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View Full Version : What went wrong - an alternative viewpoint



Wayne Jeffers
07-27-2006, 06:10 AM
A most excellent study published by the Strategic Studies Institute of the U. S. Army War College (free download): http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/display.cfm?PubID=637

From the Summary:


. . . According to many critics, civilian planners made a series of critical mistakes that have turned what might have been a successful war and occupation into a fiasco. . . .

Operation IRAQI FREEDOM was in basic respects a test of the theory that civilians must intervene in the military planning process and force their perspectives down the chain of command. Though the record of Iraq war planning does nothing to advance the case for civilian activism, critics also have neglected the larger lesson that there are certain limits to what military power can accomplish. For certain purposes, like the creation of a liberal democratic society that will be a model for others, military power is a blunt instrument, destined by its very nature to give rise to unintended and unwelcome consequences. Rather than “do it better next time,” a better lesson is “don’t do it at all.” . . .

Wayne

LeeG
07-27-2006, 08:36 AM
What a wicked web we weave....

Gonzalo
07-27-2006, 08:48 AM
The strategic studies institute is a paid shill for the radiacal liberal left wing agenda to discredit, for political gain, the defense of the United States by our current administration.

The Army war college is staffed by disgruntled third string officers loyal to Shinseki. All of them lied to win their medals and falsified their service records. Their mothers wear Army shoes and their fathers drink Perrier. They all drive chick cars.

Thought I'd get it in first.

martin schulz
07-27-2006, 08:55 AM
Their mothers wear Army shoes and their fathers drink Perrier. They all drive chick cars.

I see nothing wrong with that - just wish I could afford a chick car. But what is wrong about drinking Perrier escapes me.

Gonzalo
07-27-2006, 08:58 AM
Men who drink Perrier don't have the gronicles to do what needs to be done--nor do their sons. It completely invalidates any opinion they may have when contrary to administration policy.

That should be obvious.

LeeG
07-27-2006, 09:12 AM
It's hard to pronounce

Keith Wilson
07-27-2006, 09:40 AM
The strategic studies institute is a paid shill for the radical liberal left wing agenda to discredit, for political gain, the defense of the United States by our current administration.

The Army war college is staffed by disgruntled third string officers loyal to Shinseki. All of them lied to win their medals and falsified their service records. Their mothers wear Army shoes and their fathers drink Perrier. They all drive chick cars.:D :D :D :D :D You forgot necrophilia!

The abstract (I'll read the rest when I have more time)


Though critics have made a number of telling points against the Bush administration's conduct of the Iraq war, the most serious problems facing Iraq and its American occupiers—criminal anarchy and lawlessness, a raging insurgency and a society divided into rival and antagonistic groups—were virtually inevitable consequences that flowed from the act of war itself. Military and civilian planners were culpable in failing to plan for certain tasks, but the most serious problems had no good solution. Even so, there are lessons to be learned. These include the danger that the imperatives of "force protection" may sacrifice the broader political mission of U.S. forces and the need for skepticism over the capacity of outsiders to develop the skill and expertise required to reconstruct decapitated states.

Osborne Russell
07-27-2006, 10:19 AM
Though the record of Iraq war planning does nothing to advance the case for civilian activism, critics also have neglected the larger lesson that there are certain limits to what military power can accomplish. For certain purposes, like the creation of a liberal democratic society that will be a model for others, military power is a blunt instrument, destined by its very nature to give rise to unintended and unwelcome consequences. Rather than “do it better next time,” a better lesson is “don’t do it at all.” . . .

I don't get it. This is the very thing that the critics tried to explain to the Chimperor. He's the one that "neglected" it.

LeeG
07-27-2006, 10:28 AM
At some point one might consider that spreading chaos and instability is one of the acceptable outcomes.

B_B
07-27-2006, 10:32 AM
At some point one might consider that spreading chaos and instability is one of the acceptable outcomes.

if not the desired outcome

LeeG
07-27-2006, 10:52 AM
article suggesting the same:

http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=98894

The administration's destabilization strategy, as convincingly laid out by Cohen, was not, however, limited to Russia. The ambitions of top administration officials and their supporters, after all, were world-spanning. (It wasn't for nothing that the neocons and allied pundits began talking about us as the planet's New Rome back in 2002, while we were tearing up treaties, setting up secret prisons, and preparing to launch our first "preventive" war.) In retrospect, it seems clear that destabilization was their modus operandi. Despite what some have argued in relation to Iraq (and elsewhere in the Middle East), they were undoubtedly not voting for chaos per se. What they were eager to do was put the strategically most significant and contested regions of the planet "in play," using the destabilization card, always assuming in every destabilization situation that the chips would fall on their side of the gaming table, and that, if worse came to worse, even chaos would turn out to be to their benefit.

