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TomF
09-13-2006, 01:53 PM
At Dawson College, a community college. Early reports of 4 dead, at least 16 wounded. Sounds like something akin to Columbine; one shooter was described as about 19, white male, multiple piercings and Mohawk haircut, black trenchcoat.

Reports of at least one assailant "neutralized," and potentially another who committed suicide.

Meerkat
09-13-2006, 02:10 PM
Remarkable - too bad it would be less remarkable in the US.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 02:12 PM
totally ugly. A repeat of the Concordia shootings. (same city, same MO). We will have to wonder at a possible connection with the new militarism of the federal govt.

TomF
09-13-2006, 02:19 PM
2 gunmen dead, police hunting a 3rd.

The incident immediately calls to mind one 20 years ago, where a single gunman again in Montreal shot a bunch (1 think 20) of female engineering students, while shouting anti-feminist slogans.

His gun had a 30 round magazine; it was argued that if he'd had to stop and reload, fewer women would have been killed. Some of Canada's gun control laws (e.g. restricting magazine size) date to that time.

Before folks start on the gun law thing, FWIW, Canadians can still own long guns which are not fully automatic, and with relatively small (I think up to 10?) magazines. No great difficulty either in purchasing or renewing an acquisition permit (about $60CDN), or a hunting license. As has been true forever, it's very difficult to legally purchase a handgun, or a fully automatic long gun.

As our current government is pro-gun, this tragic incident in Montreal is unlikely to change those laws.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 02:25 PM
I've check the Globe and Mail web site, the shootings were at Ecole Polytechnique, not Concordia.

Interesting the comments on the G&M website, the gun control debate has already started. Funny though, it's the pro-gun Westerners who jumped in right away, preemptively as it were.

htom
09-13-2006, 02:27 PM
Very sad demonstration of how "gun control law" does not work.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 02:32 PM
On the contrary, it's a demonstration that we live too close to the US.

Meerkat
09-13-2006, 02:35 PM
Yeah, well, the smell of Poutine drifting across the border has made Detriot what it is today! ;)

Nicholas Carey
09-13-2006, 02:38 PM
FWIW, Dawson College is the first anglophone CEGEP (Collège d'enseignement général et professionnel) in Quebec. Students receive 6 years of primary schooling, followed by 5 years of secondary schooling (one less than other Canadian provinces). University-track students then attend a CEGEP for two years prior to attending University, receiving a DEP (Diplôme d'études collégiales) in the process, whilst vocational students attend a CEGEP for 3 years.

I don't know that the the fact the school is the first anglophone CEGEP is significant, but it seems curious to me.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 02:39 PM
"As our current government is pro-gun, this tragic incident in Montreal is unlikely to change those laws."

However, it may slow down the rush by the Harper government Conservatives to water down the gun registry.

TomF
09-13-2006, 02:44 PM
Our wannabe action movie or video game heroes are our own dregs; it's not simple proximity to the US that gave these misanthropes their fantasies or their guns.

It maddens me no end that they're fed on shoot-em-up fantasies in the media etc. The black trenchcoat is a cliche costume, that's made its way from Terminator and Blade into too many real-life shootings. I WISH that the fantasy-making machines would stop glorifying this crap. It's very hard to sustain the idea that such shooters weren't somehow influenced, when they go about dressed like the post-modern grim reapers they see in the media.

No, the movie and video game and anime comic makers/sellers didn't put the guns in their hands - but they provided the material to feed and nurture the ideas in their heads.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 02:57 PM
A reasoned response, Tom. Difficult to make under the circumstances. But what's your thoughts on gun control? There seems to be a relentless barrage of guns washing across the border, especially in the Toronto area. Westerners don't seem to get to it, they resort to the usually bland talk about "getting the bad guys" etc., ignoring the fact that police force need actual tools such as gun control, not just political posturing about making laws tougher.

Meerkat
09-13-2006, 03:06 PM
Alas, Hollywood has become like any other big business: they make what sells and returns the greatest profit. The artists have gone and the bean counters are in charge. There seems to be little room for romance, comedy, intrigue and tales of courage any more.

erster
09-13-2006, 03:09 PM
On the contrary, it's a demonstration that we live too close to the US.

