Boat wire or cable

[Notorious]

Again I'm sourcing supplies for rebuilding the Notorious (www.feadshipnotorious.com) and am looking for wire and cable sources. I talked with the Ancor people at the Ft. Lauderdale boat show back in october and was impressed with their full line of wiring supplies.
However there is a lot of issues with the wire itself. Jamestown offers the same spec wire and a much better price. I've located wire with a CSA labeling and can't seem to find a cross over chart to compare it to what ABYC talks about. The one 14ga. sample I have has the following information printed on it.

12AWG AWM STYLE 3173 XLPE 125C 600V E11352 CSA CL1251 XLPE 125C 600V OR AWM I A 150C 600V LL16601

Can anyone interpet this and tell me if it equals or exceeds what is called for by ABYC?

My Silicon Bronze post opened quit a discussion. Hope this stimultaes someting.

[Frank Wentzel]

Try e-bay but, rather than marine-spec wire, look into teflon insulated wire. The wire comes in tin or silver plated types. The tin plated wire is either not specified as such or occasionally the seller thinks the shiny stuff is silver when it is actually tin. Either type is better than marine spec wire. Teflon is visciously hydrophobic and resistant to temperatures as high as 600 degrees F (teflon won't melt even when you solder right next to it). You can't get better quality wire and the prices are about the same as marine spec wire.

/// Frank ///

/// Frank ///

[Notorious]

Thanks Frank for that input. I still want the boat to be done to or better than ABYC codes. So any wire I put in the boat I want to make sure is recognised and comparable to those standards. I like the idea of exceeding the codes. I've always be a beleiver in anything worth doing, work or play, is worth doing to excess.
I will look into teflon jacketed wire. I'm sure the silver wire would be a better grade. We used to use that in aviation work.

[ssor]

12 AWG =12 american wire gauge,AWM =appliance wiring material,XLPE= polyethelene insulation,125C = 125Degrees celcius max operating temp.,600V =600 volts rating for the insulation. The rest of the numbers I believe refer to spec's. I think that this is correct, there are others here more knowledgable than I who will certainly correct me if I am in error, as well they should.

[paladin]

if you use teflon jacketed wire note that "semiautomatic mechanical wirestrippers" are different for teflon wire than for other insulation materials........

[Gary E]

http://www.milspecwire.com/

Might be a good place to ask about those spec's.

[videoguy]

I got all of the wire for FLOOZIE at jamestown dst
it's all tin coated marine grade .......Phil smile.gif smile.gif

[Ross M]

Teflon insulated wire has many outstanding qualities, but IMO, it has two characteristics that work against it:

a) Cold flow - Teflon has very low creep resistance, meaning that a small load applied over a length of time results in permanent deformation. This leaves it very susceptible to chafing problems. GD lost several F-16's to this when wire chafe resulted in shorts that commanded a fuel shut-off valve to close.

b) Low coefficient of friction makes handling difficult at times.

First, it makes it very difficult to provide suitable strain relief, particularly in light of a).

Second, it makes it quite difficult to strip without thermal strippers. You can't provide strain relief with your fingers, it is far to slippery. Mechanical assistance frequently results in teflon displaced down to the wire, usually right where you needed it most. Ignore and pull away, and you'll find you've caused a cold flow somewhere else.

Last I knew, airframers were moving away from straight teflon insulated wires. If memory serves, a product known as Tefzel has become popular. I believe it is teflon in a glass matrix, which helps quite a bit with the cold flow issue.

YMMV

Ross

[Notorious]

Thanks for all the replys so far. I've checked out Jamestown and they e far cheaper than Ancor for the same grade wire. However the wire I've found I beleive is a step or two above JT and Ancor AND cheaper because its surplus.
Still like to hear if the listed specs cross over .

Somebody out there has to be wire anal and can tell me all I'd ever what to know about wire.

Thanks guys.

[nedL]

Notorious, The wire you have is intended for "internal wiring of appliances". This may be alright for use in some locations onboard, but I don't know if I'd use it throughout a boat if I want to meet some standard. UL specs can have some latitude in their interpretation of application, but I'd be suprised if everywhere onboard could be interpreted as the UL spec indicates. Sorry guys, but Teflon insulation (and silver plate) is a very expensive overkill. The wire you have is a cross-linked Polyethylene insulated single conductor, which also is most likely not needed. It is that insulating material that gives it the 125C rating. I just did a bit of looking & the ABYC defers to the USCG for wiring requirements. " The United States Coast Guard has promulgated mandatory requirements for electrical systems in Title 33, CFR 183 Subpart I, Section 183. Refer to the CFR for complete, current federal requirements". If you can find out what that says I might be able to help you with what AWM or UL style to look for.

