch of brainwashed,"pious", unemployed guys in the Middle East want us all dead--I can live with that, given our clumsiness in the region; it is wholly different to read hundreds and hundreds (thousands, really) of violent, West-loathing, non-muslim-hating diatribes written by muslims living here in the west, mainly the UK, Fwance and yes, the US of A.

As for Fwance, in particular, I shudder at the bleedingheart excuses of "they are oppressed, unemployed..."--Rubbish! If these people put what energy they expend hating and destroying into learning and building, things would be much different. These people have totally isolated themselves from everybody else and refuse to intergrate; why? Because they really, really do hate the west, christianity, capitalism. They have a deep jealousy of the west's relative success and are retarded by people within their religion who insist that islam cannot change at all from the day of its invention. Also, I think many less educated muslims in the west are generally resentful at the west for not being muslim--they are told their whole lives that Islam is perfect and the only true, final revelation of god and by us not believing it is a huge insult to their identity based largely upon a spectrum of "honor/shame".

Thanks for reading. I have been lurking here for a while. I am a self employed woodworker in NorthEast (coastal) Massachusetts. I have built things for boats before(hatches, skylights, combing, ladders, grating, interior stuff) but have never, yet, had the thrill of building a full boat. I wish to do so, soon, though. Something small but a challenge. Preferrably carvel-planked although I sure do respect a good lapstrake effort!

eleseus

10-30-2006, 02:49 PM

ken_nyus

10-30-2006, 03:01 PM

Excellent book, Sam--I read that in two sittings, it is so interesting. It is funny how few North Americans realize what trouble Europe, particularly France and England, are in with their vast Muslim, immigrant populations. I have been learning Arabic over the past few years and have taken to an unhealthy "hobby"--reading and occasionally posting on some of the MANY violent jihadi web forums. [...]

Hi eleseus,

I too, since 9/11, have been participating in many discussions on the muslim discussion boards, and what an eye opener it has been.

I recommend everyone who is interested in the future of their society to learn straight from the source, what these people think.

They are not shy at all.

eleseus

10-30-2006, 03:31 PM

Hi eleseus,

I too, since 9/11, have been participating in many discussions on the muslim discussion boards, and what an eye opener it has been.

I recommend everyone who is interested in the future of their society to learn straight from the source, what these people think.

They are not shy at all.

Hello Ken,
You have said it perfectly--why not learn straight from the source? I am glad I have done so, but at a slight cost to my happiness:) . I am no neocon or warmonger, I was against Iraq, and all of these usual caveats we employ, in honesty, to show that we are not racist, bloodhungry bigots;) But my views toward "why don't they like us" have changed quite radically since my "cultural dialogue" began. "They" are not shy and will tell you exactly why they hate "us"--a question I touched upon earlier and don't feel like going into again. Their opinions are all similair; at their most passive, we killed our own citizens on 9/11, Saddam was better than Bush(itler), our infidel presence is welcome nowhere in "Muslim Lands(tm)"... At their more hostile, any Westerner ("Crusader") is fair game, muslims must not befriend non-muslims, all jews are zionists and must die, the WTC office workers were fair game b/c they pay taxes thus contributed to the "war against muslims, worldwide"... There is no convincing someone who thinks this way that peace is better. Oh well.

Keith Wilson

10-30-2006, 03:38 PM

I too, since 9/11, have been participating in many discussions on the muslim discussion boards, and what an eye opener it has been.Is it necessary to read Arabic, or are there examples in English to which you could post links? Lurking, at least, would be interesting.

GregW

10-30-2006, 03:41 PM

I wonder how many of these "muslim discussion boards" especially the ones in English, are actually populated by muslims, as opposed to someone posing as a muslim in order to lure in wannabes?:)

PatCox

10-30-2006, 03:42 PM

Eleseus, I may be a liberal, but I am not a devote' of cultural relativism, nor political correctness. I do believe that immigrants into any society can be expected, have an obligation to, assimilate. If they hate the culture they enter into and refuse to assimilate, I believe it is appropriate to tell them to go home, and if they don't take the hint, make them go home.

I support the French banning the veil. As much as people tending to denigrate the french as a bunch of lefty intellectual multiculturists, I don't think that represents the government. The French have long had a tradition of "Frenchness" and I really don't think they will tolerate the muslims if the muslims keep it up; a LePen would be able to gain power if that happened, and then you'd see people like George Bush, put up to it by the Saudis who own him, decrying the wicked racist French.

That said, I think the issue of dealing with muslim immigrants has exactly zero to do with the "war on terror" and the war in Iraq. Two different problems. I think we'd do really well, on terrorism, if we simply had a poilicy of retaliating against those responsible and those who supported those responsible. Unfortunately, for political reasons we could not attack Saudi Arabia, and had to attack the pathetic joke that was Afghanistan, and then for purely political reasons (or personal; "he tried to kill my daddy") we attacked Iraq. And Saudi Arabia, which as about 90% responsible for funding and manning the 9/11 attacks, is immune.

GregW

10-30-2006, 03:48 PM

PatCox

10-30-2006, 03:54 PM

eleseus

10-30-2006, 04:13 PM

What happened in LA when Rodney King got the snot beat out of him by the cops? There were riots, and by no means the first riots in the USA. I think the case in France is somewhat analogous, since all this stuff started last year when the cops shots a couple of kids...the streets exploded.

Hey Greg,

I don't think the 2 kids got shot--they were running from the police and hid in a big electrical tranformer-hut and got zapped. Maybe they were shot, too?

There have been hundreds of "immigrant" attacks on Jews there in the past few years, as have there been very violent beatings and rapings of frenchwomen b/c they "had the balls to expose their face(not wear hijab) and by not so doing, asked for it". This "problem" runs way deeper than "Marcel Ibrahim couldn't get a job from the snobby elitist white Fwenchies"--it has a lot more to do with their hatred of the "decadent west" and our disregard for their particularly antiquated, extremely elitist religion, and it must really suck to hate our way of life this much but realize that their native lands are a total failure of humanity, economics,politics, and gender equality.

eleseus

10-30-2006, 04:44 PM

PatCox

Eleseus, I may be a liberal, but I am not a devote' of cultural relativism, nor political correctness. I do believe that immigrants into any society can be expected, have an obligation to, assimilate. If they hate the culture they enter into and refuse to assimilate, I believe it is appropriate to tell them to go home, and if they don't take the hint, make them go home.

