Ross M
10-26-2002, 01:41 AM
Author Topic: Aerodux Resorcinal
redjim777
posted 03-13-2000 10:56 AM
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I promised to post my findings on the Aerodux when I started to use it.
I received 2 qts one hardner, one resin. The hardner is dark brown, very thick & stiff, slightly less stiff than peanut butter. The resin is deep purple and the consistency is similar to a very thin honey . The odor is no worse than that of West Sys and when mixed the consistency is about perfect for close tolerance gluing, kind of close to a thick elmers glue the color being a dark reddish brown. The clean-up is with warm soapy water, it's easy and you do not have to throw away the brush etc. because the cleaning leaves no residue. Squeeze-out can also be removed with a damp paper towel leaving a clean glue line.
Temp at gluing was 65f at 65% humidity Saturday and 80f at 70% humidity Sunday.
I tried gluing two different types of wood. 3/4 ply and 3/4 yellow pine. The ply had machined edges, the pine I had freshly ripped with a circular saw ( I use a planing blade). I applied the glue to both edges of each piece and clamped them with bar clamps for 4 hours. The squeeze-out skinned over in 1/2 hr and was mostly cured in four hours. I unclamped the pieces and 24 hrs latter preformed a jump test. The pine sample held for several jumps and broke about 2 inches to the left of the glue line. The ply piece broke along the glue line and upon examination looked glue starved. This piece was machined again, then sanded with 120 grit and reglued with a heavier spread. Tonight I will jump test this glue-up again. This product may need a rough surface to get a good bond.
Since the last test was with edge joined wood, the next test will be with 12-1 scarfed 3/4 cypress and 1/4 mahogany ply.
So far I have seen a few advantages to using this as a glue over epoxy. First and foremost the water clean-up of both tools and joints. Second you can mix as little as you need for gluing without having to correctly portion a thickening agent to get a gluing consistency (there are epoxies that are thick but not the same thickness as this product). Last but certainly not least this product has a long history, it is "water proof".
The only negative, if you can call it that, is the thickness of the resin. The instructions, which redefine brevity, instruct you to make sure that the 501 resin is well stirred prior to use. Try stirring a jar of peanut butter! Also this resin clings to the spoon used to move it to the mixing container so you have to be careful with the 1-1 ratio.
A bit long winded, I'll try to be brief with any further results.
Jim
P.S. I fixed the above description of the color and texture of the 2 parts after Syd mentioned that I had it bass ackwards, Thanks Syd!!
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 03-15-2000).]
Ironmule
posted 03-13-2000 02:38 PM
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Redjim, when it comes to hands on data like this, be thorough first and worry about brevity later. We won't mind a bit JWSmith
Steve Faehnle
posted 03-13-2000 07:44 PM
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I just finished gluing up a sixteen foot long doug-fir laminated deadwood with Aerodux. My experience similar to Redjim. This product does not like gaps. One gets a very nice glue line with 1/16 in joints. The cleanup and longer pot life worked very well for this particular application. Once cured, the wood can be easily sanded/planed. I "streamlined" the area of the deadwood near the stern bearing using hand chisel and gouge. there were no separations along any faying surfaces. the smell reminded me of anatomy lab in med school. I will use this product again.
dasboat
posted 03-13-2000 09:34 PM
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Not long winded at all,and well appreciated.Thanks.
Where is this product sold and under what brand name(is aerodux a brand)?
Regards,Darryl
[This message has been edited by dasboat (edited 03-13-2000).]
Syd MacDonald
posted 03-13-2000 11:07 PM
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Jim, I think you have your colors reversed- which really dosen't matter, since you mix them in equal porportions. I find it tends to run out of any gap in a verticle joint but holds well in a horizontal joint of a sixteenth of an inch - give or take a bit.
I would like to see more info on the use of thickners. There is a lot of info re using epoxy but not much on resourcinols. I guess it will come with time. Keep the info coming.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-14-2000 12:47 AM
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Reminds me of the old saying, "Framers work on the nearest half inch, carpenters work on the nearest quarter inch, cabinetmakers work on the nearest sixteenth inch and boatbuilders work on the nearest boat!
There's not much more to say about resorcinol that doesn't apply to every other adhesive except epoxy. The kicker with resorcinol, which by all accounts is a better wood boatbuilding adhesive than epoxy, is that in boatbuilding, if you are working with sixteenth inch gaps in your faying surfaces on a regular basis, you'd better brush up on your woodworking skills. That's really too much to expect of any adhesive in a boat building application. I know, it's easier said than done, but with careful lofting and layout ("measure twice, cut once") and working up to the line, airtight faying surfaces aren't that difficult to achieve most of the time. The big advantage of googe is that a sloppy wood butcher can still put together a boat that floats... for a while.
