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Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 06:40 AM
Correct me if I have it wrong but wasn’t Ann Richards the governor who invited the army in to kill almost 100 people (including about 25% children) in order to serve a bench warrant on one of them?

Ann Richards…gone to whatever reward she deserves…

ljb5
09-14-2006, 06:54 AM
That's a very distorted way of looking at it.

I don't think that was her intention at the time.

That's like saying United Airlines provided the terrorists with their means of attack on 9/11.

Milo Christensen
09-14-2006, 07:14 AM
Whoa. Allen, WTF is wrong with you? Ann Richards was a class act all the way. I loved to just listen to her speak. Her zingers were classic.

You have a serious problem somewhere to make the statement you've made to start this thread. WTF? Or are you some kind of Branch Davidian survivor? You know that they split into two sects, don't you? Orthodox and Extra Crispy.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 07:30 AM
Okay...is everyone still bored?

Richards was the yes-man (woman) who made it possible for Reno to circumvent the Posse Comitatus act of 1878

http://www.dojgov.net/posse_comitatus_act.htm

Mrleft8
09-14-2006, 07:46 AM
How many more poor black people did she have put to death than Dubya?

ljb5
09-14-2006, 07:50 AM
Richards was the yes-man (woman) who made it possible for Reno to circumvent the Posse Comitatus act of 1878


I think you need to check your facts (again), Phillip.

Mount Carmel was raided by the BATF on February 28, 1993.

Janet Reno was not confirmed as Attorney General until March 11, 1993.

The federal investigation and build-up to the raid had been going on for months --- while G.H.W.Bush was in office and William Barr was the Attorney General.

Milo Christensen
09-14-2006, 07:51 AM
Why did the Davidians commit mass suicide?
They were trying to keep up with the Joneses.

What do you call a gay Branch Davidian?
A flaming faggot!

Did you hear about the new Davidian Branch holy day?
Ash Monday

What do you call a Branch Davidian with a fire extinguisher?
A heretic.

Joe (SoCal)
09-14-2006, 08:00 AM
Branch Davidian's were total psycho whacko's why do people get all upset about them. Gezzus give me a break :rolleyes: people please pick the people you choose to defend with more care. Sheesh just cause the ATF SNAFU so what. Would you be as upset if the NYPD busted into a crack house and the ****e hit the fan and the place blew up. I don't think there would be such a outcry from the Ted Kazinky, Timothy McVea personal militia wacko's set :rolleyes:

What's up with people that use Ruby Ridge and Branch Davidian's as a rallying cry but have no problem with secrete CIA jails using alternative methods of interrogation ?? What's up with that. I never got the whole militia freaky thing. I know I don't want some compound with wacko gun hoarding cult next door to me. DO you?

Ian McColgin
09-14-2006, 08:00 AM
I missed this one when I started my obit thread. But this thread seems more about defending the posse (why not add the unconstitutionality of income tax?) and such than celebrating the great Texas tradition of liberal populism.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:04 AM
Wheeeeeee!

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:06 AM
I personally don't care if it was George Bush or George Washington who sent the army into kill those children and their parents.

Reminding you that the BATF does not own tanks...the army does

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:08 AM
of the many (no doubt) cameras pointing at the compound at the same time...how come they all malfunctioned at the same time?

Milo Christensen
09-14-2006, 08:10 AM
Look, if you want to stir the sh!t, start it without reference to someone millions of people respect, including many conservatives. I may not have agreed with all of Ann Richard's politics, but I respected her as a person of integrity. I am deeply offended by this thread.

Or, you know, go back and reread the last two or three threads where you and ljb5 did the nit picking on this whole Reno/Waco thing.

Joe (SoCal)
09-14-2006, 08:12 AM
I personally don't care if it was George Bush or George Washington who sent the army into kill those children and their parents.

Reminding you that the BATF does not own tanks...the army does

:rolleyes: Go rent a shack and write a manifesto already its done it's over get used to it.

If the Wako WAcko's did not horde guns and try to barricade themselves in a hostage situation they all could have walked out unharmed.