On the contrary, we all live in one big world in 2006. This internet and this forum is living proof. You can learn just about anything from the net, no matter where you live. Car bombs are much worse killers than firearms, in a blink of an eye. There are simular nutcases hellbent on killing, that have mass murdered more in Irag, today, than has been killed by highschool or college age kids in the United States this year from firearms. I don't know the real numbers, but if it was a real problem in the U.S. then we would be hearing screams about it in the news each day.

TomF
09-13-2006, 03:10 PM
I believe in very restricted access indeed to handguns, and full-auto or easily-converted-to full-auto weapons. That is, guns which have a primary purpose of shooting PEOPLE. As is true now, if someone wants to shoot a handgun at a range, fine - keep it locked up at the range.

I support long-gun ownership - so long as they're stored securely, transported securely, and yes - I support the long-gun registry.

As a law-abiding citizen, I have no problem at all with the government knowing if I own hunting rifles or shotguns, and agree with Canada's chiefs of police that police officers are safer if they know more about what they might expect to face, when responding to a domestic call.

I'd support much harsher penalties for those dealing in illegal guns, of whatever description. I'm very concerned at the number of illegal handguns now making their way into Canadian criminal hands - this is a change from 10 or 15 years ago, which is resulting in the violent altercations between thugs becoming more regularly lethal.

So I'm quite prepared to have my freedom to own purpose-designed anti-person weaponry restricted, to keep the pool of such weapons smaller. Until that pool reaches a critical mass - which it hasn't yet in Canada - such restrictions keep me and my family safer.

If I lived somewhere else, where such guns were much more widely dispersed, I would support the rights of others to purchase/own these legally for self defence. But I take that as an indication that civil society in such places has broken down to a degree that exceeds where I'd be comfortable living.

BrianW
09-13-2006, 03:18 PM
So taking a quick survey... we've blamed the gun, video games, and proximity to the US.

Something seems to be missing here.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 03:24 PM
"On the contrary, we all live in one big world in 2006. "

Unfortunately yes, however, it seems to be in the best interests of some governments to keep things as unstable as possible. There are millions of automatic weapons in circulation around the world, and they're constantly being used in civil wars, murders, insurrections, etc.

TomF
09-13-2006, 03:25 PM
Aw crap, Brian. Of course the shooters are responsible. That's a bloody given.

I wish we'd feed them fantasies of shagging sheep or chewing bubble gum rather than dressing in black trenchcoats and killing people. Personally, I wouldn't give a bloody rip if some deviant gum-chewers acted out their rebellion on a sheep farm.

Maybe if it weren't made out to be the height of cool rebellion, fewer might dress up in black and swagger off to kill somebody.

Christ. I've tried to be as sensitive to the pro-gun-types as possible, but we've got 4 dead, 12 in hospital, 8 of whom are in critical condition. 2 are in emergency surgery as we speak. These rebellious pieces of SH~T didn't take aim at young people with toasted marshmallows.

Will Wheeler
09-13-2006, 03:28 PM
"Something seems to be missing here."

It's true, we haven't blame George Bush for this.

BrianW
09-13-2006, 03:30 PM
Aw crap, Brian. Of course the shooters are responsible. That's a bloody given.

Thank you Tom.

BrianW
09-13-2006, 03:30 PM
"Something seems to be missing here."

It's true, we haven't blame George Bush for this.

Patience grasshopper. ;)

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:33 PM
outlaw all fully automatic black trench coats...the rest must have smaller pockets

Rick Starr
09-13-2006, 03:35 PM
Hell, I'd be for gun control if so many people didn't use it as a substitute for treating criminals appropriately.

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:40 PM
If we just try to understand them they won't want to commit crimes...

TomF
09-13-2006, 03:42 PM
If we just try to understand them they won't want to commit crimes...Who's saying that? :mad: Not me.

