Living without a car

[ishmael]

The bicycle thread, and others, got me thinking.

I would love to live in a tiny apartment in some city where I could walk to market and ride a bus if I needed something else. Need a car, rent a car.

The American experiment in exurbia, with people needing a car to commute, seems just that, an experiment that worked for a few years but now is failing.

Pause for thought: I think some residents of St. Louis are still without electricity. This is two weeks into it. The infrastructure of today's cities is a bit fragile. But living as I do on the outskirts of a minor city is fragile too. However, if the power went down for weeks I'd still get water. All I'd have to do is lower a can on a string down the wellhead. LOL.

[huisjen]

go for it.

[martin schulz]

The infrastructure of today's cities is a bit fragile. But living as I do on the outskirts of a minor city is fragile too.

Is it? Haven't noticed it yet.
But when Germany decided to switch from state-owned electricity to private owned electricity (capitalist model) we all found out that private owned electric power companies cut down on personal for higher financial gain (big surprise) and attending the infrastructure was neglected. That led to large electricity fallouts last winter, when power poles broke down because of snow weight and the electric power companies didn't have the personel to get that fixed. Again the state had to jump in.

I honestly believe that infrastructure such as electricity, water supply, streets and railways, heat...should be owned by the state, because in the end private owners will be unscrupulous and will sacrifice public needs for financial gains or to satisfy their equity holders.

[Milo Christensen]

I would love to live in a tiny apartment in some city where I could walk to market and ride a bus if I needed something else. Need a car, rent a car.

There's this guy in Seattle with a tiny apartment, a tiny car, even a tiny dog.

[Gonzalo]

I honestly believe that infrastructure such as electricity, water supply, streets and railways, heat...should be owned by the state, because in the end private owners will be unscrupulous and will sacrifice public needs for financial gains or to satisfy their equity holders. The way we do it in the US is that power companies (most places) are private companies regulated as monopolies. This means that their profits and performance are overseen by a state public utilities board. The board is supposed to hold the rates down to ensure a modest profit and to require a certain level of service, which includes rapid recoveries from outages. In the short term it works pretty well, because the companies have both regulatory and revenue incentives to recover quickly from outages, so they borrow personnel from other companies to fix storm damage, and so on.

We've had major outages from storm damage, and crews are on the way from all over the south east even before the storms hit. Outages are fixed amazingly quickly, given the massive damage, even if a few days without power seems like roughing it.

In the long term, it does seem like the national grid is stretched to the point of fragility, as Jack says.

A few years ago it was popular to talk about de-regulating the power companies so they could do and charge what they want. Competition from other companies was supposed to keep them on the straight-and-narrow in the absence of regulation. There was considerable evidence of abuse of deregulated power systems in the few places that tried it, such as collusion between competitors and selling company assets for big short-term gains. Then there was the California debacle a few years back, where it was proven that deregulated energy traders engineered much or most of the power shortages. I notice no one is talking about deregulation any more, thank goodness.

[martin schulz]

Thanks for the insight Gonzalo.

But wasn't there a major outake lately in NewYork because of too old power cables, transistor stations...?

The problem starts when those companies and state utility boards start to...well...fiddle a bit. A Hawai vacation here and a nice christmas present there and an underpaid official may be tempted ...err...to look the other way.

I may sound like a strong defender of socialism, but I don't think everything should be free enterprise.

[brad9798]

I think it's a great idea ... check out www.newtownatstcharles.com for your 'new' American Dream, Ish.

BTW- yes, still a couple thou w/out power STILL!