Why do I even try some people are just militia militants. You might be able to try that in a place as remote as WAKO but just try to barricade yourself with a CULT of woman and children and automatic weapons in NYC. There would not even had been a chance to call the BATF NYPD would have taken care of the situation quick :D

Give me a freaking rest.
I got to fly out to a funeral now see ya all Sunday.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:13 AM
You may respect her but I can find folks who respect others you may wonder at...Stalin, or GW Bush to give a couple of wide apart examples...your respect is yours and you're welcome to it but it does not compel me to respect the same person

ljb5
09-14-2006, 08:16 AM
Phillip, if you want to re-hash Waco, go right ahead.

There are certainly many aspects of it that deserve closer scrutiny.

However, I think you are stretching well beyond the limits of logic when you try to link this to Richards and Reno.

geeman
09-14-2006, 08:19 AM
They were nutcases,they refused to come out.A warrant was issued which they ignored.All they had to do was come out,thats all they had to do.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:21 AM
All nut cases (AND THEIR CHILDREN) should be burned then?

uncas
09-14-2006, 08:23 AM
Phillip
Two questions, Who burned whom? I have a feeling that they burned themselves up.
Those inside the compound basically committed suicide.
two: Okay, say you were governor and this situation occurred in your state, what would you have done?

Perhaps she made a few mistakes but given the situation, what could she have done differently, send them a registered letter?

ljb5
09-14-2006, 08:25 AM
I can't find any justification for your comment that they 'circumvented posse comitatus.'

It appears that they employed certain aspects of that law.

I can't find any justification for your criticism of Richards other than that she trusted the federal government.

Are you suggesting that Richards had foreknowledge of the snafu that would result and she maliciously called on the feds?

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:27 AM
in response to Uncas
The attacking forces (whose cameras failed and who later bulldozed the evidence and who also kept the fire dept back till all was on the ground and who later confessed to throwing pyrotechnic devices into the buildings) burned the kids who were found with gas masks on and in a bus in the basement...

uncas
09-14-2006, 08:33 AM
Phillip...so what you are saying is that Richards was wrong to pull in fed. gov. assistance. After doing that, the federal agencies did the above or as you say. Is it her fault the federal agencies blew it?
And regarding the firemen, as an ex fireman, and EMT, I would not like to be in potential harms way, killed by some radicals who may have been alive in the building because I was sent in to put out a fire.
Firemen have enough worries about not being burned or injured putting a fire out. Dodging bullets should not be a concern.
And if any firemen had been killed in this manner, can you hear the screaming by many saying that they should not have been sent in under those conditions.

I biting at your thread as you seem to be bored and looking for something to liven things up.

Mrleft8
09-14-2006, 08:36 AM
What's your point Phillip? Are you suggesting that she doesn't deserve an obit? Are you suggesting that she should be held up as an example of bad government? Are you suggesting that she intended that the branch Davidians should all die? Or are you just being a mean spirited cry baby?

geeman
09-14-2006, 08:38 AM
One small problem here,,Why were they in the building to start with?Was the govt supposed to not do what it had to do to serve a legal warrant simply because they didnt wish to be served?What would that have said to other people that didnt want a warrant served in the future?Ignore it and they'll go away?Yes there were kids in the building,I dont think anyone wanted those kids to die.As their leader his responsiblilty was to their safety,all he had to do was come out as simple as that.And I dont think they were burned out on purpose.Remember they WERE SHOOTING at people at the time.As I recall after the fire started fire fighters were kept back in case of explosions.Yes it was a shame about the kids,but the govt didnt put them there,the govt didnt force them to stay in the building.NOBODY forced NYBODY to stay in that building.Officers were getting killed trying to serve the warrant BEFORE the building was razed.

uncas
09-14-2006, 08:38 AM
Phillip.
Answer my second question. I'm curious.

ljb5
09-14-2006, 08:39 AM
Firemen have enough worries about not being burned or injured putting a fire out. Dodging bullets should not be a concern.

Amen. As a former firefighter, I have been in several situations where we were not able to render assistance because of the danger of the situation.

