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uncas
10-04-2006, 08:05 AM
It was early greanted so I did not hear the entire clip on PLR.
What I did hear; the US attempted to send approximately 70 detainees with ties to England at Gitmo back to England. The British Gov. refused them with the statement that they were not tech. Brits.
I could be off on this. Did anyone else hear it?

LeeG
10-04-2006, 08:14 AM
nope, but it sounds possible, weren't there Chinese prisoners that we wanted to return by China said no thanks?

uncas
10-04-2006, 08:16 AM
I just hope that people do not think I'm looking for an argument. Just clarification.
Damn, I wish I wasn't listening to the news at 430am.

uncas
10-04-2006, 08:20 AM
US owes them something by way of compensation?

I think that would open the biggest can of worms ever put in a can opener. Our entire US history is filled with incidents where individuals and races have been put under the heel so to speak. Slavery, Indians, Japanese concentration camps ( although we have given them some sort of compensation ). Damn, it is a long list Norman.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-04-2006, 08:27 AM
I heard it yesterday (Uncas, your radio is slow), seems to be a complex tale where none of them are technically Brit subjects but some might be if they waited a while and kept up the residency....

Hey - maybe they could be Cubans...

troutman
10-04-2006, 08:29 AM
Stuck in traffic this AM listening to the disgusting, Pinko NPR they did mention that there are 140 guests at Gitmo who can go but no one will have them. Maybe those you reference are in that group. Remember when Castro sent us his criminals in that Marial boat lift thing? Maybe we just open the gate and let those 140 loose in Cuba?

uncas
10-04-2006, 08:30 AM
However, there's a difference here. Blacks and Indians have most certainly suffered in our history.... but today, they enjoy the benefits and freedoms that citizenship in this country affords. We all come together and are part of the union, despite the past....

Norman, these groups don't appear to think so. I hear such words as disenfranchized, etc. all the time. That does suggest that THEY do not feel they are given the same freedoms and rights as others.

And out of curioisty, what kind of compensation...

Brian Palmer
10-04-2006, 08:30 AM
I heard it this morning and this is what I recall:

The detainees were British residents, but it cannot be confirmed that they were British citizens.

The U.S. wanted assurances that the detainees would be detained if returned to Britain, or they would be subject to 24 hour surveillance.

-- Brian

uncas
10-04-2006, 08:34 AM
Thanks Brian. That makes sense.

Based on some of the comments though I find it interesting to note that on previous threads, formites suggested letting those at Gitmo go. Based on these comments here. Even if we did, could and wanted to, no one wants them. So, if we let them go, where are they gonna go?

paladin
10-04-2006, 08:39 AM
they are going straight to Al Qaeda to learn how to get even.....

TomF
10-04-2006, 08:45 AM
I agree with Norman.

If these folks were detained by mistake, they need to be returned, and compensated. We compensate people wrongly convicted of crimes ... why is this detention any different?

Pragmatically, their "home" countries may easily not be willing to take them back. I agree that ongoing surveillance would be a good thing - I suspect that if these prisoners weren't radicalized before, their incarceration may easily have made them so. Wouldn't you want to hurt someone who's jailed you unjustly, and subjected you to what in civilian life would be called abuse? These people are now threats, even if they were not before. Their Gitmo stay has created that.

As Powell said about Iraq: you break it, you fix it. Same's true here. We can argue up and down about whether descendants of slaves or descendants of Aboriginal peoples should be compensated for evils done 100-400 years ago ... but these are evils done now. To living people, whose lives are now going to be wrecked.

If compensation's not offered, then the US should brace itself for some pretty hefty litigation.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-04-2006, 08:52 AM
...
If these folks were detained by mistake, they need to be returned, and compensated. ....

Very sorry mister Kafka - it's all been a big mistake...

Nine apparently.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,,1886309,00.html

uncas
10-04-2006, 09:00 AM
Okay
So you give them a million dollars or a few more. You say here..take it. Okay, they can't go home, no one wants them. What are they gonna do with several million dollars? Spend it at the Gitmo PX?

Perhaps Chuck's comment is the best. Let them go, those who are in line with OBL will head home like hens to a roost. Micro chip them, follow them and voila..You have found OBL. Now there is a plan that might work. I mean heck, nothing we have done has.

TomF
10-04-2006, 09:11 AM
Okay
So you give them a million dollars or a few more. You say here..take it. Okay, they can't go home, no one wants them. What are they gonna do with several million dollars? Spend it at the Gitmo PX?It's a problem alright. I hope that Bush's got some bright folks trying to figure out where these people can live.

