PFDs - do I still need one if...

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Got to thinking and I am Mister Safety but I wonder if you are in a safety harness and are clipped on with a six foot tether at all times is a PFD redundant?

Candidly most pics you see of boaters reveal no PFDs or safety harnesses being worn which is not a good thing. The context for me though is a glass 26 footer with half ton keel - very stable but hey, things happen. So weigh in. The safety harness I tried on was a whole lot more comfy than even the most expensive inflatable PFD at the local marine supply house. Clearly the key is to always be clipped on. So what do you think?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

You are an adult - that means you get to take responsibility - and you get to make the call.

I've gone boating with a PFD, and without, and been satisfied that I got it right.

I've also had to recover corpses.

Its your call.

[Donn]

How deep do you want to be when the tether is towing you through the water?

[High C]

Some harnesses have an inflatible PFD built in. One of that type might not show up in a photo.

[Bruce Hooke]

In actual use I find a safety harness to be more of a hassle than a PFD. If you need to go forward or down into the cabin you typically have to unclip the teather, and if you are going forward, clip it onto something new. The teather is also one more thing to trip over.

[Bruce Hooke]

Every safety harness should have a way to quickly release yourself from the teather (under load!) in case you are being towed behind the boat and can't get back on board and are in danger of drowning as a result of being hauled through the water. In that situation a PFD would sure be nice so that you would have a better chance of staying afloat until help arrives.

If you are sailing solo in waters where help is unlikely and using some sort of autopilot or other self steering system which would cause the boat to keep sailing along even without a hand on the tiller, I've heard of people rigging some sort of a trip line that is always towed behind the boat so that if you do go overboard you can get to the trip line and disengage the self-steering system. Your chances of hauling yourself back on board if the boat is, say, doing 5 knots, are not good.

[KNOCKABOUT]

PFD's help in recovering your body if something goes dramtically wrong. I would wear one at all times, and I used to swim for a living...

[Nicholas Carey]

In actual use I find a safety harness to be more of a hassle than a PFD. If you need to go forward or down into the cabin you typically have to unclip the teather, and if you are going forward, clip it onto something new.Not if you set up jacklines on deck running the length of the boat. The only time you usually need to clip/unclip is when changing sides on the boat.


The teather is also one more thing to trip over.Not if you get a shock-corded tether like this Wichard model:

http://www.wichard-usa.com/Safety%20Products/_derived/Safety%20Products.htm_txt_7005_tether.gif

[Nicholas Carey]

Every safety harness should have a way to quickly release yourself from the teather (under load!) in case you are being towed behind the boat and can't get back on board and are in danger of drowning as a result of being hauled through the water. In that situation a PFD would sure be nice so that you would have a better chance of staying afloat until help arrives.That's why your rigging knife should be a sheath knife on a lanyard rather than a folding knife -- you can deploy it one-handed.

It also helps to have an etrier rigged on each side of the boat near the transom, and packed in a bag so it can be deployed from the water:

http://www.wichard-usa.com/ProductBulletins/etrier_deployed.jpg

http://www.wichard-usa.com/ProductBulletins/index_2.gif

[Nicholas Carey]

PFD's help in recovering your body if something goes dramtically wrong. I would wear one at all times, and I used to swim for a living...That's right...the PFD isn't for you...it's for your near-and-dear :D

[S/V Laura Ellen]

If you you are sailing solo with an autopilot you should wear your harness. You also should not fall asleep when sailing solo with an autopilot near a shipping channel.:eek:

In Canada an inflatable PFD isn't a PFD if its isn't being worn. If you have an inflatable PFD onboard but are not wearing it you will also need a regular PFD to meet minimum equipment regs.

[ssor]

If you single hand off shore and use an autopilot, have a tripline on the autopilot and wear a tether and harness. if you wear only a pfd you may get to see your boat sail over the horizon and you will die from thirst.

[Bruce Hooke]

Not if you set up jacklines on deck running the length of the boat. The only time you usually need to clip/unclip is when changing sides on the boat.

