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Ed Nye
05-08-2002, 10:38 AM
In my quest for knowledge (that sounds nice and lofty), I have had a very interesting and helpful exchange of information with a Mr. Scott Townsend. He is the Market Coordinator for Interlux Yacht Finishes. His e-mail address indicates he resides in the UK.
The reason for all of this is that I have stripped all previous coatings off Opal's teak, actually off the topsides, cockpit, house and teak. On the house and cockpit I have reapplied an epoxy filler coat to the original glass/glass overlay. All this in preparation for spiffy new paint. This is Her first refit since 1991.
But the teak, I hate the idea of varnish on a boat that actually gets used. Except for a very few details like the tiller, transom, rudder head, cutwater (it gets washed off there in short order) and bowsprit I have not used it on Opal. I had followed the exchange on the forum about Cetol with a lot of interest and had added it to my list of possibilities. So………. I contacted Mr. Townsend for additional information. I have pasted the e-mail interchange for your information. Of course, like all e-mail threads you have to start at the end to make sense of it:

"Thank You, I really appreciate your help, Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Townsend, Scott [mailto:Scott.Townsend@uk.akzonobel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:55 AM
To: 'Nye, Edward B'
Subject: RE: Color

Ed,

It is definitely an option. However, the main problem with this method is that eventually the coats under the new fresh varnish will age and crack. When this happens the entire system will have to be removed. I would estimate that this system will last you around 5-7 years with periodic maintenance, meaning a new coat of Cetol Gloss. The other system I suggested will most likely last you over 10 years when properly cared for.

Regards,

Scott Townsend

-----Original Message-----
From: Nye, Edward B [mailto:Edward.Nye@F22.Boeing.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 11:52 AM
To: 'Townsend, Scott'
Subject: RE: Color

Scott, Can you just scuff, wash and apply maintenance coats of Cetol Gloss? Similar to Deks #2? Ed

-----Original Message-----
From: Townsend, Scott [mailto:Scott.Townsend@uk.akzonobel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:34 AM
To: 'Nye, Edward B'
Subject: RE: Color

Ed,

Here is my two cents on your best alternatives. Cetol Marine is definitely out in your option; you don't care for the color. End of story!!! The next best alternative is to use the Cetol Marine Light; the product does not have the same orange tone to it. What is nice is that you can apply a coat of Cetol Gloss onto of the Cetol Marine Light and attain the same look as a varnish but with much better durability. Varnishes do not allow the wood to breath when applied directly to the substrate. A great alternative is to use Cetol Marine Light, which allows the wood and it pores to breath. Then after a nice base of two coats are applied follow up with Cetol Gloss, a varnish with excellent gloss. The benefit is that you will not have a mildew problem in the future like you would with just Cetol Marine Light, second you will not have the same chipping and cracking that you would ordinarily have with a varnish.

A second option for you:

The second option is to use Perfection Varnish. Perfection Varnish is a two-part polyurethane. In this sense, it is like apply a true polyurethane paint system to the substrate. It is pretty much impenetrable. Usually we suggest applying one coat thinned 15% and then one full strength coat. Then follow up with an Interlux Varnish, most likely Schooner 96, 3-4 coats will give you an amazing finish. The benefit to this system is that Perfection Varnish will not chip crack fade or dull in a year or two like tradition varnishes. The maintence on this system only involves applying one new coat of varnish every year or two. To do this, you do not ever need to strip to system again. Merely, scuff up the existing varnish with a Scotch rite pad, remove any grease or oil with a cleaning thinner, and then apply one fresh coat onto.

The second option is most definitely lower maintenance, but the system will take a bit longer to apply at first. If you would like further information on this, please contact me at Interlux Yacht Finishes. My direct line is 908 964 2213.

Regards,

Scott Townsend
Market Coordinator
Interlux Yacht Finishes

-----Original Message-----
From: Nye, Edward B [mailto:Edward.Nye@F22.Boeing.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 11:20 AM
To: 'Townsend, Scott'
Subject: RE: Color
Importance: High