I'd love to hear what Chemist has to say about Aerodux vs googe... are you listening, Chemist?
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 10:34 AM
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JWSmith, Thanks I'll be passing on all of the information that I can.
Steve, you're right on the smell, it was familiar and now that you mention it I have'nt smelt that since disecting a cat in high school.
Daryl, Aerodux is a brand name, there was an article on it in a past WB issue (1999) and it is distributed by CutomPak Adhesives, I've misplaced the number so I will post it when I find it.
Syd, I probably should reread my posts for accuracy! I'll have to go back and look at the cans again. What I meant when talking of thicking agents was that the Aerodux really does not require one. Epoxy when mixed with it's hardner ( I use West Sys as an example) has a very thin consistency, it's ok for wetting out a surface but not really thick enough to glue joints. You have to add one of several thickening agents to get anywhere from a honey to a paste consistency. I think I wll contact the Aerodux manufacturer to see if it can be thickened a little. The Aerodux, when well mixed, is thicker than regular wood working glue (like titebond), it tends to sag more than run and it does squeeze out of the joint, but I just love that you can wipe the squeeze out with a wet rag!
Update: Well the second ply test failed just as quickly and I am beginning to suspect that this glue prefers a rough surface to bond to. I began to suspect the yellow pine sample, perhaps the board had a defect that I did'nt or could'nt see, so I put it against a curb and hit it hard with a rubber mallet. The piece broke two inches to the right of the glue line, tonight I will drive a prybar into the glue line and see if I can force it apart. My PC framers saw has a planing blade so the surface is smoother than a construction blade. Maybe this is just enough to give the glue a grip. So this weekend (or sooner if I can), I will machine another piece of yellow pine on the bench jointer, and rip a piece of ply and glue them up. I will also follow through on the scarf joints ( I'll use some purple heart in this test also). The jump test is somewhat unscientific, but is the quickest and easiest way to test the bond.
Jim
Ed Harrow
posted 03-15-2000 01:27 PM
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Formaldehyde is wonderful stuff
But if you're in it
Then things have been rough
NormMessinger
posted 03-15-2000 02:03 PM
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Jim, I missed it if you said what kind of joint your are testing with plywood. I imagined a butt joint. No? I doubt any glue would hold on a butt joint in plywood.
--Norm
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 02:45 PM
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Norm, Yes, you are correct sir! I am using But(t) joints ( the weakest kind of joint). I am edge gluing pieces aqbout 2 ft long by 1 ft wide. I don't think there should be an appreciable difference whether wood or plywood. True, the ply is half edge-grain, but still wood. An epoxy resin with microfibers (essentially minute strands of fiberglass) works well with both. I am trying to find the "envelope" that this glue needs to work properly. The article in WB was excellent, but there is no substitution for hands on experience. I want to be comfortable in the knowledge that I have applied the glue properly and have a good structurally sound bond. Of course I will test other joints, scarfs ( 50% edge grain?) and so on. One point that Bob makes is very true, epoxy has a higher tolerance for bonding than other glues. Anyway, if you have any suggestions as to how else to test the Aerodux I am open to all. Oh, and I will get the colors straight.
Jim
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 02:59 PM
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OK, I got off my lazy *** and this link will (hopefully) take you to CustomPak, they are also looking for people to sell this locally.
http://www.custompak.com
Good Luck,
Jim
P.S. I checked the cans again and the resin is purple and the hardner is the thick brown goo. I chose the butt joint purposely because at the time I was gluing-up a transom.
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 03-15-2000).]
dasboat
posted 03-15-2000 06:06 PM
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Great post,thanks. This forum is like another edition of wb.
ACB
posted 03-16-2000 11:54 PM
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Jim, I wonder of the failure of the ply joints could be due to another characteristic of this stuff - it tendency to capilliary (sp?) attraction. It "wicks" up open end grain like a rat up a drainpipe, and plywood has a lot of end grain and voids which the glue tends to disappear into. You said the joint looked "glue starved" and it had perhaps "starved itself!"
Epoxy gets round this problem because you coat the two halves, allow to set, then use more to make the joint, but resorcinol, which I think depends on a chemical reaction with the timber, can't work this way.
I was told to keep the faying surfaces accurate, but roughened, for best results - get them as good as possible, then scratch them up a bit with coarse sandpaper.
redjim777
posted 03-17-2000 10:03 AM
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Well, I thought the same thing initially, But the second time I glued the ply I used a lot of the Aerodux. When the joint broke along the glue line the second time the joint did not look starved. I will continue to work on this Sat. & Sun.