It's nice to be able to help, but there's nothing I can do for someone who is actively bringing about their own destruction --- and trying to do the same to me.

------------------------------------------------

Phillip 'forgot' to mention the audio tape of the Branch Davidians as they poured gasoline around the compound and discussed their plans to set it on fire.

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
09-14-2006, 08:39 AM
What's your point Phillip? ...Or are you just being a mean spirited cry baby?

Its a "Troll post" for goodness sake - what sane man gloats over the death of a fellow countryman (or woman)?

<User CP> <Buddy/ignore lists> or whatever.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:40 AM
Give her an obit…but remember that she made a serious mistake in inviting those killers in. I don’t remember if she apologized or not.

Uncas…I too was a fireman…firemen put themselves at risk to save property and lives…I certainly did.

uncas
09-14-2006, 08:41 AM
Were you ever asked to dodge bullets?
Oh, my second question...no comment?

Milo Christensen
09-14-2006, 08:42 AM
What's your point Phillip?

Oh y'all knows what dat be bout, dem arksaw boys be still fumin bout her vetoin' lettin dem texican boys shoot wid dat cop killer ammo from out o dem autymatic rifles dem good ole arksaw boys be wantin ter sell dem texican boys all de time.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:47 AM
To Uncas's second question...I don't know but hind sight suggest they should have stayed back and offered medical help for the residents already shot by the BATF and made concessions they apparently did not make. Remember! ... the guy the warrant was for was in town nearly every day and by himself...it would seem there was an unwritten agenda by the BATF... the failed cameras and more witnesses should have been questioned...the evidence should have been preserved and not bull dozed ...there should have been an independent investigation by someone other than those who owed allegiance to the folks with an interest in a whitewash...

uncas
09-14-2006, 08:52 AM
hind sight is 20x20. There are many things I have done in my life that if I had hind sight, I would have done something else.
So, you kinda answered the question but I was not looking for hind sight. I was rather looking for what you would have done at that moment in time as Richards had to do.

ps..If I had been a fireman at Waco and been told to go in, I would have refused to go. Bullets flying around just would not have appealed to me. I'm still glad that I was a vol. in a very small town where the only fighting occurred in the firehouse...Politics in a small pond ( town ).

ljb5
09-14-2006, 08:55 AM
There should have been an independent investigation by someone other than those who owed allegiance to the folks with an interest in a whitewash...

Actually, there were several.

Several of the Branch Davidians were convicted of crimes against the U.S. in a jury trial.

The House Committee on Government Reform concluded that the Davidians started the fire.

The Danforth Report concluded that the Davidians started the fire.

In 2000, an advisory Jury found in favor of the government on all counts and concluded that the BATF acted within the law.

-----------------------------

As someone who obviously cares a lot about this, surely you were aware of these investigations?

geeman
09-14-2006, 08:59 AM
Lets not forget the officers shot BEFORE they razed the building,,,,,,,,,

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 09:01 AM
Lets not forget the officers shot BEFORE they razed the building,,,,,,,,,

We might have asked if the Dividians shot officers or men in black who were running at and shooting into the house

geeman
09-14-2006, 09:05 AM
That doesnt fly Phil,they KNEW they were officers when they shot them,It still comes down to them refusing to exit the building,and shooting at sworn officers legally trying to execute a warrant.

uncas
09-14-2006, 09:06 AM
And those letters, " FBI " on the back of those jackets in bright yellow letters should be a hint.

ljb5
09-14-2006, 09:07 AM
Phillip, in your opinion, do the Davidians bear any responsibility for anything that happened?

I think most of us acknowledge that the government's response was far from perfect.... but the whole situation was SNAFU from the very beginning.

It is quite unreasonable to think the BATF and FBI could enter a situation like that and do everything perfectly. Even if they had done everything perfectly, it's likely the result would have been the same.

Sometimes they call it 'suicide by cop.' There's almost nothing that can be done.

