A Mac rant... with apologies to Joe CSOH

[Norman Bernstein]

I really don't mean to start a flame war here... but my older daughter came over and cooked a fine dinner for me... and related her Mac tale of woe... which simply doesn't gybe with the kool-aid drinking Mac afficionados.

She has a G4 Powerbook, about 1.5 yrs old now... bought for the sake of her master's degree in Advertising, and her fledgling career as a graphic designer (as for those who say a PC can do it just as well, just try to get an MS in Advertising from Boston University without a Mac... it can't be done!)

From day one, the thing has run hot. How hot? Hot enough to burn her legs... so hot, the LCD screen is actually discoloring from heat damage, down near the aluminum case near the hinge... which you cannot touch after the thing has been on for an hour or so. Her battery was one serial number off from the batteries being recalled... although the power dissipation problem is probably not merely the battery.....

She needed a lot more external storage, so she bought an external 160Gb drive, advertised as Mac compatible... and then discovered that her USB ports were 1.1, not 2.0. It didn't make any difference, because the moment she plugged the drive in, it fried. The reason? by confirming with an Apple user's forum, Powergook G4's often fry external USB hard drives; they don't properly handle power switching for external mass storage devices on their USB ports, particularly, the ones with USB 1.1 ports (Apple changed to 2.0 ports a few months after sho bought the machine, but she can't upgrade).

She just got a brand new iPod, part of a deal with the wedding photographer (it came with all her wedding pictures pre-installed). However, the new iPod doesn't support FireWire, like the older ones did... leaving her with just a USB 1.1 connection, slow as mud (how long does it take to transfer 30Gb of data via USB 1.1? You don't want to ask).

So, how to deal? I came up with the thought of getting a PCM-CIA card with USB 2.0 ports as a means of upgrading... but, lo and behold, Apple won't support any PCM-CIA cards like that.

So, the next time some Mac kool-aid drinker tries to tell you that Mac's don't have problems like this...... :confused:

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

G4 Powerbook, about 1.5 years ago notoriously ran hot.
Is it an Aluminum or Titanium Powerbook? The former are known to run fairly hot.

Open your Activity Monitor and check for any processes that are using large percentages of CPU time. Especially any Anit-Virus programs like Virex or NAV. They are infamous for hogging large amounts of CPU time and causing the computer to run very hot and with fans on constantly. And are TOTALY not nessasary on a Mac. ;)

If she does not knwo if it is an AL or a TI check In the Utilities folder open your System Profiler app. Under Hardware, Machine Model should be Powerbook3,n if it's Titanium. If the first number is a 5 or 6, then it's Aluminum. The latter are supposed to run pretty hot, to the point where you cannot keep them on your thighs when you're sitting.

Sorry.

[Norman Bernstein]

G4 Powerbook, about 1.5 years ago notoriously ran hot.
Is it an Aluminum or Titanium Powerbook? The former are known to run fairly hot.

Open your Activity Monitor and check for any processes that are using large percentages of CPU time. Especially any Anit-Virus programs like Virex or NAV. They are infamous for hogging large amounts of CPU time and causing the computer to run very hot and with fans on constantly. And are TOTALY not nessasary on a Mac. ;)

If she does not knwo if it is an AL or a TI check In the Utilities folder open your System Profiler app. Under Hardware, Machine Model should be Powerbook3,n if it's Titanium. If the first number is a 5 or 6, then it's Aluminum. The latter are supposed to run pretty hot, to the point where you cannot keep them on your thighs when you're sitting.

Sorry.

I'll ask her... although I suppose it doesn't make a difference. I don't recall Apple running any ads which say "you have two choices: broil your thighs like a hamburger, or save money on heating bills in the winter."

The heat problem, however annoying, is minor in comparison to the interconnectivity problems. I just did a google search for possible solutions... and see none. No USB 2.0 PCM-CIA cards that are supported on a Powerbook.

If this had been a PC, there would have been dozens of possible accessiores and options.

The most outrageous part of this story is the fact that new iPods have deleted the FireWire portion of the interface.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I'll ask her... although I suppose it doesn't make a difference. I don't recall Apple running any ads which say "you have two choices: broil your thighs like a hamburger, or save money on heating bills in the winter."

The heat problem, however annoying, is minor in comparison to the interconnectivity problems. I just did a google search for possible solutions... and see none. No USB 2.0 PCM-CIA cards that are supported on a Powerbook.

