Dead kid

[George Roberts]

For many years I have refused to provide any support for organized bicycle rides. My reason is that the rides are unsafe.

Once again I have been proved correct.

The MS150 was this weekend. 600 bicyclists. As usual the organizers boast that safety is important to them. (What they don't say is that every year there is at least one bicycle/car accident.)

The setting: A 2 lane country road "T"ing into OK-16, a 2 lane lightly traveled state numbered road with 14' lanes and 10' shoulders. Large stop sign for traffic on the country lane. Essentially unlimited visibility for a bicyclist on the country lane.

The support: 2 volunteers watching bicyclists not even slow for the stop sign. (I would have expected that they would be ensuring bicyclists stopped for the sign.)

The victim: A fellow driving a semi on OK-16 going to visit relatives.

What happened you ask?: The volunteers watched a 15 year old kid ride his bicycle through the stop sign and into the path of the truck.

The kid died. (It was made clear that he had his helmet on.)

---

Bunch of dumb people in the world. Bet the parents are happy - kid died trying to raise a couple thousand dollars.

[rbgarr]

Yes, George. We're sure the parents are happy, too.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

God damn George, you are such an insensitive a$$+!#* :(
Edited to prevemt Scotting on my birthday

[uncas]

I have bicycled approx 13,000 miles through Europe. I do not bicycle in the US..it is unsafe.
Why?
In the US, kids bicycle up to say 14...they don't follow the laws and bicycles are moving vehicles. They are supposed to stop at traffic signals. Only cars have to stop at stop signs.They bicycle during those periods of their lives when they feel that they are indestructable. Hence, do not have to follow the laws and basically feel immune.
As the majority does not bicycle past the point when they receive their driving lic., they forget everything they have learned.
In Europe, even the older folk bicycle. The have learned the limitations, they respect the laws of the road. They know how to behave when approaching or passing a bicyclist. Why, because they still bicycle.
Only in America do you find any sort of majority wearing helmets
( used to be the case but may have changed ). Why, because many motorists just don't know who to deal with someone on small wheels.

No race is safe. No one bicycling is safe. But to minimize the problems, anyone who bicycles must realize that they are considered a moving vehicle and are subject to the same laws applicable to cars, trucks. etc.
I am sorry the kid died but his mistake was not thinking that he too had to obey the traffic signals.

[Wild Dingo]

Only in America do you find any sort of majority wearing helmets.

ahem... Jamie?... Its an actively policed law here that every person including children wear a helmet some places a $50 others $100 on the spot fine

Just thought Id point that out ;)

Otherwise agree with everything said... still its not a good thing when a kid dies :( sadly its not unusual for the "officials" to do nothing about the riders breaking laws... and again its personal and community responsibility a 15 year old is old enough to be aware that a stop sign means stop and should have learnt that through the years of riding the bike and his parents should and possibly did teach him that a momentary lapse perhaps? but then again if others were doing the same then perhaps a peer thing? and the officials should have made good and sure that EVERYONE followed the laws of the road... the personal responsibility was the kids and his parents to a degree the community responsibility was the organizers and the group of riders with him at the time... very sad :(

[uncas]

Not here in the US but I am open for comments.
Anyone on the forum been ticketed on a bicycle? ( unless there was an accident )
Cops rarely if ever tin the US. ticket a bicyclist unless there is a valid reason such as being involved in an accident.

perhaps I should rephrase the question into two.

How many bicylists werar hemets in the US?
I know it is simple and helmets are relatively cheap but they just ain't COOL!

and

Do said bicylists obey the rules of the road in the US?

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Anyone on the forum been ticketed on a bicycle? ( unless there was an accident )

Got a speeding ticket in a city park. The police must not have submitted the ticket, because when I went in to pay the fine, I was told that the clerks office had no record of the ticket.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Numeriouse attempts to ticket me were made by NYC Finest while I was a bike messenger. None of them were able to catch me though :D
I was however pulled over in NJ while cycling without a helmet, but since I did not have a valid drivers license the could not issue me a ticket. I did get a warning, good thing I let my licence expire and road my bike imstead :)

[pcford]

I am so sorry for the kid. Those in charge need to follow traffic rules.

