OK, a question for MAC enthusiasts

[Norman Bernstein]

This one involves video....

My wife (manager of the local community TV station) uses the Mac extensively for video editing (there are three complete G5's in the studio, all equipped with pro DV decks, etc, for the purpose).

In preparation for a 10 day trip to China with the school system exchange program, she bought a Sony digital camcorder to carry as a backup to the professional miniDV camcorder she'll also be bringing. This new camcorder has an internal 30Gb hard disk instead of tape or DVD.

The problem is this: the Sony came with a PC application that permits extracting the video from the camera over USB. Actually, you don't need the application, because the camera appears to a PC just like any mass storage device, so you can just drag and drop the MPEG clips from the camera to the PC.

The problem is that Sony actually doesn't support using a Mac to offload video from the camera. When you plug it into a Mac, you can drag what looks like video to the Mac, from the camera.... but there's no sound when it's played.

She dicovered that the only 'official' way to do it is to buy some $100 piece of software from a third party company that Sony recommends... which offends us, especially considering that the camera was $950 as it is.

So, the question is this: has anyone figured out how to transfer an MPEG file from a PC to a Mac, easily? We've tried doing it via burned DVD as well as via jump drive, but even though we appear to actually transfer the file, it's unplayable.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Sounds like its a sony problem not a Mac problem.

Sorry I cant help you but try this place.

http://forums.applenova.com/

They are about as fast as this place and about as good with the info.

[pcford]

Your question unfortunately contained a paucity of information.

On USENET ask your question on the rec.video.production newsgroup. The group includes a lot of video professionals. When you ask your question, include the model of your Sony camera.

[Milo Christensen]

I thought MPEG was a standardized format. Can you check which codec's are in use by the camera, the pc, and the mac?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I have a Cannon digital video camera and it works perfect with Mac's iMovie 2.

[pcford]

Evidently your wife's camera is a DCR-SR100. It stores the footage in mpeg form on its hard drive. It is possible to convert mpeg to dv with utilities which are available separately. Whether or not Final Cut, which I presume is your wife's editing tool, is capable of inputing mpeg...is something not known to me.

I do know that mpeg is usually not considered a good editing format.

[Norman Bernstein]

Evidently your wife's camera is a DCR-SR100. It stores the footage in mpeg form on its hard drive. It is possible to convert mpeg to dv with utilities which are available separately. Whether or not Final Cut, which I presume is your wife's editing tool, is capable of inputing mpeg...is something not known to me.

I do know that mpeg is usually not considered a good editing format.




Yes, the studio edits in Final Cut Pro, exclusively.

The point of buying this camera, incidentally, was not as any sort of primary piece of equipment. The studio posesses a huge array of genuinely professional DV and miniDV equipment, and the primary camera for this trip is a 3 chip miniDV pro camcorder from JVC.

This camera was simply meant as a very small handheld thing for use when some quick informal stuff needs to be shot, or when it's important to be less obtrusive than the inevitably larger professional gear.

The download incompatibility was a surprise; the camera got very good reviews, and on it's own merits, is a truly remarkable piece of gear. Especially impressive: the bluetooth wireless mic, which has amazing range and surprisingly good fidelity.

I'll check out the various sites that were recommended here... we already know that the $100 software package that Sony recommends will work, but we're just kind of incensed at having to buy it.... chances are, we'll order it anyhow.

[George Roberts]

If the mpeg runs on a PC, it must run on a MAC.

I suspect there is something that we are all missing...

[Norman Bernstein]

If the mpeg runs on a PC, it must run on a MAC.

I suspect there is something that we are all missing...

My thoughts, exactly. I can surmise that there are file system incompatibilities. However, she has yet to install 'Parallels' on the laptop we've been working with, so it's possible that Parallels will resolve the file format issues... I'll find out tonight.

Parallels, incidently, is simply amazing.... it runs Windows on a Mac better than Windows runs on a PC... boots faster... and, so far, has exhibited absolutely no compatibility problems.

[pcford]

Mpeg will, of course, play on a Mac. The problem is that it is not a good format in which to edit. Assuming that there is not a more direct way to get the footage into the G5, I am sure that there are utilities that can change the footage to Quicktime which Final Cut will prefer.

I know this is not an answer to your question and I hate it when people do this but the person that suggested that camera should never be used for advice again. The model is a rather expensive consumer level camera. Fine for "snapshots" of family vacations etc. But it is not what you should be using. I'd simplify your life and take the camera back. Get a good single chip new (cheeper) tape storage or a Sony VX2000 3 chip used. (Same price.)

Sounds like the main camera might be a JVC 500. It is a bit large.

