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John Gearing
09-11-2006, 10:52 PM
Just got back from a few days in Las Vegas with SWMBO and family. Had a very mediocre meal at Emeril's steakhouse, "Delmonico", in the Venetian, but a superb meal at "SW" in the Wynn just up the strip. Highly recommend dinner at SW if you want to forget you are in Vegas. The view is of a conifer covered hillside, a very wide waterfall, and a good sized pond in between the terrace and the waterfall. If you go for dinner, stick around for the light show, which starts at 8pm.

As for machine guns, we had a great time blazing away with some classic sub guns at a joint called appropriately enough, The Gun Store. I eschewed the modern guns in favor of a Thompson. Would've gone with the Schmeisser (sp?) MP-40 but it was in the shop. I figure there are probably a million people alive who've shot an M-16 or Ak or Uzu, but how many can say they've shot the iconic German subgun from WW2 or the weapon that defines the gangster era? The Tommy was, literally, a blast to shoot. It's heaviest over the pistol grip, so it has a tendency for the muzzle to rise up and to the right. Remember your downward pressure on the forend grip and you'll be okay. Kicked more than I thought it would. You sort of keep your shoulders square to it and lean into the thing. I think with practice I could get pretty good with it. As it was it played hell with the head and chest of an FBI silhouette target.

SWMO obeyed was overjoyed to finally get to shoot an Uzi. She had a full size photo target of Osama to play with and riddled him but good. I didn't get to play with the Uzi, but she reported it being quite easy to handle and the recoil didn't bother her much. No red mark on her shoulder from the buttstock.

SWMO's son was the one who got the real surprise. He's sort of fascinated with the USMC at the moment, so he went with a full auto version of the M-16. As we were rolling up to the shop he was expressing at full cry his inability to understand why anyone would want to own a handgun when rifles and shotguns were so much "better" in terms of accuracy and power. Well, I saw his target after he'd ripped through 60 rds of 5.56 and he was all over the place. The bullet holes were distributed across Mr. Bin Laden in a very egalitarian fashion....that is to say, no two were very close together. "Boy," he said later, "that thing was a lot harder to control than I'd thought it would be."

All agreed that the Tommy's .45 slugs make some big holes. I think I've also proven to myself at least that Geraldo Rivera was full of horse huckey when he asserted during his ill-starred "Capone's Hidden Vaults" program some years back, that the Thompson had so little kick that he could easily "write" his name in bullet holes on a wall. Nope. Not gonna happen, that, without a fair amount of practice.

So if you find yourself in Vegas with firearms on your mind, do remember that there are shops there that can legally rent you a nice subgun and a few mags full of ammo. Personally I'd rather spend it there than at a gambling table.

Bob Cleek
09-12-2006, 12:17 AM
John, next time around, try holding the Thompson with your right hand and don't pull it into your shoulder. Just let the forestock or forward grip (on a Model 21) rest in your palm. That will prevent her from climbing. Fire three round bursts and you should be able to cover them with your hand at 25 yards.

epoxyboy
09-12-2006, 02:41 AM
Damn, that sounds like fun! The closest I came to a real machine gun was a blast with a 9mm SMG (think of a slightly improved WWII British Sten gun) when I was in the airforce. The action is recoil driven, and soaks up most of the jolt - to be honest my garden hose has more kick than that thing. I too was suprised at how hard it was to hit the target with any accuracy, especialy shooting from the hip.
Fortunately that day there were several thousand rounds of life expired 9mm ammo to dispose of heh heh heh.
They never let us run the 7.62mm FN SLR's on full auto :-( which was always a bit of a disappointment - rumour had it that a match stick jammed in the right part of the action would do the job, but nobody ever had the balls to upset the RSO proving it!

Pete

WX
09-12-2006, 03:29 AM
The Tommy Gun was very popular with the Australians in new Guinea, particularly with the drum mag, even though it was quite heavy to lug around.

formerlyknownasprince
09-12-2006, 05:16 AM
I thought it was the Owen gun that was popular in PNG - you could drop it in the mud, pick it up and fire it - whereas the Thompson would jam if it saw a speck of dust.

