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George.
08-31-2006, 01:52 PM
Why? WHY?!? :mad:


UNITED NATIONS (CNN) -- A U.N. official has called it an "outrage" that Israel dropped cluster bombs in southern Lebanon.

"It is an outrage that we have 100,000 unexploded bombs" in southern Lebanon that will take a year or two to clear, said Jan Egeland, the U.N. Under-Secretary-General for Humanitarian Affairs.

"Every day people are killed and maimed," he added. "Civilians will die disproportionately" and more children than Hezbollah fighters will be killed, he charged.
...
Bomblets from American-made cluster bombs have been found in areas where Israeli forces battled Hezbollah guerrillas during the 34-day war that ended on August 14.
...
Saying that 90 percent of the cluster bombs that the Israel Defense Forces dropped on southern Lebanon fell in the last three days of the war, Egeland said, "We have to find out why," when Israel knew the conflict was coming to an end.


You know you are using excessive force and being callous about civilian casualties when even the WBush Administration thinks you overdid it:


Last week, the U.S. State Department announced it had begun an inquiry into the alleged Israeli use of American-made cluster bombs in southern Lebanon.

The inquiry will seek to determine whether Israel violated agreements with the United States that restrict when the weapons can be used.

The Reagan administration imposed a six-year ban on the sale of cluster ammunitions to Israel after a congressional investigation found Israel had misused such weapons during its 1982 invasion of Lebanon.


But don't worry. They only hate you because you are free - not because you sprinkle their land with booby traps for children.

geeman
08-31-2006, 01:53 PM
Dont you ever give it a rest George?

huisjen
08-31-2006, 02:09 PM
Meaning it's fine for the Israelis to kill at will, but not for the people who were there before European powers resettled European Jews in their midst to defend themselves from invasion?

And I agree, it has long been hard to have a reasoned discourse with you Mike.

Dan

LeeG
08-31-2006, 02:24 PM
Seems to me the purveyors of news have decided that Israel is vulnerable to critical coverage, but the US bringing democracy to Iraq isn't. The number of cluster munitions used to bring democracy to Iraq and get the terrists who brung us 9/11 is many, many, many times greater than what was used in Lebanon.

many.

The problem is that the next generation of self-destructing submunitions isn't in the front of the pipeline, gotta go through the old stuff first. With some searching you can find stories of US soldiers going into areas where there are unexploded submunitions all over an urban area but it doesn't have significant news value.

many times greater. But when you're dealing with the threat of WMD and TERRISTS some collateral damage is expected.

geeman
08-31-2006, 02:41 PM
I second that motion LOL

John of Phoenix
08-31-2006, 02:41 PM
That Lebanon fiasco has neocon written all over it - Shock and Awe on the civilians, ****ty intel, and an unfinished mission. Olmert may have pulled the trigger, but rummy and dick were holding his hand.

Cluster bomb, cluster F#<K - same difference. Hearts and minds.

Paul Pless
08-31-2006, 02:43 PM
Why? WHY?!? :mad:



But don't worry. They only hate you because you are free - not because you sprinkle their land with booby traps for children.

I'm assuming your only asking this rhetorically, 'cause as far as I know of the 12,000 or so forum members I've yet to see one with a location of Israel in their profile.

George.
08-31-2006, 02:50 PM
Dan, the board has become an extention of hate America sites.



Sure, Mike. Repeat after me:

Israel's actions = Israel = The Jewish people. Those who disagree are Nazi anti-semites.

The Bush administration = America = freedom and democracy, motherhood and apple pie. Those who disagree are America-hating apologists for terrorism.




Since the numbers are overwhelming hate America...


Bull. There were two or three bilge polls during the height of the latest Lebanon action. Those who thought Israel was justified were equal or greater in number to those who thought its reponse was disproportionate.

And in the recent McCain vs. Hillary poll, McCain won. Presumably, the "America-haters" would be Hillary supporters, from an oyster's point of view... ;)




... the value of these threads....