Another one of my pet topics:

In Seattle, there are a huge number of people that commute to work on bikes. They are absolutely lawless. They disregard traffic laws whenever it is to their benefit. If one would watch a stop sign not once out of ten bike riders will stop for it, unless traffic renders it impossible to proceed. They ride at extreme speeds on our local urban/suburban trails. If a couple is walking with a kid and the kid moves quickly the kid will get mowed down by a speeding bicyclist. My gf has a friend whose mother was hit by one of these boy racers and she never walked properly again. I was going south on Roosevelt in the University district; I was doing about 35. There was a bike on the sidewalk that was going faster. They use sidewalk..or....street....whatever suits them. Recently a woman was knocked under a bus and killed by a bicyclist on the sidewalk.

In over 30 years in Seattle, I have never seen a bicyclist stopped by a cop, not once. How many more people have to be killed or crippled before law enforcement does its job?

[crawdaddyjim50]

AAAAAGGGHHH! There should be a tax on all bicycle sales (somewhere around the 5k mark for road racing bikes). The money could then be used to biuld a bike lane away from the road and sidewalks. More people are hurt on bikes in Orlando due to the roads not having room for both. I do believe that these wannabe Lance Armstrongs do ride out in the traffic just to be offensive. The ones that ride around Glenwood often will go out three or four wide just to block traffic. They often weave in and out knowing the older drivers will not chance going around them. Funny they do pull over and line up when pickups go by.......

[pcford]

Maybe the first and last time I agree with anything crawdad writes.
Get this:
In Seattle there is a group called Critical Mass. They get several hundred bicyclists and ride around town in a clump that covers the entire side of street from yellow line to sidewalk and is about a block long. Plugs up traffic totally. Police usually do nothing. Recently, one of them fought a couple Sheriffs when the sheriffs tried to stop them from disregarding stop signs. Big fuss in city, police apologised. The defense of bike riders was that the Hell's Angels do it.

[uncas]

I have seen parents bicyling with their kids. The kids wear helmets but the parents don't. I guess some of them think they have adequate life insurance.

[JimD]

Sure, we're all sorry somebody died. But I knew that running a stop sign on a bicycle is a good way to get killed long before I was fifteen. Bet most of the rest of you knew that, too.

[Meerkat]

So, for many years, 100's if not 1,000's of kids rode in bike ralleys/races and ONE KID gets killed. What's the safety ratio in that?

In most on-road bike races I've seen, the safety officials stop traffic to let the pack ride through. What happened this time? Where there not even any warning signs posted?

To characterise the driver of a multi-ton vehicle as "the victim" in this tragedy is simply barbaric, insensitive and evil.

You ought to get that morally righteous uptight broomstick pulled out of your butt George.

[Thin water]

Crawdad, I have seen the riders around DeLand area who ride three accross. I have ridden up behind many of them without them even looking back to see what was behind them. They take note when I hit the air horn and siren at the same time! It is something worth seeing as they nearly go airborne. Press hard five copies, drive safely and have a nice day!

[Meerkat]

Granted that some bike riders play fast and lose with traffic laws, but they do have a right to be on the road just the same.

One thing that really bugs me is car drivers that force bike riders off the road/off to the side because they want to pass, instead of pulling out and around them just like they were passing another car.

[uncas]

Basic rules of the road apply to bicyclists and motorists. Meer.
You are correct. When drivers realize bikes are moving vehicles in all but shape, and propulsion, well. you won't have this problem.

[pcford]

Granted that some bike riders play fast and lose with traffic laws, but they do have a right to be on the road just the same.

One thing that really bugs me is car drivers that force bike riders off the road/off to the side because they want to pass, instead of pulling out and around them just like they were passing another car.

Given that they right to the road then do they have to obey traffic laws?

[George Roberts]

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson ) ---

I feel sorry for the truck driver.

---

[Meerkat]

Given that they right to the road then do they have to obey traffic laws?Of course, under most circumstances. GR described an unusual circumstance.

