34 Youths Among 56 Dead in Israeli Strike

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/34-youths-among-56-dead-in-israeli/20060728045409990004?ncid=NWS00010000000001

34 Youths Among 56 Dead in Israeli Strike
By KATHY GANNON, AP

QANA, Lebanon (July 30) - At least 56 people, more than half children, were killed Sunday in an Israeli airstrike that crushed a building, the deadliest attack of the campaign against Hezbollah. U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice decided to return early to Washington with her diplomatic mission derailed after Lebanese leaders told her not to come.


The missiles struck just after 1 a.m., leveling a three-story building in Qana where two extended families, the Shalhoubs and Hashims, had taken refuge in the basement from heavy Israeli bombardment in the area. Throughout the day, rescue workers dug through the rubble, lifting out bodies dressed in colorful clothes of women and children. At one point they found a single room with 18 bodies, police said.

"Why are they killing us? What have we done?" screamed Khalil Shalhoub, who was helping pull out the dead until he saw his brother's body taken out on a stretcher. The dead included at least 34 children and 12 adult women, security officials said.

[George.]

Qana - where the Israelis killed over one hundred civilians and four UN observers, ten years ago. Now, for some reason, they were "allowing" Hezbollah to operate near the town.

Round and round...

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Don't cut your wrists over this incident just yet.
The Israeli ambassador to the U.N. says they have film of a rocket lancher being set up near that building and are planning to release the picture.
I'm not going to vouch for their claims but, I know for certain that the Israelis where deploying drones with cameras years before the US and there is no reason to believe that they don't have real-time pictures eminating from a fleet of drones at the moment.
Also, Richard Engle (NBC) did live coverage from the site of that bombing. He said one rescuer he interviewed was wearing Hezbollah tattoos and he saw Hezbollah flags planted all around the area of the carnage. That doesn't proove a lot but if this place wasn't a Hezbollah stronghold what was the reason for the flags?

Charlie

[Kim Whitmyre]

The Israeli ambassador to the U.N. says they have film of a rocket lancher being set up near that building and are planning to release the picture.
Charlie

Yeah, and my dick reaches to the floor...:rolleyes: Want a picture of it?:D

[George.]

The Israeli ambassador to the U.N. says they have film of a rocket lancher being set up near that building


Would that be like the pictures Colin Powell showed at the UN of those trucks, or more like the little glass vial of white powder he waved around?



...Hezbollah flags planted all around the area of the carnage.

Cause or effect?

Anyway, we have pictures of drug gangsters shooting cops out of Rio slums. So the Rio police (:rolleyes:) would be justified in bombing said slums. Is that what you mean?

[George.]

Now, why would anyone at Qana support Hezbollah?


The Qana shelling took place on April 18, 1996 in Qana, a village located southeast of Tyre, Lebanon. Amid heavy fighting between the Israeli Defense Forces and Hezbollah during "Operation Grapes of Wrath", a Fijian UNIFIL compound in the village was shelled by Israeli artillery. Around 800 Lebanese civilians had taken refuge there to escape the fighting, of whom 106 were killed and around 116 others injured. Four UNIFIL soldiers were also seriously injured.
...
The U.N. appointed military advisor Major-General Franklin van Kappen of the Netherlands to investigate the incident. His conclusions were:

(a) The distribution of impacts at Qana shows two distinct concentrations, whose mean points of impact are about 140 metres apart. If the guns were converged, as stated by the Israeli forces, there should have been only one main point of impact.
(b) The pattern of impacts is inconsistent with a normal overshooting of the declared target (the mortar site) by a few rounds, as suggested by the Israeli forces.

(c) During the shelling, there was a perceptible shift in the weight of fire from the mortar site to the United Nations compound.

(d) The distribution of point impact detonations and air bursts makes it improbable that impact fuses and proximity fuses were employed in random order, as stated by the Israeli forces.

(e) There were no impacts in the second target area which the Israeli forces claim to have shelled.

(f) Contrary to repeated denials, two Israeli helicopters and a remotely piloted vehicle were present in the Qana area at the time of the shelling.

While the possibility cannot be ruled out completely, it is unlikely that the shelling of the United Nations compound was the result of gross technical and/or procedural errors.[16]


Amnesty International conducted an on-site investigation of the incident in collaboration with military experts, using interviews with UNIFIL staff and civilians in the compound, and posing questions to the IDF, who did not reply. Amnesty concluded, "the IDF intentionally attacked the UN compound, although the motives for doing so remain unclear. The IDF have failed to substantiate their claim that the attack was a mistake. Even if they were to do so they would still bear responsibility for killing so many civilians by taking the risk to launch an attack so close to the UN compound."[17]

Human Rights Watch concurred, "The decision of those who planned the attack to choose a mix of high-explosive artillery shells that included deadly anti-personnel shells designed to maximize injuries on the ground -- and the sustained firing of such shells, without warning, in close proximity to a large concentration of civilians -- violated a key principle of international humanitarian law."


1996. I wonder how many eight-year-old kids lived through that, and are eighteen-year-old Hezbollah recruits now. I wonder how many will be in ten years. I wonder why the Israelis can't figure all this out.

[George.]

April 18 is held as an anniversary to commemorate the victims of the bombardment. At other times, Hezbollah has used this event to arouse ill will toward Israel and the United States, prominently marching after the relatives of the victims, or making inflammatory speeches at the event.

Get it? You are acting to their script.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The discursive value of this thread is about zero.
Why don't you just establish up front that only those who get their info straight from God are invited?
Personally, I take great comfort in the knowledge that the best counters to my arguments you folks could come up with are some hastely thought out one-line ripostes.
I'm gonna' stop pretending this is the Oxford Forum.

[George.]

You call a detailed review of the 1996 bombing a "one-lien riposte?"

You call an analogy between alleged Hezbollah activity in Qana, and confirmed criminal gang activity in Rio slums, a one-line riposte?

Whatever, Charlie...

[George.]

Israel just announced that they will stop aerial bombing of civilians for 48 hours.

Long enough for CNN to change the subject, I suppose...

[JJBoatman]

How can anyone rationalize a conflict between a uniformed national army and an established militant force when the most casualties are women and children. Is it possible that humanity has lost its edge of right and wrong. No matter what your political thoughts or nationality what has happened to the basic moral integrity, shame on all who see otherwise.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

1996, you say? Rio slums? Battle of Trafalgar? The pusuit of the Nez Perce' by the US Cavalry? The drowning of the Teutonic Knights in Lake Ilmen?

[KNOCKABOUT]

How can anyone rationalize a conflict between a uniformed national army and an established militant force when the most casualties are women and children. Is it possible that humanity has lost its edge of right and wrong. No matter what your political thoughts or nationality what has happened to the basic moral integrity, shame on all who see otherwise.

Get used to it... You are witnessing and experiencing the future of warfare. More ugly and more barbaric than that which came before it... And the shame should fall squarely on the shoulders of Hezbollah.

[Donn]

Get used to it... You are witnessing and experiencing the future of warfare. More ugly and more barbaric than that which came before it...

You can't be serious. "More ugly and more barbaric" than mustard gas wafting through trenches, fire-bombing of cities and cities being nuked? Worse than "Gravity's Rainbow?"

[KNOCKABOUT]

You can't be serious. "More ugly and more barbaric" than mustard gas wafting through trenches, fire-bombing of cities and cities being nuked? Worse than "Gravity's Rainbow?"

Well no not worse than that... only worse in the sense you will know and hear about it, as these are priarily wars of public relations - and those that cant stomach it will puke all over the forum...

[garland reese]

This seems to be the truth of war in general. Wars of thousands of years ago (and even some of not too long ago) pretty much assumed the entire destruction of the "enemy" without much regard to the innocent, didn't it? Now we attempt diplomatic wars, but there just isn't much diplomacy in the purist sense of the word "war". Wars are begun and fought with the goal of victory, not compromise (that has seemed to be our own undoing in recent history). I suppose it is arguable weather or not these folks are at war. Both feel very strongly about their own ideals. Both, I assume, believe to be at war with the other. One man's ideal may certainly not be his neighbor's ideal.

Poor Ms. Rice; Must be uncomfortable riding that fence......

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Call me too civilized but it makes my stomach turn to hear that they killed 34 children. I think of that scene in Schindlers list when the only color image is the little girl in the red dress. Then she is thrown on the pile of the dead towards the end. I think of that when I read this :


rescue workers dug through the rubble, lifting out bodies dressed in colorful clothes of women and children.

Thats disgusting, the shame does not fall squarely on the shoulders of Hezbollah, in this case Israeli bombs killed those children. I'm not supporting Hezbollah or Israel. I'm just not supporting killing children.

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization, but Israel actions in bombing innocent children are a terrorist act. I'm sorry there is NO excuse to kill little kids. I can not support that kind of action in any form, no matter how barbaric war has become.

Makes me sick to death. Over what 2 or 3 Israeli soldiers were captured ? So they kill thousands and invade and then kill children????

I don't know about you but if I was a peaceful non involved Lebanese and my kid was blown up I would jump on the nearest Israeli tank and take out as many as I could.

[Meerkat]

You have to wonder why they bombed the milk factory too.

[Paul Girouard]

Makes me sick to death. Over what 2 or 3 Israeli soldiers were captured ?



Hezbollah killed 7 or 8 IDF soldiers when they captured the 2 northern dudes. Hamas killed two:

They said the attack, in which two IDF soldiers were killed and one captured and brought into the Gaza Strip, was designed to torpedo any agreement between Fatah and Hamas on a controversial document drafted by some Palestinian prisoners held in Israeli jails.

