The end of privacy

[ishmael]

There are now an estimated thirty million cameras in the US watching us. Growing every day with the pressure for security. Everything you ever officially were is in a database somewhere. Databases that are in no way secure. The movement is toward having you carry a chip that has all salient information, on your person whenever you transact business--be it travel or banking or groceries.

How do you feel about this? If you think it's a bad thing, what can you do to change it?

[LeeG]

there's something kind of ridiculous about a guy in a trailer in the woods talking in the first person plural about 30million cameras pointed at "us".

[Tristan]

there's something kind of ridiculous about a guy in a trailer in the woods talking in the first person plural about 30million cameras pointed at "us".

Not really, but I suppose it's an excuse for forumites to find fault with his post.:rolleyes:

[Phillip Allen]

I have been against the first public camera and remain so for all successive big brother "eyes"...but no one listens to me

[hansp77]

What can we do to change it?
probably nothing.

Not buying into the politics of fear would be a good start,
but this would have to happen across the board- which will not happen.

How do I feel,

I hate it,
but I hate most of the stuff that is going on in the world today- so that aint no surprise.
I do however try not to buy into the politics of fear, and accept that it is probably going to be the glass of wine in my hand, the smoke I used to inhale, my 74' transit van, or my Van De Stadt Seahorse that will be the end of me... Not some 'mad arab' 'islamic fascist'

[LeeG]

how about ironic given that knowledge of that number comes over the medium that can carry those images.

If youre a retailer, clerk or person standing in front of an ATM machine at night having one of those 30million cameras pointed your way is desirable.

Tristan, do you feel the presence of 30million cameras pointing at you? The juxtaposition of a huge number and one identity (us) doesn't reflect reality in that those cameras are not linked and "we" are not one, a gas station has a security camera, gov't buildings have security cameras, banks have security cameras all pointing in different directions, not at "us".

[Phillip Allen]

how about ironic given that knowledge of that number comes over the medium that can carry those images.

If youre a retailer, clerk or person standing in front of an ATM machine at night having one of those 30million cameras pointed your way is desirable.

Tristan, do you feel the presence of 30million cameras pointing at you?

I don't consider the cameras behind the bank teller to be public...look at the camera over the stop light if you want an example of public spying

[LeeG]

hansp77 got it, slipping into fear isn't a solution.

[ishmael]

To be clear, this isn't about "politics of fear" and what that implies. It's just a reality.

Does it make me afraid? You bet. When all is surveilled it puts the traffic boot on what western liberlism is about, free inquiry. Am I afraid, you better know it.

BTW, Lee, my little house is just that. Sure it's a doublewide trailer. Have you been in a doublewide trailer, ever?

[JimD]

For me, the big question is why do the English pronounce the word privacy with a short 'i' and not a long 'i' like everyone else in the world?

[Tristan]

I don't consider the cameras behind the bank teller to be public...look at the camera over the stop light if you want an example of public spying
There's pros and cons. I WISH we had cameras at all the stop lights in Naples (FL) because it might get some of the sunsabitches who run those lights off the damned road. I can't drive to the grocery store a mile away without seeing some bastard run a light. Left turn lights are the favorites. The rule here seems to be: When your turn light goes from yellow to red -- speed up! It's OK to make your turn after the turn light turns red providing no more than two cars who have the green light have entered the intersection.

[Tom Montgomery]

Does it make me afraid? You bet.... Am I afraid, you better know it.
I suspect this is hyperbole.

If it is true, I feel for you. It must be awful to live in fear.

