View Full Version : The Secret Letter From Iraq
This is worth reading:
Time.com (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1543658-1,00.html)
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 02:35 PM
This letter was published in the blogs last week (yet another case of the blogs beating the MSM to the story). An interesting letter... similar to the book I read, by an Iraq G.I., called 'The only true story I'll never tell again' or something like that.
The Time letter, or at least the part that was published on the website referred to, was not the whole letter.
This letter was published in the blogs last week (yet another case of the blogs beating the MSM to the story).
Please note the Time.com story was posted on October 6.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 02:47 PM
Please note the Time.com story was posted on October 6.
I know... but I think the blogs actually had it earlier, but didn't have the author's name, which was originally anonymous... they later identified the writer.
Several weeks ago, the first place I saw it, 18 September: http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/006408.html
Yes, a very remarkable letter.
I like this part:
Biggest Hassle — High-ranking visitors. More disruptive to work than a rocket attack. VIPs demand briefs and "battlefield" tours (we take them to quiet sections of Fallujah, which is plenty scary for them). Our briefs and commentary seem to have no effect on their preconceived notions of what's going on in Iraq. Their trips allow them to say that they've been to Fallujah, which gives them an unfortunate degree of credibility in perpetuating their fantasies about the insurgency here.
I'd really like to know what you think about it, Donn.
Milo Christensen
10-13-2006, 02:52 PM
That's a great read. Made me laugh out loud (the midgets) and get choked up with pride.
And this part:
Biggest Offender: Bill O'Reilly
Did this letter have any effect on your preconceived notions, Donn?
Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-13-2006, 02:56 PM
Good post Donn. Poor bastards fighting over there.... lets you know how good soldiers are, and how bad politicians can be.
Osborne Russell
10-13-2006, 02:57 PM
Great stuff, definitely worth reading.
Good post Donn. Poor bastards fighting over there.... lets you know how good soldiers are, and how bad politicians can be.Yup. I've got little but respect for the vast majority of the soldiers. I've got quite a bit less for those who've put them in danger for scurrilous reasons.
Most Profound Man in Iraq — an unidentified farmer in a fairly remote area who, after being asked by Reconnaissance Marines if he had seen any foreign fighters in the area replied "Yes, you."
Bruce Hooke
10-13-2006, 04:46 PM
That's an interesting letter. He manages to paint a picture of what it is like to be there while neatly avoiding politics. It would be interesting to know what exactly he thinks the high ranking visitors and talking heads are getting so wrong. He does not say which party or "faction" they are from (aside from naming Bill O'Reilly) so one has to assume that both sides are getting the story wrong from his perspective. I expect selected parts of what he said will be picked out by each side in the debate.
Peter Malcolm Jardine
10-13-2006, 05:49 PM
I would think most of the VIP's and Talking heads would get it wrong... How do you snapshot a complex conflict that is ripping a country apart into a few minutes of newscast. Iraq is screwed.
Osborne Russell
10-13-2006, 05:56 PM
How do you snapshot a complex conflict that is ripping a country apart into a few minutes of newscast.
The administration doesn't need a few minutes. They can do it in a few words. Knowing the audience is the key.
I have a couple of close friends in Marine Corps Recon and Intel in western Iraq. They could be, or probably know the letter writer.
Needless to say, they have a different opinion of the war than anyone on this forum.
I don't think "Iraq is screwed" as long as there are people like the Mayor in the letter, or the constant supply of police recruits who are willing to put it on the line for their country.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 07:21 PM
I don't think "Iraq is screwed" as long as there are people like the Mayor in the letter, or the constant supply of police recruits who are willing to put it on the line for their country.
I applaud those people who you refer to... but they're anecdotes, not the complete story. If the 'constant supply of police recruits' were actually suficient to create order and security in Iraq, it would have happened already. In case you didn't notice, the security situation is getting worse, not better.
Be prepared... word is that the Baker commission may well recommend giving up on the entire notion of bringing democracy to Iraq, in order to bring an 'accomodation with the insurgents'. If that's what they recommend, it's going to be a blockbuster.
More new Iraqi police have been killed than US troops. And they keep lining up to volunteer. If we have the guts to stay, they'll make it. If we leave before they're ready, then the violence will really start.
I applaud those people who you refer to... but they're anecdotes, not the complete story. If the 'constant supply of police recruits' were actually suficient to create order and security in Iraq, it would have happened already. In case you didn't notice, the security situation is getting worse, not better.
Of course it's anecdotal. Everything in reports from Iraq is anecdotal. If the police situation were "actually suficient[sic]" many of the problems in Iraq wouldn't exist. The fact that you think it should have "happened already" is a classic example of your lack of understanding, and your agenda driven opinion. You have no valid viewpoint on this issue. If LBJ wants a "preconceived notion" about this war, he has to look no further than your posts.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 08:11 PM
The fact that you think it should have "happened already" is a classic example of your lack of understanding.....
'Lack of understanding'?