Link : http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885848088&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

8 soldiers killed, 2 snatched in Hezbollah border attacks

Link : http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/737634.html

MTL they also are now dead. One should think twice before crossing the Israeli border then taking and killing IDF personnel. Little comfort for the average "Joe blow" Lebanese citizen:(

[Paul Girouard]

You have to wonder why they bombed the milk factory too.

Maybe they where impressed when Clinton did it. Or should I say had it done:rolleyes:

[Don Olney]

Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )
in this case Israeli bombs killed those children.



No. Those are American bombs dropped by Israelis flying American airplanes. Your tax dollars at work.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

The Israelis have all the latest bombs. Way cool. It makes sure those little raghead bastards don't grow up to be terrists.

That must the reason Ricearoni doesn't want a ceasefire. Must be

[LeeG]

Rice gets her war. Maybe Bolton and Kristol get Iran.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Well that was a fast 48 hrs :rolleyes:

Updated: 07:08 AM EDT

Israeli Air Force Strikes Southern Lebanon
By THOMAS WAGNER and KATHY GANNO, AP

JERUSALEM (July 31) - The Israeli air force carried out strikes Monday in southern Lebanon despite an agreement to halt raids for 48 hours after nearly 60 Lebanese civilians were killed in an Israeli bombing, the army said.

http://articles.news.aol.com/news/_a/israeli-air-force-strikes-southern/20060728045409990004?ncid=NWS00010000000001

[KNOCKABOUT]

There is no bigger scoundrel than one who breaks his word...

[LeeG]

Does this administration have any respect in the world?

Rice asks "what's this?",,bitch, it's your opportunity to transform the middle east.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/30/AR2006073000129_pf.html

Rice did not learn of the attack until midmorning, during one-on-one talks with Israeli Defense Minister Amir Peretz in a meeting room on the 10th floor of Jerusalem's David Citadel Hotel. She was "reiterating our strong concern" about civilians killed during the hostilities, she said later. But Peretz did not mention the attack, nor had Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni over breakfast.

Rice found out via e-mail. It came from the U.S. Embassy in Beirut. Assistant Secretary of State C. David Welch got the message and interrupted the meeting to tell her, U.S. officials said.

Rice was "sickened" by the report, a close aide said. "What is this?" she asked Peretz.

...

But Rice also denied that the United States bore any responsibility for not demanding an immediate cease-fire when most European and Arab allies did so several days ago. The administration, she said, was working harder than any other party to stop the violence. "We are making real progress on a political framework and believe the parties are coming together on this aspect," she told reporters. "We are already doing really what is at the human limitation to try to get to an end of this conflict."

What she did not yet say was that she was abandoning her diplomatic mission in the region -- and going home Monday. Just after 3 p.m., reporters traveling with Rice were told she would give a brief statement Monday morning and then they would all leave.

[Rick Starr]

140 rockets launched by hezbollah into israel, yet israel gets the blame because their rockets hit what they aim at and hezbollah gets the admiration of the press because they riot and attack the un headquarters (wait a minute, I can't fault them there--the un has spent 28 years there to prevent this sort of thing.)

From Wikipedia...


United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon

The United Nations Interim Force In Lebanon, or UNIFIL, was created by the United Nations, with the adoption of Security Council Resolution 425 and 426 on 19 March 1978, to confirm Israeli withdrawal from Lebanon (following its incursion a few days earlier in Operation Litani), restore the international peace and security, and help the Lebanese Government restore its effective authority in the area. The first UNIFIL troops arrived in the area on 23 March 1978; these troops were reassigned from other UN peacekeeping operations in the area (namely UNEF and UNDOF).

When Israel invaded Lebanon again in 1982 (1982 Lebanon War), U.N. positions were overrun. During the occupation, UNIFIL’s function was mainly the provision of food and aid to locals in Southern Lebanon. Beginning in 1985, Israel scaled back its permanent positions in Lebanon, although this process was punctuated by brief invasions and bombings, as in the 1993 Operation Accountability and the 1996 Operation Grapes of Wrath. In 1999, it undertook a full withdrawal, which concluded in 2000 and enabled UNIFIL to resume its military tasks. The Syrian and Lebanese governments claim that the Shebaa Farms area, which Israel and others in the international community view as part of the occupied Golan Heights, is Lebanese territory. They contend that this dispute gives continued legal sanction to armed anti-Israeli groups in Lebanon (though the UN has officially certified that Israel has fully withdrawn from all areas it occupied after 1973). At the request of the country of Lebanon in January 2006, the UN extended UNIFIL’s mandate to expire July 31, 2006.

Mandate

UNIFIL is tasked with achieving the following objectives:

* Confirm the withdrawal of Israeli forces from southern Lebanon;
* Restore international peace and security;
* Assist the Government of Lebanon in ensuring the return of its effective authority in the area.

Additionally, the 2006 mandate extension required assisting the Lebanese government in establishing a "monopoly" on military action, adding impetus to disarm Hizbullah guerillas.

Current operation

UNIFIL is currently primarily deployed along the U.N. drawn Blue Line dividing Israel (and the Israeli Golan Heights) and southern Lebanon. Its activities have centred around monitoring military activity between Hezbollah and the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) with the aim of reducing tensions and allaying continuing low-level armed conflict. UNIFIL has also played an important role in clearing landmines, assisting displaced persons, and providing humanitarian assistance in this underdeveloped region…

Troop Status

UNIFIL currently (30 April 2006) employs 1991 soldiers, some 50 UNTSO observers and 390 civilians. The force includes troops from China, France, Ghana, India, Ireland, Italy and Poland. Its annual budget is about US$100 million. UNIFIL is led by French Major General Alain Pellegrini, formerly French military attache in Beirut and head of the mideast division of the French military intelligence.

[martin schulz]

Can anyone here tell me why it is so hard for the US to condemn this horrible air raid in Qana in the Security Council declaration?

I mean nobody asked from the US to cut its ties to Israel. All that was asked for was a unified declaration that condemned this particular attack.

But again the UN authority is weakened and when UN forces are sent down there they will be considered to be US/Israel puppet troops.

[LeeG]

Martin, because we cannot condemn anything Israel does.

next question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=565mx1Elq-U&search=lebanon

[Rick Starr]

No. Those are American bombs dropped by Israelis flying American airplanes. Your tax dollars at work.

...to defend themselves against a militia armed with missles from Iran purchased with money from oil revenues. Your gas dollars at work.

[LeeG]

Congress and the president advocate raising mpg standards 1.8mpg. Your gov't at work. It's hard work.

[martin schulz]

140 rockets launched by hezbollah into israel, yet israel gets the blame because their rockets hit what they aim at...

I thought it was a "mishap" that the UN building (there since...well you read the wikipedia article) was hit.


...and hezbollah gets the admiration of the press

Huh, I haven't noticed any admiration about the hezbollah activities.


...because they riot and attack the un headquarters.

The responsibility for the worldwide disregard of the UN lies partly with the UN but also with the way the US has been disregarding the UN. Now the UN Security Council is considered either a debating club or a US controlled organisation. No wonder they attack the UN headquarter after the US prevented the condemnation of the Israel attack on Qana.

And what makes things worse UN troops which shall secure the ceasefire will most probably regarded as US puppet troops.


"...the spirits that I called,
I can't get rid of anymore"

[Rick Starr]

Congress and the president advocate raising mpg standards 1.8mpg. Your gov't at work. It's hard work.

You know if you worked the angle that the auto(and related) industries and media outlets worked in tandem to flog vehicles that consumed ever larger amounts of resources both in manufacture and in operation, and that the government was complicit in this false 'economy' by, either willingly or by coercion, maintaining artificially, irresponsibly low mileage standards, I'd be behind that 100%.

[LeeG]

price for gasoline doesn't provide adequate inducement for customer to buy higher mpg cars. If the cost of maintaining military presence in the middle east was reflected at the pump we'd be buying $6/gal gas.

I keep going back to my nephews argument that the US doesn't have a natural motivation to conserve oil. If we use it up faster we ensure China or India have less access. If we use it up faster we ensure our economy will be dominant in a post petrol environment with access to natural resources in NorthAmerica.

[geeman]

Hezbolla is running and hiding among the civilain population,shooting rockets and then hiding in the buildings close to those apartments.The population isnt forcing the trucks out.

[martin schulz]

Hezbolla is running and hiding among the civilain population,shooting rockets and then hiding in the buildings close to those apartments.The population isnt forcing the trucks out.

Why should they Hezbollah has been their one and only help. You guys are constantly forgetting that Hezbollah is not only a militant group, but also a sunit social system.

And perhaps this historic review may also help in understanding the issue instead of clinging to cliché's



This is not the first time the Israelis have targeted Qana. In April 1996, Israeli shells killed more than 100 civilians seeking shelter at a U.N. peacekeeping position during a bombing campaign Israel dubbed "Grapes of Wrath."

That the root cause of the conflict needs to be addressed is an absolute fact. Ignore it and other skirmishes will erupt all around it. They teach you about tackling root causes on the first day of conflict resolution school.

So, yes, the Decider in Chief got this one right, except...

Except he is mistaken on one not so minor point. The president is somewhat confused as to what exactly the root cause of this conflict might be.

From day one of this conflict, now in its 20th day, President Bush has been saying that the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers and the killing of eight others by Hezbollah militiamen is what sparked this latest round of violence.

But if one is to examine the real root cause of this conflict with any depth, one needs to delve deeper into the recent history of the region. For example, one should ask why there is such animosity between Israel and Hezbollah in the first place.