...is to perhaps show some Americans - not ideologically blinded partisan ones, but moderates, "swing voters," if you like - that there is more to the current mess than "they hate us because we are free."

LeeG
08-31-2006, 02:53 PM
you make cool boats Oyster. I don't hate America. Bullets and bombs don't bring democracy or get the terrists that brung us 9/11.

We don't have a few hundred thousand unexploded bomblets spread around the continental US,,so it must not exist,,right?

LeeG
08-31-2006, 02:55 PM
but what happens when there aren't wmd and the terrists that brung us 9/11?

there's uxo

huisjen
08-31-2006, 02:55 PM
Mike, I won't even dignify your posts with answers when they're so full of syntax errors that I can't even make out your point.

Have you seen a shrink about that paranoia (everyone - even my fellow countrymen - hates my country) issue?

Dan

ishmael
08-31-2006, 02:56 PM
I'm afraid, very afraid, that benighted region is not going to come to rest until the madness of their prophecies is lived out. When they finally exaust themselves, the twelfth Immam will come and shake her head. So sad, but there seems no steering it.

"Whatever remains unconscious is lived out as fate."

C.G. Jung

LeeG
08-31-2006, 03:26 PM
Jack, you forget that the chickenhawks are exhausting our resources,,they is us. Their madness is ours. Bring 'em on!

Nicholas Carey
08-31-2006, 03:27 PM
That Lebanon fiasco has neocon written all over it - Shock and Awe on the civilians, ****ty intel, and an unfinished mission. Olmert may have pulled the trigger, but rummy and dick were holding his hand.Did you read the 21 August issue of The New Yorker. Good piece by Seymour Hersh on the advance knowledge, complicity, if not actual involvement, of the Cheney Gang in Israel's recent adventure in Lebanon. It was looked at as a trial run for the tactics they intend to use in the our upcoming Iran project.

Nicholas Carey
08-31-2006, 03:40 PM
Seems to me the purveyors of news have decided that Israel is vulnerable to critical coverage, but the US bringing democracy to Iraq isn't. The number of cluster munitions used to bring democracy to Iraq and get the terrists who brung us 9/11 is many, many, many times greater than what was used in Lebanon.The problem is that we supply Israel's F-16 and Abrams tanks, as well as a lot of their munitions. All of them come with strings attached that they are to be only used for defense. It a little hard to describe the Lebanese enterprise as being defensive in nature.

US-supplied cluster munitions are further restricted as to when/how/where they can be used. These agreements are classified, of course, but some details have leaked out: their use was explicitly prohibited against civilians or in predominantly civilian areas, for instance, following Israel's use of cluster munitions in their last Lebanese adventer in the 80s.

And civilian areas -- towns, apartment complexes, etc., are where a lot of these unexploded cluster munitions are being found.

LeeG
08-31-2006, 03:41 PM
yep,,hopefully it was a reality check.

George.
08-31-2006, 03:43 PM
It was looked at as a trial run for the tactics they intend to use in the our upcoming Iran project.

Which explains why Iran is gloating so much over the results, and going full steam ahead on their deterrent project...

John of Phoenix
08-31-2006, 03:46 PM
Seymour is very smart, very well connected and very inquisitive. And a very scary guy to many people in the dubya machine. Thanks Nicholas, I'll look up the article.

You know what's really interesting about Lebanon is the "battle" between Hezbollah (Shiite) and al Qaeda (Sunni). Suddenly Iran and its Hezbollah extension have taken center stage from the Sunnis of al Qaeda and Iraq. That’s a huge turn.

For the first time in modern history, the Israelis didn’t demolish their enemy in a matter of hours or days. And it was just a bunch of ragtag guerillas that stood toe to toe with the fiercest army in the Middle East for over a month and in the end were still standing tall as the tanks pulled back. That’s an incredible psychological victory.

That could account for the cluster bomb farewell.

PeterSibley
08-31-2006, 04:10 PM
Thats a very reasonable suggestion John.I've been asking myself the same question, "why" and last minute desperation sounds quite possible .

