Did the Israel PM threaten to use a NUKE?

[Meerkat]

"We will not hesitate to take the most severe actions."

:eek:

[ljb5]

Gosh, I hope not!

It really seems that a nuke would not be a logical weapon to use against a close neighbor like Lebanon. Especially because their efforts there are (at least in theory) directed against guerrillas, not civilians.

I worry that, if they were seriously considering a nuke, it would imply the introduction of a different enemy such as Iran.

[LeeG]

context, link por favor?

seems to me that destroying southern lebanon is severe. All those bunker busters we sold Israel last year must be getting some use.

[Meerkat]

Seen on CBS News - interview (press conference?) with the Israeli PM.

A tactical nuke doesn't have to be dirty nor have all that large an effect, at least physically. Psychologically - WOW!

[Chris Coose]

War is thrilling.

[paladin]

a couple of nukes in the right place might have some effect...like downtown Syria and Iran....

[Meerkat]

:mad: Best shot would be to drop one on Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina. Wouldn't discount the benefit of one on the Vatican too! :mad:

A CURSE on MEM's!

[KNOCKABOUT]

I hadn't thought of this, but you know what... it makes perfect sense.

[B_B]

I hadn't thought of this, but you know what... it makes perfect sense.

nuking Lebanon in general or nuking Jerusalem, Mecca, Medina and Rome?

[KNOCKABOUT]

a tactical nuke on Southern Lebanon. A horrific scenario to be sure, but I could see it...

[skuthorp]

I think the whole Israeli reaction is about Iran. Don't mess with us! Lebanon is just 'for example'. And yes, if the situation got out of hand I don't think they'd hesitate, and if they felt really threatened well there's the 'we'll take you all with us' scenario.
Nasty situation, requiring fine judgement and skilled diplomacy on all sides. Trouble is I can't see where it's likely to come from.

[WX]

Wouldn't that be tantamount to genocide? Something the Jewish people should be very sensitive about...or is this a case of do unto others as they have done to you?

[skuthorp]

When your'e enemies are talking 'extermination' from an ostensibly religious viewpoint, aqnd the Jewish people remember what happens when you turn the other cheek..........
Of course people are people, want the same thing mostly, peace, a little prosperity, family, a job, but some how we fall easily into the thrall of demagogues and charlatans, we even elect them. I was looking at Meer's line
" Best shot would be to drop one on Jerusalem, Mecca and Medina. Wouldn't discount the benefit of one on the Vatican too!"
but I think that after the shock we'd be at it even worse in about 12 months. Maybe Lovelock's predictions are the best hope for the species after all.

[George Roberts]

If you search for nuke on this site, you will see I have recommended the use prior to this.

I hate it when a government steals my ideas and does not give me credit.

[Bob Cleek]

As a democratic society that thinks democracy is the highest form of government, shouldn't we hold ALL the people in a nation responsible for THEIR government's actions? I'm getting a bit tired of this "poor civilians" crap. We've all seen those "civilians" cheering in the streets after 9-11. If I were president, I'd be telling the citizens of those "Axis of Evil" countries that they'd better clean up their government's act or it's their neck in the noose. We don't need to create the fiction of "poor oppressed masses" to justify self-protective warfare. Imagine what would happen if Israel simply told Syria and Lebanon, or even Iran, "Get rid of Hezbollah, or we'll be nuking your capital next week." It would only take one tactical nuke to wipe out, say, fifty percent of Beirut. That would end it all right then and there. Problem is, we keep letting these terrorists think they have a chance to win.

Think about it. If you knew for slam dunk certain that your whole block was going to be reduced to rubble if they find the guy down the street is storing rockets in his garage... how long would it take you to snitch him off?

[pcford]

As a democratic society that thinks democracy is the highest form of government, shouldn't we hold ALL the people in a nation responsible for THEIR government's actions? I'm getting a bit tired of this "poor civilians" crap. We've all seen those "civilians" cheering in the streets after 9-11. If I were president, I'd be telling the citizens of those "Axis of Evil" countries that they'd better clean up their government's act or it's their neck in the noose. (snips)

Mr. Cleek, I nominate you for the stupidest post of the month of July.

