View Full Version : Wood sheathing
07-22-2003, 07:42 PM
I am about to cover a 36" Joh de Dood yawl with 2 layers of 3/16" cedar approx.2 1/2" wide. Any advice with regard to the pattern of installation, availability of suitable staples, ect., would be highly appreciated.
07-23-2003, 02:10 AM
Maximum strength comes from +/- 45 degrees to the hull planking, since almost all the strength in cedar is along the grain. Having done similar projects I can't imagine using such narrow strips- even 6" strips lay easily with minimum spiling, and many areas of the hull will accommodate 9-12" strips. You're going to have a lot of edges to staple and fair. And the edges will be more likely to eventually show through any final finish.
For staples with thin material such as you're using, the consensous seems to be "Raptor" brand plastic staples which can be left in and sand easily. www.raptornails.com (http://www.raptornails.com) If you use metal staples of a material different from the original hull fastenings they really should be pulled. Bronze are very difficult to come by, stainless pretty common at better fastening supply houses. Try Duo-Fast. I was going to use stainless with my bronze fastenings until I calculated out the square footage of metal surface area for the projected number of staples- it was over 15 square feet for a 40' boat. Yikes!
[ 07-23-2003, 03:13 AM: Message edited by: Conrad S. ]
07-23-2003, 08:19 AM
Conrad I appreciate your reply. As for the width of the cedar, you have to work with the materials and the equipment that you have and I only had a 14" bandsaw for the re-sawing. I have been in contact with "Raptor" regarding the composite staples. I would like to hear from anyone who has had experience using their staples. This project is a one man thing and needs to be completed before the weather turns cold. I have ordered 304 SS staples as an alternate should nothing else turn-up and I have approx. 2500 bronze staples left over from a previous project. I am about finished with the preparations and am anxious to get started. Naturally I want to do it right the first time.
Good luck with the project. There is a local boat that was sheathed with cedar and aluminum staples, and the staples have been creating aluminum oxide ever since. Don't go that route at any cost.
Also, Monel Staples are very easy to get. I think that even West Marine carries them. They may be a better choice than Stainless because under the water the Stainless could rust and corrode. (Anerobic evnr.)
07-23-2003, 11:40 AM
I went with Raptor staples .They are actually a little cheaper than the monel I priced .Raptor won't take credit cards ,so I had gun and staples shipped COD to a UPS facility about 20 min. away .When I got out there I found they would no longer accept cash !Ran out and got a money order for the amount quoted to me by Raptor.Went back to UPS but they wouldn't take it .It was one dollar Over what they calculated as my bill and they had to have exact payment . No one there can make a judgement call .If I was doing it again I'd send Raptor a personal check and just wait a bit longer .
I still haven't gotten to use the setup yet, but look forward to getting back in the shop .I was told the heat of driveing melts the surface of the staple for an instant creating a bit of an adheasive bond .The small pnumatic gun looks pretty normal , but is from Italy .From the literature that came with I gather that the EU requires the Decibles of sound produced by a tool to be on the spec sheet ,which certianly seems sensible .
07-23-2003, 12:41 PM
Thanks for the info Noah. I looked into monel staples but they only seem to be available for the T 50 manual stapler. That's a lot of staples to put in by hand. Do you know of any that are available for a pneumatic gun. Also, thanks to Bill Perkins. I gather that you haven't used the composite staples yet. I would like to hear from someone who has considerable experience with them. Just to get the pro's and con's of the situation. Thanks again.
07-23-2003, 01:40 PM
Frank: I am using Raptor staples for veneering. I have laid about 20 veneers now, and it is going well. You need to staple about every 2" to get the veneers down flat, so lots of staples.
I am using 1/8" veneers, which are commerically available. I have some concerns about thicker veneers attaching well with staples and laying flat.
07-23-2003, 02:21 PM
The biggest problem with the Raptor staples is the length- they don't make 'em very long. A lot depends on what your hull is planked with. Fir or mahogany hold shorter staples pretty well, while cedar requires a longer fastener. I've used the Raptor through 1/16" mahogany veneers with success. While doing my current project I went with bronze ring nails and was very pleaseed with how well they pulled 5mm ply (meranti) down tight on my mahogany hull. Staples would have had to be 5/8"+.
07-23-2003, 08:24 PM
Conrad.---- Did you encounter any serious problems when using the Raptor staples. The De Dood I am sheathing is planked with mahogany and I test fired a Raptor staple with a pnewmatic Duo-fast gun. The staple appeared to penetrate well. I am concerned with penetration where there is a build-up of fairing epoxy; and as the epoxy builds between layers. Bronze ring nails! Wasn't that a bit labor intensive. Are you aware of anyone else who is succussfully using the composite staples? By the way your advice is really appreciated.
07-24-2003, 12:58 AM
Frank- the Raptor staples do have their limits. I can see a deep pocket of fairing compound or epoxy stopping them, but expect the greater problem will be their short length. Last time I looked the longest was 9/16" which doesn't leave a lot for holding power. And remember the second layer will be going into the previous layer- cedar- which will hold even less. Your best bet is to try them in a dry test on some of your toughest curves and see how it goes. Remember, you don't just want to hold the plank in place, you want to suck it down tight into the epoxy, preferably hard against the underlying surface. One advantage of steel staples is that you can buy them with divergent chisel points so they don't drive straight, but splay out into the wood, increasing their holding power with less "bounce back".
Using the nails, while it sounds like a tremendous amount of work, wasn't that bad primarily because we put two layers on at once (angled back 45 degrees) with a staggared overlap. Thus we were able to essentially nail both layers at once with only a couple of nails to hold the inner layer until the second was on and positioned. Surprisingly, the choke point in the process was spreading the glue onto both the hull and the strips. With two of us working, the nailer was always ahead of the glue guy!
Dirty secrets time........ if I were to do it again I'd probably buy the best heavy galvanised roofing staples and a good pnuematic gun, and leave them all in. I doubt this would cause any problems above the waterline in a properly maintained and ventilated boat. And while there may eventually be issues below the waterline, with some light cloth and epoxy over the new wood it might be a decade or so before anything happened, and even that wouldn't really compromise the structure of what would by then be an even older and more tired wooden boat. A trade-off worth making?- too many variables for anyone but you to answer. On the other hand, the bottom of my current boat, all mahogany, bronze, and epoxy, will be the last part of the ship to wash off that big beach in woodenboat heaven... :D
07-25-2003, 07:44 PM
Many thanks to Conrad and the others that have replied with adivce on this matter. All of your suggestions will be weighed heavily and in the end; the decision will have to be made be the one who pulls the trigger on the pneumatic gun. Yours truly. Thanks again. Keep the advice coming and I will keep you all posted on the progress.
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