It's worth remembering that Vampire myths in eastern Europe developed to describe village men returning from fighting the Turk, having been changed by the wars. Post-traumatic stress disorder, and all that. They looked like the same people ... but some part of them had died, and they couldn't re-integrate ... sometimes acted out violent flashbacks etc. And traumatized their villages.

How many such "vampires" have been created through this process - whether the detainees, or their guards. Or returning soldiers with PTSD. On another forum yesterday, a vet 4 months back from Iraq talked about his PTSD. His suicidal feelings, his drinking. Wondered when he'd stop driving 'round the parking lot 4 times to scope out the bushes before going into the supermarket; when he'd stop driving in the centre lanes of highways to avoid the IEDs planted in the roadside lanes ...

How our various countries deal with the human fallout, experienced both by the people we've wrongfully detained and by the forces we've ourselves sent to fight ... will be the true measure.

uncas
10-04-2006, 09:14 AM
If this were a lawsuit in any US court, several million dollars, at the very least. Norman

I was just using your estimate Norman as the basis for my response. I also noticed that you assumed they could or would go home. If the countries they came from don't want them back, than that is moot.
Money won't matter much if they have no place to spend it.

uncas
10-04-2006, 09:20 AM
Firstly, I am not in agreement regarding compensation. Hence, what I think is moot.
Secondly, sure, lets give them US citizenship.. Nothing like locking a possible terrorist in the chicken coop with the chickens.. Yup..that makes a lot of sense Norman.
I'm sorry...Even if they wanted to come here, I would not want them to come here. Hrck, if they can't go home, there just might be a reason why they can't. Perhaps their home countries know more than they are letting on.

I don't see anything on the Statue of Liberty that we will take your criminals, your possible terrorists, your malcontents.

paladin
10-04-2006, 09:22 AM
This is a subject that NO ONE wants to talk about....a subject that has been happening through all American wars, and No One that hasn't been there can appreciate....
Folks that have been selected for hazardous/dangerous/highly intense assignments generally undergo various psychiatric evaluations prior to completeing their training.....most do not realize that they are being tested.......
Unfortunately, a very large portion of our military are being thrust into situations for which they have received little or ineffective training.....we just need warm bodies......and psychologically most can't handle it...
Now ....take some poor sucker that may be perfectly innocent, toss him in a hole with a bunch of sadistic bastards who may or may not have proper training for interrogation....or someone who is VERY WELL trained and couldn't care less...and you create a monster....I have heard my father and uncles talk about wwii and korea...and I saw it in Vietnam and Angola.....and it hasn't changed today....and the worst thing....the powers to be really don't give a damn one way or the other...

John of Phoenix
10-04-2006, 09:25 AM
There you have it. Thanks Chuck.

Added: But thanks to that new legislation, they'll be adding a whole new crop of detainees to this meat grinder.

uncas
10-04-2006, 11:07 AM
We were talking, Jaime, about people who have been determined to be innocent.

How were they determined to be innocent..Let me guess, interrogated..perhaps tortured Norman? If there was a crytal ball that could tell me who was innocewnt and who was not..well, okay but I don't have a crystal ball..

Look if someone is innocent, I agree. I don't think we know who is innocent and who isn't. What methods are being used to determine this. Fingerprints, found at the scene, picked up with questionable characters who do have known contacts with OBL?
I certainly can't tell. If you can, please tell the president, congress, the senate, Everyone!

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-04-2006, 11:09 AM
... people who have been determined to be innocent.
...

By exactly which process was this determination made?

Near as I can tell they are being evicted for causing political embarassment.

If the previous note about the UK refusing to take them because the USA was insisting on their continued detention - or 24*7 surveillance, then to what extent were they either;

Determined to be innocent.
or
Being released?

JimD
10-04-2006, 11:20 AM
This is a subject that NO ONE wants to talk about....a subject that has been happening through all American wars, and No One that hasn't been there can appreciate....
...

A few of us can appreciate it. And your earlier succinct post that they would go straight to al queda to learn how to get even makes perfect sense and I wouldn't blame them. They don't hate you because you are free. They hate you because of what you've done to them. Oh yeah, it's all for national security. Let them go and they'll be happy to show you what they think of your (and I mean America, not you personally) national security.

Wild Dingo
10-04-2006, 11:26 AM
Or is it a matter of just exchanging one cage for another?

Gitmo may well be becoming a pain in the US ass and the need percieved or otherwise to roll down Gitmo could be the reasoning behind it... sort of like if someone in there has say British residency but not necessarily British citizenship then the US could consider that the British has more "right" to them thus the US hands them over to the British and thats so many prisoners out of Gitmo... Im purely speculating here!