Then of course, there was the Gatenby Gun.

paladin
09-12-2006, 05:50 AM
I found the "tommy gun and the grease gun" boring. The cyclic rate is so slow that you can tap the trigger for single shot bursts and watch the round travel downrange. The Air Force SMG may very well have been the Smith and Wesson built under license from sweden...the "famous" Gustav M-45, or Swedish "K".....nice weapons. With a little adjustment you can vary the cyclic rate from 900rpm to about 1200 rpm.....
If you wanna play with something different, operate an M-10 or the 9mm model.....but the little M11 will really throw lead out (.380 auto/9mmkurz). I have three that I am donating to a local "Swat" team along with some other hardware....also the calico, with a 50 or 100 rd cylinder mag....the one Swarzenegger used in "total Recall"...

cs
09-12-2006, 06:41 AM
I would like a chance to shoot a Thomspson. So far my favorite machine gun is the M-60 (7.62 mm).

I've never seen a fully auto gun that didn't try to move up and to the right. It's the nature of the rifling.

Chad

formerlyknownasprince
09-12-2006, 07:58 AM
I shot a Bren gun when I was in the cadets at school - got into trouble for firing a 28 shot burst (full mag) - you were only s'posed to fire bursts of 3. Bagged a gum tree (which I was aiming for) - about 30' tall growing between the front and rear butts - chopped it nicely. Some of the other kids shot up the red range flag - I hate to think where some of their bullets were going.

Bob Cleek
09-12-2006, 02:27 PM
I'd agree with Paladin, particularly because the main value of an automatic is the amount of lead you can throw at a target in the shortest time, accuracy being second. The lighter ammo is also easier to lug and you can carry more of it in the field.

The Thompson is a relic and historical curiosity these days, but a beautifully made piece, particularly if you are talking about one of the original pre-war Auto Ordinance models. With a properly mounted Cutts compensator, it should not climb appreciably if fired correctly. You certainly can see a .45 slug going downrange, since they travel slowly (750 fps, IIRC). However, since they don't break the sound barrier, there is no "crack" if firing with a noise suppressor. While not "state of the art" these days, a .45 FMJ still hits will all the subtlety of a brick through a plate glass window.

I had the pleasure in the mid-70's when working for the State of California to test and evaluate every full auto SMG available at that time. We were using pre-war Thompson's, but some bureaucrat in Sacramento thought the state ought to standardize their issue weaponry. I agree with Paladin that the .45 ACP M-10 with the factory silencer is pretty neat. Makes about as much noise as an electric typewriter. In 9 mm, though, you get the crack, even with the silencer, since the bullet breaks the barrier out in front of the muzzle.

So, after all was said and done, what did we end up with? The Ruger .223 Remington Mini 14, in semi-auto, selector model, semi and full auto, and later the new model with the semi, full auto, and three round burst selector switch. Why? Well, first and foremost, quality and dependability. It was the most "idiot proof." Many of the other options required a higher level of mechanical competence (clearing jams, etc) by the operator and we wanted to minimize dependence on the operator's competence. The .223 round was cheap and available. And we got a good deal on a lot of mil-spec weapons that were overruns from an order produced for the French Foreign Legion. Unfortunately, the visual deterrence and "command presence" of a Mini 14 doesn't come close to that of the Thompson!

troutman
09-12-2006, 03:23 PM
I didn't know the Tommy gun had a bad rap for jamming when a little dirty. Our original M-16's in 1966 were made for sterile conditions like if you had a firefight in an operating room. Why the grunts all had a toothbrush in the pocket of their jungle fatigues. It was a lot lighter then the M-14 for humping the boonies.

cs
09-12-2006, 03:37 PM
Bob you are correct. Automatic fire is about keeping there heads down to allow manauver elements to manauver. The way to do that is to throw the lead to it.

With that said I still don't like the SAW over the M-60 even though it has a higher rate of fire.

Chad

BrianW
09-12-2006, 03:56 PM
I didn't know the Tommy gun had a bad rap for jamming when a little dirty. Our original M-16's in 1966 were made for sterile conditions like if you had a firefight in an operating room. Why the grunts all had a toothbrush in the pocket of their jungle fatigues. It was a lot lighter then the M-14 for humping the boonies.

Having not been there (as I was still in diapers) I won't claim any expertise. But I have read in more that one publication that the M16 was not bad originally, but when they switched brands of gunpowder in the 5.56mm ammo they started to jamb more frequently.

dmede
09-12-2006, 04:06 PM
Having not been there (as I was still in diapers) I won't claim any expertise. But I have read in more that one publication that the M16 was not bad originally, but when they switched brands of gunpowder in the 5.56mm ammo they started to jamb more frequently.