Jim
Ironmule
posted 03-17-2000 02:21 PM
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Wood flour is a central part of stitch and glue constuction, yet sawdust in a joint is very bad for adhesion. I suppose the mixing process is important in SNG, and there isn't enough mixing going on in a simple joint causing the sawdust to be in the way instead of being a part of the process. Somebody know for sure? JWSmith
redjim777
posted 03-17-2000 02:41 PM
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I have gotten in the habit of vacuuming before gluing. When I first read about this I thought it was overkill, but it does make a big difference. If I don't vacuum I at least brush the joint with a shop brush and wipe it down with acetone. It's my SWAG that if you have enough dust in the joint it might act as a barrier to the glue, like when you put flour in a cake pan prior to pouring in the batter. I'm going to rip and glue the ply tonight, so I'll know more by Saturday night.
redjim777
posted 03-23-2000 10:56 AM
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Well I had to re-deck a dock over the weekend so I was'nt much in the mood to do anything else. Tuesday night I did glue-up two 2 ft long pieces of 3/4 cypress with a 12:1 scarf (scarfed with a router). I used these pieces because they had some grain runout. I waited 36 hours, then positioned the approx 30 inch piece so as to bend it from the tail end with pressure just behind the joint. The first few tries at breaking the joint failed ( about a 3 inch bend ), I then bent the piece further to about 4 inches. At this pont I started to hear wood fibers let go. With a little more pressure the joint split along the glue line. What I saw was the the glue held and the wood broke along the grain runout (which would have been side grain) but where there was significant end grain the glue broke. Assuming that the glue was at full strength ( according to the data sheet it should have been) it would seem to me that the Aerodux does not like any endgrain or that endgrain requires special preparation not noted in the literature. At this point I will probably continue on my boat with the epoxy so as not to fall behind on the project. I will continue to experiment with the Aerodux on end grain and I will write the company for any additional information they night have.
When I know you'll know,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-05-2000 10:50 AM
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Update! I wrote to Dynochem, the manufacturer of Aerodux, and they replied immediately with the information I needed. I have to figure out how to put the full document on the forum, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-05-2000 07:12 PM
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I thought I would post this part of the "instructions for use", because it deals with one of my original questions:
"Use of extenders:
Wood flour or mineral fillers may be added to increase the viscosity and reduce glue costs.
Lightly filled mix, parts by weight:
Aerodux 500 - 100
Hardner 501 - 100
China Clay - 40
Heavily filled mix, parts by weight:
Aerodux 500 - 100
Hardner 501 - 100
Fine Chalk or China Clay - 200
The lightly filled mix still complies with the requirements of BS 1204; Part 1 (type WBP). It may be necessary to adjust the viscosity of the heavily filled mix with water but the water addition should be kept to a minimum. This mix is suitable for bonding uneven-surfaced boards, such as mineral fiber re-reinforced boards, and where maximum strength and full weatherproof properties are not required."
So you can thicken this glue a little!
Syd MacDonald
posted 04-05-2000 10:58 PM
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Good info Jim. Now,what's china clay?
redjim777
posted 04-06-2000 12:50 PM
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Syd, you know I checked the Texan to English dictionary and the English to English dictionary but I could not find "China Clay". I suspect I could call an art supply store for it, as the company calls it a mineral. Since they also mention "Fine Chalk", I have my nephew collecting chalk dust from his school room ho ho ho!
Jim
Bruce Hooke
posted 04-06-2000 04:07 PM
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China Clay is also called Kaolin; one common variety is sold under the name "E.P.K. Kaolin". The distinctions between the different varieties of Kaolin should be irrelevant in the context under discussion. Any good ceramics supply house will carry it in 50 pound bags and usually in smaller quantities too (5lbs. for under $5 is typical). Most art supply stores will NOT have it - they tend to focus on materials for painting, drawing and such, not more heavy-duty things like ceramics. Since real ceramics supply houses are few and far between here are some mail order sources:
Minnesota Clay (Bloomington, MN): 1-800-252-9872
Bailey (Kingston, NY): 1-800-431-6067
Standard Ceramic Supply (Carnegie, PA): 1-412-276-6333
Continental Clay (Minneapolis, MN): 1-800-432-Clay
- Bruce
[This message has been edited by Bruce Hooke (edited 04-06-2000).]
Richard D-S
posted 04-07-2000 05:33 AM
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this is stimulating stuff!! I work in a college that has a boatbuilding centre in West Wales.
I also run the materials testing lab and am a boatbuilder too!! Heaven!
Anybody want some tests with pounds and oz. numbers (or even Kgs or pascals, whatever they are) drop me a message.