Congratulations. There's something about people that are ignorant and obviously proud of it.

[WX]

Mr Cleek, I hereby hold you personally responsible for all the wrongs committed by the United Staes of America, please present yourself to the war crimes tribunal at The Hague at you earliest convenience.
Thank you and have nice day.

[Paul Girouard]

#1: I think the whole Israeli reaction is about Iran.

#2: Lebanon is just 'for example'.

#3: And yes, if the situation got out of hand I don't think they'd hesitate, and if they felt really threatened well there's the 'we'll take you all with us' scenario.

#4: Trouble is I can't see where it's likely to come from.



#1: Yes it's about Iran , sure enough . Iran getting Hezbollah to do the dirty work while they (Iran) work on those nuke's:mad: So ya it's about Iran in a way:rolleyes:

#2: Israel is reacting to Hezbollah's CONTINUED arms build up along the border and the killing of 7 IDF soldiers and hostage taking of 2 other IDF personnel.

#3: Just ask Hezbollah how out of hand ,

Hezbollah: Israeli Onslaught a Surprise


BEIRUT, Lebanon (AP) - A senior Hezbollah official said Tuesday the guerrillas did not expect Israel to react with an all-out offensive after the capture of two soldiers, the first acknowledgment by the group that it had miscalculated the consequences of the raid two weeks ago.http://apnews.myway.com//article/20060726/D8J3DOGG7.html


BTW Google Samson option for your overall answer.


#4: Where does help generally come from ?

[Meerkat]

What's with the giant type?

[Paul Girouard]

What's with the giant type?

Cut and paste of the headline title from the linked site . Just the size they use on My Way News .

Edited to add at least on my screen the Bold type is just( Hezbollah : Israeli onslaught a surprise)

[Meerkat]

You can remove text formating with the right-most icon on the editing control. Highlight the text and then click the icon. Looks like of like a double A.

[skuthorp]

Paul, I'm not siding with either of them, and the grievance goes back BC. Just saying WW2 taught a lot af lessons and is still influencing reactions. Granted they'd not be so aggressive without 'big brother', but it will all end in tears if 'we' can't broker some sort of compromise.
Of course having a 'war' with a geurilla group is a contradiction, but you can with their sponsors. This works both ways of course and it depends how and who defines 'geurilla', 'terrorist' or 'freedom fighter'.

[PeterSibley]

This works both ways of course and it depends how and who defines 'geurilla', 'terrorist' or 'freedom fighter'.

We do of course, meaning the West,until they become the government...like the ANC.

I'm pretty sure Israel is boosting Hezboolah's recruiting beyond their wildest dreams.There is nothing like a terrorist attack to radicalise a country and this attack by Israel has gone well beyond the required military response...it's now terror out and out .

[Wild Wassa]

"I'm pretty sure Israel is boosting Hezboolah's recruiting beyond their wildest dreams."

Why do you say that Pete?

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid210/p4e3228ef4abc8ac5dec5fa28db6b1de6/edd1bce4.jpg


It is only just a continuation of the cycle. I've got my cross cross to bear (or a Tasar thwart anyway), and like all good cultures that have an extreme persecution complex, we have no time to be involved in trivia like caring about the innocent, we have to act now ... because we are all on a path of liberation. We will guarantee future generations of 'the persecuted', that they will have a chance to play liberating games from oppression ... just like us. We need to be persecuted, it is in our culture. Persecution ... then liberation. We can't get by without perpetuating the persecution ... and if the big one is dropped during our liberation, we will guarantee our 'valued persecution' is immortalized ... again.

You'll see me in the Valley of the Martyrs ... unless I see you first.

Wassa Arafat-Feldman.

[formerlyknownasprince]

nice blinkers mate

[Phillip Allen]

Nice pic... (chuckling quietly)

[paladin]

Having vacationed in sunny Libya for a while, 40-45 years ago, and they didn't like us then...we were "occupiers".....and places as friendly as Greece, Saudi, Iraq, and a few dozen others, the locals saw most of us as visitors.....a minority saw us as something else, a symbol...it's the minority that is compelled to make the statement....I was in China when it was off limits, and the former Soviet Union when we were not "friends"....and it's always a very few that do the sabre rattling...