I agree completely

I support the French banning the veil. As much as people tending to denigrate the french as a bunch of lefty intellectual multiculturists, I don't think that represents the government. The French have long had a tradition of "Frenchness" and I really don't think they will tolerate the muslims if the muslims keep it up; a LePen would be able to gain power if that happened, and then you'd see people like George Bush, put up to it by the Saudis who own him, decrying the wicked racist French.

I agree that the Fwench are not as "namby-pamby" as our stereotypes make them out to be. Their judicial system allows for far, far more "radical" measures than out Patriot Act, rendition flights, etc... BTW, a group of these wannabe jihadis in Fwance released a statement last week, saying, bluntly, that there will be "a lot of dead french people if Zarkozy is elected next year"--Speaking of the probable Chirac replacement, Nichlolas Zarkozy--a middle of the road candidate(NOT right-wing like LePen).

That said, I think the issue of dealing with muslim immigrants has exactly zero to do with the "war on terror" and the war in Iraq.
I agree with you if you mean "our muslim immigrants here in America". We have many nice, hardworking muslims here and any bad eggs there are we can more or less deal with them through police/legal system, not the military.
If you mean the UK, you are way wrong, Pat. Some of the hundreds of thousands of isolated, on-the-dole muslims there are very much connected to international jihadi/terror groups/plots. Many have gone from citizenship in the lap-of-luxury in the UK to exploding-themselves-at-lunchtime-at-the-souk-in-Iraq (or on a bus/tube in London). That is terrorism. The state has a monopoly on violence, nevermind the question this crime raises of national obligations and loyalty. Again, these are their citizens, acting in the name of god by killing people. They have a huge problem on their hands.

Two different problems. I think we'd do really well, on terrorism, if we simply had a poilicy of retaliating against those responsible and those who supported those responsible.
Tricky proposition. The Taliban would not hand over Bin Hidin'. He was most responsible (with KSM, bin al-Sheeb, Atef) and we held the Taliban accountable for fostering this nihilist (correctly, in my opinion). I agree thet, in an ideal world, the KSA would have been severly punished, too. But they were not knowingly fostering these men and their plans toward destroying America as was the Taliban. And we get a bit of our oil from them and Bush has our economy to look after as the #1 priority--I see nothing irrational about that. And yes, connecting Iraq to the war on terror before we invaded and rendered this connection a reality is stupid, but what is done is done.

Unfortunately, for political reasons we could not attack Saudi Arabia, and had to attack the pathetic joke that was Afghanistan, and then for purely political reasons (or personal; "he tried to kill my daddy") we attacked Iraq.
See above, and I don't think "he tried to kill Sr." is a real reason, especially since the new Woodward book makes clear that Sr. was very against his son doing what he did and told him so pre-invasion.

And Saudi Arabia, which as about 90% responsible for funding and manning the 9/11 attacks, is immune

Bin Hidin' funded the attacks. There are no clear links btw. the KSA government and 9/11, I think. ANd again, we have our economic wellbeing to consider. If we attacked KSA, the House of Saud would 100% definitely fall and the Wahabbi's that would take over certainly won't sell us oil.

eleseus

10-30-2006, 05:24 PM

By the way, Osama Bin laden himself has stated over and over again that the reason he attacked America is because we support Israel. I have always got the impression that its not PC to admit this here in America, because God forbid anyone question our special relationship with Israel (the one where we give and they take) or anything like that. Of course I also know they resent our meddling in the middle east in any capacity, but again, this "they hate us for our freedoms" has always struck me as blather. So what gives, do they hate us for our freedoms, or for supporting a rogue nuclear power that treats its muslim citizens as second class citizens?

I hope I didn't intone that "they hate us for our freedoms"--that is too simple and too "war slogan-ish". And you are very correct about Bin Hidin' using the Israel excuse from very early on. The pubisher Verso--a left wing outfit--had compiled all of Bin Laden's "press-releases", communiques, and interviews and published them this past year. My public library has a copy, maybe yours does, too. A fascinating read. He is not crazy, insofar as true-believers in Islam are sane. But he has zero doubt about the religious justifications he has been alotted/configured himself, and will kill anyone he wishes--millions if neccesary. But there are no more American troops in KSA, we gave him that one. In my opinion, he has zero ground to speak about Israel--it is none of his business. You seem resentful of Israel, which is 100% fine by me, but here we differ. I think they have a legitimate right to exist and that the Arabs are too proud to admit they were bested in the "great game" of colonialism and business(Israel really did purchase, legally, a lot of its land from Arabs who wanted the money more than their little fuedal sharecropping farms). The more angry and miserable the Palestinians remain, the better it is for the interests of many powerful people in the Arab world. Israel has offered peace and a state, the Palestinians have refused. So be it. War they will get. And I would beg you to look at some statistics regarding the relative living conditions of Israeli Arabs to Arabs of any other country in the Middle East--they are better educated, better housed, better employed, and have better health care than any of the whole Arab world--save for the very rich Arabs. So, no, they don't "treat their muslim citizens like 2nd class citizens"... that is very untrue. And I would sooner trust Israel with its 200+ nuclear warheads than any Arab/muslim regime in the world! Surely you would too?

bamamick

10-31-2006, 12:07 AM

I have read on this thread: that an American learned to speak Dutch! Oh, I know that you can read the words and understand them as written, but to PRONOUNCE them correctly? I am simply amazed. There are an awful lot of growling sounds in Dutch. Don't know what they mean but they must be important. I have heard people say that the children of the Netherlands have an easier time learning English than they do their native language.

As far as the riots in France go, it is a serious problem and it will probably get worse. The only way to stop the riots is to begin massive deportations until there are not enough rioters to cause a fuss, and that would mean a change of life for just about everyone in France.