R.Davies@Pembrokeshire.ac.uk
redjim777
posted 04-07-2000 11:25 AM
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Bruce, mucho gracias! I think thast this points to one of the really great things about this forum, with so many different people from so many different backgrounds and regions someone is going to know the answer to your question.
Richard, thanks I may take you up on that!
Have a great weekend, Jim
Bruce Hooke
posted 04-07-2000 12:21 PM
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Jim - Glad I could help.
One more thing I should have noted, Kaolin, like all clays, contains silica, which is unhealthy to breathe in any quantity. In this context it seems unlikely that you would be exposed to enough to really matter, but none-the-less, a good dust mask and/or good ventilation would be in order when you are mixing it in. Any of the suppliers I listed above should be able to supply an MSDS, which will give you the full details on the risks and precautions.
- Bruce
[This message has been edited by Bruce Hooke (edited 04-07-2000).]
TomRobb
posted 04-07-2000 12:30 PM
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Another great thing is the differing backgrounds, experiences, ideas are stimulating. They open us up to a world larger than our own neighborhoods. The catalyst is of course a common love of the water and the boats.
redjim777
posted 04-07-2000 01:13 PM
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I had to be number 8000! Of course it means absolutely nothing but I saw 7,999 posts for this section of the forum and it was way too tempting.
I received an e-mail from Bill Joy the manager for the applications lab at Dynochem. he was responding to my questions on scarf joints.
"With scarf joints you are bonding into end grains. To prevent excessive penetration of the glue allow assembly time of 5-10 minutes before clamping. Similarly, if the wood has been burnished (somebody want to jump in and translate?) the assembly time will prvent excessive squeeze out.
Aerodux adhesive is alkaline setting. high acid wood such as oak or cedar will retard the cure."
Jim
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 04-07-2000).]
Eb
posted 04-07-2000 01:22 PM
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At this rate, probably a week maybe ten days and you can also be 10,000
Eb
wandiwise
posted 04-07-2000 04:42 PM
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Burnished, as in a hard, almost polished finish, a very smooth cut produced by high speed, fine cutting tools.
www
redjim777
posted 04-12-2000 10:28 AM
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Well the last test of the Aerodux went well. I took the advice of Bill Joy and let the glued pieces sit for 10-15 min prior to assembly. I also wiped the joints with acetone before glue application. The Aerodux did skin over and I was concerned with any potential bond at this point. I left the two samples (1x2 cypress & 1x4 white oak) clamped overnight. I released the clamps the next day and left them to cure for an additonal 24 hrs. This morning before work I flexed the cypress to a deflection of approx. 4 in. with no apparent strain on the joint. I flexed the oak to about 2 in. deflection with no problems. Next I placed the cypress against a 3 in curb in the garage and stepped on the joint, it gave only after I bounced on it. The joint gave aong the wood, the glue joint held. I performed the same test on the oak and it was no suprise that I was not able to break it with any amount of jumping. Both joints had been machine finished, I had planed to sand them, but Bill's instructions led me to believe I did'nt need to. Needless to say I am very happy with the results, I really like the water clean-up, as compared to epoxy. The fact that I don't have to add a filler to glue-up parts makes it even more attractive.
THANK YOU WOODENBOAT FOR MAKING THIS ALL POSSIBLE!
Good Luck to Everyone,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-12-2000 04:11 PM
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I all most forgot to add that I used the left over glue to repair the yellow pine board broken during the edge-gluing experiment. I glued it along the broken edges and it was a rough fit. There was not much glue left, (I clamped it immediately)and after application certainly little squeeze-out, but once again the board broke outside the glue joint.
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-18-2000 04:00 PM
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Well I finally got around to doing some building, not just testing. I glued all of the misc. longitudinal parts to length(19ft+). To test the bond of the Aerodux to the 12:1 scarf joint 36 hours after the clamping I picked up the 1x3x19'8"(net) purpleheart keel from one end like a fishing rod. I then rotated the piece in the air (this caused it to bounce some). The keel thankfully stayed in one piece with no noticable flat spot at the joint and no sounds of cracking. The glue line basically matches the color of the wood.
Jim
ACB
posted 04-19-2000 01:14 AM
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Thanks very much Jim, for a truly outstanding thread, from which I and I am sure many of us have learned a lot!
redjim777
posted 04-19-2000 02:27 PM
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ACB & all thank you for your input and encouragement. I did notice that the fully cured glue was just as brittle as the West Sys glue at full cure. I have to run, but I do have a couple of things to add hopefully I'll get it done Friday.
