The End of Wilderness

[ishmael]

I was reminiscing over on John's car thread about how as a pup I went out into what was still wilderness with a group of fellow seekers. When we hiked out into that desert of Big Bend we were on our own. If we didn't check in at the appointed time, someone would come looking for us, but the inbetween time was our own.

You can, maybe, find this still in parts of Africa, but for the most part it's dead. No one goes into Big Bend without the cheap connection, or the silly. We were on a hike, an expedition, and it was unkown to the outside world.

Does it matter that now walking there IS connected? I think it does. A big part of the psychology of what we did was that it was a walk into the the unknown, the wilderness, with noone save we knowing where we were, what we were up to. A favorite memory was navigating to a flowing spring with just a compass and a map, noone around or thinking about us for a twenty mile radius and swimming naked in the spring.

I don't know what to ask, except what has been lost?

[LeeG]

nothing is missing if you're there

[BrianW]

I don't think anything is lost by having communications. There's plenty of ways to die quickly, where instant comms will not help. They can prevent long slow linger deaths.

I'm planning on renting a satphone for my trip into the Chugach Mountians in two weeks. Depending on the plan, and how many minutes I have, I'll probably call the family and let them know I'm doing okay.

Heck, this 'trip' is so close to Anchorage I may get cell phone coverage if I stay up high enough. Not exactly Big Bend country this time out. ;)

[BrianW]

I did run a search on the Svea 123 stoves mentioned by you and pcford. Looks like a nice stove, good reviews. I've got a MSR Whisperlite, but think I'll pick up a Jet Boil...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/hunting/jetboil.jpg

...to save weight and hopefully some stability. I like the fact everything packs up inside the pot and the fuel cartridges are simply to use and won't spill. I've dropped more than one pot of boiling water off the MSR stove...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/hunting/whisperlite.gif

[hansp77]

The erosion of space and time...
it is very interesting this sort of thing.
I had a bit of an epiphany last year, sitting in the front seat of a mini bus bouncing my way down the main road from the bankok cambodia border, through Cambodia to Siem Riep, holding on for dear life (if you have been on this road then you know what I am talking about- we suffered a total of four flat tires on this journey, three of them near simultanously in the middle of a mozzie/rice paddy- where we then spent most of the night waiting for another bus).

In this moment, bouncing along through the stunning cambodian fields, feeling like I was on the other side of my normal planet- deep into the unkown and distant, my father called on me on my mobile phone from Thailand, that was still working under Thai mobile coverage. It wasn't meant to be working, and I simply hadn't turned it off yet, It was absolutely bizare, to be chatting about food and mundane issues through this instantanous digital technology, in a place that even a few years ago meant near complete isolation. So very different than the last time I travelled in the region.

Is something lost?
I think most definately,
but it really aint that simple.

The increase of interconnectedness. Globablisation in a nut shell.

Will I take a mobile next time?
Probably.

[WX]

Any Aussie's out there remember Choofa's?
Pressurize petrol stove, very small and very compact....can't seem to buy them anymore.

[ishmael]

hansp,

I submit that having a phone with you makes it not a wilderness. I think, with all the advantages such communication brings, that it's unfortunate. You go into the bush to be tested, to strip away the civilized advantage. If you've got a phone to call in the Mounties if things go bad, what fun is that? We knew when we walked off into the desert, that we were on our own. It made us careful, it made us plan, it had us learn basic bush medicine, etc. All good stuff. There was an aura of initiation about it that you just can't get if you're carrying a phone.

WX,

The Svea was, is, a distinct object, a great stove. Was the Aussie stove you speak of a small metal box, with a fold out tank for the petrol? Optimus made one like that, and I'll bet the Aussies either copied it or made it under license. Or maybe something completely different.

The thing about the SVEA is, it's almost impossible to break it. If you've got fuel, and a spark, it will fire up and boil stuff.

[ljb5]

Brian, be careful with that Whisperlight! I had one explode on me in Swtizerland once. I know a few other people who have had the same experience.

Jack, you're definitely right that something is lost if a person wanders without disconnecting --- but the choice is still available.

A friend of mine was isolated in Nepal during all of September and most of October 2001. He didn't heard about 9-11 until a month later when he crossed paths with some Germans who had to describe the attacks using pantomine and charades.

[ishmael]

I've used various stoves, including the newer lightweight ones with seperate bottles. The light ones work well, until someone sits on them, or drops them, or otherwise mangles them.

The primus(SVEA) is damn near idiot proof.

As to cell phones. I can't imagine having one anywhere unless my business or private life really called for it. Who wants to be "on call" all the time? And taking one to a mountaintop, or a desert is out of the question.