The answer of course, is that Israel invaded Lebanon in 1982 to expel the Palestine Liberation Organization. Israel then held on to parts of south Lebanon for 18 years until Prime Minister Ehud Barak ordered the Israeli army out of south Lebanon. Hezbollah, who in the absence of the PLO and the Lebanese army assumed control of the area, is widely credited with forcing Israel to withdraw through its campaign of continued resistance and harassment of Israeli forces.

Israel's precipitated departure from the south of Lebanon in fact earned the Lebanese Shiite organization -- considered to be a terrorist group by the U.S. State Department and by Israel -- enormous clout among the Lebanese people, including Christians, a rarity in the heavily sectarian divided nation. It also won Hezbollah the respect and admiration of many young people throughout the Arab and Muslim worlds. This is particularly true in the West Bank and far more so in Gaza. The Palestinian resistance came to look at Hezbollah as the poster child of their revolution.

Hezbollah gave the Palestinians living in the occupied territories hope that if Hezbollah could do it -- that is, could force out the Israeli army -- then the Palestinians could do the same in the West Bank and in Gaza.

Israel never accepted that Hezbollah forced them out of south Lebanon, and in short, won the first hand in this new war. For Hezbollah this was a major victory. The word "major" should be capitalized, italicized, bolded and under-lined. Hezbollah, in 2000, managed to accomplish what the strongest of Arab armies have been unable to do in nearly six decades of war: resist Israel and claim major a victory.

Israel never forgot the feeling of humiliation the country -- and particularly its military -- experienced when a jubilant Hezbollah celebrated the Israeli army's departure.

But much as Hezbollah and the Israelis are at the forefront of this conflict, that is not the root cause of hostilities by any length of imagination. The root cause of the conflict was, and remains, the Israeli-Palestinian dispute. Solve it and you solve 90 percent of the region's problems. Ignore it and Secretary Rice and future secretaries of state will be shuttling back and forth to the Middle East for decades more to come.

Taken from United Press International

[LeeG]

Hizbullah IS the civilian population. Forcing Hizbullah out of Lebanon is like forcing the religious right out of the Republican Party.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Lieber Martin,
Hezbollah is an idealogically driven military organization. It lives on subsidies it gets from it's political patrons. What Hezbollah supplies is an endless stream of young people ready to die for whatever Hezbollah says is worth dying for.
Hezbollah is propelled by propaganda. They trumpet the least little advantage into a resounding victory. Hezbollah fighters are so idealogically driven they accept anything the organization tells them.
The world's newspapers said Israel ended it's occupation of Lebanon, long ago, because there were large political demonstrations in Israel demanding their army pull back. Hezbollah claimed they had driven the Israelis out. They have fed their soldiers that story ever since and it is believed implicitly. Hezbollah has prospered for more than 15 years because of the belief, by Hezbollah fighters, that their army administered a deafeat to Israel.
Anyone who seeks to get Hezbollah to negotiate has to make sure that they do not, inadvertantly, give Hezbollah anything that can strengthen Hezbollah's hand. The story that Israel killed a massive number of Hezbollah children is a powerful stimulus to get even. If outsiders take Hezbollah's side, now, Hezbollah will have another propaganda victory and will not be disposed to negotitate. Why should they negotiate if the world is coming around to their view that Israel is incarnate evil?

m.h.G.

Charlie

[Kim Whitmyre]

What all the Israeli apologists seem to forget, if they ever knew, is this:

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/hebrewmap-web.jpg

This is the Zionist aim. Historically, the way it works is Israel militarizes the bit of geography in question, then basically annexes the land after encouraging illegal settling of the "buffer zone." The naive Jews who aren't Zionists will pay the greatest price in the long run. For the Zionist state is like a constantly overextended credit card abuser: it has always lived beyond its means. Without the billions of dollars in aid from the U.S., it would have gone the way of all flesh years ago.

That is, unless it lived in harmony with its neighbors. Unfortunately, Zionism rules that out: see the map above.

[Rick Starr]

How refreshing to agree with Chuck.

Every effort is being made to paint this as Qana Two. Even to the point of theatrics. The public outcry the first time taught hezbollah the value of a sympathetic press.

[LeeG]

Rick, the press didn't create the killing or Hizbolla,,what kind of sympathy do you think the press generated with 9/11? The press is irrelevant, the events occured.
Look at how GW used 9/11. He's not the press.

[geeman]

Hezbolla is smart playing to the media,shoot a rocket ,run and hide hoping a return strike will hit and kill their own.Then scream because the site where they fired from is hit and civies are killed.Smart game playing ,,with their own peoples lives.The history of this conflict is well known,but it is history,they have to move forward,history is just that.

[LeeG]

Anyone who wants to project power over people will get smart with the use of the media.

Review Libby releasing flawed and classified intel to Judith Miller about Iraqis threat to the US a month before Congress looks at the info.

GW and Cheney give speeches to military forces with the appropriate responses and symbolism framing him like a halo.

The American Enterprise Institute and affinity businesses like the Benador group present disinformation as fact to Senate hearings defining the basis for pre-emptive war.

[Rick Starr]

EU referendum (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html)


EU Blog followup on green helmut guy (http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/who-is-this-man.html)

The Jerusalem post is saying it made a huge mistake....by delaying the analysis of the attack they created a PR disaster.

From the Israel Insider... Hezbollywood (http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm)

I don't mean to belittle the suffering of Lebanese, such as it is, but nor will I or should anyone else ignore what israel has had to contend with. As someone rightly pointed out, they’ve got no industry, they don’t invent anything and a century later they still need foreigners to get their damn oil out of the ground for them but one thing the Arab world appears able to create and manufacture in quantity is fake atrocities, starting all the way back at Dir Yassin in 1948 to Jennin to right now. And why not? It works every time…there’s no shortage of self-hating useful idiots in the West who are ready, no - make that happy, to believe them.

Addressing the UNs role in all this is a nice piece by Alan Dershowitz HERE (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0607250113jul25,0,1381784.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed) for those of you who still like a little balance to your daily opinion downloads.

[Stinkbug]

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/lgwalsh06.jpg

[Stinkbug]

http://www.afa.org/magazine/Feb2002/0202terror2.jpg

[pcford]

I don't mean to belittle the suffering of Lebanese, such as it is,<snips> As someone rightly pointed out, they’ve got no industry, they don’t invent anything and a century later they still need foreigners to get their damn oil out of the ground for them ......

Hmmm. Do you realize that you sound like a Southerner 100 years talking about a "darky." Pass the watermelon.


Addressing the UNs role in all this is a nice piece by Alan Dershowitz

Ah, yes Mr. Dershowitz, who believes in justice everywhere but the Middle East.

[Rick Starr]

Hmmm. Do you realize that you sound like a Southerner 100 years talking about a "darky." Pass the watermelon.



Ah, yes Mr. Dershowitz, who believes in justice everywhere but the Middle East.

Ahhh, yes, this from PCFORD, who decries bigotry everywhere except against israel.

What you sound like would have been irrelevant to me had I followed my initial impulse to add you to the ignore list several weeks ago when you posted and linked to all that antisemitic nonsense.

Oversight corrected.

[htom]

There are a lot of questions being asked about the deaths in that raid, the time of the collapse of the building, and the condition of the corpses being presented to the media, all of which I hope is the reason we're not officially commenting on it.

http://web.israelinsider.com/Articles/Diplomacy/8997.htm

[KNOCKABOUT]

http://www.ussliberty.org/g/lg/lgwalsh06.jpg

Ahh yes, the CIA's USS Liberty...

[LeeG]

I suppose it's possible that an organized and trained militia would want to carry 50 bodies down into a building while it's being bombed in order to plant a story.

One thing we've learned from Rumsfeld is that which is not impossible must be prepared for.

In this case the argument is that civilian deaths in one event under a certain number are acceptable and in aggragate tolerable but if they occur at once it's effective propoganda and less tolerable.

I guess you're right,,more people died on the highways than soldiers died in Iraq. We could afford to lose more.

Then again dropping bombs in civilian areas is likely to kill civilians. Unless you're using those special bombs whose blast wave and primary and secondary projectiles only hit terrists.

[KNOCKABOUT]

What all the Israeli apologists seem to forget, if they ever knew, is this:

http://www.alfredlilienthal.com/hebrewmap-web.jpg

This is the Zionist aim. Historically, the way it works is Israel militarizes the bit of geography in question, then basically annexes the land after encouraging illegal settling of the "buffer zone." The naive Jews who aren't Zionists will pay the greatest price in the long run. For the Zionist state is like a constantly overextended credit card abuser: it has always lived beyond its means. Without the billions of dollars in aid from the U.S., it would have gone the way of all flesh years ago.

That is, unless it lived in harmony with its neighbors. Unfortunately, Zionism rules that out: see the map above.

This is exactly the kind of nonsense that people like you get trapped into Kim. Would you like to know what the map is entitled, and from whence it came? Probably not as it seems you enjoy the convenience of the little bubble you live in. It is entitled "borders of the Masai - Conquest Boundaries of the Tribes." And that would be the tribes of Israel, circa 1200 BC as described in the first book of Deuteronomy.

[pcford]

Ahhh, yes, this from PCFORD, who decries bigotry everywhere except against israel.

What you sound like would have been irrelevant to me had I followed my initial impulse to add you to the ignore list several weeks ago when you posted and linked to all that antisemitic nonsense.

Oversight corrected.

Ah, yes. The voice of reason.

Mr. Starr, not approving of every move that the state of Israel makes is not the same as being antisemitic.

To be crystal clear here, when the western powers ignored the evidence of the horrible suffering of the Jewish people at the murderous hands of the Nazis, those western powers built up a debt to the Jewish people. While one might debate the wisdom of the establishment of the state of Israel in the middle east, and Jews did debate it while it was being considered a hundred years ago, it is now a fact.