[martin schulz]

I wonder why we are not able to learn from "them".
Terrorist group or not, apart from the military branch the Hisbollah also has a humanitarian branch that provides hospitals, kindergardens and schools for the poor in Lebanon. So does the Hamas.

No wonder they are able to root in the peoples hearts.

How about Israel investing large scale in social projects in Palestine and Lebanon (instead of holding back the EU development aid) - can't be more expensive than this current war, can it?
(I am probably too naive)

[PeterSibley]

How about Israel investing large scale in social projects in Palestine and Lebanon (instead of holding back the EU development aid) - can't be more expensive than this current war, can it?
(I am probably too naive)

That sounds like an excellent idea,it might work, it might not ...but the current method is going to do nothing but produce another generation of Israeli haters...with very good reasons for their feelings.

[geeman]

I wonder how I would feel if I lived close to a border,and had to worry about unwanted people crossing that border and taking hostages and/or killing before they crawled back across their border and hid?

[martin schulz]

I wonder how I would feel if I lived close to a border,and had to worry about unwanted people crossing that border and taking hostages and/or killing before they crawled back across their border and hid?

That can happen anywhere for several reasons (terrorism, crime, drug-gang wars...).
The question is:
How would you feel if a bordering nation attacks your hometown with bombs and missiles because a terrorist group from your place (you might not even know) kidnapped 2 soldiers?

Would you think: "Yeah right, that's ok I should have known they will flatten my hometown because of those criminals operating from here"
Or would you think: "F***, why do they bomb us and try to kill my family and people I know? We just live our lifes and have nothing to do with those people that went over to capture 2 soldiers.

[Dan McCosh]

Think about it. If you knew for slam dunk certain that your whole block was going to be reduced to rubble if they find the guy down the street is storing rockets in his garage... how long would it take you to snitch him off?


This worked well for the Nazis in Europe, among others. Pretty basic stuff.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

If you search for nuke on this site, you will see I have recommended the use prior to this.

I hate it when a government steals my ideas and does not give me credit.

Another ASTOUNDING reason why George and I will never ever see eye to eye on ANYTHING. :eek: :eek: :eek: The guy is certifiable :rolleyes:

I become less and less pro Israel every day :(

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

The thing that NO ONE grasps is the tribal Muslim societies do not think in 30 sec sound bites, half time shows, or have 1/2 hr sitcom attention spans. They think GENERATIONAL. If Israel nukes anything the great great grandchildren that haven't been born yet will remember it and they will be fighting the infidels FOREVER!!!!!!

Take a lil look at history please.

http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761561210/Crusades.html

[Osborne Russell]

This worked well for the Nazis in Europe, among others. Pretty basic stuff.

Makes you wonder why the Republicans thought Iraq would be different.

[John of Phoenix]

What goes around comes around.

And those people do not ever forget.
Israel would foolish to use nukes in anything but a survival situation.

And yes, we'll have to pay the price for our Iraqi screw up.

[Lew Barrett]

Back to the original supposition: the statement does not imply nukes of itself.

The actions Israel has taken are severe. You see the stated threat coming real enough without WMDs being employed. The argument in this thread is for entertainment value only. Personally, I feel safer with nukes in Israeli hands than Hezbollah, whatever the merits of the current actions in Lebanon. Imagine Iran, the Palestinians or others, with nukes. All you'd ever hear from the middle east then would be blood chilling reminders.
Lew


"We will not hesitate to take the most severe actions."

:eek:

[Meerkat]

No, it does not, but I think there's an implication there...

I saw the press conference again last evening on BBC World News. It was the joint press conference with that Rice person who, once more, came across as a total light weight.

I correct myself as to the exact wording of the quote: "We will not hesitate to take the most severe measures...," spoken by the Israeli PM.