I wonder what Big Bend is like now. It's been thirty years. When I was there is was still the devil's elbow leaning on a bar at the end of nowhere. An empty, wild place. Last I heard it was full of mountain bikers and chi chi backpackers. Busy.

We didn't see another soul in the backcountry for three weeks.

[Meerkat]

Brian; www.packstoves.com carries the jetboil at an excellent price. Wish I could say the same about their Primus stoves, which now cost spanking high prices, at least for the one I'd like.

The end of wilderness is the beginning of bewilderedness. ;)

[hansp77]

hansp,

I submit that having a phone with you makes it not a wilderness. I think, with all the advantages such communication brings, that it's unfortunate. You go into the bush to be tested, to strip away the civilized advantage. If you've got a phone to call in the Mounties if things go bad, what fun is that? We knew when we walked off into the desert, that we were on our own. It made us careful, it made us plan, it had us learn basic bush medicine, etc. All good stuff. There was an aura of initiation about it that you just can't get if you're carrying a phone.


Aint no mounties in Cambodia...
besides, I only had the phone for my stays in Bankok where one of my best friends lives, and who I was staying with.
Testing onself in the wilderness is good and all, but,
but when lost in Bankok, in the dark, in a dodgey wet alleyway, and you hail a cabbi to take you somewhere, you've lost your address, he can't speak English, and his Thai is simply too good to understand my mangled attempts...
The phone was fantastic. It made everything easy. Any problem, just call my freind, hand the phone over, and my friends fluent Thai would have me meeting him at a specific bar, within ten minutes and a cool strong drink in my hand...

Now this was lazy traveling here, in Thailand it was a holiday, but it made what can be a very stressfull city a walk in the park. It was the first time I travelled with a mobile, and it did considerably change the experience. I simply forgot to turn it off as I headed into Cambodia, hence the surprise.
But hey, civilisation had spread pretty deeply there too. I was simply amazed at the range of fine European (and even Australian) cheeses, meats and wines that I found in Siem Riep.

There are many places in Australia, particularly in the arid regions, where though I would love to test my self out there in the wilderness- unless you are Indigenous to the particular areas, or with the right knowledge, or guided by someone with such, it is a very bad idea to go there without emergency communication (and of course the right supplies and equipment).
There are even a fair few roads here that you shouldn't drive down without some proper form of communication.
But this is a very very big, mostly dry country.
Despite the talk of snakes and spiders and other human killers- it will most likely be dehydration that will end the ill-prepared.

[ishmael]

"Ain't no Mounties in Cambodia." LOL. I'll bet, in a strict sense, you're wrong, there are RCMP in Cambodia. Not that they'll come and rescue your ass if you get in trouble, but I'll bet they're there.

The issue of emergency comms. There's a fellow, a Yank, named Webb Chiles. He's a voyager, sailor, that's what he's done with his life for the last thirty years. Some fairly interesting writing has come out of it, but to the point. He refuses, the last I heard, to carry a long distance radio, or an EPIRB. His think is, "I'm doing this to be on my own, I'm taking chances, I like to be independant, and it would be wrong to ask someone else to risk their life to come and rescue me if I get into trouble."

That's maybe a bit radical, but I like his spirit.

"unless you are Indigenous to the particular areas, or with the right knowledge, or guided by someone with such" But you see, that ought to be the point of going, to acquire the knowledge, not to go there as some sort of raggedy-assed tourist.

I'd love to see some of Australia's outback.

[hansp77]

Ishmael,
Your right of course,
for anyone that likes to think they are on the other end of the spectrum as a 'ragedy assed tourist' the aim is to try to aquire the knowledge to look after oneself in the wilderness.
Now this will do for a lot of places- general skills, tricks and practices will do to provide, and even ensure, survival.
But my point is that in parts of the Australian outback (as I am sure a lot of other places) general rules and techniques simply will not sustain life.
The environment is simply too harsh and unfreindly to human life.

To survive in some of these places requires distinct and individual local knowledge- provided for and handed down by generations (or thousands of) of experience. For example, where in a drought the only source for gaining water might be within a couple of hundred km's. This may be something like a invisible spring, buried five foot under the surface, where if you dig down to it, you can find a tiny muddy puddle. All the general skills in the world are not going to help you find this one 1meter square spot in rugged terain and 45 degree celcius heat.

Rules and skills from one place will not ensure survival for another.

Thus, there are places here (and no doubt elsewhere) where if you want to go in unaided and without communication, that is if you want to learn the techniques of survival of the land in this place, then you will have to go in with a guide or local, becuase no intuition or learned skill will provide this survival knowledge.