One does not help the long range stability of Israel and the whole Middle East by going along with everything that the right-wing Likkud party proposes. Unfortunately, Bush has done just that. And now he reaps the whirlwind.

And finally sir, if to disagree with any action of the state of Israel, makes one an antisemite, then I must have a lot of company. Of course, that is not true. There are people _in Israel_ that disagree with the viciousness of the recent rulers of Israel. There are brave Israeli _soldiers_ that disagree and put themselves on the line because of their beliefs. There are of course Israelis that disagree with any move to make peace in the region. One of them shot Prime Minister Rabin in the back for that reason.

Blowing around accusations of antisemitism around does no good. It is below you sir.

Mr. Starr,
Jews, Christians, Moslems, Hindus and all other sects and religions want more or less the same thing for themselves and their children.
Extremists of every stripe make that difficult.

It's too bad you can't see that.

[PatCox]

You see, it was the fault of the French Resistance that the nazis retaliated by murdering civilians at random.

For the resistance engaged in asymetrical warfare;
for the resistance were irregulars who wore no uniforms;
for the resistance engaged in sabotage of public transport and other acts of terrorism;
for the resistance took shelter among civilian populations, using women and children as "human shields;"
And thus you see, logically, the murder of French civilians by the nazis was the fault of the resistance.
Precisely and exactly as the deaths of Lebanese women and children are the fault of Hezbollah.

[KNOCKABOUT]

You see, it was the fault of the French Resistance that the nazis retaliated by murdering civilians at random.

For the resistance engaged in asymetrical warfare;
for the resistance were irregulars who wore no uniforms;
for the resistance engaged in sabotage of public transport and other acts of terrorism;
for the resistance took shelter among civilian populations, using women and children as "human shields;"
And thus you see, logically, the murder of French civilians by the nazis was the fault of the resistance.
Precisely and exactly as the deaths of Lebanese women and children are the fault of Hezbollah.

Noted from your previous posts I can only regard your present attempt at metaphor to be somewhat sarcastic. I wish you would dispense with the sarcasm (if indeed you intended it), and state your points more clearly. Are you in fact equating Nazi hegemony over Europe to the Israeli incursion into Lebanon?

[PatCox]

No, I am equating the logic that exonerates the IDF from blame for causing civilian casualties with the logic I presented which leads to the conclusion that the nazis were not to blame for the deaths of french civilians. There is a fancy name for this technique of argument, in which you take a syllogism and apply it in a circumstance which produces an absurd result, in Aristotle's Nichomachean Ethics, but I have forgotten the term. Nevertheless it is classified as a valid means of argument.

The identity of the combatants in my example is not relevant to the logic, what matters is the logical proposition that fighting an assymetric war against irregulars who do not wear uniforms and who blend in with the civilian population justifies the killing of civilians.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Thank you for the restatement. I apologize for the tone of my previous post - peavish as it was.

[Donn]

..but I have forgotten the term.

I think the term you seek is malarky.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

As I recall, the Nazis murdered quite a few civilians. 98% of all those murdered offered no resistance whatsoever.
The French Resistance were not terrorists. In the language of the day they were "a fifth column". They operated against the German Army and ancillery German infrastructure. Their main activities were spying and sabotage. They endangerd the population because it was well known that the Germans took hostages. But that is a far cry from from lining up an army behind a screen of innocent civilians and daring the enemy to attack.
The town of Lidice, in Bohemia, was destoyed with all it's inhabitants even tho' there was no evidence that it played any part in the murder of Reinhardt Heydrich (sic). The town of Obradur sur Glade was similarly oblitered with all it's citizens because an SS unit, retreating from the Riviera, got into a foul mood one day.
Even tho' the second instance was every bit as bad as the first you could not call it an act of terror. The French villagers were killed, just, for the hell of it.
As you can see, every evil act cannot be called "terror" even tho' it is terrible.

Charlie

[pcford]

I think the term you seek is malarky.

Feeling a little crankier than normal today, aren't you Donn?

[KNOCKABOUT]

Terror and terrorism, is a subjective analogy. There is no reliable definition...

[Andy Bangs]

Reductio ad absurdum, surely.

[Nicholas Carey]

Then again dropping bombs in civilian areas is likely to kill civilians. Unless you're using those special bombs whose blast wave and primary and secondary projectiles only hit terrists.that's the problem with "precision bombing". It doesn't matter how accurate the bombs are -- it's only as "precise" as the kill range of the munition.

And JDAM isn't that accurate. According to globalsecurity.org, JDAM gives a Circular Error Probable of 13m if GPS/INS -- INS: Inertial Navigation System -- is available and used and 30 meters if it's using INS only.

The lethal blast radius -- meaning 100% lethality -- for a Mark 82 general purpose 500 pounder is 20 meters. The "effective casualty radius" -- meaning a 50% casualty rate for the 500 pound Mark 82 is some 60 meters.

I don't know about your neighborhood but, in my neighborhood there's probably 6 houses within 20m of my front door. And within 60m? Even assuming you hit the target on the nailhead, that's still not exactly what I'd call "precise".

[Paul G.]

Israel is in a position to do whatever it wants, sadly it has forgotten the holocaust and now prefers jackboots and shiny uniforms (four legs good, two legs better)

There is a price however which israels children will pay, because I believe there is no military solution. never has been and never will be.

I have a lebanese friend, whose son was evacuated last week to cyprus. it is very interesting to hear from a man whose family is being bombed by US funded Israeli bombs. He does not support Hezbollah, but he sure wants the Israelis to stopped.

[htom]

It seems to me that for Hezbolah to locate missle storage or firing points within civilian areas is a war crime, whether or not the Israelis strike at such targets. If they do, the blame properly would fall on Hezbolah, not Israel.

[Donn]

It seems to me that for Hezbolah to locate missle storage or firing points within civilian areas is a war crime..

That's right, it's against the Geneva Convention. You remember the Geneva Convention. That's the set of war rules many who criticize Israel demand the US follow in dealing with terrorists.

Lebanon signed the Geneva Convention. Hizbollah is a part of Lebanon's government.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Israel is in a position to do whatever it wants, sadly it has forgotten the holocaust and now prefers jackboots and shiny uniforms (four legs good, two legs better)

There is a price however which israels children will pay, because I believe there is no military solution. never has been and never will be.

I have a lebanese friend, whose son was evacuated last week to cyprus. it is very interesting to hear from a man whose family is being bombed by US funded Israeli bombs. He does not support Hezbollah, but he sure wants the Israelis to stopped.

And my family has been hit by Katyusha rockets countless times over the past six years (and further back into the conflict - but lets just stick to the 2000 pullout)... and they want Hezbollah out of power and out of the border region. My family has been evacuated, bombed, members of the family have died, the bomb shelter is painted like a playground so the kids dont go bannanas inside... and now Hezbollah whimpers like the dog it is, and you feel sorry for it, and take it in, and feed it?

[George.]

So, are there any Israeli military targets - say, air bases, or army bases - within "civilian areas?" Given the low accuracy of Hezbollah's Katyushas, can they claim that they are targeting these, and hitting civilians as "collateral damage?"

If they did, would any of you excuse them?

[George.]

As someone rightly pointed out, they’ve got no industry, they don’t invent anything and a century later they still need foreigners to get their damn oil out of the ground for them...


Those worthless, ignorant sand niggers. Just blast them all to hell, let Allah sort them out.




...but one thing the Arab world appears able to create and manufacture in quantity is fake atrocities, starting all the way back at Dir Yassin in 1948 to Jennin to right now.

Sure, Jenin was a fake - what the whole world saw was faked in Arab TV studios. Qana is a fake - fake blood, fake children. And the Holocaust never happened - all Zionist propaganda. And I am the Queen of Sheeba. :rolleyes:

[KNOCKABOUT]

Ah, no George, there are not. And if the conflict even approached a semblance of normalcy, there would at least be respect. But when you target civilians... a partial list follows of post 2000 incidents abridged as it is - as I can only post 10000 characters...