Thanks,
Jim
redjim777
posted 03-13-2000 10:56 AM
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I promised to post my findings on the Aerodux when I started to use it.
I received 2 qts one hardner, one resin. The hardner is dark brown, very thick & stiff, slightly less stiff than peanut butter. The resin is deep purple and the consistency is similar to a very thin honey . The odor is no worse than that of West Sys and when mixed the consistency is about perfect for close tolerance gluing, kind of close to a thick elmers glue the color being a dark reddish brown. The clean-up is with warm soapy water, it's easy and you do not have to throw away the brush etc. because the cleaning leaves no residue. Squeeze-out can also be removed with a damp paper towel leaving a clean glue line.
Temp at gluing was 65f at 65% humidity Saturday and 80f at 70% humidity Sunday.
I tried gluing two different types of wood. 3/4 ply and 3/4 yellow pine. The ply had machined edges, the pine I had freshly ripped with a circular saw ( I use a planing blade). I applied the glue to both edges of each piece and clamped them with bar clamps for 4 hours. The squeeze-out skinned over in 1/2 hr and was mostly cured in four hours. I unclamped the pieces and 24 hrs latter preformed a jump test. The pine sample held for several jumps and broke about 2 inches to the left of the glue line. The ply piece broke along the glue line and upon examination looked glue starved. This piece was machined again, then sanded with 120 grit and reglued with a heavier spread. Tonight I will jump test this glue-up again. This product may need a rough surface to get a good bond.
Since the last test was with edge joined wood, the next test will be with 12-1 scarfed 3/4 cypress and 1/4 mahogany ply.
So far I have seen a few advantages to using this as a glue over epoxy. First and foremost the water clean-up of both tools and joints. Second you can mix as little as you need for gluing without having to correctly portion a thickening agent to get a gluing consistency (there are epoxies that are thick but not the same thickness as this product). Last but certainly not least this product has a long history, it is "water proof".
The only negative, if you can call it that, is the thickness of the resin. The instructions, which redefine brevity, instruct you to make sure that the 501 resin is well stirred prior to use. Try stirring a jar of peanut butter! Also this resin clings to the spoon used to move it to the mixing container so you have to be careful with the 1-1 ratio.
A bit long winded, I'll try to be brief with any further results.
Jim
P.S. I fixed the above description of the color and texture of the 2 parts after Syd mentioned that I had it bass ackwards, Thanks Syd!!
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 03-15-2000).]
Ironmule
posted 03-13-2000 02:38 PM
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Redjim, when it comes to hands on data like this, be thorough first and worry about brevity later. We won't mind a bit JWSmith
Steve Faehnle
posted 03-13-2000 07:44 PM
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I just finished gluing up a sixteen foot long doug-fir laminated deadwood with Aerodux. My experience similar to Redjim. This product does not like gaps. One gets a very nice glue line with 1/16 in joints. The cleanup and longer pot life worked very well for this particular application. Once cured, the wood can be easily sanded/planed. I "streamlined" the area of the deadwood near the stern bearing using hand chisel and gouge. there were no separations along any faying surfaces. the smell reminded me of anatomy lab in med school. I will use this product again.
dasboat
posted 03-13-2000 09:34 PM
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Not long winded at all,and well appreciated.Thanks.
Where is this product sold and under what brand name(is aerodux a brand)?
Regards,Darryl
[This message has been edited by dasboat (edited 03-13-2000).]
Syd MacDonald
posted 03-13-2000 11:07 PM
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Jim, I think you have your colors reversed- which really dosen't matter, since you mix them in equal porportions. I find it tends to run out of any gap in a verticle joint but holds well in a horizontal joint of a sixteenth of an inch - give or take a bit.
I would like to see more info on the use of thickners. There is a lot of info re using epoxy but not much on resourcinols. I guess it will come with time. Keep the info coming.
Bob Cleek
posted 03-14-2000 12:47 AM
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Reminds me of the old saying, "Framers work on the nearest half inch, carpenters work on the nearest quarter inch, cabinetmakers work on the nearest sixteenth inch and boatbuilders work on the nearest boat!
There's not much more to say about resorcinol that doesn't apply to every other adhesive except epoxy. The kicker with resorcinol, which by all accounts is a better wood boatbuilding adhesive than epoxy, is that in boatbuilding, if you are working with sixteenth inch gaps in your faying surfaces on a regular basis, you'd better brush up on your woodworking skills. That's really too much to expect of any adhesive in a boat building application. I know, it's easier said than done, but with careful lofting and layout ("measure twice, cut once") and working up to the line, airtight faying surfaces aren't that difficult to achieve most of the time. The big advantage of googe is that a sloppy wood butcher can still put together a boat that floats... for a while.