One day all of these folks who have come to this country to do our manual labor for us are going to decide that they want better homes, cars, education for their kids, etc., and they are going to make some demands. If they decide to get violent about it things will get really, really nasty. What's happening in France can happen elsewhere. The Turkish population in Germany has very little to look forward to compared to a native German. Maybe their lives are better than they would be in Turkey, but in my experience they are totally segregated. I have never seen a mosque in Germany, for one thing, although I have been told by friends that the Turks worship in individual homes.

As much as we wish to believe otherwise, the world has not changed much over the last few decades, centuries, millenium. A few people have what the majority of people want and can not have. You push too hard and they will push back. People with little to look forward to in life have little to lose. It's not just France's problem.

Mickey Lake

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-31-2006, 03:15 AM

Quote:
That said, I think the issue of dealing with muslim immigrants has exactly zero to do with the "war on terror" and the war in Iraq.

I agree with you if you mean "our muslim immigrants here in America". We have many nice, hardworking muslims here and any bad eggs there are we can more or less deal with them through police/legal system, not the military.
If you mean the UK, you are way wrong, Pat. Some of the hundreds of thousands of isolated, on-the-dole muslims there are very much connected to international jihadi/terror groups/plots. Many have gone from citizenship in the lap-of-luxury in the UK to exploding-themselves-at-lunchtime-at-the-souk-in-Iraq (or on a bus/tube in London). That is terrorism. The state has a monopoly on violence, nevermind the question this crime raises of national obligations and loyalty. Again, these are their citizens, acting in the name of god by killing people. They have a huge problem on their hands.

Unquote

Perhaps I can chip in at this point. I've forgotten almost all the Arabic that I spoke as a child, having hardly used it for forty years, but I would like to draw attention to the most obvious difference between the Moslem population of the USA and that of Britain.

It's simply this - the Moslem citizens of the USA are for the most part either immigrants or descendants of immigrants who were middle class before they arrived in your country. In fact, you have tended to collect a fair proportion of the educated middle classes of most of the Middle East!

Unsurprisingly, whilst I understand that the proportion of Moslems is actually greater in your country than in mine, you don't have much of a problem.

The British Moslem population consists of a handful of middle class Arabs, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, and a great many more people whose background is best described as "peasant", whose forebears were encouraged to settle here by the managers of textile businesses in the 50's and 60's.

Now, these people often settled in the Northern towns where the textile mills were, and formed their own communities.

Mark what happens next. A man settles here, but wants a wife. He goes "home" to find one. She does not speak English, and is uneasy venturing far outdoors, let alone away from what I am going to have to call the ghetto. She is a good housewife and mother, and brings up a large family. As her children grow, she starts to worry about what may happen to her in old age. Her daughters will marry into other households, and some of them may have been "corrupted" by British state education. Her best bet is to encourage her sons to visit "home", find a suitable wife there and bring her back. The daughter-in-law, finding herself in an alien country, speaking little or no English, has little option but to become her mother in law's skivvy. Mother in law has solved her problem...but at what cost!

In order to reduce the risk of her daughters growing up "westernised", the housewife starts to agitate for her children to attend a proper Moslem school. Her boys are allowed to play cricket, because that is a game that was played "at home", but football and espescially rugby are alien sports, with much risk of corrupting influences.

Thus are self sustaining ghettoes created, with minimal contact with the rest of the nation.

I strongly suspect that the Arab population of France is somewhat similar in its make up.

martin schulz

10-31-2006, 03:38 AM

...and the people, so ready to sneer and spit on you in their endearing french rudeness.

Only if you are US american and that is forgivable judged by the way US americans are behaving in Paris.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-31-2006, 04:07 AM

Frankly, I'm puzzled by the anti-French tone that crops up so often here.

I have a very good American friend who lives in Paris with his Taiwanese wife. He works in a prominent French firm; he and his wife both chose to settle in France some years ago after living in Hong Kong for some years. He likes France; whilst he can offer some wry observations on the French way of life, as an American, he is not disparaging about it and he certainly does not suffer any hostility from his French colleagues and neighbours.

I've never felt any hostility towards me in France.

I don't get it.

martin schulz

10-31-2006, 04:46 AM

Frankly, I'm puzzled by the anti-French tone that crops up so often here.

I don't!
It's obviously that France represents everything the US would like to have, but will always be unable to get:

Taste, cultural archievements, great food, great wine, cool livestyle, gorgeous (un "silikonized") women...

Combined with french stubbornness in declining english as universal language and in dismissing US claims in world domination it is quite clear why so many US citizens abhor France, isn't it?

Phillip Allen

10-31-2006, 05:15 AM

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-31-2006, 05:35 AM

Advantage Philip, I think...

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

10-31-2006, 05:48 AM

I've always thought the peasants (left over after chopping off the heads of those who could read and write) were extremely disappointed in not being the "beacon" of light and truth the world gathered to.

A fascinating thought - but does not address the question

Frankly, I'm puzzled by the anti-French tone that crops up so often here.

But if'n we are about to digress, where might our eternal optimist look for such a "beacon" now?

Ardnamurchan?

LeeG

10-31-2006, 06:26 AM

I think the anti-French tone is a general resentment that another country could think of themselves as not needing the US.

We have so much, how could they not want it. We want it.

They hate us, because we're free.

Hell if I know, it comes across as an inferiority complex when it pops up.

Bob Smalser

10-31-2006, 09:06 AM

Frankly, I'm puzzled by the anti-French tone that crops up so often here.

Me too.

We'd still be perfectly happy isolationists were it not for German belligerence and English weakness.

PatCox

10-31-2006, 09:20 AM

Martin, my remarks about the French were wholly tongue in cheek, I have never thought the French, even in Paris, to be rude, they are just like New Yorkers except they speak a different language.

Americans tend to think any people who carry themselves with dignity are arrogant or rude.

When I return home from France, and find myself for the first time in some days surrounded by Americans, I am always struck by how drastic is the difference in the public face the two societies project. Americans don't seem to feel they exist unless they are loudly whining and complaining about something. A line of Americans waiting at an airport will be full of comedians tossing off wisecracks and making faces as they seek each other's attention and validation. I have never witnessed that behavior among others, though I have never attended a soccer game either.