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:43 PM
Tom...it's PC

TomF
09-13-2006, 03:45 PM
Sorry Phillip. I'm very hot under the collar.

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Well I'm sorry and I certinly don't have any business making it worse...(I got the sh** hittin the fan at my house too)

Tristan
09-13-2006, 05:16 PM
Beyond all the stupid politics that have crept into this thread, the shooting was a terrible, tragic happening. Might want to keep that in mind guys and gals.

erster
09-13-2006, 05:21 PM
A true gun control advocate would support gun control and the enforcement of such laws upon the out of control persian gulf countries, instead of promoting stiff gun control on civilized nations and its citizens. Will it happen, beginning here on the forum? The people in the middleast live and die by guns in the hands of the wrong people, hell bent on daily killing for fun.

Memphis Mike
09-13-2006, 05:29 PM
I blame it on the Dubya.

Sorry Tom.:(

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 05:56 PM
Any more news yet?

Will Wheeler
09-14-2006, 07:56 AM
I heard this a.m. on the radio that there was only 1 killed, and 14 injured. Montreal police having learned from the Ecole Polytechnique shooting, intervened right away and killed the gunman, rather than putting up a security perimeter. Medical personnel were able to get to the wounded right away, and potentially saved some lives. So much for wimpy Canadianism.

TomF
09-14-2006, 08:27 AM
I heard this a.m. on the radio that there was only 1 killed, and 14 injured. ...Yup, thank God. CBC's now reporting only a single gunman, who killed 1 and injured another 19 before being killed himself by Quebec police. As Will notes, one "lesson learned" from the scenario 17 years ago when a similar shooter left 14 dead is that police were inside the building within 4 minutes and cornered the guy. That, and different practices getting emergency medical staff to the wounded ASAP likely saved lives.

A blog for the shooter has been discovered, on a goth website. He described himself as an "angel of Death," and posted pictures posing in a black trenchcoat (he called himself "Trench") with a Beretta semi-auto rifle and a rather interesting knife ... along with pithy comments like "Life is like a video game, you gotta die sometime."

Nope, no fantasy play there.

Phillip Allen
09-14-2006, 08:31 AM
"Life is like a video game, you gotta die sometime."

seems rather revealing to me

WX
09-14-2006, 08:43 AM
support gun control and the enforcement of such laws upon the out of control persian gulf countries, instead of promoting stiff gun control on civilized nations and its citizens.
Sorry Ester, but who went and invaded Iraq and failed to establish law and order until it was way too late, and thereby destablised an entire country.
A man can kill with virtually anything, but an automatic or semi automatic rifle makes it soo much easier.
This sensless act is just another obsenity in a long list of continuing mindless obsenities.
if you aren't a registered feral pig shooter you don't need to own it!

Leon m
09-14-2006, 08:49 AM
Just plain sad.:(

geeman
09-14-2006, 09:48 AM
We have a large group of the goth style kids in our town.Part of my job is dealing with these kids in our Mall.I handle them on a day to day basis,day in and day out.Sometimes I can reason with these kids by explainning that coming into the mall acting out,spooks the tourists,families that come here to spend their money(which puts food on these kids table).Sometimes I can get through,most times not.When I CANT get through I have to go further.Most times I"m forced to bann them from the property.In almost EVERY case after I check it out these kids come from families that have family problems.Either parents that are simply "too busy to keep up with what the kids are doing".or simply just dont care what the kid is up too as long as their not bothering the parent.I dont think my daily experiences are much different then other parts of the country or even other countries. A lot of these kids are NOT from low income families btw .The fact is ,we, as parents simply dont keep up with what the kids are up to,watching on tv,movies etc.We're too busy doing other things.I had to watch as police were forced to handcuff a 10 year old young girl SAT night.She was a hardcase that wound up trying to kick both cops as they tried to gently take her out of the building.All because she insisted on trying to steal a pack of cigs,,,,,,,

BrianW
09-14-2006, 03:57 PM
So much for wimpy Canadianism.