[Wild Dingo]

Well with fuel prices now riding at $1.40+ a litre here... thats $5.60+ per US gallon... Im pretty much without a car just now as when I last fueled the F100 it set me back $110... so now we just use Jos little peice of japcrap which sets us back $50+ to fill... and with the polititans and fuel companies using everything from the banana shortage in Queensland (due to a cyclone) to mortguage rate increases to justify yet ever more increases (expected to be at the 2.00 a litre mark by December) its not going to be long before we sit that one down as well... and heres me with a bung knee too! so not much walkin for this wee black duck or drivin either :o

ooh interestingly enough I learnt the other day that our own Carnarvon bananas are now selling for $1.00 per kilo in New Zealand and when I checked at the supermarket we pay $12.00 per kilo for... Carnarvon bananas!! out own state produced produce and we pay through the roof for it while those pesky sheep chuckin Kiwis get them for $1... the worlds gone totally troppo I say!! :(

mmm gotta buy me a camel or two an plant some fruit an vegies and become a hippyyippeeyaya again ;) and here I thought Id grown outta that lifestyle years ago and the polititians and fuel companies are forcing me back to it? aint that amazing! ;) oooh do remind me to thank them will you! :cool:

[Tom Montgomery]

I think it's a great idea ... check out www.newtownatstcharles.com for your 'new' American Dream, Ish.
Tree lined streets for walking and biking.... my favorite coffee house right around the corner.... the vendor at the Saturday morning farmer's market knows my name.... grocery, shops, restaurants within a short walk from my door....

It sounds like MY home! Yeah, I'm gloating. :D

[Gonzalo]

...But wasn't there a major outake lately in NewYork because of too old power cables, transistor stations...? After the power failure a couple of years ago there was for a while a lot of concern about how old and inadequate parts of the grid are. That concern has died off or at least gone underground. I am inclined to think that most power regulation is bystate untility commissions, so interstate power transport might fall into a regulatory hole. (The preceeding is almost pure speculation.) There are definately signs of stress in the national grid.

I really didn't mean to extol the perfection of private utilities ownership as much as just to show that regulated private companies provide one alternative to government ownership. I don't know enough about it to discuss the relative merits of private vs. public ownership. I am far from being an advocate of totally free markets. There are probably some things government does better than private industry. Still, regulated private industries can and do provide good service and profits at the same time.

Edited to add: I work in an industry that is both regulated and competitive--telephone switching. Telephone companies have strong incentives to provide uninterrupted service, but they are also driven by competition to always invest in the next new thing. I know from experience that the phone companies require strong proof of reliability before they'll put a new switch in service. That comes as much from quality of service regulations as from the profit motive.

[JimM]

Gonzola

I work for a public owned utility. Out here in the western states you only find invester owned utilities in or near the big cities. Public Utilities were voted in by the people of our comunities because the large invester owned utilities didn't want to provide service outside the populated urban areas. I have friends that didn't get electrical service on their farm until about 1960 because the utility didn't want to spend the money to build a line to their home.

The public utility I work for has nearly the lowest power rate in the country. There isn't a invester owned utility that comes close to matching our power rate. In addition our Board of Commisioners are responsable to our customer/owners not invester looking for a dividend.:D

[JimD]

Rent a car? You don't have to do that very many times before you've spent the cost of owning a beater full time.

[paladin]

Well over half my life I have not owned a car....and if it wasn't fer this damn heart attack and the need for transportation I wouldn't own one now...consider cost of car/maintenance/insurance/gas etc.....I sold a 4700 square foot house...with a 3 car garage, a 1200 sq. foot workshop.....and 5 acres of lawn for a small townhouse with now lawn maintenance (farmed out) and minimum utilities...all the fancy cars and other toys...(except floating toys)...and a helluva lot happier....

[George Roberts]

While living in the city and not having a car seem appealing, they are not cost effective except in a very few places.

As soon as the corner market closes up - it gets difficult to buy food.

The first time you need to rent a car on short notice and they don't have one - you starts to look for a car to purchase.

I am sure that when I was young and in college I could have done without a car, but it gets so difficult in the real world.

[geeman]

At this point in my life I would prefer to live closer to work,but not in town.Its just too noisey ,stresses me out having to deal with tourists when I'm not working.However ,there isnt any housing of any sort closer then we are now,so its 20 miles to work and twenty miles back 5 days a week.