I've seen a lot of bike riders pull up to a red light, check the traffic and then ride through. Illegal? yup. Common sense? yup. Makes me wish I in my car could do the same. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about getting chilled down while waiting for the light to change, nor deal with the traffic when the light does change - traffic that generally ignores bike rider's rights in the first place.

[George Roberts]

Meerkat ---

The MS150 is a casual ride. 2 days of 75 miles at your own pace.

There was no reason for anyone to not stop at the stop sign.

---

That turn from the country road to the highway is a turn I used to make almost everyday for sevarl years - on a bicycle. Currently: both roads are flat and in excellent conditon, there are no objects to obstruct the view of the bicyclist. He should have seen the sign. He should have seen the truck.

The people who organized the ride - for their own profit will not get the blame they deserve.

---

And now when I ride thru that turn, I am going to remember that stupid kid, that stupid group, and perhaps make a mistake on my bicycle. (So will everyone else who rode there in the past.)

---

Around Tulsa 20-50 people get hit by cars on organized rides each year. From my point of view - the fault was more often than not the bicyclist's or the organizer's (usually a poor choice of routes). Every couple years one gets killed.

---

Organized events: bike rides, foot races, car rallies, don't belong on the public roads.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

George Roberts - I feel sorry for YOU.

[George Roberts]

Meerkat ---

"GR described an unusual circumstance."

Actually the circumstances are typical of the group rides around here except there are no volunteers watching traffic for the bicyclists.

I have seen groups of bicyclilsts several hundred people descend a steep hill and travel through the stop sign at the bottom at 40+mph. By chance no one got killed. (I happened to be on the road that day. I went down the same hill at 20mph, stopped at the stop sign, and was cursed by the bicyclists who had to pass me.)

[pcford]

Of course, under most circumstances. GR described an unusual circumstance.

I've seen a lot of bike riders pull up to a red light, check the traffic and then ride through. Illegal? yup. Common sense? yup. Makes me wish I in my car could do the same. On the other hand, I don't have to worry about getting chilled down while waiting for the light to change, nor deal with the traffic when the light does change - traffic that generally ignores bike rider's rights in the first place.

Calling bull**** on that David. My gf works every day in downtown Seattle. Every day she has to dodge bicyclists that consider themselves above the law. It's not common sense that bike riders can ignore traffic laws.

This is similar to the local discussion about panhandling. Those that do not work downtown have no idea what is actually going on. They can afford to advocate "freedom" for lawless bike riders and abusive, physically threatening panhandlers.

Since the city has tightened the laws on panhandling downtown has been much better for those that must work there.

Hothouse liberals that think otherwise can think the way they do because they are not involved first hand.

Downtown would be better if lawless bike rider behavior was cracked down like the panhandling behavior of several years ago. If everyone...cars and bike riders alike had to obey the traffic laws, downtown Seattle would be a better place.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

How many people are killed every year in auto acidents? .How many children are killed every year in auto acidents ? .How many kids are killed riding a bike through a stop sign ? .Do the math. Then open a fresh can of SHUT THE HELL UP.

[pcford]

How many people are killed every year in auto acidents? .How many children are killed every year in auto acidents ? .How many kids are killed riding a bike through a stop sign ? .Do the math. Then open a fresh can of SHUT THE HELL UP.

I don't know, my boring bald-headed real estate salesman friend. Do you? And until you can answer the question, I suggest you could do the same.

But I can name two people, one recent here in town and one known to my gf (hit by a bike messenger, by the way, I would offer that there might just be a problem. Furthermore, death statistics are not the only difficulty...one is constantly worrying about being hit by one of these dirtbags.

Downtown Seattle is getting worse with both car and bike riders that ignore laws. And as I said, there is a group that is dedicated to actually dedicated to flouting traffic laws. It's a problem.

[Meerkat]

Wow, they sound really dedicated dedicated! ;)

[pcford]

Wow, they sound really dedicated dedicated! ;)

Got it. Thanks Donn.

[uncas]

Just thinking about this.
Has anyone ever see a question regarding cyclists on a drivers' test? I mean, there are questions about school buses..usually several, pedestrians..usually several but bicyclists...?

