Topic: Penbo Boat on E-Bay

[Trawling]

Hi, All. I'm brand new here and glad to be aboard! Please bare with me as I'm new to forums and will probably screw up from time to time.
redface.gif
I found this forum from doing a search on Penbo trawlers. Someone posted about a Penbo on Ebay.... well, I'm the guy that's bringing her home to be 'home'.
I was very fortunate to have grown up on the North Shore of Long Island, enjoying my first sail at the age of 3 1/2 months. I grew up playing (and working) in (real) boatyards, crewed on countless ships (mostly my Dad's), and had the unprecedented opportunity of watching 12 meters practice for the America's Cup on Long Island Sound for many years. I would still be sailing but due to an accident can no longer do so. My life long dream of blue water cruising at retirement has been changed, but the ship is far from sunk.
So much for a brief(?) history. tongue.gif

Unfortunately my Dad just passed last year, I know he would have loved this boat, even though it isn't sail. He was an excellant woodworker, and would have admired the craftmenship. However, he was not what one would call a mentor, and never taught me the many skills he had. I taught myself the wrench, and was damn good at it, but I have always felt there could be nothing like creating with wood. In short, I know sh-t about carpentry, other than common sense, so I have come here to pick your brains, listen to your thoughts, and hopefully learn much.
If anyone looked at the dry(?) rot in the auctions pictures (sorry I don't have the link that was posted but will find it again if needed), please give me your input as to what you would do to (a) be able to safely navigate her down to the Boca Raton area, and (b)then repair her over time properly without having to hopefully tear her apart.
I'm in this for the long term, she's a boat worth preserving and will be my home for some time. Money is tight, but I can put some aside monthly to do what needs to be done (unless we're talking a whole lot of money!).
She was just repacked and painted, no leaks, etc., it's just that damn rot in those few places.
Thanks for any and all help.

[Katherine]

Get the boat surveyed. It can be nerve wracking, but a good surveyor will tell you everything you need to know about your boat but were afraid to ask. Most surveyors charge by the foot, usually in the $15-20$/foot range.

[jlapratt]

Welcome to the forum! First off, you will have to provide picture, lots and lots of pictures. Secon, you will get a lot of different opinions; but if you are patient, you can work through the comments and get some excellent advice. Third, be prepared to do the right repairs if you want hte boat to last a long time. Shortcuts have no place here on the forum if you want the best advice. Trying to do lest than the correct repair will result in the most knowledgable shrugging you off.

Hope it helps.

Jeff

[Norske3]

Welcome aboard...can you post a pic of the Penbo?

[Trawling]

Thanks for your responses. Here was the shortcut posted by schlaboatnic on 8/17. http://tinyurl.com/9aybb
The pictures are there. I have talked to the previous owner, who has no reason to be dishonest, as he is no longer the owner, the non-profit is. Here's a brief history;

The original owners lived aboard, home port was St. James, Fl. The boat was extensively cruised, mostly the Bahama's, Cayman, Mexico, etc. They had her for 20 years.

She was bought from them by this last owner. She was cruised mostly in the Great Lakes and northern waters, but has also been around the loop a few times and down to the Gulf and back up. She was hauled out in the winters they stayed up north and maintened as necessary. She was last done this past winter.

You can tell this man has a lot of pride about this boat when you speak to him. He has tried to keep her as original as possible, which is visible by all the bronze on her. He is also a hands on owner, in that he learned all that was possible about maintaining wood boats. He went to Maine and took a wood boat course (can't think of the name right now, but I recognized it immediately when he mentioned it). He also said he learned much from Wooden Boat magazine, of which he is giving me several years of (certainly that says something! ;) ).

I was very frank with him in my questions, and I felt his answers were truthful. Bottom line, he said he would not hesitate for a moment to bring his family down here in her, but was also honest about not taking her ocean bound or purposely in heavy sea's until those frames are attended. He felt she would probably do fine, but it wasn't worth the risk.

He said the boat has never taken any water through the hull, or anywhere else. He loves woodworking, so has kept up on any repairs before they caused a problem. I think that's evident from the pictures.

I do indeed intend to get get a non-destructive survey done, but time and money restrictions may not make it possible to do up in Maryland. My mind is pretty well made up to get her, especially since the way the purchase is set up she is affordable for me. Living on her will also give me the opportunity to put money aside to do necessary repairs, and I intend to educate myself on carpentry so I can do as much myself as I'm physicaly able. Luckily I'm a fast learner. :D

There are many extenuating circumstances involved which I'm not going to drag on about. The bottom line is this: if you had the opportunity to get this boat, were on a fixed income, had the available cash to purchse her, intended her for an immediate live aboard, and had all the time in the world to work on her; would you do it?