– May 29, 2001: Gilad Zar, an Itamar resident, was shot dead in a terrorist ambush by Fatah Tanzim.
– May 29, 2001: Sara Blaustein, 53, and Esther Alvan, 20, of Efrat, were killed in a drive-by shooting south of Jerusalem. The Fatah Tanzim claimed responsibility for the attack.
– June 18, 2001: Doron Zisserman, 38, shot and killed in his car by Fatah sniper fire.
– Aug 26, 2001: Dov Rosman, 58, killed in a shooting attack by Fatah terrorist.
– Sept 6, 2001: Erez Merhavi, 23, killed in a Fatah Tanzim ambush shooting near Hadera while driving to a wedding.
– Sept 20, 2001: Sarit Amrani, 26, killed by Fatah terrorist snipers as she was traveling in a car with her husband and 3 children.
– Oct 4, 2001: 3 killed, 13 wounded, when a Fatah terrorist, dressed as an Israeli paratrooper, opened fire on Israeli civilians waiting at the central bus station in Afula.
– Nov 27, 2001 - 2 killed 50 injured when two Palestinian terrorists opened fire with Kalashnikov assault rifles on a crowd of people near the central bus station in Afula. Fatah and the Islamic Jihad claimed joint responsibility.
– Nov 29, 2001: 3 killed and 9 wounded in a suicide bombing on an Egged 823 bus en route from Nazereth to Tel Aviv near the city of Hadera. The Islamic Jihad and Fatah claimed responsibility for the attack.
– Dec 12, 2001 - 11 killed and 30 wounded when three terrorists attacked a bus and several passenger cars with a roadside bomb, anti-tank grenades, and light arms fire near the entrance to Emmanuel in Samaria . Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility for the attack.
– Jan 15, 2002: Avi Boaz, 71, an American citizen, was kidnapped at a PA security checkpoint in Beit Jala. His bullet-riddled body was found in a car near Bethlehem. The Fatah's Al-Aksa Brigade claimed responsibility for the murder.
– Jan 15, 2002: Yoela Chen, 45, was shot dead by an Al Aqsa Brigade terrorist
– Jan 17, 2002: 6 killed, 35 wounded when a Fatah terrorist burst into a bat mitzva reception in a banquet hall in Hadera opening fire with an M-16 assault rifle.
– Jan 22, 2002: 2 killed, 40 injured when a Fatah terrorist opened fire with an M-16 assault rifle near a bus stop in downtown Jerusalem.
– Jan. 27, 2002: One person was killed and more than 150 were wounded by a female Fatah suicide bomber in the center of Jerusalem.
– Feb 6, 2002 - A mother and her 11 year old daughter were murdered in their home by a Palestinian terrorist disguised in an IDF uniform. Both Fatah and Hamas claimed responsibility.
– Feb 18, 2002 : - Ahuva Amergi, 30, was killed and a 60-year old man was injured when a Palestinian terrorist opened fire on her car. Maj. Mor Elraz, 25, and St.-Sgt. Amir Mansouri, 21, who came to their assistance, were killed while trying to intercept the terrorist. The terrorist was killed when the explosives he was carrying were detonated. The Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
– Feb 22, 2002: Valery Ahmir, 59, was killed by terrorists in a Fatah drive-by shooting north of Jerusalem as he returned home from work.
– Feb 25, 2002: Avraham Fish, 65, and Aharon Gorov, 46, were killed in a Fatah terrorist shooting attack south of Bethlehem. Fish's daughter, 9 months pregnant, was seriously injured but delivered a baby girl.
– Feb 25, 2002: Police officer 1st Sgt. Galit Arbiv, 21, died after being fatally shot, when a Fatah terrorist opened fire at a bus stop in the Neve Ya'akov residential neighbhorhood in northern Jerusalem. Eight others were injured.
– Feb 27, 2002: Gad Rejwan, 34, of Jerusalem, was shot and killed by one of his Palestinian employees in a factory north of Jerusalem. Two Fatah groups issued a joint statement taking responsibility for the murder.
– March 2, 2002: A suicide bombing by Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade in an ultra-Orthodox Jewish neighborhood of Jerusalem killed 11 people and injured more than 50.
– Mar 5, 2002: 3 were killed and over 30 people were wounded in Tel-Aviv when a Fatah terrorist opened fire on two adjacent restaurants shortly after 2:00 AM.
– Mar 5, 2002: Devorah Friedman, 45, of Efrat, was killed and her husband injured in a Fatah shooting attack on the Bethlehem bypass "tunnel road", south of Jerusalem.
– Mar 9, 2002: Avia Malka, 9 months, and Israel Yihye, 27, were killed and about 50 people were injured when two Fatah terrorists opened fire and threw grenades at cars and pedestrians in the coastal city of Netanya on Saturday evening, close to the city's boardwalk and hotels.
–March 21, 2002: An Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bomber exploded himself in a crowd of shoppers in Jerusalem, killing 3 and injuring 86.
– March 29, 2002: Two killed and 28 injured when a female Fatah suicide bomber blew herself up in a Jerusalem supermarket.
– March 30, 2002: One killed and 30 injured in an Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bombing in Tel Aviv.
– April 12, 2002: Six killed and 104 wounded when a female Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade suicide bomber blew herself up at a bus stop on Jaffa road at the entrance to Jerusalem's Mahane Yehuda open-air market.
– May 27, 2002: Ruth Peled, 56, of Herzliya and her infant granddaughter, aged 14 months, were killed and 37 people were injured when a Fatah suicide bomber detonated himself near an ice cream parlor outside a shopping mall in Petah Tikva.
– May 28, 2002 - Albert Maloul, 50, of Jerusalem, was killed when shots were fired by Fatah terrorists at the car in which he was traveling south on the Ramallah bypass road.
– May 28, 2002 - Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigade terrorists killed Netanel Riachi, 17, Gilad Stiglitz, 14, and Avraham Siton, 17, three yeshiva high school students playing basketball.
– June 19, 2002: Seven people were killed and 37 injured when a Fatah suicide bomber blew himself up at a crowded bus stop and hitchhiking post in the French Hill neighborhood of Jerusalem.
– June 20, 2002: Rachel Shabo, 40, and three of her sons - Neria, 16, Zvika, 12, and Avishai, 5 - as well as a neighbor, Yosef Twito, 31, who came to their aid, were murdered when a terrorist entered their home in Itamar, south of Nablus, and opened fire. Two other children were injured, as well as two soldiers. The PFLP and the Fatah Al Aqsa Brigades claimed responsibility for the attack.
– July 25, 2002: Rabbi Elimelech Shapira, 43, was killed in a Fatah shooting attack near the West Bank community of Alei Zahav.
– July 26, 2002: St.-Sgt. Elazar Lebovitch, 21, of Hebron; Rabbi Yosef Dikstein, 45, of Psagot, his wife Hannah, 42, and their 9-year-old son Shuv'el Zion were killed in a Fatah Al Aqsa Brigade shooting attack south of Hebron. Two other of their children were injured. – July 30, 2002: Shlomo Odesser, 60, and his brother Mordechai, 52, both of Tapuach in Samaria, were shot and killed when their truck came under Fatah fire in the West Bank village of Jama'in.
– Aug 4, 2002: 2 killed and 17 wounded when a Fatah terrorist opened fire with a pistol near the Damascus Gate of Jerusalem's Old City.
– Aug 5, 2002: Avi Wolanski (29) and his wife Avital (27), of Eli, were killed and one of their children, aged 3, was injured when terrorists opened fire on their car as they were traveling on the Ramallah-Nablus road in Samaria. The Martyrs of the Palestinian Popular Army, a splinter group associated with Arafat's Fatah movement, claimed responsibility for the attack.
– Aug 10, 2002: Yafit Herenstein, 31, of Moshav Mechora in the Jordan Valley, was killed and her husband, Arno, seriously wounded when a Fatah terrorist infiltrated the moshav and opened fire outside their home.
– Sept 18, 2002: Yosef Ajami, 36, was killed when Fatah terrorists opened fire on his car near Mevo Dotan, north of Jenin in the West Bank.
– Oct 29, 2002: Three people, including 2 fourteen year olds, were shot to death by a Fatah terrorist.
-- Nov 10, 2002: Revital Ohayon, 34, and her two sons, Matan, 5, and Noam, 4, as well as Yitzhak Dori, 44 - all of Kibbutz Metzer - and Tirza Damari, 42, were killed when a Fatah terrorist infiltrated the kibbutz, located east of Hadera near the Green Line, and opened fire.
– Nov 28, 2002: 5 killed and 40 wounded when two Fatah terrorists opened fire and threw grenades at the Likud polling station in Beit She'an, near the central bus station, where party members were casting their votes in the Likud primary.
– Apr 24, 2003 - 1 was killed and 13 were wounded in a suicide bombing outside the train station in Kfar Sava. Groups related to the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades and the PFLP clamied joint responsibility for the attack.
– May 5, 2003 - Gideon Lichterman, 27, was killed and two other passengers, his six-year-old daughter Moriah and a reserve soldier, were seriously wounded when Fatah terrorists fired shots at their vehicle in Samaria.
– May 19, 2003: 3 were killed and 70 were wounded in a suicide bombing at the entrance to the Amakim Mall in Afula. The Islamic Jihad and the Fatah al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades both claimed responsibility for the attack.


Cry your crocodile tears over this now too George. The fact of the matter is you have no memory. Ask your Lebanese phelange friends what they think of Hezbollah... The answer is not dissimilar to what an Israeli would say.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Notice the frequency George.

[George.]

Knockabout: I know what my Lebanese friends think of Hezbollah. I cannot repeat it here though - something about not using foul language in a public forum.

Hezbollah are a bunch of cynical, worthless, murdering, ruthless power grabbers, who are using the issues surrounding Palestine for their own political gain. They target civilians. They hide among civilians. They have no scruples, or morals.

Israel is us. Israel is the West. It was created by the West, it was settled by Westerners, it is a Western nation. We are supposed to be better than that. When Western nations shed their scruples and morals, what results is things like Nazi Germany.

If we become like them, then we and our nations are as worthless as their terrorist groups. And in the long run, they will win - there are more of them to waste.

[KNOCKABOUT]

The first part of your statement is indeed correct; however, fascism is a confluence of radical theology and nationalism - a situation Israel is in little danger of repeating. Hezbollah and Hamas and various other "brotherhood" movements; however, are well along their way to achieving this end. This is the fight we in the West now face...

[Donn]

This is the fight we in the West now face...

Not George. Brazil doesn't do anything to tick off the terrorists, so they don't have to worry. It's an odd kind of moral high ground, sort of ostrich-like, but that's his story.

[Paul G.]

And my family has been hit by Katyusha rockets countless times over the past six years (and further back into the conflict - but lets just stick to the 2000 pullout)... and they want Hezbollah out of power and out of the border region. My family has been evacuated, bombed, members of the family have died, the bomb shelter is painted like a playground so the kids dont go bannanas inside... and now Hezbollah whimpers like the dog it is, and you feel sorry for it, and take it in, and feed it?