Once I was waiting on free sunday in the line to climb the tower of Notre Dame. The line stretched 100 yards. There was an attendant at the entrance, who would let 4 or 5 people go every 2 or three minutes. I was next in line, when the attendant said something in French and left to go buy cigarrettes. There was no gate or barrier to prevent anyone from proceeding. The people in line simply waited quietly until he got back.

Here in the US I would have been trampled flat by the hordes.

I have come to think that its not simply an inferiority complex, its a special and specific kind of inferiority complex. An American's greatest fear is that someone might be making fun of them and they won't even know it.

Sam F

10-31-2006, 09:23 AM

I don't!
It's obviously that France represents everything the US would like to have, but will always be unable to get:

Taste, cultural archievements, great food, great wine, cool livestyle, gorgeous (un "silikonized") women...

Very funny!
I don't think the average American envies the French. I say that because I've seen not the slightest evidence for it. Americans certainly don't envy them for the items on your list – like culture? Not French 20th Century "culture"... Oh, you mean Sartre’s Being in Nothingness, right? :D
Believe it or not, I'd rather live in the Virginia mountains - a place where one can see many French and other European tourists - than anywhere in France.

Popeye

10-31-2006, 09:24 AM

the last time Canada had a dispute with France over access to fishing grounds , the French , bless 'em , warmed up an aircraft carrier, other than that they seem like decent folks

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

10-31-2006, 09:26 AM

Et les Quebecois?

Sam F

10-31-2006, 09:30 AM

Speaking of European tourists... I spoke to a nice English lady the other day who was seeing the sights. After driving through the trackless wastes of Virginia's Piedmont region, she observed that the houses were so far apart the the residents must feel scared and threatened by being so alone. My guess is that country houses average maybe a 1/4 mile separation, which is way too close for my tastes but there's no accounting for taste, is there? Anyway, in an attempt to look at the bright side to all this scary isolation I said:
"Oh that's OK. They aren't afraid. They all have guns."
I guess that was a controversial thing to say 'cause her eyes got big and she changed the subject right away! :)

Sam F

10-31-2006, 09:33 AM

I have come to think that its not simply an inferiority complex, its a special and specific kind of inferiority complex. An American's greatest fear is that someone might be making fun of them and they won't even know it.

Nah Pat that's a Liberal failing. Most Americans don't know if some forigner is making fun of them and most shockingly don't care in the least.

Popeye

10-31-2006, 09:35 AM

just to the south of Newfoundland there in a cute little island of about 6000 French Nationals , called St Pierre et Miqelon , it is wholley within Canadien territory eh

France has seen fit to send in a ship load of howitzers , missles and miscellaneous hardware , .. just in case

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-31-2006, 09:36 AM

Me too.

We'd still be perfectly happy isolationists were it not for German belligerence and English weakness.

Have you by any chance overlooked something, there, Bob?

Round about 08.00 local time, 7th December 1941?

Bob Smalser

10-31-2006, 09:37 AM

Have you by any chance overlooked something, there, Bob?

Round about 08.00 local time, 7th December 1941?

1914 came before 1941, right?

Popeye

10-31-2006, 09:41 AM

oh , did i mention on the day we got our little territorial tiff resolved , France (bless their cotton socks once again ) dispatched a fleet of 6 ground trawlers out of St Malo to the Grand Banks ..

PatCox

10-31-2006, 09:47 AM

False bravado, SamF. Which would be the other side of the coin, when it comes to the basic traits of the Americans as a people, insecurity coupled with belligerency, coupled with proud ignorance. "All's I needs to know is right here in the good book." Damn ferriners think they're smart.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt

10-31-2006, 10:04 AM

All of this gives the patriotic Englishman an ethical problem...

The Scots who have since the dawn of time been friendly with the French will happily agree with the heathen Americans that the French are as filthy and unpleasant a bunch of bar stewards as you could ever hope to avoid.

But the patriotic English have an equally long history of hating the French.... So the question:

Can an Englishman, with a clear consience, sing the praises of La Belle France" in the hope of inflicting American tourists on them, or not?

Andrew Craig-Bennett

10-31-2006, 10:49 AM

1914 came before 1941, right?

That would be April 6th, 1917*, to you, Bob. Oh, and you remembered to declare war on Austria-Hungary in December**

Not ratifying the Versailles Treaty and not joining the League of Nations were not, we take it, isolationist moves?

* Thanks for the dates, Wikipedia

**Bit like Berwick on Tweed, which declared (the Crimean) war on Russia in 1853 and was left off the peace treaty in 1856. The USSR signed a peace treaty with Berwick in 1966.

Popeye

10-31-2006, 12:43 PM

and then there's medling in domestic Canadian affairs , just because ...

have i left anything out , hang on while i get another pint

eleseus

10-31-2006, 04:42 PM

Andrew Craig-Bennett Quote:

Perhaps I can chip in at this point. I've forgotten almost all the Arabic that I spoke as a child, having hardly used it for forty years, but I would like to draw attention to the most obvious difference between the Moslem population of the USA and that of Britain.

It's simply this - the Moslem citizens of the USA are for the most part either immigrants or descendants of immigrants who were middle class before they arrived in your country. In fact, you have tended to collect a fair proportion of the educated middle classes of most of the Middle East!

Hello Andrew, I enjoyed reading your post.
I agree with your above point. I think the difference is also largely cultural--most Muslims in the UK are of Desi origin (India, Pak, Bengladesh); a group with a whole slew of cultural traditions mainly isolated to their native countries, not specifically to Islam (read: honor killings:rolleyes:) But the conundrum here is that other Desi immigrants to Britain of faith groups other than Islam(B'hai, Hindu, Bhuddist, Amahdi, Sikh) fare far better--educationally, economically--than their muslim counterparts. So this somewhat dulls the point of this being a "Desi thing". I think your raising the issue of "class" is going in the right direction. These are mostly poor people of very strict family bonds which limit most social mobility(and stifle education).

Unsurprisingly, whilst I understand that the proportion of Moslems is actually greater in your country than in mine, you don't have much of a problem.

The British Moslem population consists of a handful of middle class Arabs, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis, and a great many more people whose background is best described as "peasant", whose forebears were encouraged to settle here by the managers of textile businesses in the 50's and 60's.

Now, these people often settled in the Northern towns where the textile mills were, and formed their own communities.