Sounds like the police did a really good job handling this situation.

geeman
09-14-2006, 04:37 PM
If you'll notice Donn,a lot of the Goth kids tend to be kids that are not popular,not in the "clicks" and feel like outcasts to start with.Mix those feelings in with a "community" thats easier to fit into ( buy the dark clothes be a member) you can understand how the lifestyle can appeal to them.There they feel like a wanted member of a group.Its sad that kids feel as they do about being in the "in" crowd but it can consume their lives.Working with these kids as I do and though I feel for them , its still my job to make the tourists feel welcome,the black costumes and the white painted faces,chains thing dont make them feel welcome.

brian.cunningham
09-14-2006, 04:57 PM
I was just in Montreal multiple times for training classes.
Truely sad :(


Sounds like something akin to Columbine

More than you think. He was an online gamer who actively participated in a role playing game that was based on Columbine
WTF!!! I hope that site gets shut down!
Since it was online, he could have resided anywhere in the world and still have access.

Peter Malcolm Jardine
09-14-2006, 05:25 PM
The shooter was a member of Vampirefreaks.com... he posted violent fantasies on his blog under the name of 'Trench'

So much for Steven Harper wanting to dilute the long gun registry and controls... I say go for it and lose the next election , which would be a delight.

Anastasia Desousa was the only student killed. 18 years old :(
but four are on life support.

BrianW
09-14-2006, 11:40 PM
So much for Steven Harper wanting to dilute the long gun registry and controls...

Exactly, as it's working so well. :confused:

Phillip Allen
09-15-2006, 04:22 AM
the point will be ignored Brian...puts me in mind of a story about a guy who wanted to prove that eating was only a habit and used a horse to prove it. had him down to one straw a day and if the horse hadn't got sick and died he'd a proved it!

geeman
09-15-2006, 04:25 AM
Make it about guns if you insist,but the real problem is a culture problem.

Phillip Allen
09-15-2006, 04:28 AM
Make it about guns if you insist,but the real problem is a culture problem.

actually, I agree

Phillip Allen
09-15-2006, 04:42 AM
This is a family story from when my great grandmother lived in the Indian Territory (Oklahoma in post Civil war times).

It seems a 16 year old boy had acquired a new rifle for some occasion, perhaps birthday or Christmas. While cruising the creek bank looking for something to try it out on he encountered an Indian girl who he promptly killed as an experiment. My point is that all the news is not about something new at all as this has always happened (at least I strongly suspect so). The media is more blood-thirsty (profit-thirsty) than we seem to know.

There was more to the story but I won’t bore you with it.

Phillip Allen
09-15-2006, 05:33 AM
it has bounced back and forth on that point

Milo Christensen
09-15-2006, 06:09 AM
One of the sites the shooter visited regularly was VampireFreaks.com. This site has 600K members and two other members have been charged in a triple murder in Medicine Hat and there's a member associated with the killer in a bludgeoning death in Toronto.

I now know I've been naive. I've discovered that there's a lot more weirdos out there posturing on wacko web sites than I care to think about.

Also reports of a connection to the shooter with a Columbine role playing site? Please tell me this isn't true, if it is, tell me it's been shut down, please.

GregW
09-15-2006, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Will Wheeler
Montreal police having learned from the Ecole Polytechnique shooting, intervened right away and killed the gunman..
The autoposy reveals that the gunman shot himself. However it should be noted that the body had two bullet wounds. One to the arm, a police bullet, and one the head, the suicide bullet. One would presume that the suicide was prompted by fact that the killer knew he was injured and had no way out.

I believe in the past what the police would have normally done, is secure the area, get as many people out as posible and wait for the SWAT team to show up. In this situation the police did all of the above, however they didn't wait for the SWAT team but went after the killer right away, potential saving lives.

GregW
09-15-2006, 06:46 AM
Talking about gun contol in Canada vs USA is a waste of time.
The history of gun ownership is different, culture is different, overall crime rates are different, homicide rates are different etc. To each his own.

TomF
09-15-2006, 07:21 AM
Let's not elide the gun registry question with this issue, please. With the greatest respect, the long-gun registry is only secondarily designed to prevent nutcases like this guy from sauntering into public places and killing folks. Truly, despite the noise which will be raised/is being raised, nobody really thinks that such things can be 100% prevented through registering firearms.