[Tylerdurden]

[quote=hansp77]What can we do to change it?
probably nothing.[quote]

I am looking for it but there is a website about british traffic camera's from the peoples perspective. It shows photo's of hundreds of camera's destroyed by fire. Just freedom loving folks finding a use for old tires. I have also seen articles about the use of paintballs by some enterprising people in NYC.
What has been forgotten is that the core values of this country included "civil disobedience"
Today it is let's wave the flag and put ribbon magenets on our car to support the troops while congress cuts bennifits to veteran's.
Or to let old people die under "part B" because they can't get life saving medications.
Or the latest "Sir I must take your sports drink and shampoo because it might contain Liquid explosives and pour it into this garbage can to mix with all the other potential explosives for your safety"

This will go on for as long as people are concerned more about their Plasma Tvs, Brightwork and 7/elevens than their liberty.

In order to live free one must live free and be prepared to defend it.
Make a point of doing whatever it takes Not to support the system whenever you can, thats a start.

Warning, This post has been flagged by the NSA, read it at your own risk.

[ishmael]

Tom,

I don't live in a constant tension around this, but if you aren't afraid you simply aren't paying attention.

[LeeG]

To be clear, this isn't about "politics of fear" and what that implies. It's just a reality.

Does it make me afraid? You bet. When all is surveilled it puts the traffic boot on what western liberlism is about, free inquiry. Am I afraid, you better know it.

BTW, Lee, my little house is just that. Sure it's a doublewide trailer. Have you been in a doublewide trailer, ever?

Jack, the disparaging remark regarding trailer had nothing to do with the quality of your home but the image of isolation and self-referential reality far from the reality of surveillance cameras you fear.

A good home can be anywhere and made of anything.

I lived one year in the woods of Mendocino where many friends lived in small cabins, trailers and one double wide that was finished quite well with exterior wood siding and roof, garden, shop, barn. The fellow living in the double wide at the bottom of the valley was retired, he provided a social gathering for dope trimming and a community brewery. Unfortunately he died in his early 60's as his alcholism accellerated in the last five years.

[Phillip Allen]

"Warning, This post has been flagged by the NSA, read it at your own risk."

Without doubt! and I would give those responsible a good piece of my mind with as many witnesses as possible if I could.

[Tom Montgomery]

...if you aren't afraid you simply aren't paying attention.
Bah. :rolleyes:

Maybe this explains why you live in the circumstance that you do.

[huisjen]

I've got other things, reality for instance, to pay attention to instead.

Dan

[LeeG]

oops

http://desmoinesregister.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060811/NEWS01/60811010/1001/NLETTER01

Two teenage boys face theft charges for allegedly possessing radios and other equipment belonging to a White House agency.

The 13 year old and 14 year old, both of Bettendorf, were charged with second-degree theft and were under juvenile court supervision, court officials said.

[Phillip Allen]

There's pros and cons. I WISH we had cameras at all the stop lights in Naples (FL) because it might get some of the sunsabitches who run those lights off the damned road. I can't drive to the grocery store a mile away without seeing some bastard run a light. Left turn lights are the favorites. The rule here seems to be: When your turn light goes from yellow to red -- speed up! It's OK to make your turn after the turn light turns red providing no more than two cars who have the green light have entered the intersection.

If you would give up not only your own freedom but mine as well to satisfy some personal gripe then you err in a larger way than you may suppose...

[ishmael]

So, Tom, you don't mind that everything a person does is being surveilled? That the movement is toward more and more databases, and watching?

Your aquiescence is what I fear most. Intelligent people just shrugging their shoulders.

People don't realize how much of what we have is based in a freedom from people nosing around. When we lose that freedom, as we are now, western liberalism will be dead.

[Phillip Allen]

"People don't realize how much of what we have is based in a freedom from people nosing around. When we lose that freedom, as we are now, western liberalism will be dead."

Unequivocally!

[Tom Montgomery]

...you don't mind that everything a person does is being surveilled? That the movement is toward more and more databases, and watching?
Everything that you and I do is not being observed. Either you know this, and are engaging in hyperbole, or you actually are living in fear and paranoia. I suspect it is hyperbole.

I can absolutely imagine the topics of about 80% of your threads as the subject of a Seinfeld episode. Jerry, Elaine, George and Kramer did on that sitcom exactly what you do on this forum week after week; obsess to hyperbolic extreme about some aspect of other people or life that puzzled, distressed, or annoyed them. But they acknowledged, with a broad wink to the audience, that the show was actually about "nothing."