Seeing 'some' of Australia's outback is the best that most Australians I know ever get close to.
There is a real lot of it out there.
Good luck, I hope you see some someday.
If you do,
take care.

[ishmael]

We're in basic agreement. If you want to go into the outback, learn what the people living there for centuries do.

When I went on my walkabouts in the SW US, I, we, relied very much on local knowledge. Our topos were marked, by local knowledge that came through the park personel, where the water holes were. Which were reported to have water, which were dry, etc. It could be a tinaha, a hollow with water, or it could be a spring, but every one was marked.

It's not a great mystery that the primary issue in the desert is water. It was one of the beautiful things about those trips: spoiled middleclass kids suddenly having to think about water.

[Tristan]

The thing that scares me about the "wilderness" or in fact, anywhere away from houses, roads, etc. is the possibility of running into some nutcase with a gun and a chip on his shoulder. And I do mean nutcase, not just your average guy.

[hansp77]

It's not a great mystery that the primary issue in the desert is water. It was one of the beautiful things about those trips: spoiled middleclass kids suddenly having to think about water.

You mean they actually thought about water???
I thought they would have been lookin out for pepsi trees and burger birds.;)

Yeah it is stating the obvious to say that water is the primary issue in the desert....
but,
I don't mean to hammer the point, but it is a lot drier here, across a much larger area of land, than in a lot of other places. Help and options are few and far between.
In the proper outback, water cannot be overemphasized.

and yeah,
we are in agreement.

[hansp77]

The thing that scares me about the "wilderness" or in fact, anywhere away from houses, roads, etc. is the possibility of running into some nutcase with a gun and a chip on his shoulder. And I do mean nutcase, not just your average guy.

Carefull Tristan,
too much thinking along those lines of thought....

before you know it, you will be hiding out in the wilderness, a total nutcase, a chip on your shoulder, with a BIG gun in your hand...:D

[Tristan]

Carefull Tristan,
too much thinking along those lines of thought....

before you know it, you will be hiding out in the wilderness, a total nutcase, a chip on your shoulder, with a BIG gun in your hand...:D

I think I worked in prisons and facilities for the criminally insane too long. I've worked with people who killed their entire families and half the local comminity. I've worked with people who killed kids for fun. I know what the extreem nut-case can do.:rolleyes:

[JimD]

There is nothing that touches the soul and serves humankind quite the way wild places do. It will be an immeasurable loss when the last one is finally gone.

[pcford]

I'm planning on renting a satphone for my trip into the Chugach Mountians in two weeks. Depending on the plan, and how many minutes I have, I'll probably call the family and let them know I'm doing okay.



Heh. Two week trip into the Alaska bush and you need a satellite phone. Quite the wilderness lifestyle. pffffft.

My father was thinking about getting a satellite phone for his place. (off the grid, no phone.) Too expensive.

[ishmael]

Tristan,

I'd only advise not to take the hype too seriously. You're much more likely to be shot dead in downtown Tampa than when hiking the Appalacian Trail.

The media is feeding our nuttyness. Because they focus on the vibrant cases, because that sells.

Are you going to meet an occasional nut with a gun out on the trail? Very, very rarely. Yeah, it happens, but most of the nuts are too lazy to get out there.

[BrianW]

Heh. Two week trip into the Alaska bush and you need a satellite phone. Quite the wilderness lifestyle. pffffft.

My father was thinking about getting a satellite phone for his place. (off the grid, no phone.) Too expensive.

It's one of those things that's not for me, but for my wife. In no way does it help me, in fact it adds weight.

My last solo trip was shortened by an overnight storm that was pushing the tent down on top of me most the night, and from multiple directions. Woke up to a light snow, which made climbing safely impossible even with instep crampons. Here's the 'day before and morning after' pictures...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/hunting/fdcd4aca.jpg

I'll be renting an Iridium for $75 a week. That's cheap insurance. Having played in the SAR game, I know it saves lives and taxpayer money.

Oh, I'm only going for 1 week. I get very bored talking to myself after a few days. :)

[Sailman58]

The means of communication has always been there, it is just more available now. Before the cell phone you had to get an amateur radio license and learn code. There are numerous accounts of folks talking with home built equipment that only weighed a couple of ounces.

Ron

[skuthorp]

Unless you are willing and allowed to eschew rescue efforts, carrying an Eperb may save a rescuers life as well as your own, let alone expense. Recently a man lost signalled to a helicopter with his glowing mobile display panel. I have always carried whistle, flares, and a big red X on xc trips over the last 40 years. Now I carry an eperb, but not this year, NO SNOW. Cold enough but NO RAIN. Won't be a year for buswalking either, TO DRY and fires. Some canoe touring though with 2
lifejackets in case you find a friend out there.