If this had been a PC, there would have been dozens of possible accessiores and options.

The most outrageous part of this story is the fact that new iPods have deleted the FireWire portion of the interface.

Much like buying woodenboats I tend to do a lot of reseach before I purchase anything. My Ti Powerbook G4 was bought after I read online about the heat issue.

Again
Sorry.

[peb]

My new macbook pro runs pretty hot. My son's white macbook also runs hot, hotter than my macbook pro. They are hot enough to where they may not burn you but they would be real uncomfortable sitting on your lap without shorts.

Update on my switch to mac:

I continue to grow to appreciate the UI more and more.

I continue to be amazed at how much trouble it gives. For instance, yesterday, it quit working with my router (note, I have a lot of UNIX and TCP/IP networking experience). DHCP just would not load an IP address from my router, neither wireless or wired, the router was performing correctly. I spent an hour on the phone with the mac support people. Finally got it to work. Had to delete the systemconfiguration folder from the library/preference folder and recreate both network interfaces from scrath, albeit a pretty easy process, but I would have never figured it out on my own.

Another example, my blue tooth mouse will work fine for days and then all the suddenly not work. I have to delete it from the blue tooth devices and go through the rediscovery process again.

Mail continues to crash occasionally.

I to0 am not trying to start a rant. I am curious about all the hype about how things with a Mac just work. XP seems much more stable and robust.

[GregW]

The heat issue is why Apple's are now are using Intel CPU's. The makers of the Power PC CPU wouldn't commit to a timeline on the heat issue.
This also demonstrates another issue with Apple: backwards compatibility, not always a priority at Apple.

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Blasphemy!!!
:eek: :eek: :eek:

[Norman Bernstein]

Well, I guess the point I was making with this thread is that the claims of Apple simplicity and compatibility are largely hyperbole.

I find it pretty incredible that my daughter's Powerbook G4 cannot be upgraded with regard to the USB ports... without a total main board replacement.

If it was a PC, there are hundreds of aftermarket suppliers with compatible adaptors of every imaginable stripe.....

[brad9798]

Macs are like the Ford GT (imagine that, Joe likes both ;) ) ...

In that they come from the factory how they are going to be for life ... you pretty much choose your color and your wheels ...

If you need something more flexible, then you get a 'Vette.

But if the Ford GT fits your budget and your quests, it is the BEST there is in the WORLD. Just like Macs for what they do.

-----------------

Like I've said, I use both platforms, because I need both in my life ...

But for graphic design, your daughter will have to live with the Mac-thang!

-----------------

BTW- Joe, I stopped by the Bentley/Maserati dealership just up the street ... They have a red GT ... I didn't drive it, but I did get in, explore, and fire it up. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWW! Droooooool ... (Homer).

I want one now ... oh well. :(

[George Roberts]

"Especially any Anit-Virus programs like Virex or NAV."

Just remove those programs. Apple's don't get them.

---

Heat is a problem for all computers. My Windows laptops used to sit on wood tables. Now I have a riser with a fan under them.

Perhaps one of those nice notebook coolers that cost $40 would keep an Apple cool.

[Nicholas Carey]

Apple hasn't removed Firewire from the iPod. They've just made it optional. They used to produce a Firewire iPod (for Macs) and a USB iPod (for Windoze). Newer Macs support USB 2.0 (nearly as fast as Firewire). It finally occurred to somebody that it was silly to produce two nearly identical boxes, so they consolidated and only produce the USB iPod now.

However....If you want/need Firewire support, all you really need is an adapter/cable. Apple makes:

