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Chris Coose
10-07-2006, 08:34 AM
Virginia's Rumbling Rebels.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20061023/moser

Easy to dislike the incumbent and hard to dislike the underdog.
For those fence sitting republican's who constantly bitch about what the dems have in store, be looking and listening to Jim Webb types.

Garrett Lowell
10-09-2006, 12:25 PM
So far I'm not liking how each is running their little smear campaigns. I haven't made up my mind yet on for whom to vote in this one. I like and dislike them both. I do agree with this:

"I think both parties have been taken over by elites," Webb says over his shoulder after he's done perusing his speech. "The natural base of the Democratic Party, working-class folks, looked at both parties and saw they weren't going to get any more help on economic issues. "


But I don't think he knows the "natural base of the Democratic Party". Particularly not in VA.

Chris Coose
10-09-2006, 01:11 PM
Glad to hear from a voter in the great state of Virginia.
Even though the Nation is a primary source for me it's best to catch the pulse directly.
How do you manage the macaca business, Garrett (I'm not looking to hook here, I am interested in your perception) ?
To me the guy needs to be pasturized.

LeeG
10-09-2006, 01:17 PM
is there a "natural base" of the dems in Va?

Garrett Lowell
10-09-2006, 04:13 PM
For the 'macaca' message, I can't and won't defend that. I've followed it pretty closely, though. I don't think it was an intentional thing, but I don't know for sure. I learned the hard way that if you don't know what something means, don't say it in mixed company. I would think Allen knows this, but maybe he really did think he was making up a word. I empathize with Allen on that; I'm as good as the next idiot at saying precisely the wrong thing at the exact worse time, and unintentionally at that.

There is a natural base of Dems in VA. If the Dem candidate is good, the base shows up to vote. If the candidate is not, they abstain. If the Dem candidate is really good, he'll win. (See our current governor)

The pulse here is that most middle-of-the-road voters like me are tired of the mud slinging. We'll see if that message gets across.

ljb5
10-09-2006, 08:04 PM
Forget the 'maccaca' thing...

How do you feel about the N-word stuff.... and the Confederate flag stuff in his California yearbook, and the noose hanging from his office tree... and the the way he flew off the handle when someone asked about his Jewish heritage, as if that were something to be ashamed of?

ljb5
10-09-2006, 08:15 PM
Oh, here's a good one:

http://www.thenation.com/images/special/GeorgeAllenCofCC.0.jpg

That's George Allen along with the guys from the CCC.

I'm sure you know what the CCC is, but just in case you were wondering, they're a White Supremacist organization (kinda rhymes with KKK, don't it?).

Their official statement of purpose includes: "We also oppose all efforts to mix the races of mankind."

Chris Coose
10-09-2006, 08:39 PM
Done yet?

Chris Coose
10-09-2006, 08:49 PM
Fu*k You.

ljb5
10-09-2006, 09:07 PM
Just to inject a little perspective here, Mike...

Byrd was in the Klan for about two years nearly sixty years ago. He has since apologized and recanted. Sadly, that was the result of his very limited upbringing in a rural, white, poverty stricken area of the country where that type of thing was common.

When he improved himself in the world, he found that he no longer felt that way and changed his position.

I'm not defending him, just pointing out the circumstances.

In comparison, George Allen is much younger -- he came to age in a time when people no longer did that sort of thing. He grew up in California wher that belief system wasn't common.

He has never acknowledge it. He has never apologized. He has never repented. He continues to say racist things and act in a racist way.

ljb5
10-09-2006, 09:47 PM
LMAO!!!! just like all those redneck, ingut bigots that live in the red states. They can't help themselves, raised on hog jawls, pickled pig feets, and lard and buttermilk biscuits. Thank God, I am free at last, from the chains that have bound me, by a very prominent wizzkid Democrat, from the upbringing of my yuts.:D :D


On this subject, Oyster, I will gladly defer to your superior knowledge.

Since you're such an authority on the subject, won't you kindly describe for us the situation of race relations in a small coal mining town in southern West Virginia in the 1920s?

I imagine it was a wee bit different than my upbringing.

ljb5
10-09-2006, 09:50 PM
By the way, the NAACP awarded Byrd a 100% rating for the 108th Congress.

I suppose you're going to tell us that the NAACP doesn't know what's good for them. Do you think we should let them vote on their own... or do you think you should decide what's good for them?