Agreed.

Mark what happens next. A man settles here, but wants a wife. He goes "home" to find one. She does not speak English, and is uneasy venturing far outdoors, let alone away from what I am going to have to call the ghetto. She is a good housewife and mother, and brings up a large family. As her children grow, she starts to worry about what may happen to her in old age. Her daughters will marry into other households, and some of them may have been "corrupted" by British state education. Her best bet is to encourage her sons to visit "home", find a suitable wife there and bring her back. The daughter-in-law, finding herself in an alien country, speaking little or no English, has little option but to become her mother in law's skivvy. Mother in law has solved her problem...but at what cost!
Well said. There are very strong bonds between these muslims and their native countries. And they have no problems maintaining these bonds--at the expense of intergrating here and caring about the customs of their new country. This is the problem.

Bob Smalser

10-31-2006, 06:39 PM

We'd still be perfectly happy isolationists were it not for German belligerence and English weakness

That would be April 6th, 1917*, to you, Bob.

The German belligerence and English weakness that broke our isolationist heritage began in 1914, as you well know.

....…On August 3, 1914 Germany declared war on France and invaded Belgium on August 4….

…The German army had fought its way into a good defensive position inside France and had permanently incapacitated 230,000 more French and British troops than it had lost itself in the months of August and September…....

…On July 1, 1916, the first day of the Battle of the Somme, the British Army saw the bloodiest day in its history, suffering 57,470 casualties and 19,240 dead…

…Throughout 1915–17, the British Empire and France suffered far more casualties than Germany…

Bob Smalser

10-31-2006, 06:44 PM

There are very strong bonds between these muslims and their native countries. And they have no problems maintaining these bonds--at the expense of intergrating here and caring about the customs of their new country. This is the problem.

Why is that not so for the 3.5 million Arab-Americans settling in the USA?

When extremeists want to attack us on home ground, they have to get Wahabi whackos from Saudi or Algerians through Canada.

The majority of Arab Americans, around 62%, originate from the region of the Levant, comprising Lebanon, Syria, Palestine and Jordan. The remainder are made up of those from Iraq, Morocco and other Arab nations, which, although small in numbers, are present nonetheless. There are more than 3.5 million Arab-Americans in the United States according to The Arab American Institute. The largest Arab American populations are found in Michigan, New Jersey, and New York. The city that has the largest percentage of Arab Americans in its population is the city of Dearborn, Michigan. Other major communities include Paterson, New Jersey/Clifton, New Jersey; Brooklyn, New York; Miami, Florida; Los Angeles County, California and Bridgeview, Illinois.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Americans

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 03:53 AM

Bob, I think the answer may be that most Arab-Americans are comfortably middle class, well educated, and those who are first generation immigrants have either chosen to settle in the USA in furtherance of their careers and in order to give their children safety and a wider field of opportunity, or have settled in the USA as refugees from the unpleasant governments of their own countries.

Their mindset is radically different - those who are first generation immigrants were well attuned to your culture before they ever set foot in your country - the USA has had quite a big "footprint" in the Levant, through oil, through support for education, through military bases,. through films and television - for many years.

Consequently they feel "at home" in the States.

Take a peasant out of a village of mud huts and he is unlikely to respond in the same way.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 04:03 AM

The German belligerence and English weakness that broke our isolationist heritage began in 1914, as you well know.

Bob, the British Army in 1914 was somewhat akin to yours in 1939 - "contemptibly small" - 247,000 men was the entire force, most of which was deployed in India and Africa - pretty comparable with the 175,000 men of the US Army in 1939, in fact.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 04:19 AM

eleseus, thanks for your very kind remarks.

You have a good point on the "desi" origins of most of the British Moslem community, and as you say some of the cultural aspects of that are non-Moslem. But you are dead right when you point out that people of the same ethnic origins but of other faiths perform better.

The most upwardly-mobile faith group in Britain are not the Jews (they are the runners - up) or the Chinese (who come next) but the Hindus! Including of course almost the entire middle class of Uganda, 70,000 people, as shipped out by Idi Amin, thirty years ago.

The Sikhs illustrate the point nicely, by coming somewhere in the middle - British Sikhs are very often from poor rural backgrounds, but the Punjab is not as poor as Bangladesh or Pakistan. Sikhs integrate well into British society, but they do retain some of the cultural values that you mention and they have tended to stay together in geographical terms, around Heathrow Airport and in the Midlands.

PatCox

11-01-2006, 09:22 AM

I once caught a cab in Philadelphia, got to the museum and tried to pay, and the driver said "no charge, I give the first ride of each day as a gift to honor Allah." Refused all efforts to pay or tip.

I used to stop at a gas station owned by Sikhs (in New Jersey, it seems half the gas stations are owned by sikhs). I told him to fill it up, but then found I had left my wallet at home. He smiled and said "pay me next time."

Interesting episodes.

Popeye

11-01-2006, 09:34 AM

is France trying to ban Hallowe'en?

Bob Smalser

11-01-2006, 09:49 AM

Bob, I think the answer may be that most Arab-Americans are comfortably middle class, well educated...

Noted.

But the 9-11 hijackers were also well-educated and upper middle class. There's more to it than all that. An ideology that sees a future and an ideology that doesn't.

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 10:32 AM

That's also true, and indeed the ringleader of the British suicide bombers was a primary school teaching assistant. I don't want to over-simplify a complex issue, but I do think that social class and family values come into the equation.

ken_nyus

11-01-2006, 12:27 PM

Noted.

But the 9-11 hijackers were also well-educated and upper middle class. There's more to it than all that. An ideology that sees a future and an ideology that doesn't.

An OBL, a millionaire, his #2 sidekick Zawahiri, a Doctor.

These are not dumb poor people, they are educated and have wealth.

But what they also have is a mindset, that is completely alien to the west.

Their logic operates by different rules, the rules of the quran, the sunnah, the biography of Muhammed, and the rules of ijtihad (Islamic Jurispudence). To prove any point you have to quote from these sources, anything else is just the opinion of a man, and who needs the opinion of a man when you have the literal word of God in your hands?

When you converse with them you also have to remember that simple words like freedom, peace, justice, good, evil etc. have different meanings. You may think you are talking about the same things but you are not.