[Meerkat]

I am not anti-Israel. I'm against any big guy picking on a weaker guy, as it were. Israel has done this once or twice before (into Lebanon) and, based on current events, it has not worked. There has to be another way. As ME nations go, IMO Lebanon is one of the most approachable. It does not have a dominant Muslim culture, in fact it has 14 different religions in the country and they mostly get along quite well (albeit living parallel lives). I doubt the majority of Lebanese have any investment in Hezbollah, except insofar as they have been a charitable organization.

Lebanon could once again be the Switzerland of the ME as it once was. I favor that and I bet they do too!

[Wild Wassa]

It didn't take long for Hezbollah to kick the Israelis' sorry arses out of Lebanon today, "They came at us with their RPG's from narrow allies." ... or are you guys watching US TV still? As a guy on CNN said, "we can't show this news in the US, in the US it is unpalatable for the viewing audience." That is the Israeli lobby that stops the truth from being shown in the US.

... and that is the thing about tribes that thrive on having extreme persecution complexes, they can't admit to it. Hezbollah kicked their sorry arses out of Lebanon twenty years ago ... and the Israelis and their lap dogs, the US Administration, pick on civillians to justify their liberation ... and the US believes their bull****.

The US gave a soul cleansing indulgences to Lebanon in the form of humanitarian aid this week ... but at the same time the US delivered laser guided bombs and fuel supplies to the Israeli military. The humanitarian aid will cover the US's arse ... just incase Hezbollah wins again?

Even the political hoe Rice, speaks with an ear phone inserted ... you just do what you are told Rice (and be greatful for at least one insertion). This is so contrived, it is 'septically' sickening.

Warren.

[Gonzalo]

...shouldn't we hold ALL the people in a nation responsible for THEIR government's actions?


Mr Cleek, I hereby hold you personally responsible for all the wrongs committed by the United Staes of America, please present yourself to the war crimes tribunal at The Hague at you earliest convenience. Better yet, we hold your children responsible for all the wrongs, etc. And if you don't have children any others will do, since responsibility is collective. And since responsibility is collective it doesn't really matter who we punish. The more convenient the better.

Think about your own family and see if you are willing to have them held responsible for any grievances that Hisbollah, Al Quada, Hamas, or any other terrorist organization has against our country.

Collective responsibility is morally bankrupt no matter who practices it.

[Lew Barrett]

You are supplying the implication as it's not inherint in the statement. The most severe measures are currently in force. The Israelis won't use nukes here. It doesn't pay. They aren't the suicide bombers. The supposition of this thread is not inherint in the statement.
I don't know if Rice is technically a lightweight or just working for the wrong team. Either way, it's impossible to admire her; and, I'll add, to know when to trust her.
Lew




No, it does not, but I think there's an implication there...

I saw the press conference again last evening on BBC World News. It was the joint press conference with that Rice person who, once more, came across as a total light weight.

I correct myself as to the exact wording of the quote: "We will not hesitate to take the most severe measures...," spoken by the Israeli PM.

[PatCox]

The problem isn't that Israel will use nukes, its that they have them. They have no motivation, ever, to compromise or back down on anything, so long as they are held up and empowered by us, and as long as they have their nukes in their back pocket.

[Meerkat]

I agree that I'm making an inference that may not be there, but it IS one of Israel's playing cards and I'm sure they want people to remember it.

Rice's failing, whatever her intellectual abilities, is that she does not have the gravitas that's needed for the job of Secretary of State. She looks, acts, dresses and talks like a lightweight. Frankly, neither does the Resident Bozo.

[Lew Barrett]

Taking a page (loosely) from the Mencken thread, and as I'm in the mood to be picky, it's not about gravitas, it's about integrity. It's lacking. I think she's probably a pretty bright lady. She speaks well etc etc, unlike her boss. Otto Skorzeny was a bright fellow too. He happened to be on the wrong team.
But I'm hypothesizing. Whatever she is, she's hooked up with a bunch of liars, ergo......

Lew


Rice's failing, whatever her intellectual abilities, is that she does not have the gravitas that's needed for the job of Secretary of State. She looks, acts, dresses and talks like a lightweight. Frankly, neither does the Resident Bozo.