Hmmm...OK, let's for the moment presume that I'm truly ignorant, and you're somehow an expert in military strategy and tactics (in addition to being a master boatbuilder and consumate gardener).
Let's see.... we have spent more time fighting in Iraq than we did in winning WWII... and the insurgency, from any objective analysis (pick your criteria... number of deaths, number of attacks, whatever) has been increasing almost continuously since the infamous 'mission accomplished' photo opportunity. Via TV reports showing interviews with civilians, and with recorded statements of our own soldiers, citizens in Iraq are asking that American troops replace Iraqi police, who are reported to be corrupt and often part of Suni or Shiite militias. An entire province is deemed so dangerous, that American troops can't safely leave their bases.
So, do tell, based on your extensive military experience... just how long will the situation in Iraq deteriorate, as it clearly has been deteriorating, before it would be reasonable and fair to assert that the 'stay the course' strategy is failing?
I think I'll be more likely to believe the assesment of the Baker commission... but I'll wait and see. You'll excuse me if I don't find your assesment authoritative of anything other than your own opinion.... which you're certainly entitled to.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 08:12 PM
More new Iraqi police have been killed than US troops. And they keep lining up to volunteer. If we have the guts to stay, they'll make it. If we leave before they're ready, then the violence will really start.
It hasn't 'really started' yet?
Surely you're joking, right?
You have no valid viewpoint on this issue. .
there are some people who work to be assholes and some are naturals.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 08:22 PM
there are some people who work to be assholes and some are naturals.
Hmmmm... actually, I missed that... but I'm not surprised. Donn has been consistent about making it clear that he respects absolutely no opinion other than his own... and is contemptuous of everyone else's.... and needs to be sure that everyone knows it.
..you're somehow an expert in military strategy and tactics (in addition to being a master boatbuilder and consumate gardener).
Sorry, Normy. You blew it here. I don't build boats, nor consume gardeners. If you want to be a jerk in this discussion, be my guest. You can talk to yourself and LeeGee. I'm not interested in your hypocritical games.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 08:30 PM
Sorry, Normy. You blew it here. I don't build boats, nor consume gardeners. If you want to be a jerk in this discussion, be my guest. You can talk to yourself and LeeGee. I'm not interested in your hypocritical games.
I already know that, Donn. You did, after all, tell me that I had 'no valid viewpoint.' Heaven knows, I wouldn't want you to have to suffer fools, gladly or not. :D
*lol*
Leaving Donn out of the issue but addressing a point he could have been attempting to make, that the hoped for outcome hasn't occured yet. More Iraqis need to die, more Americans need to die. When enough are killed future historians will be the ones to make the final opinion.
In other words,,stay the course.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 08:35 PM
Leaving Donn out of the issue but addressing a point he could have been attempting to make, that the hoped for outcome hasn't occured yet. More Iraqis need to die, more Americans need to die. When enough are killed future historians will be the ones to make the final opinion.
It's not much of a consolation to those soldiers and civilians who are going to die over the next couple of years, until someone makes the decision that it has to end, Lee.
And yes, it all works better if we leave Donn out of it. After all, we have no valid point of view :D
It hasn't 'really started' yet? Surely you're joking, right?
Not in the least.
If we leave before the Iraq Police are able and ready to stand between the various factions, the multi-sided battle that will occur will make what has happened so far look like a training exercise. They have almost a century of well-honed grudges that by their old family and tribal standards, demand blood vengence. Some -- not all, yet -- of the tribal and religious leaders and elders have figured out that the blood bath their hotheads are demanding is not something that will be to their long-term advantage. What we're doing is dying to give them a chance to bring their fellow leaders and followers to that realization.
Norman Bernstein
10-13-2006, 10:50 PM
Not in the least.
If we leave before the Iraq Police are able and ready to stand between the various factions, the multi-sided battle that will occur will make what has happened so far look like a training exercise. They have almost a century of well-honed grudges that by their old family and tribal standards, demand blood vengence. Some -- not all, yet -- of the tribal and religious leaders and elders have figured out that the blood bath their hotheads are demanding is not something that will be to their long-term advantage. What we're doing is dying to give them a chance to bring their fellow leaders and followers to that realization.
You're making the assumption, htom, that it's even possible for this to occur... and I respectfully submit that there isn't the slightest evidence... historial, cultural, or contemporary... that it's remotely possible.
We are viewing Iraq through Western eyes, with Western prejudices... as opposed to viewing them in the same light in which they view themselves. Our cultural concepts that seem so obvious and evident... the concepts of democracy and freedom... are foreign to them. Instead, they have a history of centuries of internecine tribal hostilities and religious emnities. The only reason they weren't killing each other in the streets for the past 50 years is that there was always a dictator capable of suppressing all that stuff.
I'm not suggesting that there aren't at least some Iraqis who desire to move out of the middle-ages thought trap and into contemporary concepts of government... but it ought to be blatantly clear to anyone who follows the news that there simply aren't enough of them with the same notions... maybe it will take another 50 or 100 years until that occurs.