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Additionaly how many 17 & 18 year old new drivers do you see speeding through developments where kids are suposed to feel safe to ride bikes ?I have had more attepts on my life by moronic drivers litteraly trying to run me off the road. When I am lawfully cycling on the shoulder and obeying all traffic laws. I've had more bottles & cans and garbage thrown at me in the thousands of miles I have ridden than any pedestrian or car driver would ever tolerate. Pick on cyclist as much as you want, but if there were more cyclists than auto's there would be far less death. Less fuel consumed, less polution & less fat Americans.

[Meerkat]

IIRC, there was some on the Colorado Driver's test that I took shortly before the dinosaurs died out... ;)

[Brian Palmer]

I bike to work (3 miles) 3 to 5 days a week. I pulled my kids in a bike trailer and on a trail-a-bike. Now I still ride with my kids. We all wear helmets and stop for the stop signs. I even use hand signals for left hand turns. The number of idiots on bikes doesn't even begin to come close to the number of idiots with cars.

What happened in the MS 150 bike ride was sad, whether it was the kid's fault, the ride organizers' fault, or nobody's fault.

Kids get killed everyday in cars, on bikes, in swimming pools, by abusive relatives, in unregulated work places in developing countries, and blown up in war zones across the globe. Where's the outrage over that, GR?

-- Brian

[uncas]

I've had more bottles & cans and garbage thrown at me in the thousands of miles I have ridden than any pedestrian or car driver would ever tolerate.

Joe did you get a good look at the drivers. Perhaps a few can now be found on the forum.

:)... I had to...I just had to...I could not resist. Slap my face.

[Paul Girouard]

Well I bet you can all agree thats it GWB's fault:rolleyes:

Kids in general around here , walk / ride / skate board with little or no reguard for car traffic. They walk into intersections without looking , are they right ? Sure, some are dead right.:(

Come on it Darwinism at its best, I feel bad for the driver and the stupid kids friends / family .

Very surprised this is a going thread , you all love ole Darwin.

Same oh same oh city / country /county ,etc.

[uncas]

Perhaps it would not be a bad idea if maunuals for getting one's lic. has a short chapter on oh, bicyclists, what to expect from them and what to be aware of. And then have a question or two on the test.

[Meerkat]

Adulthood is the fine art of having survived being a thoughtless invulnerable kid... ;)

[Paul Girouard]

but if there were more cyclists than auto's there would be far less death. Less fuel consumed, less polution & less fat Americans.

How'd you get to work today Joe :rolleyes: Bike or :eek: car!

[uncas]

Hell, he went by boat! He just had his clients DRIVE to the Chapel and then walk to the end of the dock.

[skuthorp]

We've had an elderly pedestrian killed by a cyclist racing through a red light recently. Saturday mornings they have what is euphemisticly called the 'Hell Ride' along a beach boulevard around the bay. It's not a race, it's not official, but sometimes a pack of a hundred or so very competitive riders block up the road and ride at speed taking sometimes scant notice of road rules.
This time some riders had stopped, one rode through and hit and killed the elderly man on a red lighted crossing. Not the first time someone has been hit of course, and the ride has arttracted attention before.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Not here in the US but I am open for comments.
Anyone on the forum been ticketed on a bicycle? ( unless there was an accident )
Cops rarely if ever tin the US. ticket a bicyclist unless there is a valid reason such as being involved in an accident.

perhaps I should rephrase the question into two.

How many bicylists werar hemets in the US?
I know it is simple and helmets are relatively cheap but they just ain't COOL!

and

Do said bicylists obey the rules of the road in the US?

Got a ticket in NYC on a bike back in 96... running a red light and speeding. Jerks. Luckily I had court ID on me from the 52nd precinct, so they let me off with a "stern" warning.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Sign & Print :D

[KNOCKABOUT]

Sign & Print

[George Roberts]

As reported on today's news by the slightly older sister of the dead kid:

She was riding just behind him. He was going to stop, but the volunteer directed him to continue and into the path of the truck. The sister hollered for him to stop, but ...

The MS150 people are not available for comment.