A very ugly weapon and an equally ugly mindset .

Nicholas Carey
08-31-2006, 05:07 PM
Seymour is very smart, very well connected and very inquisitive. And a very scary guy to many people in the dubya machine. Thanks Nicholas, I'll look up the article.Wonder of wonders...the New Yorker put it up online:
"Watching Lebanon" (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/articles/060821fa_fact), by Seymour HershThis excerpt really tells you who really drives the show at the White House (hint--it's not the resident-in-chief :D):
...earlier this summer, before the Hezbollah kidnappings, the U.S. government consultant said, several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, "to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear." The consultant added, "Israel began with Cheney. It wanted to be sure that it had his support and the support of his office and the Middle East desk of the National Security Council." After that, "persuading Bush was never a problem, and Condi Rice was on board," the consultant said.

The initial plan, as outlined by the Israelis, called for a major bombing campaign in response to the next Hezbollah provocation, according to the Middle East expert with knowledge of U.S. and Israeli thinking. Israel believed that, by targeting Lebanon’s infrastructure, including highways, fuel depots, and even the civilian runways at the main Beirut airport, it could persuade Lebanon’s large Christian and Sunni populations to turn against Hezbollah, according to the former senior intelligence official. The airport, highways, and bridges, among other things, have been hit in the bombing campaign. The Israeli Air Force had flown almost nine thousand missions as of last week. (David Siegel, the Israeli spokesman, said that Israel had targeted only sites connected to Hezbollah; the bombing of bridges and roads was meant to prevent the transport of weapons.)

The Israeli plan, according to the former senior intelligence official, was "the mirror image of what the United States has been planning for Iran." (The initial U.S. Air Force proposals for an air attack to destroy Iran’s nuclear capacity, which included the option of intense bombing of civilian infrastructure targets inside Iran, have been resisted by the top leadership of the Army, the Navy, and the Marine Corps, according to current and former officials. They argue that the Air Force plan will not work and will inevitably lead, as in the Israeli war with Hezbollah, to the insertion of troops on the ground.)
.
.
.
Cheney’s office supported the Israeli plan, as did Elliott Abrams, a deputy national-security adviser, according to several former and current officials. (A spokesman for the N.S.C. denied that Abrams had done so.) They believed that Israel should move quickly in its air war against Hezbollah. A former intelligence officer said, "We told Israel, ‘Look, if you guys have to go, we’re behind you all the way. But we think it should be sooner rather than later—the longer you wait, the less time we have to evaluate and plan for Iran before Bush gets out of office.’"

Cheney’s point, the former senior intelligence official said, was "What if the Israelis execute their part of this first, and it’s really successful? It’d be great. We can learn what to do in Iran by watching what the Israelis do in Lebanon."

The Pentagon consultant told me that intelligence about Hezbollah and Iran is being mishandled by the White House the same way intelligence had been when, in 2002 and early 2003, the Administration was making the case that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. "The big complaint now in the intelligence community is that all of the important stuff is being sent directly to the top—at the insistence of the White House—and not being analyzed at all, or scarcely," he said. "It’s an awful policy and violates all of the N.S.A.’s strictures, and if you complain about it you’re out," he said. "Cheney had a strong hand in this."
Here's the New Yorker's archive of their recent Lebanon coverage:

http://www.newyorker.com/archive/previous/articles/lebanonArchive

John of Phoenix
08-31-2006, 05:22 PM
“The big question for our Air Force was how to hit a series of hard targets in Iran successfully,” the former senior intelligence official said. “Who is the closest ally of the U.S. Air Force in its planning? It’s not Congo—it’s Israel. Everybody knows that Iranian engineers have been advising Hezbollah on tunnels and underground gun emplacements. And so the Air Force went to the Israelis with some new tactics and said to them, ‘Let’s concentrate on the bombing and share what we have on Iran and what you have on Lebanon.’ ” The discussions reached the Joint Chiefs of Staff and Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, he said.