There is also the doctrine of taqiyya, allowing them to lie without sin, and the doctrine of kitman, allowing them to hold back information without sin (war is deception as Muhammed said).

An example of these two concepts is the often quoted verse from the quran 5:32 "...whosoever kills a man...it is as if he has killed all mankind..."

What they leave out is the phrase "...unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land...".

Now the important part of this left out phrase is "spreading mischief in the land".

Get them to define what this means to them. The classical interpetation of this is that anyone who is openly practising any belief system other than Islam (including atheism etc.) is spreading mischief in the land.

Just one example of how you have to get into their mindset to really understand what they are saying.

Sea Frog

11-01-2006, 12:28 PM

72nd,

My short answer would be sthg like industrial work force adjustment, starting in the roaring thirties with big manpower shortage.
Feel free to add any aggravating factor such as religion, ugly white man's burden (meaning hiring folk from the colonies first), edjumacational background, and above all the giddole globalizing economy that took said work off their hands once they'd firmly settled in here and had been granted full citizenship, and laugh.

Regards

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 12:47 PM

Yes, but, Ken - that's not where OBL and co started from. They start from an interest in Islamism, a political doctrine that developed in Egypt in the 1950s (and was swiftly outlawed there!) as a response to the perceived superiority of "Christendom" and the threat that it posed to Islam - the idea being that use of Western technology allied to Islamic values would create a superior world order - a new Caliphate.

The sophistry that you cite is really just sophistry - there are plenty of examples of that, as between westerners, right here in the Bilge!

OBL and co want to be able to show that black is white if that suits them - and so they can. (Christianity has quite a track record of this, too!)

At the root of it is the Islamic cultural cringe - which is enormous. Their Book tells them that they are Right - so how come they do so badly?

Andrew Craig-Bennett

11-01-2006, 12:50 PM

eleseus

11-01-2006, 01:30 PM

Andrew Craig-Bennett

Yes, but, Ken - that's not where OBL and co started from. They start from an interest in Islamism, a political doctrine that developed in Egypt in the 1950s (and was swiftly outlawed there!) as a response to the perceived superiority of "Christendom" and the threat that it posed to Islam - the idea being that use of Western technology allied to Islamic values would create a superior world order - a new Caliphate.
Acually OBL was brought up around more nationalist sentiment, or even "secular" sentiment (among his siblings and peers) than you would think. He became interested in his Islamic roots when he was a young man and has people like Azzam to thank for really pounding home an "Islamist" (Qutb-ish) message.
But I think the main thing I have learned by studying Islam is that there is not a far jump from being a Koran -abiding Muslim to what has become known as "Islamism"--a "political doctrine" of wishing to impose an Islamically-arbitrated state on everyone within a certain border(a border as ultimately ambitious as a "caliphate"). Any Muslim worth his salt will tell you that "Islam is a complete way of life--the political and the pious are both as equally important". This is the point most well-meaning Westerners miss-- most Muslims living here in the west would much prefer Shari'ah law(in all of its barbarity) to our secular law. Islam is not only lived as "an inner spiritual struggle" like most contemporary Western religions have been rendered unto. I think much modern muslim angst is derived from this political ambition--and the subsequent miserable failure of its fruition.

The sophistry that you cite is really just sophistry - there are plenty of examples of that, as between westerners, right here in the Bilge!

OBL and co want to be able to show that black is white if that suits them - and so they can. (Christianity has quite a track record of this, too!)
I have to agree with Ken on this one--this is more than just sophistry. OBL makes some--to most muslims--compelling arguments,"islamically verified/justified", regarding his percieved victimhood. He really does think that he has a religious mandate to kill as many of us as he is permitted by various edicts he has been given from some choice Sunni "scholars"(it is in this form that he has written permission to kill between 4 an 10 million Americans, BTW!)

At the root of it is the Islamic cultural cringe - which is enormous. Their Book tells them that they are Right - so how come they do so badly?
"Cultural cringe"? I may have an idea, but I am not sure what you mean. And your second question is the million dollar one. More than one answer but mainly: a literal reading and adherence to the Koran and ahadith--with all of their prohibitions and contradictions--does in no way foster a functional society. Since the majority of muslims worldwide are illiterate, it is the task of some village imam to explain this bunch of contradictory, 7th century pedantry to all of the peasants in his sphere. And he ain't no genius, either. :) And, well, he may just focus solely on the really awful, violent parts of the Koran--"Kill the infidel(unbeliever) wherever you find him"surah 9:5(there are nice parts too, but they are largely ignored, it seems!)

GregW

11-01-2006, 01:35 PM

....most Muslims living here in the west would much prefer Shari'ah law(in all of its barbarity) to our secular law

That you are going to have to prove, because as far as I can tell that statement is pure BS.

Bob Smalser

11-01-2006, 02:42 PM

That you are going to have to prove, because as far as I can tell that statement is pure BS.

You don't get much understanding of Islam from reading books...you have to see it practiced in its native culture.

Poll the 3.5 million Arab-Americans and you'll find they are no different in hopes and dreams than any other American....including the new arrivals. In fact, you probably have to look harder to find a whacko than among an equivalent population of Anglos.

Moreover, after almost 80 years of oilman and military presence in The Gulf, there's no shortage of good Arabists in the US....the current administration just didn't listen to any of them.

Islam has a long tradition of coexistence with "children of the book" in their own cultures, it's only the radical Wahabis preaching "jihad" as anything other than the personal struggle to serve God. Problem is, the Wahabis have oil money and have used those resources to colonize much of the lesser-developed Islamic world with their schools targeting the minds of the young. Where there's already an existing grudge, like in Pakistan, Algerian, Afghanistan, Yemen, Jordanian Palestinians and to a lesser extrent, Egypt, they are amazingly successful. In other countries like Bangladesh, Oman, and others, they aren't successful at all. Here lies the dilemma, and radical Wahabism grows with or without a conflict in Iraq. Don't believe for a minute the problems will stop when we leave Iraq.

eleseus

11-01-2006, 03:40 PM

quote=Bob Smalser

Poll the 3.5 million Arab-Americans and you'll find they are no different in hopes and dreams than any other American....including the new arrivals. In fact, you probably have to look harder to find a whacko than among an equivalent population of Anglos.