I'd love to hear what Chemist has to say about Aerodux vs googe... are you listening, Chemist?
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 10:34 AM
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JWSmith, Thanks I'll be passing on all of the information that I can.
Steve, you're right on the smell, it was familiar and now that you mention it I have'nt smelt that since disecting a cat in high school.
Daryl, Aerodux is a brand name, there was an article on it in a past WB issue (1999) and it is distributed by CutomPak Adhesives, I've misplaced the number so I will post it when I find it.
Syd, I probably should reread my posts for accuracy! I'll have to go back and look at the cans again. What I meant when talking of thicking agents was that the Aerodux really does not require one. Epoxy when mixed with it's hardner ( I use West Sys as an example) has a very thin consistency, it's ok for wetting out a surface but not really thick enough to glue joints. You have to add one of several thickening agents to get anywhere from a honey to a paste consistency. I think I wll contact the Aerodux manufacturer to see if it can be thickened a little. The Aerodux, when well mixed, is thicker than regular wood working glue (like titebond), it tends to sag more than run and it does squeeze out of the joint, but I just love that you can wipe the squeeze out with a wet rag!
Update: Well the second ply test failed just as quickly and I am beginning to suspect that this glue prefers a rough surface to bond to. I began to suspect the yellow pine sample, perhaps the board had a defect that I did'nt or could'nt see, so I put it against a curb and hit it hard with a rubber mallet. The piece broke two inches to the right of the glue line, tonight I will drive a prybar into the glue line and see if I can force it apart. My PC framers saw has a planing blade so the surface is smoother than a construction blade. Maybe this is just enough to give the glue a grip. So this weekend (or sooner if I can), I will machine another piece of yellow pine on the bench jointer, and rip a piece of ply and glue them up. I will also follow through on the scarf joints ( I'll use some purple heart in this test also). The jump test is somewhat unscientific, but is the quickest and easiest way to test the bond.
Jim
Ed Harrow
posted 03-15-2000 01:27 PM
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Formaldehyde is wonderful stuff
But if you're in it
Then things have been rough
NormMessinger
posted 03-15-2000 02:03 PM
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Jim, I missed it if you said what kind of joint your are testing with plywood. I imagined a butt joint. No? I doubt any glue would hold on a butt joint in plywood.
--Norm
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 02:45 PM
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Norm, Yes, you are correct sir! I am using But(t) joints ( the weakest kind of joint). I am edge gluing pieces aqbout 2 ft long by 1 ft wide. I don't think there should be an appreciable difference whether wood or plywood. True, the ply is half edge-grain, but still wood. An epoxy resin with microfibers (essentially minute strands of fiberglass) works well with both. I am trying to find the "envelope" that this glue needs to work properly. The article in WB was excellent, but there is no substitution for hands on experience. I want to be comfortable in the knowledge that I have applied the glue properly and have a good structurally sound bond. Of course I will test other joints, scarfs ( 50% edge grain?) and so on. One point that Bob makes is very true, epoxy has a higher tolerance for bonding than other glues. Anyway, if you have any suggestions as to how else to test the Aerodux I am open to all. Oh, and I will get the colors straight.
Jim
redjim777
posted 03-15-2000 02:59 PM
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OK, I got off my lazy *** and this link will (hopefully) take you to CustomPak, they are also looking for people to sell this locally.
http://www.custompak.com
Good Luck,
Jim
P.S. I checked the cans again and the resin is purple and the hardner is the thick brown goo. I chose the butt joint purposely because at the time I was gluing-up a transom.
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 03-15-2000).]
dasboat
posted 03-15-2000 06:06 PM
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Great post,thanks. This forum is like another edition of wb.
ACB
posted 03-16-2000 11:54 PM
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Jim, I wonder of the failure of the ply joints could be due to another characteristic of this stuff - it tendency to capilliary (sp?) attraction. It "wicks" up open end grain like a rat up a drainpipe, and plywood has a lot of end grain and voids which the glue tends to disappear into. You said the joint looked "glue starved" and it had perhaps "starved itself!"
Epoxy gets round this problem because you coat the two halves, allow to set, then use more to make the joint, but resorcinol, which I think depends on a chemical reaction with the timber, can't work this way.
I was told to keep the faying surfaces accurate, but roughened, for best results - get them as good as possible, then scratch them up a bit with coarse sandpaper.
redjim777
posted 03-17-2000 10:03 AM
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Well, I thought the same thing initially, But the second time I glued the ply I used a lot of the Aerodux. When the joint broke along the glue line the second time the joint did not look starved. I will continue to work on this Sat. & Sun.