I personally feel that all we have managed to do, in Iraq, is to prove that we cannot force-feed democracy down the throats of a people who will not take it for themselves. In fact, the very concepts we're talking about are meaningless unless they're freely and openly adopted. If they're not, then all we're doing is imposing a different kind of dictatorship there.
Cuyahoga Chuck
10-13-2006, 10:58 PM
"More new Iraqi police have been killed than US troops. And they keep lining up to volunteer"
Neither you nor I know why they are volunteering. I'll put my money on their desire to hook up with one of the death squads the police are riddled with. Without some friendly muscle for protection the chances of being tortured multilated and murdered look rather great.
No matter if we stay or if we go, Bagdad is emptying itself out. Anyone who has a skill that can be used elswhere is heading to safer countries. When we are gone it will be the poor and ignorant killing the poor and ingnorant and whoever comes out on top will possess a wasteland where banditry is the occupation of choice.
So much for Bushian democracy.
Charlie
BrianW
10-14-2006, 12:03 AM
"More new Iraqi police have been killed than US troops. And they keep lining up to volunteer"
Neither you nor I know why they are volunteering. I'll put my money on their desire to hook up with one of the death squads the police are riddled with. Without some friendly muscle for protection the chances of being tortured multilated and murdered look rather great.
Chuck,
I'm having a hard time synchronizing your quote with the fact that the Iraqi police are being killed.
If being an Iraqi cop is such a good way to get in good standing with the bad guys, and equals protection from torture and murder, why are they dying in such high numbers?
I'm having a hard time synchronizing your quote with the fact that the Iraqi police are being killed.
If being an Iraqi cop is such a good way to get in good standing with the bad guys, and equals protection from torture and murder, why are they dying in such high numbers?
You haven't seen a lot of ganster movies, have you?
They join for protection and end up fighting for survival. It's a common theme, both in the movies and real life. Check out the death rates among inner-city black American youth.
You think those guys joined because they wanted to get killed in a drive-by? Or maybe because they didn't want to be the only guy in the neighborhood without a gun when the shooting starts?
If we have the guts to stay, they'll make it. If we leave before they're ready, then the violence will really start.
What are your guts doing for the next year?
BrianW
10-14-2006, 07:56 AM
You haven't seen a lot of ganster movies, have you?
They join for protection and end up fighting for survival. It's a common theme, both in the movies and real life. Check out the death rates among inner-city black American youth.
You think those guys joined because they wanted to get killed in a drive-by? Or maybe because they didn't want to be the only guy in the neighborhood without a gun when the shooting starts?
They're joining an organization well known for high murder rates, which seems quite the opposite of high protection rates. They are not joining a gang, but rather the police force.
I have my ideas about why many of them join, but it involves things like patriatism, desire to see their country succeed, and placing others lives above their own. These reasons seem inconceivable to a certain group of the population, in both the US and Iraq.
Even the guy who wrote the letter has much respect for the Iraqi police force.
Norman Bernstein
10-14-2006, 08:04 AM
Even the guy who wrote the letter has much respect for the Iraqi police force.
He does, indeed.... and if it were not for the video I saw on a news program a few nights ago, I might have concluded that they all were....
The video showed a group of Iraqi civilians, pleading with a squad of American soldiers to stay and protect them from... the Iraqi police. The soldiers were there to tell the civilians that they were indeed going to move into the town and eject the Iraqi police authorities. The look of fear and fright on the civilian's faces said quite a bit to me.
I have my ideas about why many of them join, but it involves things like patriatism, desire to see their country succeed, and placing others lives above their own.
No doubt that is at least somewhat true... but you would be very naive to think that everyone's motive are so pure. Remember: we invaded Iraq not Disneyland.
It's no secret (http://www.forbes.com/business/healthcare/feeds/ap/2006/10/14/ap3091022.html) that there are militia killing squads operating in the police force.
The Shiite-led police force is widely accused of being infiltrated by Shiite militias blamed in slayings of Sunni Arabs...
Earlier this month, an entire brigade of some 700 policemen were suspended from service and taken to barracks because of suspected militia sympathies. The commander of one of the brigade's battalions faces criminal prosecution.
The troops were suspected of allowing Shiite militias to carry out a mass kidnapping of some two dozen people from a frozen food factory in Baghdad. At least seven of those kidnap victims have since been found dead.
Gosh, if everyone had pure motives such as patriotism, altruism and a desire to see their country succeed, we wouldn't have any war at all!
If being an Iraqi cop is such a good way to get in good standing with the bad guys, and equals protection from torture and murder, why are they dying in such high numbers?
it's a civil war. Jihadists target everybody. Different militias target each other. Many target US forces. Police are on the street and provide a focus to maintain chaos.
If you read any first person reports by Iraqis about what's changed in their neighborhood the fear of the police is one of them.
For a good time google up Bernard Kiruks activities in Bagdad, he was appointed to train the police.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.12 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.