[Lew Barrett]

I've been suggesting that we not confuse the fact that they have them with the fact that they are going to use them here and now. Why should they be the ones to back down on this? Or compromise their borders? Nukes are deterrents primarily against nukes, not against boredr incursions. Pat, I've always been of the impression that the Israelis developed their own nuclear weapons, mostly with French help at the start. In fact, Israeli policy regarding nuclear weapons has pretty much always run counter to US wishes. I guess they feel like they need their own.
Lew

[Lew Barrett]

The following doesn't necessarily flatter Israel, it's intended to demonstrate how they came by their weaponry.
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/
Probably the only people that are really happy the Israelis have nukes are the Israelis; sort of how it goes with Pakistan.....and North Korea? Not our "boys" on this one. Nobody's boys, in fact.
Lew




The problem isn't that Israel will use nukes, its that they have them. They have no motivation, ever, to compromise or back down on anything, so long as they are held up and empowered by us, and as long as they have their nukes in their back pocket.

[Meerkat]

There's been a story circulating for years that the israelis "liberated" their starter supply of plutonium from the Savannah River Plant. If true, they couldn't have done it if the US hadn't looked the other way and held the door open for them...

[Lew Barrett]

Document it.



There's been a story circulating for years that the israelis "liberated" their starter supply of plutonium from the Savannah River Plant. If true, they couldn't have done it if the US hadn't looked the other way and held the door open for them...

[Lew Barrett]

Another, even less flattering view of Israel's French connection. Any simple Google search will turn this stuff up. Try Wikipedia Meer; you use it regularly.

http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/israel/nuke/farr.htm

Point being, you guys are all talking $#1t. If this was about spiling planks, we'd all be debunking these suppositions.
Lew

[Meerkat]

Document that the story has been circulating or the facts of the matter? I may be able to do the former, but I doubt anyone is going to say if it's factual, at least in our lifetimes.

[Donn]

If you have nukes, you don't have to threaten to use them. It's implied.

[Nicholas Carey]

This worked well for the Nazis in Europe, among others. Pretty basic stuff.Yeah, that really put a dent in the Resistance in France. :rolleyes:

[Meerkat]

You can't kill ideas, only people.

[WX]

Meerkat, back in the 60's a ship load of uranium/ radioactive material disappeared.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=LA%2020060128&articleId=1838

[WX]

Hell, they even fired on a US liberty ship that was being used to observe Israeli action against Egypt back in the 60's.
Now they've taken out a clearly marked UN observation post in Lebanon that had been there for years.

[PeterSibley]

Yeah, that really put a dent in the Resistance in France. :rolleyes:

You're right ...it really did .:(

[Don Olney]

Hell, they even fired on a US liberty ship that was being used to observe Israeli action against Egypt back in the 60's.


That was the USS Liberty in 1967 and they didn't just fire on it, they killed 34 U.S. sailors.

[Don Olney]

I wonder how I would feel if I lived close to a border,and had to worry about unwanted people crossing that border and taking hostages and/or killing before they crawled back across their border and hid?

Move to Texas, Arizona, New Mexico or Southern California and find out.

[Lew Barrett]

David,
This is how Israel got the bomb, and this is what it's purpose is. They won't be using it in Lebanon. It's principle value is of course as a threat so you're half right. The documentation is so widespread about France's participation and the motivation that the rest is malarky. The US may be guilty of many things, but giving Israel the bomb isn't one of them. Your documents? Any documents?


Israel reveals secrets of how it gained bomb
By Inigo Gilmore in Jerusalem
(Filed: 23/12/2001)

A TELEVISION documentary in which Shimon Peres, Israel's foreign minister, discloses for the first time details about Israel's acquisition of nuclear weapons is to be broadcast in the Arab world. It is intended, at a time of rising tensions, as a warning.


Mordechai Vanunu: jailed for the Israeli nuclear programme
In the documentary, Mr Peres goes further than any other Israeli official in confirming that the Jewish state has a nuclear capability. He and former French government officials give details about co-operation between Israel and France in launching Israel's nuclear programme.

