Civil war battle: No guns, no flags

[Dale R. Hamilton]

Well I can't believe it. Seems the height of political correctness, or maybe just plain stupidity hes been reached. Our neighboring little town of Franklin, Tennessee had a big civil war battle in 1864, which they commemorate every year with a re-enactment. But this year, the town fathers announced a new, more sensitive policy. There would be no Confederate battle flags allowed, and, AND- no guns allowed. Yup, no more 6' long 200 year old antiques can be carried in the reinactment of a battle. I guess the re-enactors will just stand around- that is such re-enactors that will show up for such a farce. Maybe they should just use cardboard cutouts- and move them around now and again. Only in the state that gave us the road-kill bill a few years back.

[uncas]

Dale
I'm not surprised. I know of a lot of historical painters who are commissioned to paint battles of the Civil War. The difference is now, those commissioning said paintings do not want to see any battle flags, or anything else which may upset the viewer. Just a lot of people romping around on the lawn.

[brad9798]

Next year the re-enactment will be replaced by a single game of Stratego. :(

Seriously though, why have it then?

That is about the lamest thing I've ever heard with regard to PCness.

EMBARASSING for all Americans ... and our heritage.

Shame on them.

I'll bet it will be a 'real' re-enactment again next year ... there will obviously be some outrage from the citizens.

[uncas]

Brad
They are actually kinda fun. The re-enactments try as best as possible to be historically correct which makes them a worthy teaching experience.
I have not been to the one in Franklin...But, I have been to one or two elsewhere.

and I don't think it is just an American thing.

[brad9798]

You misunderstand me, Jamie.

The lame part is NOT having guns/flags ...

If it's folks standing around in blue and grey, why have it?

It is a farce if not historically accurate.

BTW- I grew up near Jefferson Barracks ... and saw many awesome re-enactments there over the years. Excellent learning oppty. for the kids to visit the Barracks.

Those guys are as passionate about their CW clubs as we are about wooden boats!

Heck, I still (from time to time) pull out my great-great-great-great grandfather's CW letters, hat, medals, and other paraphenalia that my grandmother still has.

Hmmm ... When is that antiques road show coming to town again? Probably worth a fortune.

[uncas]

Sorry Brad..I just went by your last post. Not the one before.

[brad9798]

I only had that one other post at the time ... now I have three on this thread! :confused: :)

[uncas]

Well, Brad..I guess thats why it makes sense, on occasion, to quote a previous thread that you are either agreeing with or criticizing. If you read yours alone without some info or basis for your comment, it comes out sounding as though...umm. you think re-enactments are rediculous.
It's called taking something out of context. :)
Ane we all do it oall of the time.

[geeman]

That is so pitiful.When will this PC crap end?

[sv Lorelei]

When we've effectively replaced:

"At 10:30 AM the Confederate militia mounted a bloody attack, charging across the field amidst a withering fire from the Union positions. Within 25 minutes over 400 men on both sides were dead and an it's estimated that an additional 900 were wounded"

with

"So kids, that's when the guys in the gray suits got really upset and charged across the field making it clear that they felt really strongly that the blue suited guys should go home. A lot of them got boo boos and had to go to the hospital."

Doesn't that teach kids a lot more of a valuable lesson?

[geeman]

LOL , thats funny! , and we're close to being there.

[Meerkat]

Yeah, imagine wars with no flags and no guns. Few bodies, just a few broken bones and a lot of black eyes. Beer afterwards in the big tent. ;)

[uncas]

I remember visitng a battle field. Well, it was a small segment of a very long defense line around Richmond. The battle field consists of only about three hundred acres because the rest of it has been bought up for development.
There was one stretch... two facing trenches approximately 150 yds apart. One one side the blue, and on the other the red ( oops I mean gray :) )
In one hour of fighting, there were 8,000 bodies between the two trenches. Hard to imagine that many in one spot created in 1 hour. That 8,000 is roughly the same number of Am. troops at Yorktown.

[Dale R. Hamilton]

well Mayor Miller (Franklin) has reaped the wild wind it seems, and he's furously backpedaling. No! No! I didn't mean ALL flags, only the Conferedate battle flag- yeah the one with the stars and bars. And oh yes guns- I didn't mean historic or replica weapons- they are alright- maybe just AK47's and Barrett 50's are banned from the battle of Franklin. Then there's all the Historical Societies who are threatening to sue Franklin for deniel of free speach. Classic example of a two-faced politician caught in an nincanpoop situation and now trying to lie his way out of it.