Yesterday's ride was continued in spite of the death. Today's return ride was canceled due to rain. I guess refunds are in order.

[George Jung]

Additionaly how many 17 & 18 year old new drivers do you see speeding through developments where kids are suposed to feel safe to ride bikes ?...... Pick on cyclist as much as you want, but if there were more cyclists than auto's there would be far less death. Less fuel consumed, less polution & less fat Americans.

Think Amsterdam; I read somewhere (?NYTimes?) there are many more bicycles than small autos there, for just those reasons. And the public there has embraced the conservation/health issues, as well.

[Meerkat]

According to Rick Steves (the Europe Through The Backdoor travel guy), many N. European train stations have bike rental agencies.

I think it's in Copenhagen that they have free bike use: you put a coin in a slot to release the bike and when you put it back in the rack at the other end, you get the same value coin back.

[essaunders]

I ran my errands (to Lowes for tack cloth and the supermarket for icecream) using my bike today. I believe I rode a total of about 7 miles. I remember seeing several people looking at me strangely... as I waited for a red light. ( I'm pretty sure the inductive trigger didn't sense my bike -- but that's another story...) It seemed much more pleasant to run my errands by bike than car... until I got on the section of the road with little-to-no shoulder.

Ok. I don't appear to have a point, but agree that riding in traffic in the US (in fairly car-centric part of my state) is somewhat difficult/stressful. I

[StevenBauer]

As reported on today's news by the slightly older sister of the dead kid:

She was riding just behind him. He was going to stop, but the volunteer directed him to continue and into the path of the truck. The sister hollered for him to stop, but ...



Seems like this incident is the fault of the volunteer, no? Were they instructed to wave the riders throught the stop sign or did they just do it on their own? Probably be decided in court. :(

Steven

[George Roberts]

StevenBauer ---

I would like to agree that it is the volunteer's fault but ...

When you run 660 bicyclists up a road (to a food stop 1 mile away), have them make a "U"-turn, and then run them back down the road, you create all sorts of problems for drivers.

With an organized ride of this size, there is a lot of visual noise for drivers as well as the volunteers. I expect there were bicyclists riding 2 abreast in both directions in the traffic lanes and on the shoulder. All riding at diferent speeds.

I expect that had the kid been the only bicyclist on the road that day and had not stopped for the stop sign that the truck would not have hit him.

I think the people who created the visual noise - the ride organizers, are responsible.

---

[geeman]

SLightly off thread but,,, Yesterday on the way to work Wife and I saw a motorcycle rider pass a car on a country road,punch it and did a wheelie justttt in front of the car as he got back in the proper lane.IDIOT!

[uncas]

Bicycles probably do outnumber cars in Amsterdam.
I enjoyed bicycling there and throughout Holland, Germany, France, Belgium, Austria, Switzerland, Sweden, Denmark. Scotland, Englandf, even Itialy with the really crazy drivers.
Only problem encountered in Amsterdam and a few other cities.
Dutch bikes have very wide tires. Mine had skinny ones and some of those cobbled streets, well, caught my front wheel between the cobbles on more than one occasion.

Glad I wore a hemet.

[brad9798]

The truck driver IS a victim TOO!

How would like to know that you killed a kid when you were doing nothing wrong?

There are TWO victims to this story and the organizers of the ride should be held responsible.

George is not an a$$ to say the driver was a victim. And quite frankly, I don't blame him for being mad about it.

Poor damned kid too!

A shame all around.

[Paul Pless]

I agree completely Brad.

[George Roberts]

brad9798 ---

Thank you.

Rough on the sister also. Rougher than is should be.

[brad9798]

Agreed, George.

And thank you both ... to me it's common sense that the driver was/is a victim too!

[Tar Devil]

My dad once struck a kid that darted in front of his car (thank God, he survived).

Faultless drivers are, indeed, victims as well.

Later,

Phil

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

I never questioned the veracity of ALL the victims in this tragedy. I'm certain that the driver, parents, and organizers will agonies over this for a long time, some forever.

I call George Roberts an insensitive a$$wipe because of comments like this.