Surely some of the blame rests of the criminals who created the situation, no?

geeman
09-14-2006, 09:29 AM
As a rule I tend to side with the underdog,but in these cases I find it impossible to do so when their actions bring about their own destruction.Its a shame that people such as this cause innocent people to lose life and or property but people such as these CANNOT be allowed to take over a whole neighborhood and hold innocent citizens hostage.Which is what these people were doing.Yes they have rights ,but their rights CANNOT override other peoples rights.Hindsight is a wonderful thing,if it had gone differently and the police had been able to get them out without a shot they would have been hero's.It doesnt always work out that way in the real world.People refuse lawful orders,they have to expect the worst.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 09:37 AM
Lawful orders come and lawful orders go...Japanese should be locked up for instance...Jews not allowed to use public beaches and also colored people must use the side entrance and sit in designated areas...so much for lawful orders

ljb5
09-14-2006, 09:42 AM
Lawful orders come and lawful orders go...Japanese should be locked up for instance...Jews not allowed to use public beaches and also colored people must use the side entrance and sit in designated areas...so much for lawful orders

Another tremendous stretch of logic....

Surely you don't mean to imply that all colored people have stashes of illegal weapons and molest children?

Just because some 'lawful' orders are abhorrent does not mean that all lawful orders should be disobeyed!!

htom
09-14-2006, 09:51 AM
Hmmph.

Just dropped in to remind everyone that the firemen (and women) were not allowed to approach the Branch Davidian fire; "it was decided" that for them to do so would be dangerous.

Who would be shooting at them, intentionally or by mistake, was never discussed.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 10:01 AM
I believe they were kept back against their inclinations and to prevent them from becoming witness against the BATF

geeman
09-14-2006, 10:02 AM
Remember in a situation such as that,its not necessary for a person to be firing a weapon for people to get shot during or after a fire.Bullets can go off from the heat alone.

geeman
09-14-2006, 10:04 AM
Were there reports from the fire guys complainnng that they WANTED to go in and were not allowed to? If so please inform us of such Phil.It may be so but I dont recall it mentioned in reports I saw.

uncas
09-14-2006, 10:06 AM
The desire for survival against something they were no trained to combat...bullets...kept them back.
Some people may be suicidal, I'm not one.
Then again, firemen and women may be just a wee bit suicidal. It is a dangerous job!
Just look at what is happening to those ( and policemen/women ) who were at ground "0".

Chris Coose
09-14-2006, 10:08 AM
When political opponents would seek to trash Ann about her alcoholism she'd turn it around by saying she'd tended to her problem and then ask how they were doing with their drinking. End of debate.

Feisty Texan she was.

htom
09-14-2006, 10:39 AM
There's a lot of just plain ignorance in this threat about what happened at the Branch Davidian compound.

The initial raid was by BATF, not the FBI, so their armour would have said "ATF".

No one at the trial credibly claimed to have had a warrant.

None of the fifteen or twenty practice raids included either knocking or presenting a warrant.

Pyrotechnic rounds were fired by the FBI during the final raid. http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/director_staff/public_information/branch_davidian/rangerreport.pdf

Google "branch davidian waco" for more links that you'll ever want to visit. If you want a summary, http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/waco/primary.html or http://religiousmovements.lib.virginia.edu/nrms/bran.html

uncas
09-14-2006, 10:43 AM
I used the FBI as an example of what is spelled out on the uniforms. I could not remember the other agencies involved at Waco. Ignorance of the logos for the others involved, I will admit to.
It was an example of what federal agents, regardless as to the color of their jackets, have pasted in large letters on the back which are extremely visible..

geeman
09-14-2006, 11:07 AM
Knowing they had arms in there,who in their right mind would walk up to the door and simply "knock?

glenallen
09-14-2006, 11:30 AM
It's over, Phillip! If you're really concerned about burned kids see what you can do to get GW to get us out of Iraq. That's not over and some kids will likely get burned today.

htom
09-14-2006, 11:45 AM
Letters on your back identify you if you're running away, or planning to be on TV. If you're hiding your face in a ski mask, I think you're a cowardly thug, regardless of what your jacket says you are. The "marks of authority" in this country are supposed to be the badge and warrant, not the ski mask, gun, and kill-the-dogs-first full-on surprize assault.