[Tom Montgomery]

There are now an estimated thirty million cameras in the US watching us. Growing every day with the pressure for security

How do you feel about this? If you think it's a bad thing, what can you do to change it?

I think the vast majority of these cameras either provide a measure of security for me and mine, or affect me not at all.

If all the cameras frighten you, write to your Congressman, Senators and the Whitehouse. Write a letter to the Editor of your local paper. Organize members of your community.

I'll guarantee you that yapping on the WoodenBoat Forum about your fear and paranoia concerning this issue will not change a thing.

[ishmael]

It's not hyperbole, Tom. You can think that, and it comforts you, but the infrastructure to keep track of all of us is growing by leaps and bounds.

I have nothing to hide, am doing nothing nefarious, so why should it bother me? This thinking is backwards. It turns on its head innocent until proven guilty, it turns on its head my right to privacy.

Why this doesn't bother you is an enigma to me. You seem intelligent enough to see it as a major problem.

Our experiment is based in freedom. If you know people are looking over your shoulder it will kiil that freedom. Always has, always will. Simple as that.

[Tom Montgomery]

So, Tom.... Your aquiescence is what I fear most. Intelligent people just shrugging their shoulders.
I don't think it is truly a problem. You do. So Jack, what have you done to rectify this problem? Anything at all beyond posting to this forum?

Or do you feel that you are helpless?

[Paul Girouard]

Humm these dude's where buying cell phones , lot's of cell phone's .

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20060813/D8JFGT480.html



DALLAS (AP) - The wife of one of three Texas men arraigned on terrorism-related charges in Michigan says her husband and his relatives are not terrorists, but are simply trying to make money by reselling cell phones.


Seems crazy to buy phones from Walmart to resell.:confused:

The "what if's" IMO , out weigh the freedoms , as the few will screw up the works . If these guys and those like them doing" crazy things" are innocent it is MO that the system will work out for them ina month or so. But IF they did have harm intended it has been prevented. Where the balance on this stuff is , is nebulous. Freedom has a price , some want to think it's free , IMO , not that it's worth spit , 9/11 changed a whole $hit load of "freedoms" for a lot of folks. It's just a fact of life post 9/11. And Arab's will and should , again IMO be profiled as such. Yes Timmy Mc vieght(sp) yad yad yad. Do the math , the # say the threat is from Arab males young Arab males , should all dogs be considered a threat becauce pitbulls do a lot of biting ? Are all pitbulls bad ? No BUT do you approacha pitbull like you do a yellow lab ?

Ok have at it George , Peter, Yad yad yad... :eek:

[Tom Montgomery]

Our experiment is based in freedom. If you know people are looking over your shoulder it will kiil that freedom. Always has, always will. Simple as that.
Our experiment in freedom will die once an overwhelming number of citizens adopt the belief that they are helpless to change anything.

If you truly believe this is a "major problem" and have done nothing to change things, you are a part of the problem. Not a part of the solution.

[ishmael]

How old are you, Tom? Just curious. I turned fifty a couple months ago.

[Tom Montgomery]

Fifty-two. But 15 of those years don't count.

And also originally from Northeast Ohio.

[Tom Montgomery]

Speaking of "killing freedom," have you noticed the steady decline in the numbers of registered voters who actually cast a ballot at election time? Citizens adopting the belief that they are helpless to change anything....

[ishmael]

Where in NE Ohio? I grew up in a small town outside Cleveland, Berea. A Hebrew name.

It was founded on its sandstone quarries, became a college town with Baldwin Wallace, was becoming a suburb of Cleveland as I grew up, and when I left.

A good place, for the most part, to land.

[Paul Girouard]

How old are you, Tom? Just curious. I turned fifty a couple months ago.