In my humble opinion.

[Norman Bernstein]

Mpeg will, of course, play on a Mac. The problem is that it is not a good format in which to edit. Assuming that there is not a more direct way to get the footage into the G5, I am sure that there are utilities that can change the footage to Quicktime which Final Cut will prefer.

I know this is not an answer to your question and I hate it when people do this but the person that suggested that camera should never be used for advice again. The model is a rather expensive consumer level camera. Fine for "snapshots" of family vacations etc. But it is not what you should be using. I'd simplify your life and take the camera back. Get a good single chip new (cheeper) tape storage or a Sony VX2000 3 chip used. (Same price.)

In my humble opinion.

My wife (something of an expert/professional in video editing) tells me that mpegs don't present any problem for Final Cut.

As for the camera, it's not lack of availability of pro gear that convinced her to buy it... she's got tons of pro gear. However, the smallest 'professional' camera the studio has is three or four times the size of the Sony... and in the testing she's done this week, the image quality of the Sony is every bit as good as the pro stuff.

The 'advice' didn't come from one person, it came from reading a number of reviews.... but none of the reviews mentioned Mac compatibility.

However, until/unless she gets a decent solution for file transfer, returning the camera looks like a possibility.

[pcford]

My wife (something of an expert/professional in video editing) tells me that mpegs don't present any problem for Final Cut.

As for the camera, it's not lack of availability of pro gear that convinced her to buy it... she's got tons of pro gear. However, the smallest 'professional' camera the studio has is three or four times the size of the Sony... and in the testing she's done this week, the image quality of the Sony is every bit as good as the pro stuff.

The 'advice' didn't come from one person, it came from reading a number of reviews.... but none of the reviews mentioned Mac compatibility.

However, until/unless she gets a decent solution for file transfer, returning the camera looks like a possibility.

I read the reviews too, Norm. They looked mixed to me.

I understand the need for smaller cameras for documentary work.
A VX2000 is not much bigger and is pretty much prosumer level. Even a PD 170 is not terribly conspicous. But if I were doing this I would get a good single chip with tape storage. Switching formats is a off-putting to me. Possibility of audio/video sync. problems. Mpeg compresses footage into descrete chunks; transcoding from mpeg is a bit difficult.

But try the newsgroup I suggested. Real pros there.

[elf]

Did you search the knowledge base on apple's site?

Also, there's a wonderful Mac-L that I use when I need help. Google it and subscribe, it's not a Yahoo or Google group. Takes but a moment to get subscribed and there is a core of very knowledgable folks on that list.

Bet you'll get help quickly from them.

[BrianW]

Parallels, incidently, is simply amazing.... it runs Windows on a Mac better than Windows runs on a PC... boots faster... and, so far, has exhibited absolutely no compatibility problems.

Kind of information that makes me want to buy a Mac laptop next time around. Thanks.

[pcford]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein
Parallels, incidently, is simply amazing.... it runs Windows on a Mac better than Windows runs on a PC... boots faster... and, so far, has exhibited absolutely no compatibility problems.


"Kind of information that makes me want to buy a Mac laptop next time around. Thanks."

Kinda credulous ain't you? Mac fanboys will tell you that a Mac will cook lunch and wax your car. They even claimed that Macs were faster than PCs 'til the lawdogs dissuaded them.

I just want a machine that works well and is priced resonably. Keep your black turtlenecks. No religion here. Thank you very much.

Someone that would believe this stuff could believe that W is something other than the Worst President Ever.

[elf]

Quote:Someone that would believe this stuff could believe that W is something other than the Worst President Ever.

I guess that makes Walt Mossberg a fool?

[Norman Bernstein]

Kind of information that makes me want to buy a Mac laptop next time around. Thanks.

Whoa, hold on.... despite how remarkably well Parallels works, I'm by no means endorsing the idea that buying a Mac laptop is a good idea because of it. For one thing, laptops with comparable horsepower, memory, screen size, etc will be dramatically cheaper as PC models than as Macs. The one my wife recently bought, an average size Mac laptop without any stupendous memory or speed, was $1250 before the memory upgrade to 1Gb.... you can buy PC laptops with equivalent speed, memory, disk space for $800-900 or even less.

I think it's utterly context dependent. My wife produces and edits video... so a Mac is absolutely necessary, even if there were no Parallels software available. I, on the other hand, run electrical engineering applications, all of which are Windows-based, so the Mac offers no advantage.

For the average 'office' user (word processing, spreadsheets, some light graphics) I don't see any reason why a Mac, at a 50% price premium, is worth it over a PC.... but it's a style thing, and there's the 'coolness' factor, so fashionability tilts in favor of the Mac.