The film, made by a leading Israeli documentary team, is a sign that the government may be finally relaxing its rule of absolute silence on its nuclear programme. Mordechai Vanunu, a technician at the Dimona nuclear facility, is serving an 18-year jail sentence for revealing in 1986 that Israel had a nuclear programme and more than 100 warheads.

The documentary, The Bomb in the Basement: Israel's Nuclear Option, was shown in Israel last month and is being sold to leading Arabic television stations including Al-Jazeera, the Qatar-based satellite channel.

The makers of the film believe that the government's co-operation in speaking about the origins of its nuclear capability was prompted by concerns over international terrorism and the expectation that Iran will have a nuclear capability within a few years.

The documentary's Israeli director, Michael Karpin, who previously made a controversial film about the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, said he was not sure until a few weeks ago whether military censors would allow the programme to be broadcast.

"It could be that after September 11 they [the government] decided that perhaps the time had come to reveal a little bit more about the Israeli nuclear project," Mr Karpin said. "I think the decision to let it go ahead has to do with the idea of wanting to tell the Arab world: 'Listen we have it'."

The film reveals how France helped Israel on its nuclear programme in exchange for support in the Suez War. In the mid-1950s, relations between the two countries were warming because of their shared anxiety over burgeoning nationalist movements in North Africa.

Israel feared that the rise of Gamal Abdel Nasser in Egypt would embolden an already formidable foe, while France faced an Arab insurrection in Algeria, one of its last colonies. Their interests converged in 1956 when Israel agreed to team up with France and Britain in a war to punish Nasser for nationalising the Suez Canal.

At the end of September 1956, in Sevres near Paris, Mr Peres, then a 30-year-old Defence Ministry official, accompanied David Ben-Gurion, Israel's first prime minister, to a meeting with French and British delegations about the Suez crisis. The Israelis waited for the British delegation to leave before approaching the French on the matter of its nuclear project.

Mr Peres said: "In Sevres, when it was all over, I told Ben-Gurion, 'There's one piece of unfinished business: the nuclear issue. Before you agree, let me finish that.' Of the four countries which at that time had a nuclear capacity - the United States, the Soviet Union, Great Britain and France - only France was willing to help us."

Mr Peres is asked in the documentary whether Israel requested a nuclear reactor. He replies: "I asked for more than that. I asked for other things, too; the uranium and those things. I went up to Ben-Gurion and said, 'It's settled.' That's how it was."

Mr Ben-Gurion approved Israel's participation in the Suez campaign. On October 29, 1956, 400 Israeli paratroopers were dropped in western Sinai in the first phase of the attack on Egypt.

The agreement with France was unprecedented. Until then, no country had supplied another with the means for developing a nuclear capability. Mr Karpin believes that Mr Peres may have been motivated to speak on the subject because he hopes that it will help to secure his place in history.

In Paris, Jean-Francois Daguzan, the deputy director of the Foundation for Strategic Research, said that France's deal with Israel had been kept a secret for almost 30 years. "It was well known in military and political circles but it didn't become public knowledge until the mid-1980s after a book was published about that era and the agreement was mentioned.

"There was no suggestion that France had given Israel its nuclear capacity but it had certainly helped the country acquire it."

Israel still officially neither confirms nor denies making nuclear weapons at the plant near Dimona. The country's journalists use coded language, never stating unequivocally that Israel has the bomb. The policy of ambiguity was crafted to deter Arabs from attacking Israel while avoiding the political fallout of becoming an acknowledged nuclear power.

The documentary marks the first time that the Israeli broadcasting media has dealt with the issue candidly. Some commentators are surprised that the censors allowed Mr Karpin such leeway as in the past six months Israel has detained an academic over a book he wrote on the country's nuclear capacity and jailed Yitzhak Yaakov, a retired general, for talking to a journalists on the subject.

[Meerkat]

Sure, you're right Lew. After all, everything every government on earth says is the gospel truth and can never be doubted.

What's the truth? I think you would have had to be there to really know.

I said a story has been circulating, not that it was a well documented fact. There are stories circulating about a rabbit hopping down the bunny trail and a man in a red suit who owns flying raindeer. Should I try to document those?