Jeesh no way Jack :eek: :eek: you got to be 70 or 80 to be a as recluse and ah different as you are:D

Serenity now! serenity now! Where's Crammer when ya need him:eek:

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Why would someone from Texas go to BFN (Butt F*** Nowhere) to buy cell phones?



My apologies to any formites that may happen to live in Caro, MI, I'm sure it is a very pleasant area.

[Tom Montgomery]

Vermilion, hence my interest in sailing, boats and boating. I come by it honestly. My ex-wife was raised in Richmond Heights. I ranged east to west from Chagrin Falls to Sandusky and south to Holmes county.

Lousiville is home now. Ohio is for visits.

[Robmill0605]

The cameras are beginning to be pointed at "us". I live in Fl and in in Tampa there is a district of bars and strret performers, cigar shops etc. called Ybor City.
The police have installed face recognition camers to look for outstanding fugitives bad guys etc. They are monitoring a gas station, bank etc. They are scanning the general public with face recognition software.

........


© St. Petersburg Times,
published August 8, 2001
TAMPA -- Rob Milliron has never married. He has never had kids, never been to Oklahoma.
Yet three Tampa police officers went to Milliron's construction job site Monday and asked him whether he was wanted in Oklahoma for child neglect.
http://www.sptimes.com/News/080801/photos/tb-rob.jpgMillironIt seems that his face wound up on a surveillance camera in Ybor City. News cameras captured that image. A woman in Tulsa saw his picture in U.S. News and World Report and called Tampa police.
She said the man in the photo was her ex-husband and was wanted on felony child neglect charges.
Turns out they had the wrong man. But the experience has turned Milliron into a vocal critic of the controversial surveillance system.
"From that picture, I was identified as a wanted person," said Milliron, 32, whose only previous brush with the law involved a marijuana possession charge when he was 19.
The surveillance system uses software called Face-It and is linked to 36 cameras throughout the Centro Ybor entertainment complex and along E Seventh Avenue. Images taken from the cameras are compared with a data base that includes wanted felons and sexual offenders.
If the image is a match, officers are dispatched to question the person. But in this case it wasn't the system that flagged Milliron, but simply a woman who saw his picture with a news story.
The plainclothes detective, accompanied by two uniformed officers, had a copy of the magazine, folded open to the page with Milliron's photo.
After producing identification, answering the detective's questions and enduring curious stares and inquiries from his construction co-workers, a mortified Milliron went home.
"He was absolutely horrified," said Cheryl Toole, 32, Milliron's girlfriend of nine years.
"He said, "I was surrounded by the police today,' " Toole recalled. "We were worried they'd come to our home in the middle of the night."
Equally upsetting, Milliron said, was the fact that beneath his photo in the magazine, a headline read, "You Can't Hide Those Lying Eyes in Tampa."
"It made me out to be a criminal," he said.
Tampa police Detective Bill Todd, who took the call from the Tulsa woman and interviewed Milliron, said Milliron did not seem upset.
"He was laughing about it," said Todd, who spearheaded the software project that captured Milliron's image.
Milliron's photograph was captured in June while he was on a lunch break in Ybor City.
He didn't know it at the time, but the Police Department used his photo to demonstrate the system to local news media.
The software costs $30,000, but is on loan for a year by its owner, Visionics Corp. of New Jersey, while the department decides whether to purchase it.
Milliron's photo ran in the St. Petersburg Times June 30. A caption under the photo read, "The man in this image was not identified as wanted."
The Times later sold the photo to U.S. News and World Report.
The software system has sparked controversy nationwide. Protesters say the "spy cameras" intrude on citizens' privacy. Mayor Dick Greco, however, has said the system is no more intrusive than the cameras found in banks and shopping malls.
Milliron, who says he plans to retain an attorney, hopes the software system will be removed. "I don't think it's right," he said. "They made me feel like a criminal."
http://www.sptimes.com/News/080801/TampaBay/_They_made_me_feel_li.shtml

.........