---

Bunch of dumb people in the world. Bet the parents are happy - kid died trying to raise a couple thousand dollars.

If I was the parent of the child and some a$$wipe said this in front of me they would be picking their teeth off the floor.

[Donn]

http://www.freakingnews.com/entries/9000/9283sxAW_w.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

http://www.i3igd.com/sa/animated/cowbellsmall.gif

[Backfin]

Did I show you my new boatshoes? They're totally awesome.

http://strangecosmos.com/images/content/10429.jpg

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Ohh battle of the silly GIFS :rolleyes:

http://strangecosmos.com/images/content/110912.gif

[Backfin]

You win.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

You win.

http://strangecosmos.com/images/content/104623.gif

And don't you forget it ;)

[John Gearing]

I used to regularly ride 5 miles each way to work in Silicon Valley on some very congested roads. I found it safer to ride (legally--it had a bike lane) on a divided highway that had traffic lights and cross streets. I obeyed all traffic laws. At intersections I would take my place in the middle of the right lane. Thanks to right on red, it was easy to get run over if you were off to the right. Drivers just don't look that way. They are looking left, turning right, and there you are...invisible until they hear the crunch. I've got a right to use the road to drive/ride safely and that's what I did. When I had to turn left to a different road it was sometimes possible to get in the left hand turn lane with the cars at the red light. Most drivers were good about this, as I was in pretty good shape and could get moving instantly when the light changed. Note that I never split lanes with cars the way that motorcycles do (legally) in California. Sometimes at tough intersections I would walk the bike across via the crosswalks, then remount when I was on the next road. The scariest part was having to constantly watch my rear view mirror for errant cars. On the ride home there was one exit off the expressway that was set up like a ramp on a freeway (i.e. no traffic lights) and I would always watch carefully and blast past it. I was fortunate in that Silicon Valley was in general very friendly towards bikes. There was even a special bikeway that ran from Mtn View from downtown Palo Alto, and I lived a block from it. But I have also ridden in suburban Atlanta, which was very scary indeed. Most motorists seemed to assume that if you were on a bike you belonged on a sidewalk. If you had the termerity to be on the road, you had better be able to ride a six-inch strip at the edge of the pavement.

Europe was much much better. Drivers were extremely understanding. On a narrow winding road through French fields a man in a Mercedes drove slowly behind me until there was enough room to safely pass. And when they pass, they go way over into the other lane--give you plenty of room.

I rode numerous organized rides in the San Franscisco area and no one ever was killed. I never even heard of an injury due to a collision with a car.

That said, I've noticed that many "jes folks" who ride on the separate bike trails you sometimes see have no idea how to ride safely. They will ride up behind walkers and never say a word....just blow by. And not just the racer wannabes, I'm talking Mom Dad and the Kiddies on their big heavy slow mtn bikes. Or they will let their kids ride all over the path because basically the kids are too little to ride properly. I've nearly been injured on several occaisions because even though I had slowed down to just more than their speed, and was calling out to them that I was passing, little Junior, who doesn't listen to his parents let alone a stranger adult, veered his toy bike right in front of me. Lucky for us all that I ride on the hoods and have massive canti's on a light bike, good balance and fast reflexes. And most boy racers who pass me these days don't bother to say "on your left!" like we used to.

[Ian McColgin]

Events - bikathons, walkathons, roadraces, etc etc - are organized, permitted and planned for. Of course they disrupt traffic and create some modest delay. BFD. Part of a driver's obligation when driving is to deal with all manner of organized and permitted delays, and not just events. There's construction, road work and utility work going on as well. A driver does not - NOT - have a right to barrel along through an intersection just because he does not face a stop sign.

If the visability was so wonderful and the volunteer was signalling the cyclist to come ahead, he or she must have also been standing such that the driver could see and anticipate. This was not a case of the kid charging out from a blind spot.

From the news thus far, I can't make the driver out to be a victem of anything but his own assumptions and his own lack of proper driving attitude.

[troutman]

I got to believe that when you compare miles ridden on bikes vs deaths its saver than lying in the bath tub. Hope your kid's safe.