LeeG
10-10-2006, 05:13 AM
Wapo article,,Allan calls Webb a cutter and runner, Webbs only son is a Marine Corporal in Iraq, Webb says Allan is a dumb republican . I think I'll send $25 to Webbs campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100901332_2.html


Allen has accused Webb of wanting to "cut and run" from Iraq. Allen says that he hopes U.S. troops can come home soon but that they must continue to fight in Iraq to prevent terrorists from operating there
.
Allen, who stumped Webb this summer during the first debate with a question about a port project on Craney Island in the Hampton Roads area, was left almost speechless Monday when Webb queried him about the Senkaku Islands off the coast of Taiwan. "I'll have to study it," a clearly baffled Allen said. Webb then lectured him about the island's strategic importance to Southeast Asia.

The candidates offered starkly different assessments of the proposed Virginia constitutional amendment on November's ballot that would ban same-sex marriage and civil unions.

ljb5
10-10-2006, 05:45 AM
Looks like Allen forgot to declare his stock options. Ooops.

LeeG
10-10-2006, 06:27 AM
Cheers(insert toothy smiley face)

troutman
10-10-2006, 10:03 AM
ouch

uncas
10-10-2006, 10:25 AM
Time for Thomas Jefferson to step in.
He felt that only land owners should vote to keep the rabble out. Seems as though, 200 yrs later he might have been right.
LOL

Garrett, you have obviously been swamped with neg ads. They have just started here. I'm not looking forward to the next month.

Ed Harrow
10-10-2006, 11:26 AM
Time for Thomas Jefferson to step in.
He felt that only land owners should vote to keep the rabble out. Seems as though, 200 yrs later he might have been right.
LOL

...

??? That doesn't sound like the Jefferson I think I know... I could believe that of Adams, however. Do you have a source?

"Let every man who fights or pays, exercise his just and equal right in their election." (Thomas Jefferson letter to Samuel Kercheval, 12 July 1816)

"Men by their constitutions are naturally divided into two parties: (1) Those who fear and distrust the people, and wish to draw all powers from them into the hands of the higher classes. (2) Those who identify themselves with the people, have confidence in them, cherish and consider the most honest and safe, although not the most wise depository of the public interests. " (Thomas Jefferson letter to Henry Lee, 10 August 1824)

uncas
10-10-2006, 12:41 PM
Ed Harrow
I am looking into this. Have just finished one bio on Jefferson.
He is an interesting character.. often opposed to slavery but unwilling to free his slaves. A delimma he was well aware.
Also, as you know, he was very much in favor of the French Revolution and yet was revolted by the rabble that began to run the revolution. Another delemma.
There is nothing really, if one googles specifically outlining his thoughts. However, what I have seen is that the Dem/Rep party was for farmers and that ilk which would suggest that they were landowners. Nothing regarding property as not being a necessary requirement really hit the fan until the late 1820's. And even then, it was replaced by the requirement of a voter, in order to vote, had to pay taxes.
Jefferson, like so many was basically a Federalist until he resigned in 93 as Sec. of State.

Garrett Lowell
10-15-2006, 08:26 AM
Forget the 'maccaca' thing...

How do you feel about the N-word stuff.... and the Confederate flag stuff in his California yearbook, and the noose hanging from his office tree... and the the way he flew off the handle when someone asked about his Jewish heritage, as if that were something to be ashamed of?
See, this is just what I'm talking about (the mudslinging). I feel the same way about it as I feel about the 1979 Webb article calling the U.S. Naval Academy "a horny woman's dream". I would ask you how you, ljb5, feel about Webb writing that, but I won't. It's irrelevant to the situation at hand, in my opinion. Right now, Webb and Allen are in a dead heat. However, when a Dem wins in this state, it's with the women's vote. If Webb hadn't written that garbage in '79, he'd have a certain lead. If Allen hadn't made the stupid "macaca" remark, he'd have a certain lead. 64% of all voters in VA are disgusted at the negativity (I'm guessing the other 36% are either party's "core" voters, the fools who live for that slime). So, we'll see how it plays out. I get the feeling that Allen has a bit of an advantage when the issues are actually discussed. But I may be wrong on that.

LeeG
10-15-2006, 08:31 AM
good time to see the Robin Williams movie,,it's only ok and a bit moralistic but timely.

Garrett Lowell
10-15-2006, 08:34 AM
Wapo article,,Allan calls Webb a cutter and runner, Webbs only son is a Marine Corporal in Iraq, Webb says Allan is a dumb republican . I think I'll send $25 to Webbs campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/10/09/AR2006100901332_2.html
.
Allen, who stumped Webb this summer during the first debate with a question about a port project on Craney Island in the Hampton Roads area, was left almost speechless Monday when Webb queried him about the Senkaku Islands off the coast of Taiwan. "I'll have to study it," a clearly baffled Allen said. Webb then lectured him about the island's strategic importance to Southeast Asia.