Hello Bob;
Interesting posts. But, by my experience, I would have to disagree.
This poll (taken at the 2006 INSA convention) is an interesting view into the exact, very prevalent opinions I have found among muslims. Full poll here: http://muslimsforasafeamerica.org/?p=48

A sample:

1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0
2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3
3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20
4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4
5. Did Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11?
YES - 117
NO - 139
UNDECIDED - 51
6. Did the U.S. government have advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and allow the attacks to occur?
YES - 200
NO - 70
UNDECIDED - 37
7. Did the U.S. government organize the 9/11 attacks?
YES - 106
NO - 151
UNDECIDED - 50
8. Are the tapes of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and threatening future attacks, real or fake?
REAL - 126
FAKE - 129
UNDECIDED - 52
9. Did Muslims commit the July 2005 train and bus bombings in London?
YES - 140
NO - 104
UNDECIDED - 63
10. The Canadian government says it stopped a plot by Canadian Muslims in June 2006 to attack targets in Canada. Do you believe there was a real plot by Muslims?
YES - 61
NO - 202
UNDECIDED - 44
11. The British government says it stopped a plot by British Muslims in August 2006 to bomb planes flying to America. Do you believe there was a real plot by Muslims?
YES - 66
NO - 191
UNDECIDED - 50
12. Is Al Qaeda a real organization, operated by Muslims who are trying to attack America?
YES - 149
NO - 109
UNDECIDED - 49
13. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American freedoms?
YES - 17
NO - 269
UNDECIDED - 21
14. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American involvement in the Muslim world?
YES - 228
NO - 54
UNDECIDED - 25

25. Was America justified in invading Afghanistan after 9/11?
YES - 51
NO - 248
UNDECIDED - 8

26. Is violence by Muslims against American civilians acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 23
NO - 274
UNDECIDED - 10
27. Is violence by Muslims against the American military overseas acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 134
NO - 154
UNDECIDED - 19
28. Is violence by Muslims against the American military in the U.S. acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 73
NO - 211
UNDECIDED - 23
29. Is violence by Muslims against American government officials acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 51
NO - 231
UNDECIDED - 25

Sam F

11-01-2006, 05:19 PM

5. Did Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11?
YES - 117
NO - 139
UNDECIDED - 51
6. Did the U.S. government have advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and allow the attacks to occur?
YES - 200
NO - 70
UNDECIDED - 37
7. Did the U.S. government organize the 9/11 attacks?
YES - 106
NO - 151
UNDECIDED - 50
8. Are the tapes of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and threatening future attacks, real or fake?
REAL - 126
FAKE - 129
UNDECIDED - 52

Amazing!

Sam F

11-01-2006, 05:21 PM

Excellent book, Sam--I read that in two sittings, it is so interesting.

Yes it was interesting but I found it quite depressing too - and hard to finish. Not the author's fault of course

eleseus

11-01-2006, 06:28 PM

Here is an excelllent--imho--excerpt of and exerpt; From a bit of a really good writer named Mark Steyn's new book, particularly relevant to our discussion of muslims in europe...
Th whole excerpt is here(Maclean's):
http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/article.jsp?content=20061023_134898_134898 which deals with the scary demographic shifts to come in the next 50 years.