Not if you get a shock-corded tether like this Wichard model:

http://www.wichard-usa.com/Safety%20Products/_derived/Safety%20Products.htm_txt_7005_tether.gif

I switch sides much more often than I go forward so my feeling is that I'd rather unclip/clip to go forward than to switch sides. Also, some boats do not lend themselves to a full length jack line.

I actually think that a shock-corded teather would be more not less annoying, but I have to admit that I've never tried one. I'd rather not feel a pull on my harness all the time and I'd rather have a teather that lies down flat rather than being up where things can get caught on it.

[Bruce Hooke]

That's why your rigging knife should be a sheath knife on a lanyard rather than a folding knife -- you can deploy it one-handed.

In the extremity of being towed behind a boat that is making knots throught the water and needing to free myself from the teather, I'd rather being yanking on a quick release shackle near my chest than trying to get at and hold onto a knife long enough to cut the teather.

[Nicholas Carey]

Ahh...but quick-release snap shackles fail when you most need them not too. Carabiners don't

[Bruce Hooke]

In my view, the small risk of a quick-release snap shackle failing is a better risk to take than the risk of loosing my grip on my knife when I am attempting to cut the teather, or simply running out of time while trying to get at and use the knife while being tossed and dragged through the water, but this is a judgement each person needs to make for themselves.

Having spent a lot of time around rivers I have a healthy respect for how much force moving water can exert and how hard it can be to do anything when you have to fight moving water to do it, so that may be part of what drives my perspective on the matter.

[Tom Robb]

Does your wife have a nice insurance policy on you?

[JimConlin]

On multihulls which might capsize and happily float inverted, a tether should be long enough to let you reach air.

I recollect one of the early space missions (gemini?) which splashed in the Pacific and floated wrong-way-up. NASA tried to convey that they expected the possibility, but I always wondered. I think they called the attitude "stable 2" .

Please name sources for 'etrier' re-boarding aids.

[Joe ( Cold Spring on Hudson )]

Well this may have nothing to do with the subject but on very hot days out solo sailing Tidbit I routinely fall overboard on purpose ;)

I put on my PFD lash a line around my waist tied off on a cleat, set my course and fall overboard. Ahh instant air conditioning :D. I let the boat pull me gently along as I float along and cool off. Pull myself in over the low freeboard and continue sailing :D

[Hwyl]

Please name sources for 'etrier' re-boarding aids.

It;s a Wichard product Jim.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Ahh...but quick-release snap shackles fail when you most need them not too. Carabiners don't
Sadly wrong.

http://www.wichard-usa.com/Safety%20Products/_derived/Safety%20Products.htm_txt_7005_tether.gif
These are good

But these are much better.
http://www.mailspeedmarine.com/ProductImages/8928.jpg

If the cockpit hard points are in the form of a U-bolt, then the plain snap link can come undone under load - play with one and scare yourself.:eek:

[paladin]

along Tana Mari's cabin top were the typical teak handrails.....inside that was a section of sail track full length of the cabin, each side....using a spring loaded car I could snap myself in when going on deck, pull the release and ride the car anywhere fore and aft.....safety harness was 5 1/5 feet long....just enough to stop me at the lifelines...been bruised and abused but never dunked...

[KNOCKABOUT]

Stearns makes a belt PFD (similar to the ones we used in the Navy) that is entirely unobtrusive - I think they go for 80 dollars. Welll worth the expenditure...

[Tom Robb]

Will a Stearns belt PFD float you face up if unconscious?

[KNOCKABOUT]

Will a Stearns belt PFD float you face up if unconscious?