[uncas]

Dale
Must be an election year... :)

[Dale R. Hamilton]

well Mayor Miller (Franklin) seems to have reaped the wild wind. He's furously backpedaling admidst threats of being sued for denial of free speach. No No I didn't mean ALL flags -only the confederate battle flag- yeah the one with stars and bars. We can use the white one- and oh yes -guns. I didn't mean ALL guns, certainly they can carry their historic and replica firearms- its just the AK47's and Barratt 50's that are baned from the re-enactment. Classic example of a two faced lying politician caught in a nincompoop position and trying to lie his way out.

[martin schulz]

http://www.wakefield.org/pleasureisland/performers/bang.jpg

;)

[brad9798]

Told you there would be outrage!

GOOD!

Bet the mayor wishes he'd never brought it up now!!!

[geeman]

I was raised in VA. As a kid we used to have "skip school day,where mom and dad would take us to Yorktown,Jamestown,And Richmond to the battle sites and museums.I've been all over each one as a kid.I learned more on those days then I would have come close to in school.My mom would explain to us as we visited what happened and why.Of course being southerners I'm sure it was slanted to the Southern point of view.LOL I learned at a very early age, (before my school mates in fact) who R.E.L. was and from moms perspective how great he was.I remember being upset because the public school "ROBERT E LEE " public school wasnt in my district.I've climbed all over cannon on the battlefield as a kid, while mom explained where they were pointing and why.I've always wanted to see a reinactment,but have never been in position to do so.I cant imagine one without the guns and proper flags that were there.

[sv Lorelei]

Interesting Geeman. When I was 10 or 11, my sister lived in Memphis and Mom & Dad shipped me off there for a week. One of the trips we made (Graceland while Elvis was still living, the Memphis Belle, etc.) was a trip to Shiloh we took a tour of the battlefield. Even at such a tender age, the sheer magnitude of the carnage that occured there as the Confederacy and the Union armys fought a smashmouth battle that left both sides depleted and little strategically accomplished, was heart rending. It was so hard to imagine this tranquil park like setting with the cherry trees just coming to blossom was virtually covered with the bodies of young men of both sides. Aside from the fun the reinactors have putting on their battles, I think it reinforces a valuable lesson in humility to know that things like that can and did happen, and happen here. That's a sentiment it's hard to extract from a High School history book.

[geeman]

I can still remember standing on those fields of battle and at the time I thought I could FEEL the sadness of battle.I could FEEL those thoughts those guys had as they defended whatever position they were trying to defend/ repel at the time.A very sobering feeling when your actually there.But extremely educating.

[uncas]

geeman
You should visit a battlefield at dawn with the fog rolling in ( or out ) and the grass is green and vibrant.
I used to go to Shiloh at five AM. God, what a place. No one there except the turkeys, the corn field and silence. A numbing experience.

[geeman]

In this area of east TENN battles were fought all over the place.When you walk in the woods here you can feel battles fought and the ghosts of people past.It's almost a religious experience.

[sv Lorelei]

I think its a feeling of connectivity, though I wonder how many people think that deeply on it. We have a book published shortly after the civil war by the father of a young officer from Amherst who was killed in a skirmish late in the war. It's his son's biography and eulogy more or less, but it is also a remarkable snapshot of the motivation and sense of purpose for participating in that war, and the conditions it was fought in.

Similarly when I'm aboard the Charles Morgan at Mystic I get a similar feeling. This was commerce more than adventure. It was contemporary when guys were sleeping in those bunks, and as good as it got out there; and like being a coal miner still is today, it was both necessary, dangerous and commonplace to get one's living that way. I think we condescend to think our predecessors were more simplistic than we are, I'm of the opinion that they weren't. They just had different priorities.

[geeman]

Kind of like what you feel when you pick up an old tool. In my case a tool my grandfather used when he was young.( he was a carpenter that retired 3 times and each time was called back to work due to his employer couldnt find people with his experience or work ethic to get the houses built). My grandfather built only one style of house.His design His WAY.All by hand ,all well built.You bought a Releigh Mason house, you got what he wanted you to have.But you got a house that would stand, a long time.Handling his tools even if I'm not building something is something I enjoy.

[Dale R. Hamilton]

connectivity- thats good. I feel the same. I'm retired US Army and the only battlefield experience I had was Gulf War I. This for us anyway, was a piece of cake. Most of our kills were a mile off or so- we were safe most of the time. But when I think of these dear lads at Shiloh- of the horrors they must have faced- knowing that any wound at all would result in amputation at best- and death in most cases. How many must have laid on this earth hemorrhaging there life's blood with no chance of being picked up and saved is very humbling for me. How terrible to sacrifice this chance to connect with these men for the sake of political correctness. Franklin city father should feel ashamed.