Jim
Ironmule
posted 03-17-2000 02:21 PM
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Wood flour is a central part of stitch and glue constuction, yet sawdust in a joint is very bad for adhesion. I suppose the mixing process is important in SNG, and there isn't enough mixing going on in a simple joint causing the sawdust to be in the way instead of being a part of the process. Somebody know for sure? JWSmith
redjim777
posted 03-17-2000 02:41 PM
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I have gotten in the habit of vacuuming before gluing. When I first read about this I thought it was overkill, but it does make a big difference. If I don't vacuum I at least brush the joint with a shop brush and wipe it down with acetone. It's my SWAG that if you have enough dust in the joint it might act as a barrier to the glue, like when you put flour in a cake pan prior to pouring in the batter. I'm going to rip and glue the ply tonight, so I'll know more by Saturday night.
redjim777
posted 03-23-2000 10:56 AM
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Well I had to re-deck a dock over the weekend so I was'nt much in the mood to do anything else. Tuesday night I did glue-up two 2 ft long pieces of 3/4 cypress with a 12:1 scarf (scarfed with a router). I used these pieces because they had some grain runout. I waited 36 hours, then positioned the approx 30 inch piece so as to bend it from the tail end with pressure just behind the joint. The first few tries at breaking the joint failed ( about a 3 inch bend ), I then bent the piece further to about 4 inches. At this pont I started to hear wood fibers let go. With a little more pressure the joint split along the glue line. What I saw was the the glue held and the wood broke along the grain runout (which would have been side grain) but where there was significant end grain the glue broke. Assuming that the glue was at full strength ( according to the data sheet it should have been) it would seem to me that the Aerodux does not like any endgrain or that endgrain requires special preparation not noted in the literature. At this point I will probably continue on my boat with the epoxy so as not to fall behind on the project. I will continue to experiment with the Aerodux on end grain and I will write the company for any additional information they night have.
When I know you'll know,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-05-2000 10:50 AM
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Update! I wrote to Dynochem, the manufacturer of Aerodux, and they replied immediately with the information I needed. I have to figure out how to put the full document on the forum, any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-05-2000 07:12 PM
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I thought I would post this part of the "instructions for use", because it deals with one of my original questions:
"Use of extenders:
Wood flour or mineral fillers may be added to increase the viscosity and reduce glue costs.
Lightly filled mix, parts by weight:
Aerodux 500 - 100
Hardner 501 - 100
China Clay - 40
Heavily filled mix, parts by weight:
Aerodux 500 - 100
Hardner 501 - 100
Fine Chalk or China Clay - 200
The lightly filled mix still complies with the requirements of BS 1204; Part 1 (type WBP). It may be necessary to adjust the viscosity of the heavily filled mix with water but the water addition should be kept to a minimum. This mix is suitable for bonding uneven-surfaced boards, such as mineral fiber re-reinforced boards, and where maximum strength and full weatherproof properties are not required."
So you can thicken this glue a little!
Syd MacDonald
posted 04-05-2000 10:58 PM
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Good info Jim. Now,what's china clay?
redjim777
posted 04-06-2000 12:50 PM
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Syd, you know I checked the Texan to English dictionary and the English to English dictionary but I could not find "China Clay". I suspect I could call an art supply store for it, as the company calls it a mineral. Since they also mention "Fine Chalk", I have my nephew collecting chalk dust from his school room ho ho ho!
Jim
Bruce Hooke
posted 04-06-2000 04:07 PM
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China Clay is also called Kaolin; one common variety is sold under the name "E.P.K. Kaolin". The distinctions between the different varieties of Kaolin should be irrelevant in the context under discussion. Any good ceramics supply house will carry it in 50 pound bags and usually in smaller quantities too (5lbs. for under $5 is typical). Most art supply stores will NOT have it - they tend to focus on materials for painting, drawing and such, not more heavy-duty things like ceramics. Since real ceramics supply houses are few and far between here are some mail order sources:
Minnesota Clay (Bloomington, MN): 1-800-252-9872
Bailey (Kingston, NY): 1-800-431-6067
Standard Ceramic Supply (Carnegie, PA): 1-412-276-6333
Continental Clay (Minneapolis, MN): 1-800-432-Clay
- Bruce
[This message has been edited by Bruce Hooke (edited 04-06-2000).]
Richard D-S
posted 04-07-2000 05:33 AM
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this is stimulating stuff!! I work in a college that has a boatbuilding centre in West Wales.
I also run the materials testing lab and am a boatbuilder too!! Heaven!
Anybody want some tests with pounds and oz. numbers (or even Kgs or pascals, whatever they are) drop me a message.