“The Israelis told us it would be a cheap war with many benefits,” a U.S. government consultant with close ties to Israel said. “Why oppose it? We’ll be able to hunt down and bomb missiles, tunnels, and bunkers from the air. It would be a demo for Iran.”

A demo for Iran. Well, the Iranians learned just how ineffective this tactic really is. We should have such good intel.
Heaadline: Feeling greatly emboldened, the Iranians accelerate their nuclear program to the chagrin of the western world.


Nice work dubya.

George.
08-31-2006, 05:34 PM
a cheap war with many benefits

That's what Crassus thought of his Parthian campaign. And what Julian the Apostate though as well.

Or, horror of horrors:

"Kick in the door, and the whole crumbling edifice will collapse."

Or something to that effect.

geeman
08-31-2006, 05:51 PM
"Brizilian woman sawed in half over parking lot squabble", cant WAIT for George to respond to THAT ONE LOL

George.
08-31-2006, 05:51 PM
I guess the references to Julian and Crassus went right over the Donnald's head.

As they must have gone over the hollow head of his idol and namesake, who currently runs the greatest military force the world has ever seen, except for all the ones that can bog it down and wear it out.

John of Phoenix
08-31-2006, 05:57 PM
Iran defiant on nuclear deadline

Mr Ahmadinejad maintains Iran has a right to a nuclear program
Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has said Tehran will not yield to international pressure to stop its sensitive nuclear work.

Send this along to rummy will you Donn? Tell him Lebanon was a bust.

Meerkat
08-31-2006, 05:59 PM
The time has long passed when there was much in the way of having a reasoned discourse on current events, with several members here. Its fine if the fanactics kill at will, for the same ones, too.Well, it ain't like you're exactly troubled with an open mind. :rolleyes:

John of Phoenix
08-31-2006, 06:12 PM
I'll leave it to you, Donn.

Yeah, he does have a lot to do. Next time you talk to him tell him Iraq is a bust too.

See if he can you get a pic of dubya in his "Mission Accomplished" sky-pilot outfit. The one with the sock in the crotch. Now THAT'S impressive.

George.
08-31-2006, 06:24 PM
Julian and Crassus are dead. Rummy lives.

Ahmedinajad lives. Hezbollah lives. Bin Laden lives. The Shi'ite crescent grows. **** prevails. We lose. W shrinks.

And Rummy is just nailed to his perch. As are you. :p

ishmael
08-31-2006, 06:44 PM
I hate to say it, because I believe in Jung's dictum, the other side of it, that if you become conscious of something it needn't be lived out, but I think these folks, these odd religionists, are going to live this out.

geeman
08-31-2006, 06:59 PM
Yes they are,pure and simple.

George.
08-31-2006, 07:38 PM
Donn, you donn't get it, Do you?

I have no idols. I am a cynic.

You have idols. Rummy, and Cheney, and W. They barely reach Brasil (although they do, for some). They do not reach my island at all - Angela has more impact here than W, and five million years of evolution more than 9-11.

And no, I don't know what titless means. All our women have tits. Most have beautiful ones - even the old ones. My own woman has the most beautiful of all. She will always be so, long after W whines off into a silly moaning shadow of Crassus, just one more worthless would-be imperator having no effect upon Parthia, or reality, or his own demons...

huisjen
08-31-2006, 08:10 PM
Dubya still wonders how many 0's there are in a Brazilion. ;)

LeeG
08-31-2006, 08:26 PM
Dan, yr on a roll tonight

LeeG
08-31-2006, 08:42 PM
ooohh, cat fight

ishmael
08-31-2006, 08:44 PM
Hm.

I love this country. It's not perfect, far from it, but it's a lot better than most other attempts. As JFK retorted to a bully Khrushchev, before the Berlin Wall, "We don't need a wall to keep our people in." There are lot's of quotes from the twentieth century, but that one stands out.

Let's keep after it. It's not a done deal, it's a work in progress.

geeman
08-31-2006, 08:47 PM
That last line of Ish's I agree with!!!!!!