I AM against this, and I think that we will soon have these cameras pointed at "us" more and more.

[Robmill0605]

If this is not 'big brother' watching us, then I don't know what is.
Who is to decide how these images are used?
If you do not think that this will be out of control, just take a look at the extensive video surviellance system in place in London.
Cameras on every corner and in every public space.
It's scary.

[ishmael]

I've been in the backseat three times. The last time was justified, I was behind the wheel impaired. No arguments there.

But the other two times were scary because I'd done nothing wrong, yet got picked up anyway. They had me, a frightened animal.

[Tom Montgomery]

"After producing identification, answering the detective's questions and enduring curious stares and inquiries from his construction co-workers, a mortified Milliron went home.....

Tampa police Detective Bill Todd, who took the call from the Tulsa woman and interviewed Milliron, said Milliron did not seem upset.

'He was laughing about it,' said Todd, who spearheaded the software project that captured Milliron's image."

I AM against this, and I think that we will soon have these cameras pointed at "us" more and more.
Maybe the cop is lying. Or maybe Milliron became mortified once he got home and thought about it.

I smell a lawsuit. Enough of those -- and big cash awards -- may solve the problem.

[Paul Girouard]

Ya just let it go , things will work out just fine . Why then is everyone so pissed about poor Govt. responce to Katrina ? Hey let the folks there figure it out , it's state issue . Keep the Fed. in check , ya right then ya all whine like a friggin S-3 on final:rolleyes:

[Tom Montgomery]

I've been in the backseat three times. The last time was justified, I was behind the wheel impaired. No arguments there.

But the other two times were scary because I'd done nothing wrong, yet got picked up anyway. They had me, a frightened animal.
I was stopped in Amherst, Ohio in the middle of the afternoon by three squad cars. Guns were drawn.

Turns out I, and my vehicle, fit the profile of someone who had robbed a bank nearby that day. Like Mr. Milliron, once my ID was verified I was set free with apologies.

Maybe I should have felt mortified, hired a lawyer and sued?

[Paul Girouard]

I was stopped in Amherst, Ohio in the middle of the afternoon by three squad cars. Guns were drawn.

Turns out I, and my vehicle, fit the profile of someone who had robbed a bank nearby that day. Like Mr. Milliron, once my ID was verified I was set free with apologies.

Maybe I should have felt mortified, hired a lawyer and sued?

Yes you should how dare they profile you / mix you up etc etc . Sue the SOB'ich's . No one anywhere should ever be stop , doing anything they want , where have all the freedoms gone ??? Anarchy should be the "Norm" , FREEDOM , I say FREEDOM ! To all to do all. Perfect harmony with total madness:rolleyes:

[ishmael]

The second to last time I was in my hippy mode, a bit shabby, and was in my home town for my brother's wedding.

They picked me up for being a suspicious character(apparently there was a bad guy in the neighborhood at the time). Same thing as you, Tom, a bunch of police cars gathered. Hell, it was a summer afternoon, and a bunch of kids gathered, too. Me sitting there, with not very nice police doing police stuff, a gaggle of kids pointing fingers and gossiping. A bunch of them! Obviously not much real police work going on in that town.

All I was doing was taking a walk through my old stomping ground. I remember the arresting cop looking at my Maine driver's license and asking, quite indignantly, "Why isn't this an Ohio license?" "Well, I don't live in Ohio", says me.

It bordered on the surreal.

I don't want these people to have any more power than is necessary.

[Paul Girouard]

I don't want these people to have any more power than is necessary.

So you'll be the judge for the "right " amount?
FREEDOM I SAY FREEDOM ! Anarchy is the only true Freedom. You girls have a nice day , off to work, so I can enjoy more freedom from big brother:eek: :rolleyes:

Caged animal ya say, have a good day Jack , stay inside , it's the only "Safe " place .