Apple iPod Dock Connector to FireWire and USB 2.0 Cable (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/3.RSLID?mco=7B24E8ED&nplm=M9688G%2FA)
$19.00. plugs into the iPod Dock Connector and has both a Firewire and a USB 2.0 connector.
Apple iPod Dock Connector to FireWire Cable (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/1.RSLID?mco=7247AC6E&nplm=M9127G%2FB)
$19. Same as above, but only a Firewire cable.
SendStation PocketDock (http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wo/10.RSLID?mco=717BF7E4&nplm=T8579LL%2FA)
$12.95. This little bupkus "lets you connect the new iPod's docking port to a standard 6-pin FireWire cable, thus delivering on the iPod's promise of freedom and independence."The first two widgets support the following iPods:
iPod mini
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod3.jpg
iPod 3rd generation
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod1.jpg
iPod w/click wheel
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod2.jpg
iPod w/color display
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod4.jpgThe third (last) widget supports the following iPods:
iPod nano 1st generation
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod6.jpg
iPod nano 2nd generation (aluminum)
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod9.jpg
iPod mini
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod3.jpg
iPod 3rd generation
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod1.jpg
iPod with click wheel
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod2.jpg
iPod with color display
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod4.jpg
iPod with video
http://a248.e.akamai.net/7/248/2041/1134/store.apple.com/Catalog/US/Images/compat_iPod7.jpgAnd there's 3rd party options as well, some as cheap as $5.

[Norman Bernstein]

However....If you want/need Firewire support, all you really need is an adapter/cable.

Sorry. Both my daughter and I have dual-interface cables (i.e., an iPod connector on one end, branching out to both USB and Firewire plugs). They work on my 3G iPod... but NOT on her brand new 30Gb iPod. Unless the connector pinout was changed, her new iPod does NOT support FireWire.

[Nicholas Carey]

I continue to be amazed at how much trouble it gives. For instance, yesterday, it quit working with my router (note, I have a lot of UNIX and TCP/IP networking experience). DHCP just would not load an IP address from my router, neither wireless or wired, the router was performing correctly. I spent an hour on the phone with the mac support people. Finally got it to work. Had to delete the systemconfiguration folder from the library/preference folder and recreate both network interfaces from scrath, albeit a pretty easy process, but I would have never figured it out on my own.That the most usual fix when oddball things happen. This is the equivalent of registry corruption in Windows.

Unlike windows, though, removing the appropriate PLIST from /Library/Preferences (system preferences) or ~/Library/Preferences (per-user preferences) generally fixes the problem -- the app or system service that uses the PLIST is supposed to create it with a set of defaults if its missing and is required (that's why OS X apps don't need installers -- the initialize themselves when they start up for the first time).


Another example, my blue tooth mouse will work fine for days and then all the suddenly not work. I have to delete it from the blue tooth devices and go through the rediscovery process again.Bluetooth issues are common regardless of platform (http://support.microsoft.com/search/default.aspx?catalog=LCID%3D1033&spid=global&query=Microsoft+Windows+bluetooth&adv=&mode=r&cat=False). Bluetooth operates on the unlicensed, low-power 2.4ghz band, along with cordless phones and various other devices -- microwave ovens, garage door openers, etc. -- not to mention IEEE 802.11b (aki Wi-Fi).

Is your wireless network zotting your Bluetooth? Or is it your phone, or your neighbor's heating a bowl of instant oatmeal nailing it instead? If you have a 2.4ghz cordless phone, you might consider replacing it with a 5.8ghz model (Panasonics are great phones!)

From a Bluetooth FAQ:
Bluetooth & Cordless Phones Interference

Original Post: Bluetooth & Cordless Phones (SIG Forum) Date: 2000-04-10

Bluetooth will operate at the 2.4GHz range. Few analog or FH cordless phones have designed to operate at the 2.4GHz band. Certainly interference exists in between, but more serious effects would be exerted on analog 2.4GHz cordless phone. However some other results can be obtained from testing of Aironet (Cisco), Lucent LAN and WAN 2.4 GHz wireless equipment. This equipment is not bluetooth nor FH but both products fail when using Panasonic's cordless phones anywhere near the equipment.

The vendors have no solution. It appears likely that the 2.4 GHz phones will replace the 900 MHz and will be everywhere. You can buy them at Wal-Mart now, they have much better quality and range than the 900 MHz. The phones render our wireless equipment useless.

Bluetooth though is designed to operate in a noisy frequency environment, by using constant frequency hopping. It would be expected that any interference would be intermittent.


Mail continues to crash occasionally.Outlook never crashes? ROTFLMAL :D Nobody ever said it was perfect. (I drive windows all day long at work -- I think Mail.App has fewer problems like that than Outlook/Exchange. The Mail.App crashes I've had always appear to be related to what I suspect is malformed emails, usually SPAM. I suspect the message has too-long headers that cause a buffer overlow (not that I've ever actually dug into it. I just reboot and move on.) I used to see mail crashes more often, when I was using IMAP instead of POP3 as the mail protocol. Since I switched to POP3, it's been much more stable.