[pcford]

My wife produces and edits video... so a Mac is absolutely necessary.....<snips>

Huh? Funny....In a parallel life with boat restoratiion, I do video and do it on a PC not a Mac. There is a hoary old belief that "PCs are for business; Macs are for graphics." This might have been the case twenty years ago but it certainly is not the case now. Final Cut Pro, an excellent editing program, is only available on the Mac side, but that is the choice of Apple. There are plenty of high level professional video applications for PCs, perhaps more than for Macs.

I recently took a course in After Effects, I guess you could call it a special effects program, the classroom, unfortunately was furnished with pokey Macs, the instructor had a PC.

There is certainly no need to have a Mac for graphics. Unfortunately, the Mac fanboys are so close-minded they would make a Republican caveman seem free-thinkers.

[Norman Bernstein]

Huh? Funny....In a parallel life with boat restoratiion, I do video and do it on a PC not a Mac. There is a hoary old belief that "PCs are for business; Macs are for graphics."

I think you've misconstrued the coment.

Sure, it is entirely possible to edit video on a PC... and to do it quite well, in fact.

However, it's simply a fact of life that most professional and semi-professional video editors are using MAC's and Final Cut Pro.... and if you were the manager of a television station, with the requirement to hire people with video editing experience, you'd need to be MAC-based, not PC based.

Similarly, my daughter (BS and MS in Advertising, with a graphic design specialty) simply had to be MAC literate in order to get a job... regardles of the technical merit, advertising agencies, especially the graphics design departments, are MAC-based.

Apple 'owns' those markets because they once did the job better. Whether they still do may be debatable.... but nonetheless, they still own the professional market. It's not a fashion or style thing, per se... it's just a fact of life.

[pcford]

Apple 'owns' those markets because they once did the job better. Whether they still do may be debatable.... but nonetheless, they still own the professional market. It's not a fashion or style thing, per se... it's just a fact of life.
Norm, that's just BS. It used to be the case, it certainly is not anymore. I do this stuff a lot; I do corporate videos for an internationally significant company. I work with professionals in the field. One of the people I work with is a top editor at Victory Studios (they have a website, check it out), one of the most important post-production houses in Seattle. I asked the IT guy there what the ratio of PCs to Macs was. He said they have over a hundred PCs and four Macs. The Macs are to run Final Cut. PCs run the Avid system of video editing.

I subscribe to several professional video editing magazines. There are full of ads for PCs. Somebody must be buying them.

It seems you are quite a few years behind the times.

[Norman Bernstein]

Norm, that's just BS. It used to be the case, it certainly is not anymore. I do this stuff a lot; I do corporate videos for an internationally significant company. I work with professionals in the field. One of the people I work with is a top editor at Victory Studios (they have a website, check it out), one of the most important post-production houses in Seattle. I asked the IT guy there what the ratio of PCs to Macs was. He said they have over a hundred PCs and four Macs. The Macs are to run Final Cut. PCs run the Avid system of video editing.

I'm not going to challenge your professionalism or credentials. I don't do this stuff myself, but my wife has been doing it for 25+ years, so I suppose she's as much of a professional as you are. Since she has to hire people to do this sort of work, I think she's pretty aware of who is using what out there... and what sorts of experience is available in the labor market.

As for your PC-to-Mac ratio, one wonders why they have Macs at all... you say it's to do Final Cut editing.... how come, if PC's dominate the market?


I subscribe to several professional video editing magazines. There are full of ads for PCs. Somebody must be buying them.

My wife gets the pro magazines as well, and I've seen them... sure, lots of ads for PC stuff. It doesn't say all that much about what predominates out there. She's tried PC-based editors, and found them lousy in comparison to Final Cut. She's also tried Avid; in fact, they used to use Avid in the studio... but settled on Final Cut as being better, as well as substantially cheaper.


It seems you are quite a few years behind the times.

I think you're suggesting that my wife is. Well, she's only been managing a TV studio, editing video, and directing video for the last 25+ years. Maybe she'll catch up with ya someday :D

[Cec]

As SysAdmin for my company I can only say that we have nothing but PCs for the day to day work, but all Macs for our Print (catalog) Group. Why? because that's what the business uses and what the manager is comfortable with. In the end, it's down to what software you use and have used and which machine does the job. Preferences, more than anything else, pretty much dictate what someone uses today.

As for the original question posed ... IF they have software that will do it for $100.00 then it Can be done... and a search will usually find additional software out there....