[geeman]

Most of my life my best friends were cops ,up until we moved to Tenn.Year before last the wife and I were heading home from work after midenite and were pulled over by a county cop.He very politely approuched the truck and ask where we were coming from.I gave him my ID and ask what the problem was. He explained very politely that a gas station had been robbed and the bolo on the truck fit mine.We established quickly that we were too broke to have just robbed a gas station and we all laughed and continued on home went to bed and slept soundly.

[ishmael]

Paul,

Had a bad apple? What we all agree on, in this marvelous republic and its ancillary democracies shall be the power of the police. Vigilence, brother, vigilence.

[Paul Girouard]

Most of my life my best friends were cops ,up until we moved to Tenn.Year before last the wife and I were heading home from work after midenite and were pulled over by a county cop.He very politely approuched the truck and ask where we were coming from.I gave him my ID and ask what the problem was. He explained very politely that a gas station had been robbed and the bolo on the truck fit mine.We established quickly that we were too broke to have just robbed a gas station and we all laughed and continued on home went to bed and slept soundly.

No way geeman , you where un justly detained , SUE the SOB's , probally caused all your current issues , add those as required, more is better, :D YMMV:eek:

[Paul Girouard]

Paul,

Had a bad apple? What we all agree on, in this marvelous republic and its ancillary democracies shall be the power of the police. Vigilence, brother, vigilence.

To much coffee ,to much whine-in , all adds up :D :D Anarchy , freedom to all and to all a good day:D

[Tom Montgomery]

I don't want these people to have any more power than is necessary.
Son, we live in a world that has law-breakers, and those law-breakers have to be apprehended by men with guns.

Who's gonna do it? You? You, Jack Heinlen?

The police have more responsibility than you could possibly fathom.

You weep for Milliron, and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what the police know. That the procedure that resulted in Milliron's mistaken ID, while mortifying for him, probably protects others. And that police procedure, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, protects lives and property.

I know that deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want the police profiling suspects, you need the police profiling suspects.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain the facts of life to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very protection the police provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. I am sure they would prefer you said, "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a side arm and walk a beat. Either way, I imagine the police don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

:D ;)

[Tristan]

If you would give up not only your own freedom but mine as well to satisfy some personal gripe then you err in a larger way than you may suppose...

You want freedom to drive like a jerk? Sorry, but that kind of freesom can kiss my arse. I really hate it when people are killed by jerkoffs who run red lights, speed, drive drunk, etc. My two kids are in High School where, last year, a 17 year old classmate was killed by someone running a red light. Every week someone around here is killed , injured, or has their car totaled by someone running a red light. If cameras at intersectons can reduce the numbers of such incidents I'm all for it. When innocent people are hurt and killed because of those who can't obey traffic laws this is hardly a personal gripe, it's about scofflaws who need to be stopped. By the way, cameras at traffic lights are hardly new. In 1956 there were such in Philadelphia.

[ishmael]

Tom,

I have a lot of respect for police, and obey the law. I just don't want them in charge.

[geeman]

For years I fought for and finally won a battle to install security cams in our mall where wife and I work.For those years the mall manager disagreed with me on the need for said cams.Last year one of our mall employees was accused of a late nite theft by a store in our building.I pointed out that a cam would have shown that store and made the "case a make or break". Boss agreed and we installed 18 cameras thru out the mall.Since that time the system has PAID for itself several times over ,more often the not,showing someones innocence as opposed to guilt.Think about that for a moment ISH/JACK.

[Tom Montgomery]

These thirty million security cameras -- that I am supposed to be outraged about -- are all located either in public spaces or on private property, are they not? What amount of "privacy" is one entitled to while in the public square or, for example, in a bank lobby?

None are peering into my home. I think this is much ado about nothing.

[Tom Montgomery]

Jack, answer a specific question: In what venues do you object to the presence of a security camera? In what venues do you believe their presence is OK? Or do you believe their presence is never OK?

[Tom Montgomery]

Tom, I have a lot of respect for police... I just don't want them in charge.
They are not in charge. They are public servants.