I think they also opted to not chrome the barrel on the early production guns, where as the prototype was designed with a chromed barrel. This led to corrosion and jambs. The gun was eventually updated, but not until it had recived a bad rep in the field. Something like that, saw it on the History of Guns I think.

paladin
09-12-2006, 05:37 PM
Bob..
Fiochi makes some nice 9mm for the Ingram (and other such weapons) that has a heavier bullet and slightly lighter powder load for suppressed weapons.....the other trick, a spare barrel for the Browning, inside thread for the suppressor, and hand feed 380 autos....
Fiochi also makes subsonic .22 long rifle loads for suppressed woodsman/high standard/ruger #1's......

Phillip Allen
09-12-2006, 06:01 PM
Having never fired a full automatic and no particular interest in doing so I find the apparent excitement stated above odd. I have always been interested in firing one shot for effect where possible...

I'm sure I'd finding playing with various full-autos interesting for a bit but would return to firing one round and watching for effect after satisfying simple curiosity.

paladin
09-12-2006, 06:38 PM
my weapon of choice, military wise, was a bull barrel M-77 Ruger in 7mm Remington magnum......when running like hell and homeward bound it was the swedish K........when otherwise playing it was the Browning for really nasty situations amd the high standard when I wanted to be left alone......but when at the base, all the other toys were fun because Uncle was paying for the ammo....

Ed Harrow
09-12-2006, 08:43 PM
http://www.firefaster.com/index.html

If you already own a Ruger 10/22 you're partway there.

WX
09-12-2006, 09:53 PM
Ian , the owen was a good gun and you are correct about it's tolerance to mud and dirt. I have read though that because the mag was on top it was a cause for concern during ambushes...it was visible. Also the safety had a problem in that if you dropped it on it's butt, it could and did sometimes go off, taking out it's owner.
it saw service up to and including the Vietnam War.
The Thompson was liked because of it's heavy calibre, it could chop through the base of a palm tree and get anyone hiding behind it...the 303 had the same ability. The Japanese rifle of the time however was a much lighter calibre and couldn't.
The Britsh Sten was good but it could take your finger off if you weren't careful.

John Gearing
09-12-2006, 10:34 PM
Ah Phillip, I have shot thousands of rounds one at a time, and loved every minute of it. But I've also wondered what it was like during the Roaring Twenties and earlier when guns like the Thompson were available to the public and were made famous by gangsters and G-men. I recall seeing an old magazine ad pitching the Thompson (buttstock removed) to ranchers and other folks who lived out in the boonies. I chose the Tommy for the chance to live some history. For me, t'was a fine experience . Loved it.

Bob, when I get back out there I'll try your technique. As I recall, this particular example didn't have a Cutts compensator on it.

I was kind of hoping they would have a Sterling, as that's been another one I've always wanted to try. Believe the SAS was still using them in the Falklands and may still employ them.

What they did have, besides the ones I mentioned above, were: MP-5, 9mm M-16 shorty, Grease gun M3A1, Stemple "K", Madsen M50, M249 Minimi, Sten Mk II, AK in .223.

Too bad no Ingrams on the list. I recall from my Georgia days that the special unit of the GBI used supressed .45 Ingrams and that on one occasion where they got in a gunfight with a drug dealer alongside a thruway the Ingrams were so quiet that the drivers speeding my never knew what was going on over in the breakdown lane. Whatever happened to old Mitch Werbell and Cobray anyway?

formerlyknownasprince
09-12-2006, 11:03 PM
Ian , the owen was a good gun and you are correct about it's tolerance to mud and dirt. I have read though that because the mag was on top it was a cause for concern during ambushes...it was visible. Also the safety had a problem in that if you dropped it on it's butt, it could and did sometimes go off, taking out it's owner.

I read a review from Machinegun News - 1995 (seriously) that rated the Owen gun as the best submachinegun of WWII - you are right about the dropping comment, but I believe this was fixed early on. As for the mag issue - the reviewer tested it upside down!!! ... and it was fine. It was designed to be fired from the hip anyhow.

The guys in Vietnam were less enthusiastic - they were still using WWII ammo which appeared to have lost a bit of punch.

Ian

epoxyboy
09-13-2006, 12:30 AM
Having not been there (as I was still in diapers) I won't claim any expertise. But I have read in more that one publication that the M16 was not bad originally, but when they switched brands of gunpowder in the 5.56mm ammo they started to jamb more frequently.

If you google something like "M16 problems" you can find the entire transcript into the US Govt inquiry on the subject - several drillion pages of fairly dry reading. I skimmed through it out of curiosity once - must get a life!!!

From memory, most of it was related to the formulation of the "gunpowder" and the shape of the individual grains affecting the chamber pressure (higher than designed for I think) which makde it difficult to extract spent cartridges.
"Poor" cleaning in the field was cleared as a cause.