.

Well, Lee, the port project on Craney Island is an issue for Virginians, and I expect both of these men to know about it. The Senkaku Islands don't matter one hoot to the issues that Virginians face.

ljb5
10-15-2006, 12:56 PM
I feel the same way about it as I feel about the 1979 Webb article calling the U.S. Naval Academy "a horny woman's dream". I would ask you how you, ljb5, feel about Webb writing that, but I won't.

I think that was an unfortunately vulgar phrase -- but you'd have to take it drastically out of context to smear Webb with it.

This is what his article actually said:


I believe most of what has happened over the past decade in the name of sexual equality has been good. It is good to see women doctors and lawyers and executives. I can visualize a woman President. If I were British, I would have supported Margaret Thatcher. But no benefit to anyone can come from women serving in combat.


There is a place for women in our military, but not in combat.

That may be a controversial position, but it's hardly misogynistic. In fact, I believe it's still the majority position among Republicans today.

Webb's problem is that, if you take one thing he said out of context, it sounds bad.

Allen's problem is that, for much of what he says, you can't possibly put it in a context where it sounds good.


Allen has a long history of racial insensitivity (to put it mildly). Webb wrote one phrase 27 years ago. I don't think that's equal.

Ed Harrow
10-15-2006, 10:12 PM
Ed Harrow
I am looking into this. ...

Read up on Adams defending the Redcoats after the Boston 'Massacre'.

Rick Starr
10-16-2006, 11:31 AM
Read up on Adams defending the Redcoats after the Boston 'Massacre'.

Viewed in context, and absent the propoganda machine of the time, most people would have agreed with Adams, I suspect.

Funny how, today, the shoe is on the other foot.

Garrett Lowell
10-16-2006, 08:47 PM
I think, ljb5, what you're whitewashing there is that Webb was against women in the Naval Academy, despite the "unfortunately vulgar phrase". My wife doesn't see it as an unfortunately vulgar phrase, though. She sees it for what it really was. However, I don't feel it has any bearing on the issues in VA and it will not affect my choice, just like the stupid things Allen has said and done in his past. I'll vote for the man I feel is best for the state, and at this point I haven't made up my mind. Nor have a lot of the voters here.

There's a guy named Moran in Alexandria. You should look him up if you really care. Alexandrians seem to think he's their guy, so good for them.

The race between Allen and Webb is still going to come down to the women's vote. I think using this election as a tide-marker for the rest of the country's pulse is a mistake for the Dems. But, like I said, we'll see.

Garrett Lowell
10-16-2006, 08:48 PM
Remember Garrett, Robert Byrd, an openly recist individual, gets a free ride and a pass from some people, as a reformed racist:rolleyes: member while still slinging racist remarks in 2001, being reelected many times over. Its very hard to discuss issues with someone that just slings mud and continues to drive on to the next agenda oriented issue, or what is known as talking points for this week. Just pick the topic, anyone, and you will notice this pattern. Remember, Allen has served in political office while carrying all of those racists thoughts, you know for a very long time. Who knew all of this and kept it hidden from the educated voter until just this election?;) I smell a big coverup that has taken place, don't you?
That's funny, Mike!

Meerkat
10-30-2006, 07:39 PM
Norman, here is an example of what one side here feels about disent and patriotism when its expressed here. :DYou don't now crap about patriotism beyond wrapping yourself in the flag.

LeeG
10-30-2006, 07:41 PM
"his open portrayal in book form of his fantansies, with the author from Virginia being Webb?"

Yes Erster, the book is recommended by USMC for officers training curriculum. Something to do with Vietnam, a country we were involved with 30-40yrs ago.
Peace with honor.
Stay the course.
Screw the pooch.

ljb5
10-31-2006, 12:05 AM
Yes Erster, the book is recommended by USMC for officers training curriculum. Something to do with Vietnam, a country we were involved with 30-40yrs ago.

Millions of people died, including 52,000 Americans....

That's okay.

Writing about the war and killing people is okay.

Writing about the emotional devestation is not okay. :rolleyes:

The tragic thing about that excerpt from Webb's book is that he didn't make it up. It was something he actually witnessed in the horrible aftermath of the war. Like a good journalist, he reported on reality.

In contrast, Scotter Libby wrote about a 10 year old girl being raped by a bear. He made that up on his own. What sick, pathetic process is going on in his head?

Chris Coose
11-09-2006, 09:21 PM
Magine this?
What was it that happened in W. Virginia?
The racist incumbent got 64%.

Massachusetts? The girl killer got 69%.

Thanks dubbya.