Scott,
Thanks for your reply. I have a small Ted Brewer ketch that I display at many of the PNW boat shows. Lake Union, Port Townsend, etc. The house, cockpit, hatches, toe rails and guards are teak. And not the bland stuff you see in the little stuff you can buy at West Marine. It is the fill figured, dark grained heavy stuff. I am in the process of a complete exterior refit. Just about everything but the bottom is being wooded and all is being refinished.
I am not a great fan of varnish, especially the bright shiny type. I have successfully or unsuccessfully avoided it (except for the transom, bowsprit, and tiller) for almost 15 years. But, during this period I have almost become convinced that varnish would be easier to maintain than the alternatives. I tried Cetol marine about ten years ago and I'll tell you, that orange sitting on top of that dark teak looked bad, real bad. I still don't want varnish, and oil doesn't work up here, turns the damnedest black you ever saw. Natural looks good until the mildew gets to it. She is marina kept so you can't use that crap to wash her down and there is only so much teak to wash/clean away. So what am I to do, your Cetol product has one heck of a good reputation for doing what is says it will do, but orange!!! West Marine has a knockoff that is a mud brown color I've been told, just what I need mud brown. I wish you had a color chart or something to compare it to. I hate to take the time and expense finish raw teak lumber to test it.

Sorry for the rant, just the price I pay for having a boat up here where the sun doesn't shine and it's wet all the time. And, I guess you pay for having your name on the Web. Again thanks for your quick reply to my question,
Ed Nye,
SV OPAL

-----Original Message-----
From: Townsend, Scott [mailto:Scott.Townsend@uk.akzonobel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 5:34 AM
To: 'Nye, Edward B'
Subject: RE: Color

Ed,

Cetol Marine Light is a light teak color. The difference between the Cetol marine and the Cetol marine light is that the Cetol marine has a slight orange tint to it. This tint is a property of the chemicals to make the product. Many people did not like the orange tint, therefore Sikkens developed a new product, Cetol Marine Light that did not have nearly as much orange tint. The product is slightly lighter, but does not compare to a light ash stain that you might be familiar with in the housing market.

If you have any other questions, please do not hesitate to ask.

Regards,

Scott Townsend
Market Coordinator
Interlux Yacht Finishes

-----Original Message-----
From: Nye, Edward B [mailto:Edward.Nye@F22.Boeing.com]
Sent: Monday, May 06, 2002 6:24 PM
To: 'scott.townsend@uk.akzonobel.com'
Subject: Color

What color is the Cetol Marine Light?
Thanks, Ed"

A bit of additional information, I got a quart of the "Light" yesterday and last night took a nice piece of teak lumber (kind of expensive for this sort of foolishness) and started doing tests using the candidate coatings (plain Cetol light, cpes and varnish, cpes and Cetol light, Cetol light and varnish, and a couple of others. So far I've just got started, but I can tell you one thing, I can't see a bit of orange in the Cetol Light.
Ed

Scott Rosen
05-08-2002, 11:20 AM
Ed,

Don't take this the wrong way. I have nothing against whatever you want to use on your boat, especially since you've put the effort in to researching the products.

But I'm gonna strangle the next person who talks about breathing wood. For god's sake, wood doesn't breath. It's dead. Inanimate. Lifeless. No lungs. No respiration. Does anyone really think that 12 coats of spar varnish lets wood breath?!

One of the reasons you put a finish on the wood is precisely to slow down the process of moisture exchange between the wood and its environment. The most durable finish you can apply to wood is also the least breathable. LPU over epoxy. You seal the wood with epoxy, then prime and paint with a two-part LPU. That finish can last 10 years in full exposure to the elements without any maintenance other than washing. It's not a waterproof finish, but it slows the exchange of moisture drastically. In the terms of the Interlux expert, such a finish "doesn't breath."

You have to choose the finish carefully to match the conditions.

End of rant.

[ 05-08-2002, 12:22 PM: Message edited by: Scott Rosen ]

John of Phoenix
05-08-2002, 12:44 PM
and oil doesn't work up here, turns the damnedest black you ever saw. A few years ago, a friend talked me into using tung oil and turp to finish some beautiful teak patio furniture. In six months it looked like it had been dipped in tar! :mad: I took a power washer to it and refinished with WATCO teak oil finish (http://www.varathane.com/products/wat_tof.html). About $9 a qt at Home Depot/Lowes.

I'll grant you that Phoenix and Port Townsend are at opposite ends of the weather spectrum, but if it can take our heat and sun (and polution), it might be worth asking around if anyone has had any experience with it. It's a snap to apply (man, don't we love that!) and it looks great. It's a rich natural teak without a high gloss finish which hides the dings and is easy on the eyes. It does require an annual touch up, but isn't that the legacy of varnish?

When we kept a Chris-Craft Commander in San Diego (a little more like your climate), we treated the teak decks with a water based finish that worked quite well. It was a milky looking stuff with a bit of an ammonia smell to it. I looked at the West Marine site, but couldn't find it and I can't remember the name. It was very easy to apply, dried quickly, but lasted only a season at most. You might ask the locals if it rings any bells.

Ah yes, the joys of brightwork. Good luck.