Hezbollah do not deserve sympathy, my comments stand. there is no military solution to their percieved problem either. Dead children are still dead no matter who pulls the trigger.

However Israel has the military might and the support of the US to begin to solve their problem diplomatically. Extremism and marginalisation has resulted from western and Israeli policy to date. I cant see it changing without peaceniks on both sides taking over and booting out the reactionaries and revolutionaries. Never going to happen of course....

[htom]

So, are there any Israeli military targets - say, air bases, or army bases - within "civilian areas?" Given the low accuracy of Hezbollah's Katyushas, can they claim that they are targeting these, and hitting civilians as "collateral damage?"

If they did, would any of you excuse them?

Since Hezbollah's Katyusha warhead have been modified into anti-personnel warheads ... no.

[Kim Whitmyre]

This is from a portion of a column by Ran HaCohen, 7/31/06. Here is a link to the whole column: I recommend it.

Respecting Lebanon's Sovereignty (http://www.antiwar.com/hacohen/?articleid=9442)


The UN Chronicle (Excerpts)

Interim report of the secretary-general on the UN Interim Force in Lebanon, April 30, 2001:

"Since the resolution was adopted [i.e., since Israel's withdrawal], the situation has remained essentially unchanged, although there were further developments in the dispute over Shab'a farms area. As before, there were frequent minor ground violations of the Blue Line. There were, in addition, almost daily violations of the line by Israeli aircraft which penetrated deeply into Lebanese airspace. I have been in touch with the parties concerned and other interested parties to urge respect for the Blue Line and to avert further escalation."

Report of the secretary-general for the period from July 18, 2000, to Jan. 18, 2001:

"Israeli violations of Lebanese air space, which had resumed after Hizbollah's attack on 7th October, continued on an almost daily basis."

For the period from Jan. 23, 2001, to July 20, 2001:

"As reported in April, Israeli aircraft violated the line on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. These incursions, particularly those at low level breaking the sound barrier over populated areas, were especially provocative and caused great anxiety to the civilian population. The air violations are ongoing, despite repeated démarches to the Israeli authorities."

For the period from July 21, 2001, to Jan. 16, 2002:

"Israeli air violations of the Blue Line, however, continued on an almost daily basis, penetrating deep into Lebanese airspace. These incursions are not justified and cause great concerns to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas. The air violations are ongoing, although démarches to the Israeli authorities […] have been made repeatedly by me, other senior United Nations officials and a number of interested Governments."

For the period from Jan. 17, 2002, to July 12, 2002:

"Unjustified Israeli air incursions into sovereign Lebanese airspace continued on an almost daily basis throughout most of the reporting period, often penetrating deep into Lebanon and frequently generating sonic booms. In the latter half of April, a pattern emerged whereby the aircraft would fly out to sea and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding direct observation and verification by UNIFIL. In January Hezbollah began responding to the overflights with anti-aircraft fire. This activity has continued through the present. On a number of occasions […] shells crossed the Blue Line. Calls on Israel to cease the overflights […]"

For the period from July 13, 2002, to Jan. 14, 2003:

"There were sporadic Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace, with periodic lulls in such activity punctuated by abrupt increases over periods of several days. On two occasions in November, Israeli overflights exceeded any recorded number since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000. Many of these air violations penetrated deep into Lebanon, often generating sonic booms over populated areas. The pattern identified in my last report continued, whereby the aircraft would fly out to sea and enter Lebanese airspace north of the UNIFIL area of operation, thus avoiding direct observation and verification by UNIFIL."

For the period from Jan. 15, 2003, to July 23, 2003:

"The most significant sources of tension were the persistent Israeli violations of Lebanese airspace and instances of Hezbollah antiaircraft fire directed across the Blue Line towards Israeli villages. […] Israeli air incursions into Lebanon increased overall during the reporting period, though the numbers have declined since early July. UNIFIL recorded almost daily violations across the Blue Line in some weeks. As in the past, Israeli overflights penetrated deep into Lebanon, often generating sonic booms over populated areas."

For the period from July 24, 2003, to Jan. 19, 2004:

"The recurrent Israeli air incursions into Lebanon continued. The numbers abated at times but periods of little or no activity were invariably followed by an intensification of the flights. […] Hezbollah continued to react […]"

For the period from Jan. 21, 2004, to July 21, 2004:

"A cycle of disruptions and armed exchanges across the Blue Line commenced on 5 May. Israel carried out more than 20 air sorties over Lebanon, a number of which generated sonic booms. Hezbollah subsequently fired several antiaircraft rounds […]"

"Israeli air incursions were on the whole less frequent than in the previous period, although they were notable for their intensity and the large number of aircraft involved. Israeli officials maintained that there would be overflights whenever Israel deemed them necessary. As in the past, Israeli aircraft often penetrated deep […] sonic booms over populated areas […] fly out to the sea […] avoiding direct observation […]"

For the period from July 21, 2004, to Jan. 20, 2005:

"Israeli air incursions into Lebanon continued throughout the reporting period. […] Israeli officials maintained the position that there would be overflights whenever they deemed them necessary. […] As in the past […]"

For the period from Jan. 21, 2005, to July 20, 2005:

"Violations of the Blue Line continued throughout the past six months, most often in the form of recurring air violations by Israeli jets, helicopters and drones as well as ground violations, from the Lebanese side, primarily by Lebanese shepherds. […] The Israeli Air Force continued their air incursion […] deep into Lebanon […] sonic booms […] whenever Israel deemed […]"

For the period from July 22, 2005, to Jan. 20, 2006:

"The Israeli Air Force violated Lebanese airspace on many occasions during the reporting period, disturbing the relative calm along the Blue Line. […] [I]n November, overflights by jets, helicopters and unmanned aerial vehicles or drones were numerous and particularly intrusive and provocative. […] There were no instances of Hezbollah antiaircraft fire across the Blue Line […]."

For the period from Jan. 21, 2006, to July 18, 2006:

"Persistent and provocative Israeli air incursions […] remained a matter of serious concern. […] A reduction in the number of air incursions in April contributed to an atmosphere of relative calm along the Blue Line, but this trend was reversed in May."

What the Observers Won't Observe Anymore

Since Israel withdrew from Lebanon six years ago, then, it hasn't given its northern neighbor even a single day of quiet. The more the UN reports repeat themselves, the less attention the media pays them. And just as Israelis wonder about the purpose of Hezbollah's missile arsenal, so could Lebanon, and so should we all, wonder what was the purpose of the thousands of Israeli overflights and sonic booms in Lebanon's sky: was it to gather some information not available to Israel's satellites anyway, or, much more likely, just to terrorize Lebanon's population by showing them that we violate their sovereignty "whenever we deem it necessary"?

And as for the killing of the observers, we can only speculate what it was that Israel didn't want them to observe anymore. Cluster munitions? Other crimes? We might never know.

[George.]

... fascism is a confluence of radical theology and nationalism - a situation Israel is in little danger of repeating.

I do not mean to say that Israel is politically analogous to Nazi Germany. I mean to point out that when a Western state, with all the advantages of technology and a modern economy, decides to cast away moral scruples in the pursuit of a military goal, the result is far uglier than anything the more backwards cultures can produce.

That said, are you sure Israel is so free of radical theology and nationalism? ;)

[KNOCKABOUT]

Kim, your source is a joke... and its reflective.

[KNOCKABOUT]

I do not mean to say that Israel is politically analogous to Nazi Germany. I mean to point out that when a Western state, with all the advantages of technology and a modern economy, decides to cast away moral scruples in the pursuit of a military goal, the result is far uglier than anything the more backwards cultures can produce.

That said, are you sure Israel is so free of radical theology and nationalism? ;)

George, my statement was that Israel has "little" chance of following down that road, not, "no" chance. It is everywhere, and Israel has more than its fair share of the whacked-out and misguided. And by and large this is a function of its isolation, but thats another thread. As far as morals and all that, you and I have been down this road before... War is a suspension of moral behavior, thats why we call it war. I'm sorry if you dont like this, but it seems to be the tendency of conflict, and any two or more warring parties. Clearly you understand this, even if you think it ought to change.

The issue here isn't that whats going on is terrible, thats given, its the way this notion is being expressed here on this forum, and as a representative view of ideas in this country. I am shocked at how few understand they are repeating rhetoric and propoganda and not anything approaching fact. And even when the source is so pathetic as to not even warrant a thumbed nose, the conclusions are completely baseless even if you decided to accept the source. And then the whole thing is entirely relaxed and wholly out of context. You and me have our differences George, but at least you think it through to its conclusions...

[George.]

Knockabout: war is not a total suspension of moral behavior, unless it is a total war like WWII.

Wars have had rules designed to minimize unnecessary damage and suffering since ancient times. Greek armies would call truces to bury the dead. The Romans would not sack a town that surrendered.

One aspect of our so-called "progress" has been that, even as weapons became deadlier, civilized nations have adopted protocols and laws to reduce the suffering caused by warfare. Were it not so, every Western war would end with nukes being dropped.

Israel's action in Lebanon barely qualifies as a war - it is closer to a police action. And the chosen strategy appears to be collective punishment. They air strikes have not stopped the rockets - around 100 are being launched every day. The damage to Hezbollah has been negligible. But the damage to the country as a whole, to its people, its economy, and its infrastructure, has been huge.

Supporters of this policy make no secret that they consider Lebanon as a whole responsible for "tolerating" Hezbollah, and that they expect the collective punishment to persuade them that it is not worth it. But I ask you: knowing the Arab culture, do you really think that might work, or is it only making things worse - actually increasing support for Hezbollah?