[Meerkat]

There was a recall of some Mac laptops awhile back because the factory did not correctly apply the thermal compund to the CPU heatsink. The "more is better" school of thought does not work in this case... ;)

[Meerkat]

I have a dual station Panasonic 5.8ghz cordless phone with digital answering machine. It rocks. It's also going to pay for itself in less than a year by not using the phoneco snoop...errr.. voicemail. ;)

I really love the speaker phone feature on the handset.

[peb]

Nicolas,

Deleting system and user preferences is the solution to problems? Does one have to do this often? And then reinitialize from scratch whatever wasn't working. Windows registry problems don't seem so bad to me.

As for the blue tooth/phone affecting the wrieless network interference, I had ruled out that problem a long time before I called apple support.

And I have used bluetooth mouses on window machines before and they rarely disappear.

Actually, outlook rarely crashes. I have used it extensively. Outlook express has a lot of problems, but outlook does pretty well.

Don't get me wrong, I really do like my new mac, I am just very disappointed in a few things. The hype had led me to believe they were stable, this has not proven to be the case so far. The hype had led me to believe that making them work with various printers, networks, etc was easy. This has not proven to be the case so far.

And as for some of the apps, quicken comes to mind, if I was apple I would be embarassed if that is the best a software vendor could do to help in the transition.

The problem as I see it is that for anyone who uses a several different but common apps (mail, personal finances, business finances, office applications) it is almost impossible to completely switch over to a mac. Or at least prohibitive relative to the time and money required.

[Norman Bernstein]

Actually, outlook rarely crashes. I have used it extensively. Outlook express has a lot of problems, but outlook does pretty well. .

I concurr... I've been using Outlook every day, all day, ever since the very first version was released (I used Eudora briefly before that), and despite the fact that I abuse Outlook by leaving all my received and outgoing mail in it without archiving (nearly 10,000 emails), it has never crashed on me.... even when I was running W98.

[Meerkat]

You're lucky, Norm. Outbloat uses MS Access and it's notorious for blowing chunks when the db size gets too big.

[Nicholas Carey]

Sorry. Both my daughter and I have dual-interface cables (i.e., an iPod connector on one end, branching out to both USB and Firewire plugs). They work on my 3G iPod... but NOT on her brand new 30Gb iPod. Unless the connector pinout was changed, her new iPod does NOT support FireWire.Which 30gb iPod? There have been a few (http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=61688):, but it does look like the video iPod only supports Firewire for charging :mad:

[cs]

I concur about Outlook not crashing. Been using it for years on all the systems at work in conjunction with exhange and never have I seen an outlook crash.

Chad

[Nicholas Carey]

Deleting system and user preferences is the solution to problems? Does one have to do this often? And then reinitialize from scratch whatever wasn't working. Windows registry problems don't seem so bad to me.I've never, ever, had to toast a PLIST to fix a problem (2 'puters, both used daily for more than 5 years), but if the PLIST gets corrupted, that's the resolution (a PLIST is just an XML file and subject to the same set of potential issues in writing it to disk as any other file). I suppose if you understood the XML schema for that particular PLIST, you could fire up the text/XML editor of choice and fix it manually, but it's probably easier just to toast it and start over.


As for the blue tooth/phone affecting the wrieless network interference, I had ruled out that problem a long time before I called apple support.

And I have used bluetooth mouses on window machines before and they rarely disappear.Hmm...MSDN's Knowledgebase says other wise:

http://support.microsoft.com/intellimouseexplorerblue

I like this one, The input device may not work when you try to use a Wireless Optical Desktop for Bluetooth keyboard or mouse (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/811797/): "To resolve this issue...re-establish the link with the wireless desktop. To do this, follow these steps..." Sounds familiar, no? :D

But my favorite is this one, The Microsoft Bluetooth device is not detected on a third-party transceiver (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/916462/en-us). Zen question: When is a Standard not a Standard? "Embrace and Extend", wasn't that the motto?


Don't get me wrong, I really do like my new mac, I am just very disappointed in a few things. The hype had led me to believe they were stable, this has not proven to be the case so far. The hype had led me to believe that making them work with various printers, networks, etc was easy. This has not proven to be the case so far.What oddball hardware are you using? Just about any current production printer from a major manufacturer is "plug and play", usually without the need to install a driver. If you're trying to use crufty obsolete stuff, yeah, you're likely to have support problems.