You may vaguely remember seeing some flaming cars on the evening news toward the end of 2005. Something going on in France, apparently. Something to do with -- what's the word? -- "youths." When I pointed out the media's strange reluctance to use the M-word vis-à-vis the rioting "youths," I received a ton of emails arguing there's no Islamist component, they're not the madrasa crowd, they may be Muslim but they're secular and Westernized and into drugs and rap and meaningless sex with no emotional commitment, and rioting and looting and torching and trashing, just like any normal healthy Western teenagers. These guys have economic concerns, it's the lack of jobs, it's conditions peculiar to France, etc. As one correspondent wrote, "You right-wing ****-for-brains think everything's about jihad."
Actually, I don't think everything's about jihad. But I do think, as I said, that a good 90 per cent of everything's about demography. Take that media characterization of those French rioters: "youths." What's the salient point about youths? They're youthful. Very few octogenarians want to go torching Renaults every night. It's not easy lobbing a Molotov cocktail into a police station and then hobbling back with your walker across the street before the searing heat of the explosion melts your hip replacement. Civil disobedience is a young man's game.
In June 2006, a 54-year-old Flemish train conductor called Guido Demoor got on the Number 23 bus in Antwerp to go to work. Six -- what's that word again? -- "youths" boarded the bus and commenced intimidating the other riders. There were some 40 passengers aboard. But the "youths" were youthful and the other passengers less so. Nonetheless, Mr. Demoor asked the lads to cut it out and so they turned on him, thumping and kicking him. Of those 40 other passengers, none intervened to help the man under attack. Instead, at the next stop, 30 of the 40 scrammed, leaving Mr. Demoor to be beaten to death. Three "youths" were arrested, and proved to be -- quelle surprise! -- of Moroccan origin. The ringleader escaped and, despite police assurances of complete confidentiality, of those 40 passengers only four came forward to speak to investigators. "You see what happens if you intervene," a fellow rail worker told the Belgian newspaper De Morgen. "If Guido had not opened his mouth he would still be alive."
No, he wouldn't. He would be as dead as those 40 passengers are, as the Belgian state is, keeping his head down, trying not to make eye contact, cowering behind his newspaper in the corner seat and hoping just to be left alone. What future in "their" country do Mr. Demoor's two children have? My mother and grandparents came from Sint-Niklaas, a town I remember well from many childhood visits. When we stayed with great-aunts and other relatives, the upstairs floors of the row houses had no bathrooms, just chamber pots. My sister and I were left to mooch around cobbled streets with our little cousin for hours on end, wandering aimlessly past smoke-wreathed bars and cafes, occasionally buying frites with mayonnaise. With hindsight it seemed as parochially Flemish as could be imagined. Not anymore. The week before Mr. Demoor was murdered in plain sight, bus drivers in Sint-Niklaas walked off the job to protest the thuggery of the -- here it comes again -- "youths." In little more than a generation, a town has been transformed.
Of the ethnic Belgian population, some 17 per cent are under 18 years old. Of the country's Turkish and Moroccan population, 35 per cent are under 18 years old. The "youths" get ever more numerous, the non-youths get older. To avoid the ruthless arithmetic posited by Benjamin Franklin, it is necessary for those "youths" to feel more Belgian. Is that likely? Colonel Gadhafi doesn't think so:
There are signs that Allah will grant Islam victory in Europe -- without swords, without guns, without conquests. The fifty million Muslims of Europe will turn it into a Muslim continent within a few decades.
On Sept. 11, 2001, the American mainland was attacked for the first time since the War of 1812. The perpetrators were foreign -- Saudis and Egyptians. Since 9/11, Europe has seen the London Tube bombings, the French riots, Dutch murders of nationalist politicians. The perpetrators are their own citizens -- British subjects, citoyens de la République française. In Linz, Austria, Muslims are demanding that all female teachers, believers or infidels, wear head scarves in class. The Muslim Council of Britain wants Holocaust Day abolished because it focuses "only" on the Nazis' (alleged) Holocaust of the Jews and not the Israelis' ongoing Holocaust of the Palestinians.
How does the state react? In Seville, King Ferdinand III is no longer patron saint of the annual fiesta because his splendid record in fighting for Spanish independence from the Moors was felt to be insensitive to Muslims. In London, a judge agreed to the removal of Jews and Hindus from a trial jury because the Muslim defendant's counsel argued he couldn't get a fair verdict from them. The Church of England is considering removing St. George as the country's patron saint on the grounds that, according to various Anglican clergy, he's too "militaristic" and "offensive to Muslims." They wish to replace him with St. Alban, and replace St. George's cross on the revamped Union Flag, which would instead show St. Alban's cross as a thin yellow streak.
In a few years, as millions of Muslim teenagers are entering their voting booths, some European countries will not be living formally under sharia, but -- as much as parts of Nigeria, they will have reached an accommodation with their radicalized Islamic compatriots, who like many intolerant types are expert at exploiting the "tolerance" of pluralist societies. In other Continental countries, things are likely to play out in more traditional fashion, though without a significantly different ending. Wherever one's sympathies lie on Islam's multiple battle fronts the fact is the jihad has held out a long time against very tough enemies. If you're not shy about taking on the Israelis and Russians, why wouldn't you fancy your chances against the Belgians and Spaniards?
"We're the ones who will change you," the Norwegian imam Mullah Krekar told the Oslo newspaper Dagbladet in 2006. "Just look at the development within Europe, where the number of Muslims is expanding like mosquitoes. Every Western woman in the EU is producing an average of 1.4 children. Every Muslim woman in the same countries is producing 3.5 children." As he summed it up: "Our way of thinking will prove more powerful than yours."
Reprinted by permission of Regnery Publishing from America Alone © 2006 by Mark Steyn

Bob Smalser

11-01-2006, 06:34 PM

This poll (taken at the 2006 INSA convention) is an interesting view into the exact, very prevalent opinions I have found among muslims.

Yes it was interesting but I found it quite depressing too....

Interesting, but the ignorance displayed tracks with many polls of Anglos, too.

Not to be complacent gents, but a poll of 300 activists attending a convention in no way represents the views of 3.5 million Arab-Amewricans.

Lucky Luke

11-01-2006, 09:41 PM

In that case at least they would be able to speak a 2nd language beside french ;)
Ja!:p

Sam F

11-03-2006, 06:49 PM

Yes it was interesting but I found it quite depressing too....

Interesting, but the ignorance displayed tracks with many polls of Anglos, too.

Bob, I was referring to the book While Europe Slept
It's author, a US native and now a Norwegian citizen, is most certainly not ignorant.

Sam F

11-03-2006, 06:53 PM

Meanwhile British Muslims are doing this sort of thing:

http://www.actioninengland.gb.com/muslim_atrocities/london6.jpg

and

http://www.actioninengland.gb.com/muslim_atrocities/london7.jpg

and

http://www.actioninengland.gb.com/muslim_atrocities/London9.jpg

But this one's special

http://www.actioninengland.gb.com/muslim_atrocities/Freedom_go_to_hell.jpg

eleseus

11-03-2006, 07:01 PM

Speaking of those pictures, Read this, Sam:

Briton called for "new 9/11"
03/11/2006 18:03

LONDON (Reuters) - A British Muslim on trial for inciting murder at a demonstration outside the Danish embassy in London had called for "another 9/11" across Europe, prosecutors said on Friday.

Web designer Mizanur Rahman, 23, denies charges of inciting murder and racial hatred during demonstrations against the publication of political cartoons in a Danish newspaper that many Muslims considered insulting to Islam and Prophet Mohammad
"What he said was this: ’Oh Allah, we want to see another 9/11 in Iraq, another 9/11 in Denmark, another 9/11 in Spain, in France, all over Europe. Oh Allah, destroy all of them, Amen,’" Perry said, describing the remarks as a reference to the September 11 2001 attacks in the United States that killed 3,000 people.

"Bomb, bomb France. Bomb, bomb France. Nuke, nuke France. Nuke, nuke France,’" he quoted him as saying, adding that the reference to France may have been prompted by a French newspaper reprinting the Danish cartoons.

Rahman also called for "indiscriminate killing" of British troops in Iraq, Perry said. He quoted from Rahman’s speech:

"’We don’t want to see them in Baghdad or in Iraq any more. We want to see them coming home in body bags. We want to see their blood running in the streets of Baghdad and Fallujah.

"We want to see the Mujahideen shoot down their planes like the way they shoot down birds. We want to see their tanks burnt, just like we burn their flags.’"

The speech went on: "We want to see their freedoms destroyed. We want to see all of them removed from Muslim land. Oh, Allah don’t leave any of them alive in Iraq, don’t leave any of them alive in Afghanistan, don’t leave any of them standing in France."

The trial continues.

http://www.tiscali.co.uk/news/newswi..._template.html (http://www.tiscali.co.uk/news/newswire.php/news/reuters/2006/11/03/topnews/briton-called-for-34new-9/1134.html&template=/news/feeds/story_template.html)