Best to you

Cec

[pcford]

Well, she's only been managing a TV studio, editing video, and directing video for the last 25+ years. Maybe she'll catch up with ya someday :D

Norman, Norman, Norman. I am sure she is a highly skilled person. You or your wife can edit with anything she cares to use. Macs are fine, fine machines. They make a great editing station.

What I objected to is your statement that, "My wife produces and edits video... so a Mac is absolutely necessary...." This statement is pure unadulterated cow puckey. Nonsense.

What I dislike about Mac fanboys is that sense of quasi-religious certitude. There is one thing I have learned in 62 years in this vail of tears and that is that there is little in life that is certain. Not in government, not in relationships, and certainly not in electrical tools. George W, Pat Robertson or Steve Jobs may tell you otherwise. There're salesmen.

[Norman Bernstein]

What I objected to is your statement that, "My wife produces and edits video... so a Mac is absolutely necessary...." This statement is pure unadulterated cow puckey. Nonsense

OK. Technically, you can edit video on a PC... strategically and operationally, there are reasons (which I've pointed out) why the studio is Mac-based.

Actually, I think you're barking up the wrong tree, as far as a 'Mac bias' is concerned. I think Macs are really cool. I also think they're way-overhyped.

Back in the early 90's, I had both a Mac and a PC in my office. The Mac was needed to do good 'words and pictures' documents, and the PC was needed to do engineering work. By the late 90's, a Windows machine was every bit as good for most 'words and pictures' work, although it's also true that many hardcore graphics pros liked the Mac better.

Nowadays, my own office is all PC.... because the work I do is largely technical, the applications I use are available for PC only, and Windows is way more than adequate for the 'words and pictures' work I need to do in my professional practice. I couldn't use a Mac even if I wanted to, because of the engineering apps.

What I'm trying to say is that I have absolutely no prejudice with regard to the PC/Mac wars. One machine is appropriate for some folks, and the other machine is appropriate for other folks.

Nowadays when people ask me which to buy, and presuming that all they're going to be doing is light ofice applications, web browsing, and email, I tell them to buy PC.... for no other reason than price.

[pcford]

What I'm trying to say is that I have absolutely no prejudice with regard to the PC/Mac wars. One machine is appropriate for some folks, and the other machine is appropriate for other folks.
But you seem to believe the oldest line of hooey around.

My former video partner bought a Mac because it was the "best, easiest to learn and fastest machine around." At least, according to the fanboys he asked. It cost around $6000. I had my IT guy build a PC according to my specifications and it cost a third of that. Of course, my machine does not have the stylish 23" monitor. I do have dual 17" monitors though. He never learned to use the computer beyond email. He edits by bouncing tape back and forth between two cameras. One used to be our camera no more. Ok, the guy's an idiot; that's why I don't work with him anymore.

All.....I repeat, all, I am saying is that Macs AND PCs both make great video editing machines. Look for the true believer gleam in the eye of anyone that tells you otherwise.

And at this point I bow out of this chapter of the Mac/PC religious wars.
[/quote]

[Norman Bernstein]

But you seem to believe the oldest line of hooey around.

*lol*

For a guy who claims to eschew the PC/Mac religious wars, you're certainly giving a pretty damned good imitation of a true believer :D

[KNOCKABOUT]

external hard drive

[Nels]

All I know is this - everything always works on my Mac - video editing (iMovie), photo editing (iPhoto), audio editing (Garageband, iTunes) and mixing all three together (iMovie, Keynote, etc.). I didn't have to add any software or peripheral devices. Everything came "in the box" - including camera and microphone (iChat). It's a MacBook Pro - $2,000 for 15" screen. I think you would easily pay that much for a comparably equipped PC (that's alot of software) - but then the apps / peripherals on the PC wouldn't ever get along right. Just my experience...

[Beowolf]

Admittedly, I got bored with the barbs so I quit reading as closely as I should have about halfway through this thread, but...

Does your Sony camera have a "Fire Wire" (DV?) output on it? I have a set of iBooks in my classroom and a couple of Sony Camcorders that we use to do a couple of video lab reports and some data collection each year. Transfer from the camera to the iBook is pretty simple. (We use iMovie.)

Of course, DV is a memory hog, so it could be that Sony compromised with MPEG in order to enable them to use a hard drive instead of Hi8 tape or something of that type of storage. In other words, the video that you download may be fairly disappointing in terms of quality and editability (Is that a word?)

Just my $.02

Jeff

[BrianW]

Wow, that was not expected! :)

I was just hoping to avoid future Windows upgrade problems and virus attacks.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

I've seen it happen on other platforms too... on my Windows based Sony Viao, AVI files lost their audio track when played back through certain applications. It's because of the codec that was used to create the AVI is different than the codec that was used to try to play the file. The only way to deal with it would be to convert the file to another format or to use another codec (something like Adobe Premiere will let you chose the codec it will use to save the file when you start up a new project).