Meerkat
07-27-2006, 01:54 PM
IMO, the proximate cause of the failure of the Iraq War was a power struggle between the DoS and the DoD and can be laid most directly at the feet of Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Cheney and George Bush.

Bush's signal failing has been to allow the VP to exercise authority not granted him under the Constitution (can we say "unitary executive"? ;)).

Gonzalo
07-27-2006, 02:21 PM
...But what is wrong about drinking Perrier escapes me.Martin,

Perrier was the first of the expensive bottled sparkling waters to grace our soil back in the 1980s, and it was (is?) considered by some to be "precious," or over-refined. By stereotype, if not in reality, American men are uncomfortable with refinement, as if it is not completely manly. In my weak satire, I exaggerated this stereotype to imply that men who drink Perrier lack the manly strength to be good soldiers. I had no intent to smear anyone in Europe or elsewhere who enjoys Perrier. I like sparkling water a lot myself, but the Perrier brand is a little pricey for me.

ahp
07-27-2006, 02:27 PM
When you don't have an answer, smear the questioner, a stardard propaganda method.

Meerkat
07-27-2006, 02:30 PM
Darned hard to be a Perrier drinker in a beer and pork rinds society. ;)

P.I. Stazzer-Newt
07-27-2006, 02:36 PM
Eau dear.

Keith Wilson
07-27-2006, 03:12 PM
Eau galle!

(an actual town in Wisconsin, BTW, pronounced phonetically)

Meerkat
07-27-2006, 03:14 PM
Egads!

LeeG
07-27-2006, 03:46 PM
eau vey!

Meerkat
07-27-2006, 03:53 PM
eau du toilette!

Rick Starr
07-27-2006, 04:36 PM
So let me get this straight.

Finally, after a reasonable period of (thorough) analysis, an actual, credible and well respected source comes out with a report which says moreorless what you want it too, and the best you can offer is some sort of absurd "Beavis and Butthead" imitation?

Furthermore, having scanned the report, there is much in it which flies in the face of the cliches many on the left here have been harping on about over the years. Claiming any sort of vindication from this article for many of you merely indicates you haven't read it, or are incapable of digesting more than the precis in the topic header.

To reverse an old truism, I'm sorry to have to tell you that although some of you indeed may have found a nut, this does not mean that you are suddenly no longer blind squirrels.

Well done Wayne on the post. Thanks.

LeeG
07-27-2006, 04:56 PM
Rick, it's like this. With too many nuts the squirrel can afford to toss a few around.

Rick Starr
07-27-2006, 04:57 PM
That is precisely the point.

With one exception: that it vindicates NONE of the rabid foamingatthemouth leftleaning voices who have chosen to anchor their diatribes in vitriol rather than in facts, as this report seems to have.

If some clown here makes up or distorts a 'fact' to try to prove a point, and later the point is proven valid, our clown is still a liar and is by no means vindicated.

LeeG
07-27-2006, 05:03 PM
yeah

Ed Harrow
07-27-2006, 06:51 PM
...

If some clown here makes up or distorts a 'fact' to try to prove a point, and later the point is proven valid, our clown is still a liar and is by no means vindicated.

"One is only perceived wise by saying nothing." ;)

JimD
07-27-2006, 07:00 PM
The Army war college is staffed by disgruntled third string officers loyal to Shinseki. All of them lied to win their medals and falsified their service records. Their mothers wear Army shoes and their fathers drink Perrier. They all drive chick cars.

And they pimp out their daughters. Don't forget that. They oughta be ashamed of themselves.

botebum
07-27-2006, 07:07 PM
by Meer-
"Darned hard to be a Perrier drinker in a beer and pork rinds society."
Easy David, today is the 27th. and you know where I live.
Oh yeah, And What The Hell Is Wrong With Beer And Pork Rinds!? :D

Doug

WX
07-27-2006, 07:08 PM
Gee, I thought Bush and crew developed their invasion plans for Iraq after a rather long night dropping acid.

Meerkat
07-27-2006, 07:08 PM
The Army war college is staffed ... They all drive chick cars.
:eek: Does this mean Chad is now an officer? :eek:

:D

Osborne Russell
07-27-2006, 07:30 PM
Furthermore, having scanned the report, there is much in it which flies in the face of the cliches many on the left here have been harping on about over the years.

Like what?

LeeG
07-27-2006, 08:51 PM
you know,,,much

Domesticated_Mr. Know It All
07-27-2006, 09:26 PM
http://buckfush.com/images/George_Bush_Al_Faisal_Condi.jpg

Rick Starr
07-28-2006, 06:21 AM
"One is only perceived wise by saying nothing." ;)

And yet that is the argument one hears against Bush here all the time.

*yawn*

Overall, I guess Beevis and Butthead carry the day.

:rolleyes:

LeeG
07-28-2006, 06:40 AM
Like what?

if you want to play in the peanut gallery you gotta bring your own nuts