[TomF]

It should be easy for me - I walk 5 minutes to work. Farmer's market 1/2 block away, grocery store 5 minutes walk in another direction.

The killer is the kids' activities. We've gone round and round on this, but simply can't figure how to keep all 3 in their various activities, overlapping times and relatively distant places, in a town with a barely adequate public transit system. Once the kids are gone, I suspect we'll either sell the car, or keep it mostly parked.

t.

[GregW]

I've only had one car, and that was over 20 yrs ago. The advantage of living in a place like downtown Toronto, like I do, is that everything is near by. Within a 20-45 walk from my front door, is pratically everything anyone could possibly want, Lee Valley even opened a store a pleasant 30 minute walk away from me.
As for owning a "beater" car, you still pay insurance on the damn thing, ain't worth it.
If I need a car I rent, there are plenty of car rental agencies downtown...there is always something available.,

[paladin]

In this heat it's bad fer me....I have 2 bicycles from the boat...stainless steel Hons...for one I have a little "Velo-Solex" type drive motor......but it wears out the front wheel/tire in short order....I have been thinking of a little "tricycle" with an electric drive that has a 60+ mile range with one charge.....boat yard is 1 1/2 miles away...1/4 mile to groceries etc here at the beach.....If I drive less than 750 miles a month the insurance drops like crazy....I get 28+ miles to the gallon in the Regal.....with air conditioning....dawg will ride in a sidecar so she would have to get accustomed to a bicycle.....just a thought....It was not exactly cheap going off sailing with all kinds of auto hardware stored away......

[Evan Showell]

Lived in NYC for 8 yrs. For 3 in grad school I had no car. Didn't miss one. Subsequently shared ownerhsip of a car (in the 'burbs) with a family member who used same to commute to work during the week and I had access to it on weekends if needed. Costs were shared. It was a nice arrangement.

[Gonzalo]

Jim M,

Even in the east, there are a patchwork of small electrical co-ops, and even some municipally-owned utilities. In North Carolina these are all pretty small and by reputation very expensive due to the small customer base to distribute infrastructure costs. I didn't know there were any large publicly-owned utilities. (Wasn't there one in Montana that was vertically integrated from the coal mines up that got privatized and dismembered? I remember hearing that it was very cheap and efficient.)

Just out of curiosity, what do you pay for power? Progress Energy charges us $.08054/kWh in winter and $.09054/kWh in summer.

[LeeG]

I would like a trailer in Maine

[Meerkat]

I thought you were going to get a motorscooter, Paladin?

Here in Seattle, and some other western cities too, we have "FlexCar." The cars, mostly Hondas, are strategically parked around town, often in supermarket parking lots. Once signed up and issued your remote access card, you simply make a reservation, walk up to a FlexCar, gain access and then you use it as much as you need it. Once done, you park it either where you found it or at some other designated parking spot. From what I've heard, people who use it like it a lot.

I guess it helps that Seattle has a nearly adequate public transportation system. It's getting better too: in a year or 2, you'll be able to take a light rail from downtown to the airport. I hope/expect it's success will foster additional expansion.

[brad9798]

Mine too, Tom M. ;)

Down to the Ice Cream shop ... library, dry cleaners, dentist, etc.! :)

[paladin]

Meer..I dunno wanna get dizzy and fall over...with a trike I can stop and not fall over:D :D
I done writ ya a private e-mail.....kanna sent ya some cd's without a snail mail address....:mad:

[Meerkat]

Yeah bro - sorry, I'm slow. Between the waiting for the chemo results and now the vicodin and oxycodone, I've been a little distracted. I'll reply to all today.

I figure I'm very soon going to be in a motorized wheelchair. Sigh.

[paladin]

gitcher motorized wheelchair......I had one.....the motors are usually 24 volts but they run them on 12 volt batteries....get a second battery and a jumper and wire the batteries in series....
Ya gotta take off slo or you can strip the damn gears in the transmission (they are usually plastic) and at 24 volts you can do really nice wheelies.....or so I have heard....;)