[geeman]

No better way to help understand real war then to stand on a battlefield and wonder if your standing on a spot where some poor soul died, if your standing on his blood soaked spot so to speak.

[Art Read]

Visit Anteitem on the anniversary at twilight at least once in your life... The locals there distribute one paper lantern across the battlefield for each soldier who fell... on that one day... Twenty three thousand some odd paper lanterns glowing in the dusk make an impression that is unforgettable. The silence is pervasive and profound.

[Phillip Allen]

Visit Anteitem on the anniversary at twilight sometime... The locals there distribute one paper lantern across the battlefield for each soldier who fell. Twenty thousand odd paper lanterns glowing at dusk make an impression that is unforgettable. The silence is pervasive and profound.

It's awe inspiring just sittin here!

[geeman]

I've heard of that anniversary Art.I can imagine the silence,,,,is deafening.

[sv Lorelei]

when I think of these dear lads at Shiloh- of the horrors they must have faced- knowing that any wound at all would result in amputation at best- and death in most cases.

Dale, I think they viewed going as an all-or-nothing thing. My ancestors weren't there. I remember in 1968 my uncle surprised my Grandmother with a trip home to Ireland. He was crestfallen when she looked at him and said "Why the hell would I want to go back there?"

When she left she never expected to see that place again....and that was okay. When she had the opportunity to return, everyone she had known there was dead. I can only imagine that that is the margin of the folks that have served, only too often compressed into a matter of years.

Once or twice my Dad has spoken of losing crews and being shot down a couple of times (he was a crew chief on a C47 in WWII). It has never been a place he wanted to go. For a guy who has encouraged us to be open and let go of the bad stuff....there's a lot of hurt behind that wall....

When I step out onto a field of battle....there is a profound sadness....and an extremity of honor and sacrifice that I don't believe that we who have never experience it can fully contemplate. And when I think that in Dad's case anyway...those "older guys" were in their late twenties and thirties, it is indeed sobering. I owe those guys a lot...for the familys they left behind...and those they didn't have. The ones at Gettysburg...the ones in Flanders...the guys who held the line in Bastogne... some of the same who laid it all out in Korea a few years later. The guys who endured Vietnam and came out the other side...and all the conflicts since.

I don't know if what they thought they were fighting for at the time justifies what we have now. But I'm as grateful as hell that we had those guys when we needed them.

[Sam F]

Dale - A WBTS reenactment without flags or guns? That's simply amazing!
What will they think of next? Schools without education? Oh, wait... :D

[uncas]

Yup, Biology books are being replaced by Gideon's Bibles.
Now if only we can teach our kids the three "Rs".

[Dale R. Hamilton]

well said sv Lorelei.

[LeeG]

No better way to help understand real war then to stand on a battlefield and wonder if your standing on a spot where some poor soul died, if your standing on his blood soaked spot so to speak.

Not sure about a way to understand it but I know what you mean about being present in a place like that. I had that feeling in Manassas. On the other hand feeling the earths presence without a human overtone is a bit more humbling. Like being in the Sierras where rock and sharp edges don't hold people.

[uncas]

LeeG
Ya gotta go to Antietam.. Manassas really doesn't exist anymore with the development, the traffic, etc surrounding it. It loses something. I was not that impressed and I did not have the same feelings there as I did at Antietam.Now Antietam is in the middle of no where. A visit at dawn can not be described sufficiently or with the symbolism it deserves.

[JTA]

http://www.nps.gov/anti/photosmultimedia/gardnerphotos.htm#

click Slide Show.

Jack

[Sam F]

Yup, Biology books are being replaced by Gideon's Bibles.
Now if only we can teach our kids the three "Rs".

Uncas, is that what you think or is that just a feeling?

[Sam F]

I have long ago given up assuming that recent college graduates know anything at all - other than pop "culture" at which they are incredibly, if uselessly, proficient.

But don't take my word for it. The Intercollegiate Studies Institute recently administered a civics test to college students. The results were not encouraging
(Below is from SFGate and naturally has a California emphasis)


Seniors at UC Berkeley, the nation's premier public university, got an F in their basic knowledge of American history, government and politics in a new national survey, and students at Stanford University didn't do much better, getting a D.

Out of 50 schools surveyed, Cal ranked 49th and Stanford 31st in how well they are increasing student knowledge about American history and civics between the freshman and senior years. And they're not alone among major universities in being fitted for a civics dunce cap.