Pete

pipefitter
09-13-2006, 02:11 AM
The most fun gun that seemed would intimidate anyone and what they were hiding behind is the m1 garand in 30-06. No,not a machine gun but so what.Effective range of over 400 yds?I got to empty a couple of clips that pretty much ruined what we were shooting at in short order. I hit everything I aimed at. I would love to have one.

paladin
09-13-2006, 04:40 AM
Mitch Werbel had a heart attack.....then his son ran the joint for a while and made a mess of things, then Wayne Daniels took over and really made the business boom, so well in fact, that they were making more weapons than were on the books, and it sorta upset the BATF....:D....

and think about the M1 Garand.....limited range....
Take a 7mm and set it up on a 1000 yard range.....
downrange 300 yds away, in the same direction, place an M1 garand....
Fire the 7mm....as the bulled passes the Garand, fire the Garand... the 7mm energy and velocity will still be greater than the round from the Garand at the muzzle....

Nicholas Carey
09-13-2006, 01:52 PM
I got to play with a MAC-10 in 45 ACP and a BAR (aka M1918A2) with a bipod mount one day (friend who deals in automatic and selective-fire weapons for a living).

The MAC-10 was fun, but you needed the silencer installed to have any control over it, even firing 3-4 round bursts. The silencer gave you enough length so you could hold the muzzle down.

The BAR on the other hand...spoke with a voice of authority. The weight, length and bipod made it pretty easy to control.

Evidently both Clyde Barrow of "Bonnie and Clyde" as well as Baby-Face Nelson preferred sawed off BARs (stolen from National Guard amories) to the stereotypical Thompson submachine gun. Much more effective than the Thompson, especially against vehicles.

paladin
09-13-2006, 02:18 PM
now, now,...no bad words against poor maligned "Baby Faced" Nelson.....according to my grandma he was a poor boy who disgraced his poor mama but was always good to everyone around home (before I was hatched).......They liked the BAR because of the penetration power of the round, and the cops couldn't hide behind the cars.....oops.....mixed nelson up with Charles Floyd.......it wuz Charlie(Pretty Boy) Floyd that lived near the grandparents....

Paul Pless
09-13-2006, 02:21 PM
27 posts thus far, and not a single one by a liberal left wing pinko taking an antigun position.:eek:

Tommy guns are a lot of fun, until you have to reload them...

paladin
09-13-2006, 02:24 PM
yeah...look at the price of ammo......

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:42 PM
If you guys hadn't been talking about machine guns no one would have been shot in Canada

RJMerrill
09-13-2006, 03:57 PM
I'm not a huge automatic fan, I prefer the single action revolvers and lever guns, but all this talk made me remember the one "machine gun" that I have fired. A replica gatling gun belching out 45 caliber bullets as fast as you can crank. Fun stuff, black powder smoke everywhere, those watermelons didn't stand a chance.

Phillip Allen
09-13-2006, 03:58 PM
I'm not a huge automatic fan, I prefer the single action revolvers and lever guns, but all this talk made me remember the one "machine gun" that I have fired. A replica gatling gun belching out 45 caliber bullets as fast as you can crank. Fun stuff, black powder smoke everywhere, those watermelons didn't stand a chance.

There's one I might find interesting...till time to clean it

paladin
09-13-2006, 03:59 PM
and if'n we were talking about Hawken rifles they would have been shot by black powder guns......:D

paladin
09-13-2006, 04:01 PM
The Gatling gun isn't a machine gun, technically......now if ya wanna build one, 1/3 size, chambered to the .22 long rifle, I know a guy who has the full set of mechanical drawings and one about 2/3rds built....:D

Nicholas Carey
09-13-2006, 06:11 PM
From the Asheville (NC) Citizen-Times (http://%22http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200660913003%27) (Voice of the Mountains) comes this lovely tale:
Unapproved Uzi raffle shut down
Youth sports league quickly stops ticket sales

by Adam Behsudi, ABEHSUDI@CITIZEN-TIMES.COM
published September 13, 2006 12:26 am

WEAVERVILLE — A Buncombe County youth sports association shut down a raffle offering an Uzi submachine gun as the prize, the league’s commissioner said Tuesday.

North Buncombe Youth Athletic Association President Gary Chandler said the organization never approved the raffle, and he put an end to it after parents complained tickets were being sold from a concession stand.

"It was a parent who was doing soliciting out in the community," Chandler said. "This individual or parent did not think it through."

Parent Mark Hamilton said he did a double take after spotting a flier for the raffle over the weekend.