You are in charge.

Do you believe that? If not, why not?

[ishmael]

We disagree, Tom. Be thankful we have that right. It's not the rule, it's the exception. Don't take it for granted.

[Tom Montgomery]

I am not clear on what disagreement you are refering to. Are you saying that you believe that, as a US citizen, voter and taxpayer, you are not in charge? That you and I are helpless before the authority of police and government?

Or are you saying you believe the presence of a security camera is never OK?

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Now that I have your attention, why are you doing this to yourself? Jack has a view of life that is quite different in many ways from mine and possibly yours. You are not going to be able to change that view. If Jack is content with his view and it hurts no one else then let him believe what he wants.

[Tom Montgomery]

Oh, sometimes when I have a little time to kill I like to egg Jack on. It's harmless fun. I don't take anything he posts very seriously. I certainly harbor no illusions about changing his views on any topic.

[Memphis Mike]

I'll tell ya one thing. I'm out there on a daily basis entering places that most of you have never been and can tell you that yes, security cameras are present, more so in government installations than in the private sector and no, they do not effect my personal life whatsoever. I've had numerous background checks up to and including one by the FBI that also involved fingerprinting. None of this has had any adverse effect on my personal life.

If you want to worry about something, there are more dyer circumstances to worry about in our country today than security measures.

A complete collapse of our system and our way of life is underway with no apparent solution and no one interested in trying to solve the problems we face in society today. Everyone is too concerned with self and how to get richer. All of our problems can be traced to one thing. Money.


My advice would be to choose your candidates wisely the next time you go to the polls.

[Tom Montgomery]

Amen, Mike.

[Phillip Allen]

Son, we live in a world that has law-breakers, and those law-breakers have to be apprehended by men with guns.

Who's gonna do it? You? You, Jack Heinlen?

The police have more responsibility than you could possibly fathom.

You weep for Milliron, and you curse the police. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what the police know. That the procedure that resulted in Milliron's mistaken ID, while mortifying for him, probably protects others. And that police procedure, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, protects lives and property.

I know that deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you don't want the police profiling suspects, you need the police profiling suspects.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain the facts of life to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very protection the police provide, then question the manner in which they provide it. I am sure they would prefer you said, "thank you," and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a side arm and walk a beat. Either way, I imagine the police don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to.

:D ;)

this sounds a whole lot like Bush's "trust me"

[S/V Laura Ellen]

Oh, sometimes when I have a little time to kill I like to egg Jack on. It's harmless fun. I don't take anything he posts very seriously. I certainly harbor no illusions about changing his views on any topic.

But, who is playing with who? Jack is probably also thinking he is egging you on, for some harmless fun.:D Jack seems to have very few other sources of amusement.

[Tom Montgomery]

But, who is playing with who? Jack is probably also thinking he is egging you on, for some harmless fun.:D Jack seems to have very few other sources of amusement.
I think you are dead on! :D

You know, I don't mind if my participation in this thread amused Ish for a while.

I suspect you are correct about Jack's self-imposed isolation, the effect it has on his perspective on things, and his limited sources of amusement. It is sad if true. Believe me, I wouldn't have spent so much time here today if not for the fact that I'm ill and trying to rest up so I can make it to work tomorrow.

[LeeG]

BINGO,,,time to go play on the water.

[Meerkat]

If those cameras deter pedeophiles, it would be a good thing!

[Phillip Allen]

If those cameras deter pedeophiles, it would be a good thing!

It's comin to that..."make sure your bed is in front of the camera according to the laws of Big Brother"

[ishmael]

The cameras bother me less than the databases, but then I live in a fairly rural area with no cameras unless I go to the bank or the convenience store. There are very legit uses of such technology, but I don't like the routine collection of information just because we can.

I don't think I'm being particularly paranoid about this. I do think when your ideas and thoughts are subject to scrutiny by some anonymous other it is stiffling of free inquiry.