Other poor performers in the study were Yale, Duke, Brown and Cornell universities. Johns Hopkins University in Baltimore was the tail-ender behind Cal, ranking 50th. The No. 1 ranking went to unpretentious Rhodes College in Memphis.

The study was conducted by the University of Connecticut's department of public policy and the nonprofit education organization Intercollegiate Studies Institute. Researchers sampled 14,000 students at 50 schools, large and small.

The aim was to determine how well the colleges are teaching their students the basics of government, politics and history -- the bedrocks of good citizenship.

Beyond the rankings, the study found that across the board -- from elite universities to less-selective colleges -- the typical senior did poorly on the civics literacy exam, scoring below 70 percent. This would be a D or F on a basic test using a conventional grading scale.

That shows, the researchers said, that the students don't have -- and the universities generally aren't teaching -- the basic understanding of America's history and founding principles that they need to be good citizens.

It is a crisis, the report warns.
"It is at a point in history in this country where it has probably never been more important," said Eugene Hickok, a former U.S. deputy secretary of education and a member of the Intercollegiate Studies Institute. "The study tells us we have a rising generation of bright, intelligent citizens that won't have the knowledge they need to be informed citizens. We are really only a generation or two away from a republic in pretty big trouble."

The study was conducted in 2005 by asking freshmen and seniors to answer 60 multiple-choice questions in the subject areas of American history, government, America and the world, and the market economy.

It then compared the averages from the two classes at each school to determine how much more seniors knew than freshmen -- indicating how well the university was doing in increasing student knowledge.

The survey found that more than half of students could not correctly identify the century (the 17th) when the first American colony was established at Jamestown.

A majority of students also could not identify the Baath party as the main source of Saddam Hussein's political support in Iraq.

At UC Berkeley, the results showed freshmen knew more than soon-to-graduate seniors. Freshmen scored an average of 60.4, and seniors scored an average of 54.8. That earned Cal a failing grade, the researchers said.

Rankings from best to worst:

1. Rhodes College

2. Colorado State University

3. Calvin College

4. Grove City College

5. University of Colorado, Boulder

6. Spring Arbor University

7. University of New Mexico

8. University of Mobile

9. Florida Memorial University

10. Central Connecticut State University

...

31. Stanford University

...

40. University of Florida

41. Wofford College

42. University of Virginia

43. Georgetown University

44. Yale University

45. State University of West Georgia

46. Duke University

47. Brown University

48. Cornell University

49. UC Berkeley

50. Johns Hopkins University

The report is available at www.americancivicliteracy.org.

[uncas]

SamF

It's a feeeeling..a feeling... :) Although having been in the trenches our educational system needs a lot of help.

[Sam F]

SamF

It's a feeeeling..a feeling...

Yeah, it's easy to tell.


Although having been in the trenches our educational system needs a lot of help.

I have read that the US education system is the world's most expensive.
Sounds like it hasn't been money well spent.

[uncas]

SamF
Even when I was in college back before the flood, the first year was basically a rehash of high school.
And much to my horror, I have had to deal with some seniors at the local highschool when I was working for an environmental nonprofit. I have posted the scenerio before...A very sad state of affairs. Not only the poor grammar, spelling, etc on letters I received but also the excuses I was given by the board of education for the lack of spelling, grammar etc. In fact, the letter from the pres of the board of Education was almost worth framing. Would have but it was so sad.

[Sam F]

I attended high school in antediluvian days too. At our school system, the superintendent (with whom I had a "conversation" one time) was quite a specimen. His sole qualification for the job was that he was the former poultry plant manager.
But he was well paid! :D

[uncas]

In the past, I have offered my service to the town of Berlin to be a member of various commissions; The Park Commission, the Historical Commission. I sent in a resume with my qualifiacations.. Unheard of before. No one had ever done that. I was not chosen... My God, I might have had some experience there. I asked how people were chosen to be on them. No response. I asked the lady who answered the phone whether she though experience would make a difference. No response.
It comes down to political favors. John at the local used car dealership was a better choice.

[geeman]

I know Uncas,it's done that way in this lil podunk town too.It's not about what you can do or your qualifications,it's about WHO YOU KNOW.Or what your last name is, who your related to.

[uncas]

The sad thing is Geeman, I live next to a town park. I walk there everyday. The place is a disaster....But no one cares and no one tries to do anything to make it a place worth visiting. All they care about is if the lawn is mowed.
I may be old, I may be set in my ways, but I know a disaster when I see one. Hell, there are so many ways to improve these parks. So many ideas that have merit and are not too expensive to intitute.
It is really sad.... But, that is life I suppose.