Although with those laws that hes creating Gitmo may well be heading toward being a more exclusive block of cells

Didnt the British take some of the prisoners awhile back? I know David Hicks tried like buggary to become a British citizen or at least claim it to get moved there... intent was that it wouldnt be as hard to be moved from Britain to Australia than it is to get out of US custody at Gitmo... didnt work though hes still in Gitmo tough shyte sport as the saying goes

uncas
10-04-2006, 11:32 AM
I the old days, many countries got rid of the riff raff by sending them elsewhere. Where there were no whites so to speak. Both Autrailia and the US were sent individuals who broke the laws, were debtors etc. but were English. In those days, these folks were swept under the carpet. Outta sight outta mind. We can't do that anymore.

Dingo, I'm not demeaning Aussieland. Georgia in the US was one specific state which had to deal with those in England who broke the law, were in crowded jails etc. Georgia is where these people were sent..
And before I get a lot of flack mentioning GA., 1/3 of my family comes from there.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
10-04-2006, 11:38 AM
To say nothing of the Carolinas.

But even those sentenced to be "transported" were sentenced in a properly constituted court after due process.

The people shipped to the Americas without so much as a "by your leave" - were slaves.

uncas
10-04-2006, 11:47 AM
But even those sentenced to be "transported" were sentenced in a properly constituted court after due process.

True but the defense was only good for so much. If the individual was a debtor, he couldn't pay for a defense and was subject to a state defender who may not have cared less.
Yes, he was obviously found guilty but the process was just that..a process. It was a forgone conclusion before the court date.

The slaves..definitly agree. They had nothing to support their claims.

uncas
10-04-2006, 12:17 PM
One of them was accused of having been traind by Al Queda in an Afghanistan camp. It was later shown that the guy, at the same time he was supposed to be with Al Queda, was in another country, working some menial ordinary job.


So Norman, is he still there or did we try to send him home but his country wouldn't take him back?

uncas
10-04-2006, 12:22 PM
Then sure, why not give him citizenship. He could move in next to you but maybe he wouldn't like that.. :)

A chain pulled.. Hey its Wednesday.

John of Phoenix
10-04-2006, 01:42 PM
Another case of "It sure seemed like a good idea at the time, but what the hell do we do now?"

We'll be cleaning up after these guys until the next millennium.

TomF
10-04-2006, 02:18 PM
Jamie, Innocent until proven guilty is the standard.

If it's the standard if we're talking about the Jeffrey Dahmers (or even the Kenneth Lays), then it's the same standard if we're talking about alleged terrorists or associates of terrorists.

If folks are comfortable removing the "innocent until proven guilty" standard for suspected terrorists, why should we treat suspected serial murderers differently? Or suspected Mafia bosses? Or suspected pedophiles?

Where's the line? People suspected of cheating a wee little bit on their income taxes?

Innocent until proven guilty. Habeas corpus. These are still the touchstones of common law.

John of Phoenix
10-04-2006, 02:58 PM
How were they determined to be innocent..

By the Constitution of the United States of (what remains of) America, goddamn it!

uncas
10-04-2006, 03:20 PM
John,
I can't compare a Dalmer with those, or some of those at Gitmo.
Even though I hate to say it, I can iunderstand why our gov. does not want to bring these to court in the US. In order to try them, whoever has the defense has the right to intelligence information and matrerial which, if made public, can actually hurt our effectiveness in obtaining intelligence or perhaps, even protect those who are getting it and are under cover.
Okay, it may sound lame but I can see the truth there. At least I can understand the fear. Is it an excuse, more so than not. Is is a valid reason, I can see some validity.
If I could see a scenerio where they wqere tried fairly and the information given at trial did not potentially harm our own, great but our media wouldn't allow it firstly. And escondly, Washington DC is like a sieve, it can't help but leak.
If that is what everyone wants fine.

Ya know, I watched a program, I think it was the history channel the other day. Men on Okinawa etc. were interviewed. When prisoners were discussed, several made the following comments. Paraphrased.
Yes, we captured prisoners, Yes we interrogated them, and yes, afterwards we shot them. Their logic was two fold, what were we gonna do with them if we didn't and it was war you see. Things happen in war that we may later regret.

George.
10-04-2006, 03:21 PM
they are going straight to Al Qaeda to learn how to get even.....

I know I would, if I had been kept in a cage from 2001 to 2006, without right of appeal, subject to torture, FOR NO REASON.

The fact that they are up to be released is a confession by the US that THEY GOT THE WRONG GUYS. Does any of you RWW think they would be releasing a real terrorist?