The long-gun registry has been regularly endorsed by Canada's chiefs of police association because those chiefs believe that it keeps their officers safer. When responding to a domestic dispute call, police OF COURSE act as if weapons may be present - but the Chiefs believe that their officers are that much safer if they KNOW that the house contains firearms.

Please recall that in Canada at least, a woman is far more likely to be shot by her husband than by a gangster, or a VampireFreaks.com wacko. The registry is meant to address that most common risk, and does it well enough that the police don't want it scrapped.

Under Canada's gun laws, with the least intrusive kind of acquisition permit I can still own hunting rifles, shotguns, semi-auto military surplus rifles, etc. If I want a handgun for target shooting, I can get one providing that a more stringent background and character check shows OK. If I want to collect full-auto guns, aside from some specific ones (e.g. AK-47s, 50 Calibres etc.) I can do that too, with the highest clearance type of permit.

Those prohibitions stem from Canada's gun culture - which is focused on our history of hunting and trapping. Nobody except elephant ivory poachers select full-auto assault rifles for their hunting weapons of choice ... and nobody here has put such a firearm even as their best choice for home protection. Pride of place there has always gone to pump or semi-auto shotguns ... which I can own under Canada's least stringent permit now.

I've no problem with the police having my car's make/model/serial # kept in a registry; I've no more problem with a similar collection of info being kept about any firearm I may choose to own. The car's more likely to kill someone anyhow.

If gun control had any play in this tragedy at all, it might possibly have prevented this guy from toting a Thompson 50 calibre instead, or a full-auto Kalashnikov. Either of which would quite possibly have killed more students.

It's worth remembering that laws which permit handgun carrying for self defence don't prevent such tragedies either. No student in Columbine pulled a Glock from her purse to take down the shooters, saving her own and other students' lives. Nor did any armed teachers or administrators do the same.

uncas
09-15-2006, 07:27 AM
TomF
It seems that the guns used were registered to the shooter ( nut case ).
Perhaps the background checks need to be revamped and this is not having any ideas what type of background check is being used in Canada ( or the US for that matter. I don't own a gun )

Now, I did have my eye on one of my father's Purdys he bought in the 1920's but...my sister, who hunts, got to them first. Oh well.

GregW
09-15-2006, 07:28 AM
IIRC, crime rates in Canada are higher than in the US.

I don't know if they are or not, maybe they are.

As for homicides rates:
Montreal in 2005 was 1.3 per 100,000
Toronto in 2005 was 2.0 per 100,000
Obviously not all homicides are gun related, however I think they compare favorably with USA cities of similar size.

TomF
09-15-2006, 07:37 AM
A criminal record check is the basic one for the least onerous type of permit. IIRC, the sticking point is violent crime. Each of the guns this wacko owned fall into the least restricted category - long guns, with semi-auto or slower rates of fire. Small ammunition clip (I think 10 rounds or less) The argument's always been that this is the most rapid rate of fire needed for hunting purposes. Full-auto is for anti-personnel, not anti-wild game.

Those who critique Canada's "draconian" gun laws which "prevent collectors from fulfilling their wants" should take note.

And unfortunately, the gun registry worked just as it should. His criminal record presented no more obvious risk than I would - and so his privilege to own a firearm was no more restricted than mine. Were he to have had a flaming row with his father requiring the police to show up at the house, the police would have known that weapons were present, and could potentially be in play.

That's it.

Canada's gun laws try to balance freedoms too - but do so from a perspective borne out of hunting/trapping culture, rather than a civilian militia and hunting/trapping culture.

htom
09-15-2006, 07:42 AM
Teachers in Colorado were forbidden by law -- even if they had concealed carry permits -- to carry firearms in school. Several teachers in the United States have ended shootings by displaying or firing sidearms (one, in fact, ran to his car, armed himself, and ran back to the fray; the student surrendered without the teacher firing.)