For example, I'm working on a novel. A part of writing it involves research on the web in a variety of areas, including some that might be of interest to someone crunching through what people search. Do I type in nuclear weapons, plutonium, implosion device etc? What might this flag? Just wondering about innocent but "suspicious" things that get you on a list, or soon will.

As to the ad hominem BS some can't help engage in, have at it gents. It's your karma, not mine.

[LeeG]

as to the fuzzy boundaries and squirrely perspective,,it's all yours.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

What can I do about it? What do I think?

I think the people that voted for George Bush are happy about it, or should shut the hell up, because it's his administration that has set back human rights in the USA about 100 years.

I won't do anything about it. Canada doesn't have this problem.

[ishmael]

Canada doesn't have this problem? What a joke! This problem isn't confined to a particular country, or administration, it's unfolding everywhere.

[Tom Montgomery]

I do think when your ideas and thoughts are subject to scrutiny by some anonymous other it is stiffling of free inquiry.

For example, I'm working on a novel. A part of writing it involves research on the web in a variety of areas, including some that might be of interest to someone crunching through what people search. Do I type in nuclear weapons, plutonium, implosion device etc? What might this flag? Just wondering about innocent but "suspicious" things that get you on a list, or soon will.
So you are saying you fear your online research may result in your name winding up on some government watch list? What are you researching?

[ishmael]

What difference does it make? As a free individual, in a supposedly free and open society, I should be able to research anything.

[Tom Montgomery]

As a free individual, in a supposedly free and open society, I should be able to research anything.
Really? Anything? That's also what this guy thought. (http://www.thesmokinggun.com:80/archive/petetownshend1.html) It turned out he was wrong.

[ishmael]

Trafficking in a few narrow areas is different. I think it's good that some things aren't allowed. But it ought to be very narrow in definition. If I want to investigate the world of kiddie porn, as a journalist, I should be allowed. If I'm passing it around, getting off on it, that's another matter. And who decides?

These discussions always come back to extremities. The extremities aren't what I'm talking about, it's the day to day loss of privacy, not the control of whackos, that worries me.

[Tom Montgomery]

Townsend maintains that his intention was legitimate research in connection with an autobiography he is writing. His internet research was illegal nonetheless.

Jack, here is the organization you want to join: The Electronic Privacy Information Center. (http://www.epic.org/) Good luck.

[WX]

Cameras, at best help identify the perpetrators of crime. I would much rather see a cop on the street.

[LeeG]

flutter your hands away Jack, the beginning of this thread was about 30million cameras and now it's your computer history.

At least you're getting out, just think where you'd be without the internet.

[ishmael]

Keep mewling whatever it is you mewl, Lee. It besuits you.

[LeeG]

cheers

[Tom Montgomery]

"besuits" :confused:

The difference between the right word and the almost right word is the difference between lightning and a lightning bug.
--Mark Twain

[LeeG]

It's pronounced bezoots.

Like a stubborn mewl

wearing a zoot suit.

[Dave Fleming]

As soon as you try to chase and grab Zen, you've already stumbled past it.

Yuan-Wu

[geeman]

You know,, things I worry about are the mans family that has to bury him because an idiot decided to pass a car on the side of the road the other day and because he was busy passing on the FAR RIGHT,he didnt see the man minding his own business riding a bicycle on the side of the road.He hit the man ,killed him instantly,then tried to get away.He was stopped by a local guy in a bigger truck then he had .The guy stopped him by ramming his truck and disabling it.That poor mans family has to live with his senseless death,all because the man was in a hurry.Maybe a cop in the right place could have saved a life.

[Phillip Allen]

I have an abiding horror of hitting a cyclist as I hug the inside of a curve on our mountain roads...the cyclists certainly have a right to be there but there are not enough of them to remind me regularly of the likelihood of their presents...my minds drifts to the car that came toward me on my side of the same sort of curve in his car, there was no where for me to go! The cyclists love our narrow mountain roads for some reason.