The PM said "the severest measures" - can you think of anything less severe than using a nuclear weapon? I don't KNOW what he meant, but it seems suggestive to me. Your milage obviously varies.

[Paul Girouard]

I said a story has been circulating, not that it was a well documented fact. There are stories circulating about a rabbit hopping down the bunny trail and a man in a red suit who owns flying raindeer. Should I try to document those?




Excellent Idea :D Note large print;)

[Lew Barrett]

You should know better than to suggest I believe everything governments say. The situation on the ground is bad enough; does it require rumors somebody heard someplace and told somebody else to make it appear worse than it is?
You'd rightly be quick enough to support a statement you could prove with a relaible quote, and should I be unable to do the same with my opposing view, you'd soon enough see me back down. I've been wrong before (will again, and could be here) but consider it polite and proper to give the opposition the nod when to all appearances the facts don't support my interpretation, or when I have lost the debate. I hate being found wrong in public, but it has happened, will happen, and I hope I can acknowledge the errors of my beliefs when it happens again. I hope you didn't expect me to remain mute while you suggested "notions" just because the Israelis piss you off. You're my friend, and I hope the inverse is equally true, though the debate is heated, because the topic is hot.

Lew

[PeterSibley]

The only person who believes everything the government says is Donn.:D

[Donn]

Pete me, eater.

[Meerkat]

You're my friend, and I hope the inverse is equally true, though the debate is heated, because the topic is hot.

LewOf course you're my friend, without doubt! Discussions without passion are boring and we are both passionate people!


I hope you didn't expect me to remain mute while you suggested "notions" just because the Israelis piss you off.
Nope and I know we disagree in some ways on this.

Here's were I'm at:
* Israel exists and has a right to continue to do so.
* From what I've read, heard from first hand observers and seen (on TV), Israel's treatment of Palastinians living in Israel/West Bank/Gaza needs drastic improvement and contributes to the problem.
* It is just plain wrong to go burn down the neighbor's house (Lebanon) just because their dogs (Hezbollah) are out of control. In a civil society, one calls the cops before taking things into one's own hands as a last resort, not have to cops come in to break up the fight, as seems likely to happen in this case.
-------------------

I still think the PM was "showing his slip" by the way he phrased his remarks.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Of course you're my friend, without doubt! Discussions without passion are boring and we are both passionate people!


Nope and I know we disagree in some ways on this.

Here's were I'm at:
* Israel exists and has a right to continue to do so.
* From what I've read, heard from first hand observers and seen (on TV), Israel's treatment of Palastinians living in Israel/West Bank/Gaza needs drastic improvement and contributes to the problem.
* It is just plain wrong to go burn down the neighbor's house (Lebanon) just because their dogs (Hezbollah) are out of control. In a civil society, one calls the cops before taking things into one's own hands as a last resort, not have to cops come in to break up the fight, as seems likely to happen in this case.
-------------------

I still think the PM was "showing his slip" by the way he phrased his remarks.

Meerkat, please name three books you have read that deal specifically with the treatment of Palestinians in the territories from the period of 1967 until today. Hell I'll even cut you some chronological slack - anything post 1987 until today will work fine too. I am very curious which books they are, as most are written in Hebrew and Arabic... Also please point out the nearest international police station, damn those international policemen, never one around when you need one...

[Meerkat]

Gee, the Israelis knew one right off: they suggested NATO.

As for books, newspapers and magazines I can cite, sorry, but while I'm a voracious reader with a good memory, I'm not a maintainer of a bibliography of said readings, nor do I recall the names of the Israelis (jewish) that I've talked to who informed my opinions.

Oh, and congratulations on your inference that you can read Hebrew and Arabic. ;)

[KNOCKABOUT]

Gee, the Israelis knew one right off: they suggested NATO.

As for books, newspapers and magazines I can cite, sorry, but while I'm a voracious reader with a good memory, I'm not a maintainer of a bibliography of said readings, nor do I recall the names of the Israelis (jewish) that I've talked to who informed my opinions.

Oh, and congratulations on your inference that you can read Hebrew and Arabic. ;)

And please would you be so kind as to paraphrase your understandings. I am curious... Can you name one book that Thmas Friedman was not the author of? Have you even read Thomas Friedman?