[ 03-14-2005, 08:03 AM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[ssor]

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Standards, Tables, International Equivalents

ABYC standards
About the ABYC
Exerpts from the standards
US coastguard standards
US Coastguard electrical FAQ page.
Summary of USCG electrical requirements (Courtesy of Blue Sea Systems)
UL Listing
UL Marine standard



AC wiring color codes

Conductor US 115v AC US 230v AC Europe 240v AC
Ground Green Green Green and yellow
Neutral White White Light blue
Hot Black Black Brown
Hot Red







From Table IV of ABYC E9
For wire with 105° C insulation rating Allowable Amperage of conductors for systems under 50 volts

Conductor size AWG
Outside Engine Spaces
Inside Engine Spaces

18 20 17.0
16 25 21.3
14 35 29.8
12 45 38.3
10 60 51.0
8 80 68.0
6 120 102
4 160 136
2 210 178
1 245 208
1/0 285 242
2/0 330 280
3/0 385 327
4/0 445 378



ENGINE AND ACCESSORY WIRING COLOR CODE from ABYC E9 Table XIII

COLOR
ITEM
USE

Yellow w/red stripe (YR) Starting circuit Starting switch to solenoid
Brown/yellow stripe (BY) or
Yellow (Y) - see note Bilge blowers Fuse or switch to blowers
Dark gray (Gy) Navigation lights
Tachometer Fuse or switch to lights
Tachometer sender to gauge
Brown (Br) Generator armature
Alternator charge light
Pumps Generator armature to regulator
Generator
Terminal/alternator
Auxiliary terminal to light to regulator
Fuse or switch to pumps
Orange (O) Accessory feed Ammeter to alternator or generator output and accessory fuses or switches.
Distribution panel to accessory switch

Purple (Pu) Ignition
Instrument feed Ignition switch to coil and electrical instruments.
Distribution panel to electric instruments

Dark blue Cabin and instrument lights Fuse or switch to lights
Light blue (Lt Bl) Oil pressure Oil pressure sender to gauge
Tan Water temperature Water temperature sender to gauge
Pink (Pk) Fuel gauge Fuel gauge sender to gauge
Green/stripe (G/x)
(Except G/Y) Tilt down and/or trim in
Tilt and/or trim circuits Tilt and/or trim circuits
Blue/stripe (Bl/x) Tilt up and/or trim out
Tilt and/or trim circuits
Tilt and/or trim circuits

Technical formulas and calculations
A selection of formulas and a scientific calculator

Page last updated 21 May, 2004





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Marine Electrical Systems

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I googled "abyc wire standards" and got the table above. Distorted in the cut and paste but easy enough to go back to the website.

[nedL]

Informative, but mostly the color coding (which has nothing to do with what type of wire to use)About the only thing here that has anything to do with the UL style is the temp rating 105C (a bit higher than I had thought it would be). Really need to see what the C.G. has approved for onboard use.

[ 03-14-2005, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[ssor]

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Maybe a good reference book is in order.

[trull]

Perhaps I am missing some details about your project.
Why not just use Ancor, Dearborn, Cobra or some other equivalent Boat Cable which is Coast Guard approved. Proper crimping and heat shrink terminals will satisfy any Coast Guard inspecting officer. I have had no problem with any vessel.

[ErikH]

I personally always just use a size larger wire. voila--no load worries, even if you have some corrosion; less amperage drop; and easier to work with (up to a point). Once you do a good job soldering and heatshrinking your terminals, what's left to 'improve'? (be sure to use adhesive heatshrink, though).

Hey--anyone in the Bristol RI area want to buy some wire? I've got lots left over, including many feet of marvelous 00 tinned cable and the fittings & heatshrink to go with it.... :D

[Notorious]

Trull.. I was interested in finding out it the wire I spec'd here was better or at least equivalent because I can buy it for $.08 a foot (14 ga) where Ancor wants over $.40 a foot. The Notorious is an 81 foot boat.....thousands of feet of wire...... I plan to buy my connectors and other supplies from ancor because I like the quality of their stuff.

[Notorious]

ErikH.... I agree....I plan to go over code for the same reason.

ssor....I have a couple of books on boat wireing but there is no cross over tables. I found all the sane things you found on the web. Thanks for your time. My thinking was the wire I found was better and being surplus a far better value at less than 25% of ancors price.

NedL....Thanks for understanding what I'm looking for. I'm not looking to take any shortcuts or "get around" anything. Just trying to save hundreds of dollars on one aspect of the project.

[nedL]

I should point out that 'better' may be a bit nebulous here. UL classifies electric wire and cable for use by application (ex: "Internal connection of electronic equipment", "External connection.....", "Internal or Extrenal connection..." etc. etc...). The approved application is identified by the UL or AWM number printed on the cable (ex: 20233, 20327, 20626, 2587A, or in the case of what Notorious has, 3173). Generally it is the insulation and jacketing material of the cable (flame/burn resistance, cold/hot bending, & chemical resistance) that will determine what UL style the cable will be classified as. Granted, the construction of the cable will also come into consideration on multiconductor cables. So, if you want to do it 'better' you should use the correct type of wire or cable, and perhaps just go to the next larger gauge.
The UL "E" number (on Notorious's cable "E11352")simply identifies what company manufactured the cable. Most of the other stuff in the print legend just tells you what the cable is (for Notorious's cable: 12 AWG copper, cross linked polyethylene insulation, rated for 125deg C, 600 V.)

[ 03-16-2005, 07:33 AM: Message edited by: nedL ]

[trull]

Notorious-go to my web site and download my free program Wiresizer. You may find it helpful to size wire and maintain minimal voltage drop. Saves repetitive calculations.

[PaulC]

Trull, there seems to be a bit of a do-loop in trying to get to your program...