That is why I say this policy is unjustified. Because it causes widespread suffering without achieving any goals that might justify it. It is little more than revenge, and that is, or should be, beneath the motivations of a civilized nation.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Knockabout: war is not a total suspension of moral behavior, unless it is a total war like WWII.

Wars have had rules designed to minimize unnecessary damage and suffering since ancient times. Greek armies would call truces to bury the dead. The Romans would not sack a town that surrendered.

One aspect of our so-called "progress" has been that, even as weapons became deadlier, civilized nations have adopted protocols and laws to reduce the suffering caused by warfare. Were it not so, every Western war would end with nukes being dropped.

Israel's action in Lebanon barely qualifies as a war - it is closer to a police action. And the chosen strategy appears to be collective punishment. They air strikes have not stopped the rockets - around 100 are being launched every day. The damage to Hezbollah has been negligible. But the damage to the country as a whole, to its people, its economy, and its infrastructure, has been huge.

Supporters of this policy make no secret that they consider Lebanon as a whole responsible for "tolerating" Hezbollah, and that they expect the collective punishment to persuade them that it is not worth it. But I ask you: knowing the Arab culture, do you really think that might work, or is it only making things worse - actually increasing support for Hezbollah?

That is why I say this policy is unjustified. Because it causes widespread suffering without achieving any goals that might justify it. It is little more than revenge, and that is, or should be, beneath the motivations of a civilized nation.

Rules in warfare are for the expediency of both sides, that is to say they are convenient guidelines... and soldiers on the front lines dont follow those rules, politicians declare they are being followed. I know you may not have insight into this as you have not stood with a gun in your hand, but please remember that when one person decides to kill another it is a suspension of normal moral behaviors, a thing that they would not normaly do on the streets of Paris. I dont think you have much wriggle room on this one George. As for increasing support for Hezbollah? They hold seats in Parliament, what more support do they need? How much worse does it have to become? Does a soveriegn nation need to be on the brink of collapse in order to begin to feel threatened? And I dont think this is revenge, I think it is a hardened resolve to act and dismantle shelling of civilian populations. Israel lived with Hezbollah on its borders for 20 years before this operation began. Is that a long enough period for the substantiation and legitimacy of this desire to eradicate Hezbollah? Apparently not by your standards. I think it is justified. I think they may not succeed, but shall they do nothing, shall they simply go quietly away and lick their wounds?

[George.]

Let's take an analogous situation that does not involve Israel, shall we?

Rio has some huge and notorious slums which are basically run by criminal gangs. The gangs control the residents, hide among them, but also provide security, jobs and, believe it or not, social services. The police cannot go in there.

The gangsters come out of the slums to mug, rob, and kill the general population of the city. They then run back to the slums, where no one dares turn them in, where they stash their guns and loot, and where any police raid results in lots of innocent residents being shot, dead cops, and little harm to the gangsters.

On an average month, more people are killed by criminals in Rio than by terrorists in Israel.

Would the Brazilian state therefore be justified in bombing and shelling these slums in an attempt to destroy the gangs and their infrastructure, even though they are hiding among civilians? If that happened, and CNN were showing images of dead and bleeding Rio slum dwellers every day, would you think "serves them right for tolerating the criminals hiding among them"?

[Garrett Lowell]

I think, George, your example would be more accurate if you portrayed the slum criminals like this:

The gangsters load up on a bunch of mortars from, say, the U.S. Then they start indiscriminately popping them off into the surrounding non-slum areas, at any time and for any or no reason, killing innocent men, women, and children.

Would the Brazilian state therefore be justified in bombing and shelling these slums in an attempt to destroy the gangs and their infrastructure, even though they are hiding among civilians? If that happened, and CNN were showing images of dead and bleeding Rio slum dwellers every day, would you think "serves them right for tolerating the criminals hiding among them"?

[KNOCKABOUT]

Let's take an analogous situation that does not involve Israel, shall we?

Rio has some huge and notorious slums which are basically run by criminal gangs. The gangs control the residents, hide among them, but also provide security, jobs and, believe it or not, social services. The police cannot go in there.

The gangsters come out of the slums to mug, rob, and kill the general population of the city. They then run back to the slums, where no one dares turn them in, where they stash their guns and loot, and where any police raid results in lots of innocent residents being shot, dead cops, and little harm to the gangsters.

On an average month, more people are killed by criminals in Rio than by terrorists in Israel.

Would the Brazilian state therefore be justified in bombing and shelling these slums in an attempt to destroy the gangs and their infrastructure, even though they are hiding among civilians? If that happened, and CNN were showing images of dead and bleeding Rio slum dwellers every day, would you think "serves them right for tolerating the criminals hiding among them"?

However, the criminals are benefitting from the state, and have no reason to eradicate it. And the moment that turns into something else, the moment the threat escalates, I would hope the Brazilian government could eradicate the threat and protect those peace loving beautiful Ipanema honies you have down there... A governments sole job is to protect the welfare of its citizens...

[George.]

Garrett, the gangsters do have mortars, granades, and even rocket launchers. They use them against cops and against snitches. They occasionally decree a forced closure of shops in the city, in protest against something the police did, for instance, and they bomb any shop that opens. And when they have shootouts, "lost bullets" often kill innocent people.

Again: they kill more innocents than the terrorists do in Israel.

[LeeG]

anyone know what the dud rate for a 155artillery round with 68 submunitions is? Just curious.

[George.]

However, the criminals are benefitting from the state, and have no reason to eradicate it.

The criminals have effectively eradicated the state in the slums, and openly compete with the state in the streets below.

[Garrett Lowell]

Garrett, the gangsters do have mortars, granades, and even rocket launchers. They use them against cops and against snitches. They occasionally decree a forced closure of shops in the city, in protest against something the police did, for instance, and they bomb any shop that opens. And when they have shootouts, "lost bullets" often kill innocent people.

Again: they kill more innocents than the terrorists do in Israel.
So are they indiscriminately bombing innocent people for no reason than to kill innocent people? That is the crux of the question.

[George.]

No, they do it to achieve political goals - in this case, to get the state (police) to back off and leave them in control of their areas and their drug distribution networks.

Hezbollah has political goals too. They don't fire rockets "for no reason than to kill innocent people." Their goals may be despicable, but so are the goals of Rio criminal gangs.

You guys are avoiding the question: would you think that the Brazilian government would be justified to shell the slums?

BTW, the current mess in Lebanon was "started" by the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. Criminal gangs kidnap people all the time and take them back into the slums.

[Garrett Lowell]

I'm not avoiding the question. If the Brazilian Police determined that they needed to go in and clear the threat, and then they used conventional methods to do so, I would say they had not only every right to do so, but that it would be their duty to do so. But just shelling the area, no.

[geeman]

Sounds like S America has a problem,,if the people down there are so smart ,why dont they fix it? Instead of staying busy explainning to us up north what WE"RE doing wrong ,constantly.

[KNOCKABOUT]

The criminals have effectively eradicated the state in the slums, and openly compete with the state in the streets below.

Money is a function of the state... come on George you know better than that.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Political threats are insoluable and lead to war. Economic threats are dealt with in the criminal justice sphere...

[Osborne Russell]

They air strikes have not stopped the rockets - around 100 are being launched every day. The damage to Hezbollah has been negligible.

That's the nub of the matter. For an action to be justified as self defense, it has to be reasonably calculated to achieve self-defense.

Collective punishment is inexpedient apart from being immoral.

[KNOCKABOUT]

That's the nub of the matter. For an action to be justified as self defense, it has to be reasonably calculated to achieve self-defense.

Collective punishment is inexpedient apart from being immoral.

Wait for the end of the book before you quit reading...

[Osborne Russell]

Wait for the end of the book before you quit reading...

True. Are the Hezbollah attacks over?

[George.]

Sounds like S America has a problem,,if the people down there are so smart ,why dont they fix it? Instead of staying busy explainning to us up north what WE"RE doing wrong ,constantly.

Gee, man, I thought we were discussing the Middle East in this thread. Are you Lebanese or Israeli?

Anyway, I thought you were ignoring me... :D

[geeman]

I missed you George,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[George.]

Political threats are insoluable and lead to war. Economic threats are dealt with in the criminal justice sphere...

Economic threats? I am talking about the creation of geographical areas where the state cannot enter - where the criminal gangs are the state.

Answer: if CNN showed pictures of dead slum children, killed by aerial bombardments which were a response to the kidnapping of people down below in the streets of Rio, would you condone it? How many bilge rats would?

[George.]

I missed you George,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

:D

Peace, brother. To us and them.

[Garrett Lowell]

George, the other part of the analogy which I (and you) left out was: do the slum gangsters call for the end of the Brazil government and state, and for the death of all Brazilians (wiped from the face of the Earth), and then begin their random bombardment of civilians? This would probably determine the methods and distance the Brazilian government would and should respond.

[geeman]

My understanding according to George,,is Brazilians get along with everyone,they have No enemies.I believe I recall ole George saying that several times in the past.

[George.]

We don't get along with each other, geeman. We have met the enemy, and he is us. And Brazilian civilization has utterly failed to produce workable big cities.

It would seem that our culture only produces a workable society at scales where people know each other personally. I wouldn't leave Angra for any place in the world, but I avoid Rio and São Paulo like the plague.

[Garrett Lowell]

"We have met the enemy, and he is us."

I fully concur, George.

[geeman]

It appears we each (most countries) dont quite live up to what we think our standards of life should be.All we can do is take one day at a time and hope there is a next day.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Back to the subject of this thread


rescue workers dug through the rubble, lifting out bodies dressed in colorful clothes of women and children.

Children :(

[Chris Coose]

Children :(

Little ones and big ones and it appears they are being dug from their home graves by parents and loved ones.