TomF
09-15-2006, 07:46 AM
I presume then that Colorado's changed its laws? Or did the legislators and voters determine that it was perhaps safer, on-balance, to keep the prohibition?

Milo Christensen
09-15-2006, 07:51 AM
IIRC, crime rates in Canada are higher than in the US.

The nice thing about trolling is that the fish sets the hook when it strikes the bait. Donn already knew that his statement is false.

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 07:58 AM
Actually, this case indicates that Canada's gun laws aren't draconian enough. The weapons used in this shooting were legally registered, but were semi-automatics which should be banned and would have been under a proposal by the former government.

PS According to CBC radio this a.m., police shot the man in the arm. He then killed himself.

PPS In aggregate murder rates are at least half of those in the US.

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 08:15 AM
Exactly.

Milo Christensen
09-15-2006, 08:17 AM
Ahhh, it's catch and release.

Milo Christensen
09-15-2006, 08:28 AM
Donn held on to the fish until it was dying before disdainfully releasing it. I should have known he couldn't be so humane.

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 08:35 AM
Well, like they say in the law, never ask a question to which you don't know the answer.

TomF
09-15-2006, 08:36 AM
Yes. We've got problems.

The problems tend to be concentrated within the Aboriginal community (9 times more likely to die from suicide, 4 times more likely to be in prison etc.) than the population at large. Gun death rates per 100,000 are higher in rural areas than urban areas ... coincidentally, rural residents are more likely to own guns. Urban gun deaths are concentrated in gang-on-gang violence (as in Toronto, Montreal), with the occasional bystanders killed (e.g. last January in Toronto). It has tended to focus within disenfranchised immigrant youth populations, and (even more) on the drug trade.

The guns used in these crimes tend to be unregistered handguns - which are apparently most often smuggled across the border from the US.

And no, it's not the US' fault that they're supplying illegal guns to Canadian thugs - the US suppliers are responding to Canadian market demand. Rather like illegal migrant workers crossing your southern border. Though I think it would be ineffective, perhaps you think we should build a wall to keep the illegals out?

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 08:37 AM
Actually Donn, the same source you quoted shows crimes rates of all types (violent and property) on a steady decline since 1991.

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 08:50 AM
Except for an increase in 2003, the crime rate has generally been falling since 1991 when it peaked. Police reported about 2.6 million offences in 2004, resulting in a crime rate that was 12% lower than a decade ago.
Last year's decline was driven largely by a 5% decrease in Ontario, whose crime rate was the lowest in the country for the second year in a row. Most of this decline was due to large decreases in reported crime in the census metropolitan areas (CMAs) of Toronto, Hamilton, Ottawa and St. Catharines–Niagara.
Prince Edward Island was the only other province to report a large decline in crime. Saskatchewan's crime rate, which experienced the largest increase of any province over the past decade, fell slightly in 2004. New Brunswick reported the largest increase, up 3%.
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050721/c050721d.gif

Milo Christensen
09-15-2006, 08:55 AM
So, Donn, how many times you gonna catch the same fish? Zee mastair piscatore, he eez at work.

GregW
09-15-2006, 09:43 AM
Here is a quick comparison homicide rates per 100,000

2.9--Vancouver
3.7--Winnipeg
4.3--Edmonton
1.3--Montréal
2.4--Calgary
1.3--Ottawa (http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060720/d060720b.htm#tab5ftnote2)
1.6--Hamilton
2--Toronto
0.7--Québec


5.7 -- Seattle
11.2 -- San Francisco
12.5 -- Baltimore County
13.4 -- Los Angeles
14.4 -- Denver
17.7 -- Savannah
17.9 -- Miami
20.3 -- Detroit
20.6 -- Oakland
25.5 -- New Orleans MSA
26.1 -- Atlanta
33.7 -- St. Louis
35.8 -- Washington, D.C.
43.4 -- Baltimore City
47.3 -- Richmond, Va.
56.0 -- New Orleans city
Source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports (http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offenses_reported/offense_tabulations/table_06.html)

Canadian rates are for 2005, USA rates for 2004.