I think in life there are times when we must go with our gut feeling, not throwing logic out the window, but also not letting the what if's remove all possabilities of success.

It seems everything has fallen unexplainbly into place (ie: the way I found the boat, how I found a dock, personal circumstances in my life, etc.) Perhaps I should have chosen Philosopher for my name here :cool: , but I am a believer that some things are just meant to be.

[WoodenBNut]

Trawler
Yes, I saw your trawler a few weeks ago on eBay. It will make a very nice live aboard. Yep, a professional survey is the way to go when you can have it done. It appears that there is some significant rot in some of the keel & near by framing in the exposed area that photos were taken. The surveyor will note all that too and probably recommend replacement of any rotted secion of keel and also any deterioated framing and possible planking. You probably will want to seek professional wooden boat repair people to do these repairs to keel,framing and any planking as this is a big job and is best done by someone with experience in this area. If you are not going to have these repairs to the keel, framing done immediately, maybe you could do some temporary things (I won't call them fixes - cause they are not fixes by any stretch of the immagination). Like cleaning up the areas of rot on the keel and if it is dry, applying CPES (clear penetrating epoxy sealer) or "rot fix" to those areas. This may slow down the rot a little while you are waiting for the real/correct fix(replacement of the affected rotted areas). But at least you could live aboard her.
Woooops! - Then there is the boat insurance thing. Do you plan to insure her? Most (all I know) boat insurance companies won't give you insurance unless a relatively current survey has been done and is provided to them. I don't think they will give you insurance with tha defective roted areas in the structure. So you won't get insurance and will be self insured. Well that's Ok because you say you can self insure it, but what if she sinks (for any reason). Someone (Coast Guard, etc) is going to require the responsible party (you) to have her raised and taken away and any fuel/oil spil cleaned up (read a lot of $$$). That is where I am really concerned about boat insurance policies -- not so much as paying to repair the boat but to make sure that I am covered in the event the boat sinks and damage to the waterways (oil/fuel spills - cleanup and $$$ it takes to do that).
Well, it sure does look like it will be a nice boat and live aboard, but really check out the insurance thing carefully.

[Trawling]

Yes, the insurance is my major concern, too. I understand I can get a liability policy without any survey. Whether or not that covers spills, I'm still investigating.

It has been suggested to me by several sources that if you join the Power Squardon, they will insure just about anything, no questions asked. I intend on joining them and Boat/U.S. anyway (I know the cost for Boat/U.S. and wouldn't think of heading down without tow coverage), but don't know the cost of the Power Squardon. Although my Dad always had sail, he was a life-long member. God, how I used to look forward to the yearly Clam Bake at Eatons Neck, L.I. every year. Never saw so many lobsters in one place..... smile.gif

My thought, too, was to use 'Git-Rot' or or of those products temporarily. Any addition of strength certainly couldn't hurt, could it?

[WoodenBNut]

Trawling -
Yes, you bring back old memories. I used to live on Long Island Sound (Port Chester, NY) about 25 years ago and did quite a bit of power boating on the Long Island Sound area. Had a 35' John Alden flying bridge cruiser at that time. We docked her near Playland in Rye, NY on the sound (beautiful spot).
Well, I don't think you can really do any damage with the CPES. You'll just need to get the affected rotted areas as clean & dry as you can before applying the CPES. It may be beneficial to heat the affected areas with a hot air heat gun before applying the CPES as that will incease the adsorption of the CPES into the rotted wood areas. I would just keep applying the CPES until the wood stops adsorbing it(at least 3 coats or more). The CPES is supposed to kill rot fungus/spores and the hope is that it is adsorbed far enough into the affected area to get most of the rot spores (that's the theory anyway - worth a shot). *see www.rotdoctor.com (http://www.rotdoctor.com) for more info. You can also buy Smith's CPES at www.jamestowndistributors.com (http://www.jamestowndistributors.com) (I buy a lot of wooden boat supplies there). *** Get some of the plastic epoxy "injectors" too as they are a great help in getting the CPES where you need to get it in tight small places(jamestown distributors).) *** The overall objective in doing this is to try to slow down the rot and kill as may rot spores as possible.

[Trawling]

Thanks for the advice. I was wondering if using a nice, big syringe might help, too. I have one I use for my hobbies. Can't think getting it down in deep wouldn't hurt.

I remember Rye Beach & Playland well! We, too, used to moor there often. Going on the roller-coaster used to scare the hell out of me as a kid. Especially the part where it hung out over the water!