[Meerkat]

Sorry - paraphrase my understandings?

[KNOCKABOUT]

yes, paraphrase your understandings of the various "books, newspapers and magazines" that you cannot cite...

[Meerkat]

Ok, in a nutshell, the Israelis put the Palastinains in ghettos and treat similar infractions far more ferociously than for a Jew. Second point, and in a word: settlers.

[Donn]

yes, paraphrase your understandings of the various "books, newspapers and magazines" that you cannot cite...

ROFLMAO! Want a summary of his reading? Check out Yahoo Headlines and the Bilge.

[Meerkat]

ROFLMAO! Want a summary of his reading? Check out Yahoo Headlines and the Bilge.Blither on, idiot.

I subscribe to "The Economist" - what's your excuse?

Oops, i forgot: Mr. Greenjeans has me on ignore.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Truth is a funny thing Meerkat, often times it wends it way between the supporting evidence of two sides in conflict, and while I generally agree that Palestinians are treated poorly, I dont think you have quite the gist of what went on in the territories. And really we ought seperate the two, as Gaza was an unintentional Israeli possession. So, the west bank, the west bank is hardly a ghetto, there being far fewer refugee camps in the west bank than in Gaza, which aside from the two major cities - is entirely a refugee camp (so much so that when the Egyptians reclaimed the Sinai in 82, they wanted no part of Gaza). And on the topic of your term "ghettos," no Palestinian was ever forced into an enclosure or ghetto, as the common definition denotes a requirement. Moreover, before militant Islam focused itself into displacing political Islam, the west bank was a lovely place where tens of thousands of Israelis would flock to on the weekends. They brought business, they brought good will, and they brought understanding. And so it went for some time. Both sides comingled and benefitted from the arrangement. It is true that nobody ever took a vacation in Gaza, though the beaches are some of the most beautiful Mediterranean beaches I have ever seen (and I've seen plenty).

Now independence movements aside, as I believe the Palestinians stake a valid claim to autonomy, the period prior to 1987 was really very good. I'll go even further, for twenty years it seemed the arrangement was excellent. There are lots of reasons why it collapsed, and mistakes were made on both sides, though bad decisions were generally made disproportionately by the Israelis. But what I do not understand in the tone of your vehemence Meerkat, is how you can be so convinced of something, and generate such anger, when you know close to nothing about the actual events and the temperature of the conflict, and how it has grown over the past 35 years?

[KNOCKABOUT]

ROFLMAO! Want a summary of his reading? Check out Yahoo Headlines and the Bilge.

LOL

[KNOCKABOUT]

Blither on, idiot.

I subscribe to "The Economist" - what's your excuse?

Oops, i forgot: Mr. Greenjeans has me on ignore.

And I have a subscription to "Playboy," yet it doesnt make me any sexier...

[WX]

"Also please point out the nearest international police station, damn those international policemen, never one around when you need one..."

There was one just over the border in Lebanon...unfortunately the Israeli's bombed it and killed 4 UN observers(not really policemen but hey).
Is there a pattern here? The Israeli's don't seem to like observers.
Also it's a bit difficult to get International police on the ground when Israel's major backer happens to have a veto power on the UN security council.

[Meerkat]

And I have a subscription to "Playboy," yet it doesnt make me any sexier...I thought we were talking about exercising your brain, not your penis! :p

[KNOCKABOUT]

It would be nice to have an international police force. But such a thing does not exist. Observers are not policemen, they are observers. And they watched as Hezbollah captured and killed Israeli soldiers over the years, and they watch still as Israel flattens Lebanon. What the hell are they watching?

The UN is ineffectual. I for one wish it were different, and it sounds as if we share that sentiment, but it is just not reality...

[KNOCKABOUT]

I thought we were talking about exercising your brain, not your penis! :p

The only thing that gets exercise on this forum, are the bowels of a very large bull that lives inside you someplace.

[WX]

For the UN to work it must have the power to do so, unfortunately, it was emasculated before it even got started.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Too true...