And as for some of the apps, quicken comes to mind, if I was apple I would be embarassed if that is the best a software vendor could do to help in the transition.I'm not sure how Quicken is Apple's problem -- the Mac version has been pretty much on life support for the better part of a decade, I think. For years, Intuit has been refusing to expend any kind of real development effort/resources on the Mac version. I suspect it's because, for all practical purposes, Intuit has zero competition on the Mac platform.


The problem as I see it is that for anyone who uses a several different but common apps (mail, personal finances, business finances, office applications) it is almost impossible to completely switch over to a mac. Or at least prohibitive relative to the time and money required.Let's see...

Mail clients. I can think of several more than competent mail clients for OS X. You've got:
mail.app.
Thunderbird.
Eudora.
BBEdit's Mailsmith.
Microsoft's Entourage (comes with MS Office for OS X)
and more, including most *nix mail clients.Personal Finance. That's kind of an issue. For reasons I can't fathom Intuit/Quicken has the OS X world pretty much to itself for personal finance. You might look at liquid ledger (http://www.liquidledger.com/), though. It's got real potential.

Small Business. For business accounting, have you looked at MYOB (http://www.myob-us.com/getmyob/dr_continue.htm)? Also, Intuit is now producing QuickBooks Pro 2006 for OS X. There's also AcctVantage (http://www.acctvantage.com/pages/product-features.php), been around for the Mac for nearly 20 years now.

Office Apps. Really? hard to find office apps? There's always MS Office (http://www.microsoft.com/mac/), of course. Comes with Word, Excel, Powerpoint, Entourage. About the only thing its missing is Powerpoint. Apple, of course, offers iWork (considerably cheaper than OMS Office at $79), though admittedly a little weak in the spreadsheet department. Cheaper yet, but more full-featured is OpenOffice (http://www.openoffice.org/index.html) (X11) and its children like the OS X native NeoOffice (http://neooffice.org/).

Project management software is a bit weak (eg, no MS Project), but there's a bunch o'Options out there:
Merlin (http://www.projectwizards.net/en/merlin)
OmniPlan (http://www.omnigroup.com/applications/omniplan/)
ItaskX (http://www.itaskx.com/software/en/default.htm)
SharedPlan (http://www.sharedplan.com/index.html)

[George Roberts]

Small businesses tend to use whatever their tax prep people use. For the most part that is Peachtree.

Ignoring speciality products, spreadsheets, word processer, and e-mail are the only other software that small businesses use.

I think that Apple provides sufficient in all but Peachtree.

[peb]

Nicholas,

Didn't mean to touch such a nerve. I did not mean to say that all those applications were not available. I meant to say that if those are the suites of applications one uses, a fairly common suite IMO, it is touch to cover all the basid on a MAC, in particular the personal finance area. And if a major application provider (ie intuit) is not supporting apple's platform, it is apple's problem.

As for printers, maybe you can help. I haven't had too much time to work on it. My set is aas follows, a Minolta pagepro 1350 laser printer and a HP office jet 4110. Both of them hooked up to a windows machine. Other windows machines in the house print to them through XP's printer sharing across the network. I want to do the same thing from my MacBook Pro. It doesn't seem to work. Now on a windows machine, you have to install the driver on the client machine, so I thought maybe the same thing was needed on the mac. The minolta does not have a macintosh driver, the hp does. I installed the HP mac driver, but it did not appear as an opption in the printer type pull down when adding the printer.

[Meerkat]

Intuit probably does not spend any money on Mac Quicken because the return would not cover the investment. That's the same reason why most PC software makers don't bother with Mac. This might change with the advent of Macintel machines, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[peb]

Also, I could expand on my "make the switch" to a mac story a little.
It has been said that spreadsheets and other office apps are better suited to the windows. I don't think I agree. I use Office extensively and normally have several documents open at the same time. Once you get use to it, the MAC UI does seem better suited to this than Window's. As for Office, it works fine. Power Point is slow at time, and I attribute this to needed the Rosetta layer of software to run it. It slows down when it needs to do a lot of imaging, eg. switch to slide sorter view. Besides this, it all works well. I have not really used a lot of my large excel spreadsheets too much, but it seems ok.