All part of dubbya's "peace" plan, which as we see in other invasions, has no termination date. The bad guys are to be "reined in" while parents search and dig. Probably some children are doing the same for their parents.

[LeeG]

Condis war,,no half-measures with a cease fire.
Does anyone know if 155mm cluster munitions always dispense in the air or can the go off in buildings?

[KNOCKABOUT]

My understanding according to George,,is Brazilians get along with everyone,they have No enemies.I believe I recall ole George saying that several times in the past.

Hey any man that can shake a fresh Mojito is my friend... and if not, he will be in about 5 minutes.

[George Jung]

You guys are avoiding the question: would you think that the Brazilian government would be justified to shell the slums?

I'll add my .02, fwiw. Nice lead by the nose, but no cigar. Poor analogy, incongruous with the ME situation. On the one hand you have one country, dealing with another (which is a front for the intentions of the entire region) which is shelling that countries citizens, homicide bombers etc., random, indiscriminate killing of citizens. That countries response is to respond to those attacks, attempting to eliminate the aggressors, but with no intent of taking over that country.
Your SA analogy is of a criminal element made up of your own people, who have taken over a neighborhood within your own country, and seemingly beyond the reach of your own law enforcment. Unbelieveable! Would I recommend shelling that neighborhood? Of course not. But the idea that your government is so impotent it can't even control a neighborhood from it's own home grown hoods, is telling in the extreme. I wonder what Brazil would do, in the event one of your neighbors was attacking you, as Hizbollah is Israel. Maybe Venezuela decides you are ripe for a border war. Could Brazil even mount a defense? From what you tell us, it would appear not.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Condis war,,no half-measures with a cease fire.
Does anyone know if 155mm cluster munitions always dispense in the air or can the go off in buildings?

Cluster munitions often fall to the ground unexploded, and they're yellow and resemble toys, which is why so many children are hurt and killed by them...

[George.]

So what are you saying, George Jung? It's OK to shell your neighbors innocent people, but not your own? Even when your neighbor's government is impotent to do anything about it?

Are you displaying some thinly-veiled racism, or just a logical fallacy?

[TomF]

...the idea that your government is so impotent it can't even control a neighborhood from it's own home grown hoods, is telling in the extreme... Hmmm ... how's that war on drugs going, George J? Mafia stopped in their tracks? I've friends in Baltimore who tell me there are parts of the city that they don't drive through even in the daytime - they're being silly?

Organized crime's alive and well in both of the countries where we live, George J; just on a different scale. But it's still a scale that our two much richer countries can't eradicate.

[George Jung]

Nice one, TomF; I'd point out that your analogy is patently different than that under discussion. Do you think there is any part of the US where law enforcement is afraid to engage weapon-yielding hoodlums? I must have missed that news item. I also haven't heard of citizens being kidnapped for ransom.

George likes to smudge his distinctions to score points; he has here, as usual. But no points, George. Your statement makes no sense.

Note that Israel is engaged in battle with an opponent shielding themselves with the local citizenry. The Hizbollah military is very well armed, courtesy of Iran and Syria, and a much more formidable enemy than previously. They will win this war, but it's going to be at a greater cost - to the Lebanese - because of these circumstances.

I guess I can't appreciate how different our culture is from Brazils. I was going to say corrupt, but perhaps that isn't correct. I can't imagine the scenario described, and a citizenry, or elected government, allowing it.
Some of the rest of your post doesn't make sense to me ( It's OK to shell your neighbors innocent people, but not your own? Even when your neighbor's government is impotent to do anything about it? ) but it appears you were a bit aggitated when you wrote; perhaps you can clarify. I expect your aspersion 'thinly veiled racism' was an attempt to goad me; I honestly don't have any idea what you're talking about on this topic, either. Suffice it to say, no; no racism, and no logical fallacy. Perhaps it's attributable to markedly different experiences, recognizing that my midwest /rural life is quite different than you, and perhaps TomF, have experienced. We have cowboys (and Indians) but not many gangsters out here.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Face it folks, the Israelis and their 'enemies' are all cut from the same cloth. There are no side in this one from a moral standpoint, just a political one

[LeeG]

Cluster munitions often fall to the ground unexploded, and they're yellow and resemble toys, which is why so many children are hurt and killed by them...

it's this kind that have been identified as used by the IDF. My understanding is that the artillery shell dispenses the submunitions in the air and they explode on impact. The number of duds is somewhere between 3%-10% but I haven't got a firm number. They were used in Iraq in some urban settings so I wondered if they were used in urban settings in Lebanon. A rough estimate is that the submuntions in one shell would spread 15,000 pieces of shrapnel moving at 5,000-9,000 fps. 88(-10%dud) submunitionsx 200 fragments=16,ooofragments. Sounds like it would shred things within the target area.



http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m483.htm

[George.]

I guess I can't appreciate how different our culture is from Brazils. I was going to say corrupt, but perhaps that isn't correct. I can't imagine the scenario described, and a citizenry, or elected government, allowing it.


And yet it happens. Why? A combination of political underdevelopment, corruption, and poverty. Gangsters co-opt both police (corruption) and slum residents (poverty) with their drug money. And much of Brazil's electorate is rather naive and narrow-minded at the polls. A result of there having passed less than twenty years, or four election cycles, since democracy was re-established. As a result, our government is much more inept, corrupt, and torn by infighting than yours is. And a lot of the people elected from slum districts are either allies of the criminals or criminals themselves.

So the analogy with Lebanon stands. They have even less experience with democracy - political underdevelopment. And corruption and poverty are issues. So a criminal gang (Hezbollah) manages to not only operate, like the mafia does in the US, but also to acquire political power and control physical territory. The government is powerless to stop them. Like Brazil's government vis-a-vis the gangsters, it actually has to negotiate a coexistence, as the alternative - all out war against the criminals, going after them in their lairs - would cause mass civilian casualties, and thus be politically unfeasible in a democracy.

So you would not expect Brazil to shell the slums and go in with guns blazing, killing ten innocents for every bad guy, in order to get rid of the gangs. If you are consistent, you would also not expect the government in Beirut to shell the Hezbollah strongholds and go in with guns blazing, killing ten innocents for every bad guy, in order to get rid of them.

So why would you support Israel in doing so?

[TomF]

There are, so far as I can see no clean hands, though some are certainly cleaner than others. As Paul says, dead children are just as dead, no matter who pulls the trigger.

There are only negotiated solutions to political problems. Military solutions, even "final solutions" are never final. They merely prolong and inflame the hatred and killing. The question really is whether enough people on all sides will tire of watching children die and actually agree to a political solution with their children's killers. I'm not holding my breath.

[George Jung]

So you would not expect Brazil to shell the slums and go in with guns blazing, killing ten innocents for every bad guy, in order to get rid of the gangs. If you are consistent, you would also not expect the government in Beirut to shell the Hezbollah strongholds and go in with guns blazing, killing ten innocents for every bad guy, in order to get rid of them.

So why would you support Israel in doing so?

Maybe you didn't notice the shift there, George. You say you wouldn't expect a (weak) citizenry/country/government to shell their own people in order to eradicate the mob element. You'd expect some sort of 'understanding', the government working with the mob, so to speak.

That certainly doesn't apply to Beirut and Israel - two separate entities/countries. Lebanon may not be 'able' to root out Hizbollah; I don't see how that transfers to Israel defending its own borders, and people. And in this particular scenario, if the militants and their armaments choose to hide amongst the citizens, they will - understandably - be shelled, as well. It's a conscious decision on the part of Hizbollah, and the outcome is as they intended. It falls squarely on them.

[George.]

I really don't understand why you apply different moral constraints to the government of Lebanon and that of Israel.

If the gov. of Lebanon shelled the villages and districts of Beirut where Hezbollah lurks, killing hundreds of innocent citizens, would you support it or condemn it?

Why would the very same action, performed by a different party, be judged differently?

[geeman]

So, Israel should stand down and allow Hezbolla to remain in Lebanon and continue their tactics?Stand down and have dialog with the country that cant control what happens within its own borders? Bull.

[George.]

the country that cant control what happens within its own borders?

That describes perhaps 80% of the nation-states in the world - including almost all outside the US, the EU, and Japan.

And that, perhaps, explains why I and some of my American friends differ in opinion when it comes to things like Lebanon.

[George Jung]

I think you've made a nice strawman; the correct answer is, in the one instance, it's a nation/state dealing with a criminal element, within their own society. In the other, it's a nation/state dealing with an act of war committed by citizens of another country. So simple; I don't see why you are having such a hard time understanding the difference.

[Osborne Russell]

That describes perhaps 80% of the nation-states in the world - including almost all outside the US, the EU, and Japan.

And that, perhaps, explains why I and some of my American friends differ in opinion when it comes to things like Lebanon.

Complete "control" of the borders is not to be expected, but preventing the home turf from being used as the staging ground for attack is.

[Peter Malcolm Jardine]

Those children were terrists. Condie and Dubya said so

[martin schulz]

So, Israel should stand down and allow Hezbolla to remain in Lebanon and continue their tactics?Stand down and have dialog with the country that cant control what happens within its own borders? Bull.

No, Bull is what is happening right now and it will archieve nothing at all. On the contrary it will just help Hezbollah to get more popularity. Will that help Israel tomorrow? Probably not.
The term "military solution" is an oxymoron.

The only way is to undermine the Hezbollah position instead of strengthening it - quite easy to see. Unfortunately that takes much more time and will of course only be possible by standing still and holding the other cheek. But then perhaps this is the sacrifice Israel has to make for living at a place nobody wanted them to live.