[WoodenBNut]

Yes, those syringes are a great help in getting CPES & Epoxy into tight places. I use the plastic kind that JamesTownDistributors sell. You can clean them with Acetone and reuse them. They are also great for filling screw holes with epoxy(I thicken the epoxy with silica powder 1st) for redrilling and rescrewing. Also, you can thin regular epoxies with alcohol & acetone and use that thinned epoxy too like a CPES on rotted wood. I haven't tried that and have only used Smith's CPES (it is a good product).

[Trawling]

So you would recommend Smith's based on your experience. I know many here don't like any of these 'rot killers', I've read previous post's about everything from anti-freeze on up.

Please, if any of you have had some personal experience with epoxies (or any other thing out there), I would appreciate your input. This is a temporary fix until I can get it done properly, so I'm just looking for the strongest and longest lasting way for now. :confused:

Thanks!

[WoodenBNut]

Trawling -
Well, I have used Smith's CPES and from what I here from others that have used similar CPES type of products, Smith's is very good. I have used Smith's CPES & System 3's Rot Fix products. Both are good in that area. System 3's Rot Fix product seems to be a little thicker that the Smith's CPES. So, I am not sure if the Rot Fix gets as far down into the wood as the Smith's CPES? I really haven't done any valid tests of the 2 products ---- maybe you should buy a small quantity of each and cut some small sample boards and soak the ends of the test boards with each product and just see how far down into the wood end grain/cells that each product penetrates. *** You want to use the product that penetrates the furthest/deepest into the wood (in you tests, try penetration on the end grain and also a test with penetration not on the end grain. Make the tests with the same wood that you will be treating in your boat (I think you said the keel and frames were White Oak? ) *** Someone may have already done some of these tests and written it up?? Do a search on the Wooden Boat forum and Interent web to see if you can come up with something. I'll do the same. It would sure be valuable to me because I will soon be treating a 1964 Chris Craft Sea Skiff 35' plywood deck with CPES before I cover it with Dynel & Epoxy . I'll let you know if I find any info on the CPES wood penetration tests/results.

[Trawling]

WoodenBNut
If you go to http://www.rotdoctor.com/zine/rblk04horn.html
it links into their home page in which they did just such tests. Of course, this was their tests, but I can't find them being disputed anywhere. Seems they've held their own Tug together for quite some time using it.
I wrote them, and recieved a response the next day. Seem like helpful folks, try giving them a shout.

[Whiffle English]

I am a big fan of Penbo Trawlers and a bit jealous that I didn't check ebay! But I am in the middle of building my own smaller trawler type and so not really in a position to be biddling on such a wonderful boat, anyway. But let me know if you ever choose to sell it! Good luck with the project; you have a real treasure that will serve you wonderfully well once all these fixable problems are fixed!

[Trawling]

Thank you, English, I'm looking forward to many years of taking care of her and vise versa.

I'm just having difficulty getting insurance lined up. Being in Fl right now isn't much help either, although she won't be down here until around the end of October (and only if weather is all clear).

Florida in the winter, Long Island in the summer... What more could a man ask for? smile.gif

[pipefitter]

The fuel to get it down here. I just tried to get a minimal amount of fuel for my car and I couldnt find any close by. I didnt join the helter skelter lines at the pumps so it looks like I will be putting my lawnmower gas in my car. Dang...this means I cant cut my yard smile.gif . Welcome to Tampa Trawler. Very nice boat.Maybe I will see it around sometime and the best of luck with the restoration/repairs.Trawlers are really the best of all the boat worlds.

[Trawling]

Pipefitter, where about's in the area are you? I won't be on the West coast when I bring her down, I'll be East, in Deerfield Beach on a wide canal off the ICW. Hopefully a little more fuel over there. Plus she uses diesel.

I gassed my truck up Weds night, the prices had already gone up 50+ cents from the morning. A station I had seen in the AM had regular for $2.55, so that's where I headed. They were sold out of it and middle grade. So I got premium @ $2.79, which was still a great deal, as regular was more everywhere else. My truck seems to like it, too. I was very fortunate.

[pipefitter]

I am in Tampa over by Lowry Park a few blocks up from the Hillsborough River.I have been here since 80 but lived in FL since 71. I dont really need the gas today as I am just going to sand and paint my boat some more being as the rain is staying away till later maybe.

Ok,I saw under your posts that you were in Tampa so I had assumed thats where you were going to be.The east coast is where most the hurricanes hit.I would think it would be even harder to get insurance for over there.

[Trawling]

I am currently in Largo, but the dock I've procured is in Deerfield. Finding any slip space, let alone live aboard over here is impossible or unaffordable. So, off to the East I go.
I was very lucky though, brand new dock behind a private residence which includes use of a swimming pool and yard. REALLY nice folks, too. Well protected canal, they had absolutely no problems with the storm.