Will Wheeler
09-15-2006, 09:50 AM
So urban crime rates are higher in the US by a factor of 5x to 10x. The funny thing is that murder rates in Canada are actually much higher in rural areas and territories (Yukon, Nunavut), which where gun ownership is much higher.

TomF
09-15-2006, 10:02 AM
Interesting stats.

The Edmonton rates reflect transient workers feeding the oil rig industry (you'd see worse for Ft. McMurray) - a lot of associated social ills when you're attracting a kazillion people/month and have nowhere for them to live. To a degree, it also reflects the larger Aboriginal population in the area. It's got a smaller echo in Calgary - where more of the work is for office workers than roughnecks.

It's the quite large Aboriginal component fuelling Winnipeg's rates too - along with a thriving drug trade in the city's north end. Vancouver's higher because of drug trade issues, and conflict between primarily ethnic gangs (Asian and South Asian).

I'd have expected Toronto's rate to be higher, but I guess that the overall population is large enough to absorb 78 murders and still keep things pretty safe.

Anyone able to help decode the varying rates in US cities?

Keith Wilson
09-15-2006, 10:13 AM
Hey, Minneapolis-St. Paul beats both Edmonton and Winnipeg, at 3.0! Although things have gotten worse just recently - a rash of drug/gang shootings on the north side. Interesting statistics.

Wait a minute, there's something funny here - - It appears that the Canadian figures are for the entire metropolitan area, and most of the US ones are only the city itself. San Francisco's murder rate for the whole area is 6.8, Detroit is 10.0, and Richmond 12.6 (from the FBI web page referenced) - still a lot worse than the Canadian figures, but not nearly as bad as the first set of figures makes it appear.

A few more - Boston 4.5, New York 5.8, Seattle 3.5 . . .

BrianW
09-15-2006, 03:13 PM
So once again the discussion has fallen towards comparing Canada to the US. I must admit, that even PMJ did not do that in his post. ;)

I should think that Canadians would be more interested in comparing the murder rates before, and then after the Canadian gun registration laws went into effect.

I'm running on battery power at the airport, so I don't have the time to Google that data.

But I thinks it's clearly a better comparison for Canadians to consider.

Keith Wilson
09-15-2006, 03:26 PM
Possibly, but recent immigrants , not having much cash, tend to first settle in low-rent neighborhoods, and - guess what? One of the reasons they're low-rent is crime. Most move to more pleasant surroundings as fast as they can. Hard to separate cause and effect here.

Two clear patterns in the US: Crime rates, particularly murder rates, are very significantly higher in the south. I don't know why. Crime rates also tend to be highest in cities (and portions of cities) that have long-term, large, poor, and squalid African-American ghettos, or to a lesser extent their Hispanic equivalents.

Paul Pless
09-15-2006, 03:32 PM
Two clear patterns in the US: Crime rates, particularly murder rates, are very significantly higher in the south.

really??? excepting New Orleans you couldn't tell it from this data


5.7 -- Seattle
11.2 -- San Francisco
12.5 -- Baltimore County
13.4 -- Los Angeles
14.4 -- Denver
17.7 -- Savannah
17.9 -- Miami
20.3 -- Detroit
20.6 -- Oakland
25.5 -- New Orleans MSA
26.1 -- Atlanta
33.7 -- St. Louis
35.8 -- Washington, D.C.
43.4 -- Baltimore City
47.3 -- Richmond, Va.
56.0 -- New Orleans city

Phillip Allen
09-15-2006, 03:39 PM
See if you can find the rates for Stanley, New Mexico...makes more sense to me

Keith Wilson
09-15-2006, 03:58 PM
Paul, those are murder rates within the city limits of various large cities, and as such are not very helpful in comparing regions. Look here:
http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/summary/crime_map/index.html

Here's a fairly complete table showing state ranking by murder rates with the data from the past 10 years. The only southern state not in the top half is Virginia. http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=12&did=169#MRord (The table is from an anti-death penalty site, but the data is from the FBI.) Again, I have no idea why this is.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/images/content_images/2.16.gif