R.Davies@Pembrokeshire.ac.uk
redjim777
posted 04-07-2000 11:25 AM
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Bruce, mucho gracias! I think thast this points to one of the really great things about this forum, with so many different people from so many different backgrounds and regions someone is going to know the answer to your question.
Richard, thanks I may take you up on that!
Have a great weekend, Jim
Bruce Hooke
posted 04-07-2000 12:21 PM
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Jim - Glad I could help.
One more thing I should have noted, Kaolin, like all clays, contains silica, which is unhealthy to breathe in any quantity. In this context it seems unlikely that you would be exposed to enough to really matter, but none-the-less, a good dust mask and/or good ventilation would be in order when you are mixing it in. Any of the suppliers I listed above should be able to supply an MSDS, which will give you the full details on the risks and precautions.
- Bruce
[This message has been edited by Bruce Hooke (edited 04-07-2000).]
TomRobb
posted 04-07-2000 12:30 PM
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Another great thing is the differing backgrounds, experiences, ideas are stimulating. They open us up to a world larger than our own neighborhoods. The catalyst is of course a common love of the water and the boats.
redjim777
posted 04-07-2000 01:13 PM
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I had to be number 8000! Of course it means absolutely nothing but I saw 7,999 posts for this section of the forum and it was way too tempting.
I received an e-mail from Bill Joy the manager for the applications lab at Dynochem. he was responding to my questions on scarf joints.
"With scarf joints you are bonding into end grains. To prevent excessive penetration of the glue allow assembly time of 5-10 minutes before clamping. Similarly, if the wood has been burnished (somebody want to jump in and translate?) the assembly time will prvent excessive squeeze out.
Aerodux adhesive is alkaline setting. high acid wood such as oak or cedar will retard the cure."
Jim
[This message has been edited by redjim777 (edited 04-07-2000).]
Eb
posted 04-07-2000 01:22 PM
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At this rate, probably a week maybe ten days and you can also be 10,000
Eb
wandiwise
posted 04-07-2000 04:42 PM
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Burnished, as in a hard, almost polished finish, a very smooth cut produced by high speed, fine cutting tools.
www
redjim777
posted 04-12-2000 10:28 AM
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Well the last test of the Aerodux went well. I took the advice of Bill Joy and let the glued pieces sit for 10-15 min prior to assembly. I also wiped the joints with acetone before glue application. The Aerodux did skin over and I was concerned with any potential bond at this point. I left the two samples (1x2 cypress & 1x4 white oak) clamped overnight. I released the clamps the next day and left them to cure for an additonal 24 hrs. This morning before work I flexed the cypress to a deflection of approx. 4 in. with no apparent strain on the joint. I flexed the oak to about 2 in. deflection with no problems. Next I placed the cypress against a 3 in curb in the garage and stepped on the joint, it gave only after I bounced on it. The joint gave aong the wood, the glue joint held. I performed the same test on the oak and it was no suprise that I was not able to break it with any amount of jumping. Both joints had been machine finished, I had planed to sand them, but Bill's instructions led me to believe I did'nt need to. Needless to say I am very happy with the results, I really like the water clean-up, as compared to epoxy. The fact that I don't have to add a filler to glue-up parts makes it even more attractive.
THANK YOU WOODENBOAT FOR MAKING THIS ALL POSSIBLE!
Good Luck to Everyone,
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-12-2000 04:11 PM
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I all most forgot to add that I used the left over glue to repair the yellow pine board broken during the edge-gluing experiment. I glued it along the broken edges and it was a rough fit. There was not much glue left, (I clamped it immediately)and after application certainly little squeeze-out, but once again the board broke outside the glue joint.
Jim
redjim777
posted 04-18-2000 04:00 PM
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Well I finally got around to doing some building, not just testing. I glued all of the misc. longitudinal parts to length(19ft+). To test the bond of the Aerodux to the 12:1 scarf joint 36 hours after the clamping I picked up the 1x3x19'8"(net) purpleheart keel from one end like a fishing rod. I then rotated the piece in the air (this caused it to bounce some). The keel thankfully stayed in one piece with no noticable flat spot at the joint and no sounds of cracking. The glue line basically matches the color of the wood.
Jim
ACB
posted 04-19-2000 01:14 AM
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Thanks very much Jim, for a truly outstanding thread, from which I and I am sure many of us have learned a lot!
redjim777
posted 04-19-2000 02:27 PM
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ACB & all thank you for your input and encouragement. I did notice that the fully cured glue was just as brittle as the West Sys glue at full cure. I have to run, but I do have a couple of things to add hopefully I'll get it done Friday.
Thanks,
Jim