My only complaint is the default zoom setting is wrong for my eyes/screen and you can'd change the default. It gets old having to set it everytime you open a file.

[peb]

Intuit probably does not spend any money on Mac Quicken because the return would not cover the investment. That's the same reason why most PC software makers don't bother with Mac. This might change with the advent of Macintel machines, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Well, what I need is a good investment tracking program. Cost basis, performance charts, etc. As for day to day personal finance, checking accounts etc, my wife does that and she will continue to use quicken. Quicken's investment management is very good. Is there an alternative app for macs? It would need to support automatic downloads of transactions from brokerage accounts and importing of historical transactions from quicken (for the switch) and download of historical price quotes. Export functions into excel would also be important.

[john l]

why must one click "start" on XP when they want to "stop" or "quit"?
there is some logic that 97% of the population buys into that i just don't understand. keep telling me it is better, easier more friendly! maybe someday i will see it. in the mean time i am mac!

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

John your on a rant ;)
Good to see ya posting more ;)
By the way have ya checked out the Tidbit Videos on You-Tube ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNBKAz4kElg

For all those who don't know john l is Tidbits previous steward and an all around nice guy. ;)

[john l]

yeah joe, i did see both. loved them but i almost cried. liked the second one better. what a nice boat!
if i were to remake your video i would simply slow down the pans across the interior and deck for a little more seduction. tid bit is solid and beautiful... and
the sexiest cat boat alive!

[john l]

btw.. a second pc bit the dust yesterday. that leaves 3 macs and a pc standing. two of the macs were and are the heaviest used and the oldest pieces of equip here. one mac and one pc are among the newest.
mind you i am send this via the pc. i'm commited to being fluent in each operating system. but my native language is mac!

[Meerkat]

Well, what I need is a good investment tracking program. It doesn't mean there isn't any, but I don't know of any/much financial/investing software for Macs. It's not generally considered a business platform. Linux probably has more stuff available along those lines.

[Paul Pless]

Originally Posted by peb
Well, what I need is a good investment tracking program.


Get a hold of Brad 9798, if anyone knows of what your looking for its gotta be him.

[Nicholas Carey]

As for printers, maybe you can help. I haven't had too much time to work on it. My set is aas follows, a Minolta pagepro 1350 laser printer and a HP office jet 4110. Both of them hooked up to a windows machine. Other windows machines in the house print to them through XP's printer sharing across the network. I want to do the same thing from my MacBook Pro. It doesn't seem to work. Now on a windows machine, you have to install the driver on the client machine, so I thought maybe the same thing was needed on the mac. The minolta does not have a macintosh driver, the hp does. I installed the HP mac driver, but it did not appear as an opption in the printer type pull down when adding the printer.Has little to do with the driver.

OS X uses CUPS (Common Unix Print System) as it's The Standard in *nix-land. You can learn More Than You Ever Wanted to Know about CUPS at its web site http://www.cups.org/index.php

To make Windows printers available to a networked OS X box, you have to jump through some hoops on the Windows side to make the printer look like a CUPS printer. Check out these links for details:
http://roachfiend.com/archives/2005/09/09/use-your-mac-laptop-to-utilize-a-windows-printer/
http://www.macosxhints.com/article.php?story=20020824202229751It might be easier to move the printer to the Mac -- OS X includes Samba (a better Windows networking than windows :D) and it's fairly easy to share out an OS X printer so it's visible to Windows boxen.

Note that you may still have driver issues and possibly permissions/authentication issues, depending on how your Windows network set up -- are you doing networking via a workgroup, or do you have a domain controller and active directory (LDAP) set up?

[peb]

Nicholas,

Thanks for the advice and information, I will try to play with it some more today. I would rather not hoold the printers up to the Mac, because it is a laptop and I don't want to be messing with cables all the time. In additions, my kids need the printers at times when I (and my laptop) are at meetings.

The networking is just the simple XP Home networking.

[Norman Bernstein]

All you Mac Powerbook users might want to google 'apple narcolepsy'.... my daughter's Powerbook has developed a severe case of it. Apparently, it's caused by a bad temperature sensor in the keypad assembly, which causes the OS (or, more correctly, whatever passes for a BIOS in the Mac) to force the machine into sleep mode. Worst of all: it can't be fixed in software. Apple wants $1200 to fix it. A few intrepid owners have opened up the machine and clipped out the defective sensor.