geeman -- peaceful people did, repeatedly, including the local Sheriff. That the BATF mob did otherwise says a great deal more about them than it does about their victims.

geeman
09-14-2006, 11:51 AM
"Repeatedly" Tom.It appears that tho they tried to "do it right" it didnt work.Those folks had as you say numerous chances to come out, they refused,I cant agree with your assertion that they were "victims"

htom
09-14-2006, 12:39 PM
Any number of people walked up to their door and knocked without being shot at, is perhaps a better way of saying it. Including the local Sheriff. It was ATF that couldn't be bothered to do so. They did not try to do that, they only tried to take the place by force, having called in the local TV crews to watch.

If they were trying to "do it right" they should have practiced that.

They didn't.

I call people who are subjected to surprize attacks victims. I call attackers who are surprized at resistance to being attacked "fools". When they claim that they were ambushed, I think of them as "liars", and I'll call them that, too.

Ian McColgin
09-14-2006, 01:06 PM
It wasn't US Army tanks that caused the posse contratemps. Ann Richards was named in a lawsuit because she authorized the use of three Texas National Guard helocopters to fly over. It's been prooven that none of the 'copters was armed with permanently mounted guns. There is disputed terstimoney as to whether the BAFT and/ or FBI riding in the 'copters were armed and/or fired. The court verdict was that it could not be proven they fired.

Whether it's Native Americans, SLA, other radical, white supremicists, gun freaks or religious oddities, it does appear that the feds have an amazing ability to make a tense situation into a blood bath. While there's a long history of this transcending political party, it seems to me that the insanity of the "War on Drugs" has created a cowboy culture of corruption that makes these murderous raids more likely.

Were I a Governor with any sort of emergency, I'd do whatever to keep the feds away.

Meerkat
09-14-2006, 01:47 PM
Correct me if I have it wrong but wasn’t Ann Richards the governor who invited the army in to kill almost 100 people (including about 25% children) in order to serve a bench warrant on one of them?

Ann Richards…gone to whatever reward she deserves…In a word: no. It was a federal action - and what army?

Meerkat
09-14-2006, 01:50 PM
Some people may be suicidal, I'm not one.
No end of people who will happily make you suicidal on their behalf and in support of their beliefs. Erster be one of them. Recently, they're more generally known as neocons, but they've been around throughout history.

High C
09-14-2006, 02:54 PM
The jackboots are certainly in rare form on this ugly thread. :rolleyes:

Meerkat
09-14-2006, 02:57 PM
The jackboots are certainly in rare form on this ugly thread. :rolleyes:The jackboots are to protect us from Slidellian anklebiters! ;) :D

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 03:05 PM
I wonder how some of these FBI/ATF supporters would feel if they hit closer to home...nah...that'd never happen...

uncas
09-14-2006, 03:09 PM
Phillip...seems like question you could have answered at the same time you responded to one of the questions I posed to you.

around and around we go.

geeman
09-14-2006, 03:13 PM
Watched the FBI "chat" with a neighbor that had threatened the prez via E mail.Other then going through his house checking for threats of some sort,then putting him up against the wall for a couple of "publicity" pics, I thought they handled themselves very well.I didnt notice them burning his house down to get in.They as I had before them decided that he's just a harmless nut that cuts his grass and has very animated conversations with himself while doing so.They left him right where he was and went on to more important threats.The notion that govt agencies are gun happy jerks that cant wait to blow somebody,ANYBODY away is crap.

ljb5
09-14-2006, 03:14 PM
I wonder how some of these FBI/ATF supporters would feel if they hit closer to home...nah...that'd never happen...

Well, there's a false dichotomy if ever I saw one!

If you label me an FBI/ATF supporter, does that automatically make you a Branch Davidian supporter?

I freely admit that the feds made a series of mistakes throughout the entire process...

...oddly, you seem unable to ascribe any responsibility to the Davidians.

Meerkat
09-14-2006, 03:15 PM
...oddly, you seem unable to ascribe any responsibility to the Davidians.Cults are only responsible if they don purple robes and commit mass suicide - and then who can you blame? ;)