That said however, I have NO intentions of being anywhere south in the summer. I will be in a harbor off Long Island Sound. Plus I plan to do much cruising and live mostly off the hook,once everything is as I want it. I can go roughly 4-5 knots per gallon, so that's still a lot of cruising in exchange for any kind of rent.

I once took my bowrider up the Hillsborough...like another world, especially the futher up you go. I know the area your in, very, very beautiful. I really enjoyed it.

[pipefitter]

I lived like that before but it wasn't intentional. Still the best years I can remember.I guess is half of why so little still seems like alot. It sounds like a good way to go.
Do the dock owners get to use your boat? smile.gif

[Trawling]

HELL NO!!!!! :eek:

[pipefitter]

Well,atleast they can use your pool too,tho. Sounds fair to me smile.gif

[Trawling]

My boat smile.gif , our pool (really theirs), our Yard (ditto). Like I said, REALLY lucky ;) !

[Whiffle English]

I may have missed it, but WoodenBoat had a wonderful article on penbo trawlers a few years ago. I tried looking it up in the online index, but didn't find it (never do find things using that index). If you like I'll go out to the shop and track it down. Great pictures, good history. Enjoy your boat!

[Trawling]

Yes, English, I would appreciate that very much. I've heard a lot about that issue, but I couldn't find it either.
A fellow down at the Mad Beach Marina had a 1969 version of my boat. It was for sale in ebay, so I went down to look at her. He seemed to think she was the one featured in the article.
I obviously didn't buy the boat (she really needs a lot of work). Come to think of it, you said you'd like a Penbo. If you'd like the details let me know. I don't think he sold it on ebay. He's very motivated, though, and someone with more skill than I could make her well again.
I'll enjoy my boat very much as soon as I can get insurance on her. I'm still trying!

[Whiffle English]

I found the WoodenBoat article on Penbo; it was in number 161, July/August 2001. As I was building a Handy Billy at the time, I saw the article many times...as it was in the same issue as the last of a three part series on building a Handy Billy.
I think you will be delighted by the article, but more importantly, be inspired to do what is required to get the boat back to Bristol condition. From the description of the boat's needs, I think you have a very doable project. Good Luck! And when I'm done building my long range cruiser (Boat Design Quaterly #27), I'll be on the lookout for something like your Pembo!

[Trawling]

Thank you, English! smile.gif

[pipefitter]

The thing that really stinks about insurance on that boat if you got a deal on it is what if you pay it all those years and nothing happens? You have paid for your boat again or it is like it is never paid off. Almost worth a gamble to stick those payments in your own savings acct and earning your own interest on the $ and if after 5 years nothing has happened then you would have a perpetual maintenence fund for your boat.

[Trawling]

I fully agree, however, I bought this from a non-profit. In order for the donar to get his rather large tax break, it has to be done on a charter/purchase. 2 yrs charter @ 75% of agreed price, and the remaining 25% at the end. I have no problem with that except..... I've just recieved the paperwork and in going over it am not happy with the insurance requests, nor the way it is structured. Having been a business manager for many years and having extensive knowledge of leases/charters, this is not a good charter agreement. It would be fine if it were the standard case where the end residual (buyout) were the larger number, but this is reversed. The protection to the non-profit should only be the amount due at the end of the term. This would make both insuring, and fairness, far easier.
Alas, there may be another fly in the ointment.

[pipefitter]

Well ,good luck with all that.Hope it works out for all.

[Whiffle English]

I note on the building&repair forum a notice that WoodenBoat is holding a class in SF on boat repair and it needs three more students if it is going to fly. Ellis Rowe is the instructor and a good one by all reports. Might be worth a flight out to SF and the tuition/board to take the course. I also note that the current issue of WB has a wonderful article on frame and floor repair.
Bteween your insurance problems and the work you will need to do or have done, you have a full plate, I know, but you have a real treasure there and I hope you do not get discouraged! I know it is a very doable projuct...Good luck!

[Trawling]

How I wish I could go out there (love S.F.), but alas, funds prohibit it. The next 2 years everything will be going into Salty (my nickname for her). I will have to go out and find the current issue of WB. Haven't subscribed yet, no sense when my address will be changing shortly.

I'm disabled and on a very fixed income, which is another reason I must often depend on others to do certain things, though I can take care of general maintenance. So, I won't really know how much I myself will be able to do until I see her this Friday. Certain positioning doesn't sit well with pins and screws, though I often find you sometimes just have to grin and bear it :mad: .
All in all, I'm quite certain in my heart it will all work out. Some things are just meant to be.
I will take pictures and attempt (I hear it's rather difficult) to post them when I get back. I will look forward (I think ;) ) to everyone's
advice.