You will pay, and no one will be sorry this time. Those are the wages of torture. :mad:

uncas
10-04-2006, 03:23 PM
I'm moving to Brazil.. or is it paradise. Everything George writes makes it sound as though it is.. :)

Naw, been there.

Keith Wilson
10-04-2006, 03:37 PM
uncas, have you actually read anything George wrote about Brazilian politics, or police, or human rights, or anything else besides his lovely wife and schooner? He's as hard on the Brazilian Government as he is on the government of the US, and with very good reason. One major difference, however, is that the Brazilians restrict their misbehavior to their own citizens.

uncas
10-04-2006, 03:44 PM
Keith
Of course I have but he has being on a rant lately. I am not talking about his beautiful boat, his family or the stories of sailing.etc. This is just a rant on his part I am teasing him about because no place is perfect and yes the US is accountable for doing a lot of horrendous things. I don't deny that. No one can.
I have also seen the poverty down there. Belem is polluted, overridden with poverty, bad water, sewage, loss of forests , huge rats walking casually down the center of a street in the middle of the day. I have also had to wear shoes or sneakers when taking a shower.. It ain't perfect either.
I have yet, however, found a place that is...

George.
10-04-2006, 03:44 PM
One major difference, however, is that the Brazilians restrict their misbehavior to their own citizens.

Another is that such mistreatment is ILLEGAL in Brazil. And being actively fought by society and the government, although some old habits are hard to kill.

And that even victims of torture or unjust imprisonment during the US-backed dictatorship get compensation, gladly paid from our taxes by our democratic government, because we acknowledge that it was WRONG.

Keith Wilson
10-04-2006, 04:00 PM
And until a couple of days ago it was ILLEGAL in the US as well, had been for decades. When the courts are done with it or, a less rabid adminstration is in power, it may be illegal again if there's any justice in this country at all. :mad:

Damn them all - the criminals who proposed this vile legislation, and the spineless bastards who voted for it. :mad: :mad:

paladin
10-04-2006, 07:48 PM
George...how are things in Angres dos Rios these days, any better?

George.
10-05-2006, 06:39 AM
What do you mean, Chuck? We haven't had any problems around here lately... :confused:

Keith Wilson
10-05-2006, 08:24 AM
Two kings, not two rivers, Paladin.

Hey, I know the perfect boat for that port: Dyarchy!! :D :D

http://www.yalumba.co.uk/Images/Maritime%20Historian/Boats%20and%20Yachts/Dyarchy.jpg

George.
10-05-2006, 08:40 AM
Not two kings either, Keith. "Dos" means "of the." Two in Portuguese is "dois."

Angra dos Reis means "harbour of the kings." The name is because Angra was discovered on January 6, 1502 - the day of the Three Wise Men, called "Reis Magos," or "Magi Kings," in Portuguese. As you know, they were most likely Zoroastrian magi from Parthia.

BTW, Americo Vespucci was on that expedition as a pilot. He wrote about Angra in his famous Lettera, calling it the earthly paradise, and for the first time broaching the concept of the noble savage in his description of the locals.

Keith Wilson
10-05-2006, 08:45 AM
Ah, screwed up again by trying to read Portuguese like Spanish - De los reyes, then. Oh well, I guess Dyarchy isn't as clever as I thought :o

George.
10-05-2006, 08:49 AM
Nope, no Spartan polity here. Anarchy is more like it. :D

Keith Wilson
10-05-2006, 09:14 AM
It's almost impossible to even think of Brazilians and Spartans in the same thought, something you folks are no doubt quite pleased about. :D

paladin
10-05-2006, 02:47 PM
Sorry for the miss speak George......it has been quite a few years since I was down that way.....or up that way as it was for me then....:D

George.
10-05-2006, 04:12 PM
No worries, mate. But I still don't know what you mean by "any better."

paladin
10-05-2006, 08:30 PM
welllll.....25 years ago or thereabouts.......I came around the horn and went first into Punta Del Este....needed some work done...couldn't find what I needed......continued north to "Parati"(sp?) where I put in.....the parts I needed were available in Angre de Reis (sp?)....sailed there......in a supposedly secured yard...with an armed guard...I returned next morning and radios, cameras, binoculars and it seems anything that wasn't nailed down departed....guard saw no one, hasp on the hatch pried off and nobody heard a thing......

George.
10-06-2006, 06:02 AM
Two years ago, we had a gang stealing stuff from boats. They stole a compass from Dalia. But they were caught after about a month.

Other than that, I never hear of any trouble with boats around here.