"I appreciate any kind of donation, but that’s a little ridiculous," said Hamilton, who has two daughters in the North Buncombe Youth Athletic Association cheerleading program. "Ninety percent of the people I talked to, they thought it was a joke."

He said tickets were being sold Saturday during football practice at North Buncombe Park.

Chandler said he did not know who came up with the idea. Fundraising must get the athletic association board’s approval.

It is illegal to possess a machine gun in North Carolina, with some exemptions.

The organization has sports programs in football, cheerleading, baseball, softball and basketball for youths between the ages of 6 and 13.

formerlyknownasprince
09-13-2006, 06:24 PM
I went through a State forensics lab a few years back - one thing that came up while in the range area was that the largest machine gun calibre that they had tested, which was a .50 I don't recall the case specifics - but it must have been a doozy of an argument to settle it with something like that! There is still 20 years of that job confidentiality agreement to run, but if I can't remember the details, how the hell can I breach it!

paladin
09-13-2006, 09:46 PM
some of my stuff will be unpacked next week......slave labor...nephew coming from Okiehoma,,,,bringing my 1892 winchester saddlering carbine, and the 1894 (made in 1896) winchester in 45 long colt...we izz gonna go to quantico and bust some caps...gives me a chance for the range officer to inspect and sign off my Browning as being servicable for another year....and the 1861 Colt and my 1914 Colt......

Nanoose
09-13-2006, 09:56 PM
Just saw this thread, and I'm a little taken aback. Probably just that peace lovin Canadian thing, and my pacifistic side. I find myself singing, "O Canada..."!!

John Gearing
09-13-2006, 10:44 PM
Taken aback? For heaven's sake, why? If you haven't tried it, don't knock it! Submachine guns are FUN guns for target shooting. Or perhaps you are one of those poor lost souls, Nanoose, who has never shot even an air rifle. Will you agree that it is okay to shoot a rubber band at an empty soda can? If so, I can set you up with a full-auto rubber band gun that will sling about 10 bands/second. Try that and I think you'll enjoy it. Now scale up to a real submachine gun and scale up the fun factor by about 6 orders of magnitude. C'mon down out of the cold Canadian late summer--chip those icicles off your earlobes and sidle down into the empire known as the US of A and then point yourself towards Las Vegas. Just try it out. No one needs to know. Because what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

WX
09-13-2006, 11:31 PM
27 posts thus far, and not a single one by a liberal left wing pinko taking an antigun position.

I'm a strong believer in tight gun control, and always have been. I discuss weapons more from an historical viewpoint than the desire to actually own one.
I can not see how anyone can justify owning a submachine gun...or for that matter a high powered SLR such as an M16, AK47 etc.
However I don't have a problem with having a secured commercial weapons range where Joe Bloggs can go and fire off a few rounds...I'd do it myself if such a thing existed in this country. I've always wanted to fire a Bren and an MG42 (M3 I think it's called now).
Now this will have some of you spluttering in your coffee, I think private ownership of handguns should be totally illegal, except for sports shooting ie. Olympics...not as in blowing away Bambi's.

paladin
09-14-2006, 07:37 AM
I full agree.....shotguns are more civilized.....lessee.....a remington model 1100, add a magazine extender and a selective fire pin to intercept the sear, and you can load 9 each OO buck rounds of 3 inch magnums or 11 each 2 3/4 inch shells, go full auto or even semi, and in a matter of a couple of seconds send more lead downrange than a magazine of full auto 9mm's and have a helluva lot wider pattern to get more people...er...ah..rabbits or deer.....

WX
09-14-2006, 08:16 AM
:D Ah yes, I meant to add pump action shotguns to the list.
I do realise that it is not that hard to fabricate a sub machine gun, the Owen Gun was designed and built in a backyard engineering shop.

blacksmith
09-14-2006, 09:22 AM
I had a co-worker some years ago,a tough little B*****d,who fought his way through the European campaign in WW11 with a Thompson sub machine gun. He said his solution to the muzzle climb tendency was a rope tied around the muzzle with a loop at the other end large enough to put his foot in. He won multiple decorations and the nickname "Phosphorus Joe"for his technique in knocking out German pill boxes at Normandy.

formerlyknownasprince
09-14-2006, 09:46 AM
Mate - Bambi has no place in Australia - bloody feral animals.

BTW - there is at least one commercial range - at St Marys in Sydney - the Sporting Shooters Association have an indoor range - and I'm sure there are others. If you want to shoot up some paper next time you're in Sydney - give me a hoy - or if you know where there are any Bambi's up your way, I'd be happy to solve the local feral animal problem.