My camera and computer seem to like the codecs that came with the pre-installed software used to capture the video from the camera through the firewire and export it back to the camera when finished editing. That is probably the extra $100 piece you're expected to buy (came bundled with my Viao).

Another alternative is to "play" the video in the disk-based cam-corder and "record" the video on your minDV. I don't know if it would let you make a firewire connection between the cameras (maybe), but at least you could do it through analog video cables.

You would lose a tiny bit of quality by transfering the video through analog, however if the source is MPEG then it is probably pretty minimal quality anyway and you shouldn't notice the difference. Then, you can use the regular camera to download to the Mac and have a backup tape to boot!

[Norman Bernstein]

All I know is this - everything always works on my Mac - video editing (iMovie), photo editing (iPhoto), audio editing (Garageband, iTunes) and mixing all three together (iMovie, Keynote, etc.). I didn't have to add any software or peripheral devices. Everything came "in the box" - including camera and microphone (iChat). It's a MacBook Pro - $2,000 for 15" screen. I think you would easily pay that much for a comparably equipped PC (that's alot of software) - but then the apps / peripherals on the PC wouldn't ever get along right. Just my experience...

As much as I'm truly 'nuetral' and not 'religious' about the PC/Mac debate, I don't think that's really true. $1100 or so buys you a PC laptop with essentially equivalent performance (CPU speed, HD space, RAM, peripherals like DVD-RW). As for the 'apps', most PC's come with bundled apps that do nearly the same things as the ones you quote, and/or you can download freeware or very-low-cost shareware apps that are nearly equivalent. My last laptop came with the Ulead suite of video and graphics tools, for example, and while they might not have the 'cool' factor of iMovie, etc., they were certainly quite functional.

The Mac has the advantage of 'seamless integration' of the apps, in the sense that Apple pre-installs them and they all play nicely together, whereas PC apps that you get for free tend to look like a hodge-podge, for the uninitiated or less sophisticated users.... but the functionality is the same, if not the look and feel.

Whether a nearly 100% additional cost is worth it for a Mac is a matter of user preference. All of this assumes, by the way, that the buyer has no industry specific or professional reasons to buy one over the other. In my own business, the specialized apps are all PC, so I don't have a choice.

[Michael s/v Sannyasin]

That's why I like Sony. As far as I know, Apple doesn't make a whole lot of video cameras, neither does Microsoft. Sony makes cameras and computers both with compatible firewire ports, and then ensures that they install compatible software front to back for video capture and editing, sound editing, mixing etc.

In my opinion, Sony is more qualified than most companies to ensure that seamless integration :-)

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

OK I just had to post this on this thread :D :D :D

http://movies.apple.com/movies/us/apple/getamac/betterresults_480x376.mov

[Norman Bernstein]

Follow-up to the original post that started this thread:

My wife decided that, rather than contend with the software issues, she would return the camera... and bought a similar Sony camcorder with mini-DV tape. Ironically, this one did come with Mac-compatible software, although it wouldn't install in her PowerBook last night.

No matter, since the cam records onto mini-DV. The studios' 3 edit suites (2 G5-based, 1 iMac-based) are each equipped with a professional DV deck; mini-DV's can be snapped into an adaptor to fit into them.

[pcford]

Follow-up to the original post that started this thread:

My wife decided that, rather than contend with the software issues, she would return the camera... and bought a similar Sony camcorder with mini-DV tape. Ironically, this one did come with Mac-compatible software, although it wouldn't install in her PowerBook last night.

No matter, since the cam records onto mini-DV. The studios' 3 edit suites (2 G5-based, 1 iMac-based) are each equipped with a professional DV deck; mini-DV's can be snapped into an adaptor to fit into them.

Great. Probably the best way out.

If you can, I'd appreciate knowing the model she chose. My "snapshot" camera has died and I need to get another.

[Norman Bernstein]

Great. Probably the best way out.

If you can, I'd appreciate knowing the model she chose. My "snapshot" camera has died and I need to get another.

I don't know, offhand... she paid around $750 for it, and the best news is that it supports Sony's incredible Bluetooth remote microphone, whose sound is nothing short of amazing.

We thought it ironic that the Mac software it came with wouldn't run on her brand new PowerBook, though.

[pcford]

thanks, I'll check it out. Microphone sounds neat.

[George Roberts]

As I was purchasing some software/hardware for a rather large computer I found out your problem ....

Your Mpeg decoder is not the correct one. Yes $100 is a reasonable price.