Its got 15.5 #'s of buoyancy, so it will float most wearers face up, but it is primarily a swimmers pfd (a backstroker). That said it'll float your bloated carcas around till somebody finds it...http://www.woodenboatvb.com/www/vbulletin/upload/images/icons/icon12.gif

[Bruce Hooke]

The only PFD's that will reliably flip you on your back and hold your head above water if you are unconscious are the big, bulky Type I style of lifejackets (the type you see on commercial vessels). To most people, these life jackets are not realistic as something to wear all the time when you are on deck. The cheap horseshoe style life jackets (Type II) may roll you over and hold your head up but they are not the most comfortable thing to wear either. Most people seem to compromise with some sort of vest style life jacket (Type III), which will not roll you over if you are unconscious.

[Tom Robb]

Makes my bloated carcas feel much better. Having a body to bury is a good thing for the family.

[KNOCKABOUT]

Makes my bloated carcas feel much better. Having a body to bury is a good thing for the family.

Exactly, yes. LOL.

[John E Hardiman]

safety harness was 5 1/5 feet long....just enough to stop me at the lifelines...been bruised and abused but never dunked...


I concur... I have tried to pull someone in over the rail that was getting drowned by a harness (by being pulled feet forward through the water). Could not do it and I am 6'4" and could bench press 250# at the time...took 4 of us finaly to pull him in at 5 knots. Never have a harness long enough so you can't reach the toe rail when hanging over the side.

BTW, I ALWAYS wear a PFD jacket also....seen too many face down in the water after a crash jybe.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Harness tether lengths have long been a topic of debate.

This line from the '79 Fastnet stuck.

I was being pinned down by the deck, because my harness line wasn't quite long enough to get my head totally above water.

BBC report (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/witness/august/14/newsid_3541000/3541260.stm)

[John E Hardiman]

Harness tether lengths have long been a topic of debate.


Rule #1...The Sea does not care about you...

Rule #2...See Rule #1....

Rule #3...There is never a best choice...only better ones at the time the decision made....

[George Roberts]

This weekend (must have been night) a fellow was sitting on the deck of his boat. Another boat ran right into his boat.

2 unconscious men in the water. 1 had a life jacket. 1 lived. 1 died.

I think the argument is for a life jacket.

[Tom Robb]

George,
I wondered about your OpenWater Kayaks thingy and looked at your listed jpeg. Interesting. What sort of wood is that on the kayak's deck.
Tom

[almeyer]

Captain,
As noted early in this thread, you're an adult, you take the responsibility, and you make the call. I'll tell you what I do and why, just to give you something to chew on, but what's "right" for you may not be the same as what's "right" for me, and that's okay.

My job requires that I spend some time on the water. Our company safety regs are a little more stringent than state regs. Unless we are inside an enclosed cabin, we are required to wear a PFD. (The state only requires that we have a PFD readily available). I've carried this practice to my own use, and wear a PFD at all times. I tend to agree with the idea that a PFD is not doing you any good if it's not worn, and I don't like the notion of being "leashed" to the boat. Since I'm alone most of the time, it makes sense to me. When I'm sailing, there's a chance that I may get into trouble due to an unexpected gust of wind or I just do something dumb. There's much less risk of me getting myself into trouble when rowing, but I tend not to trust the jet skis and powerboats zipping by me. Admittedly, a PFD is a little uncomfortable during the warm weather months, which down here is from about April through October. Our company doesn't allow the self-inflating PFDs, they did a test a number of years back and found that only about 25% would inflate upon immersion. For warm weather, I wear a mesh type Type III PFD, which is reasonably comfortable, even when the temperature is in the mid-90s. Here's the one I wear on the job and on my own time. It works for me.
Al
http://store.hamiltonmarine.com/browse.cfm/4,8683.htm

[George Roberts]

Tom Robb ---

The deck is redwood. Unfinished the deck looks like:

http://www.robertscpa.com/kayaks/deck_sanded.jpg

[Tom Robb]

Thanks George.
Triangular boards fanned out? What cut to get the wild grain?
I've never seen grain like that on redwood.
Sorry about the hijack....
Tom

[Tom Robb]

Looking at Almeyer's Hamilton Marine site, has anyone seen the float-coats described as beavertail? What is it; a long crotch piece that snaps/velcro's between the legs to slow heat loss in cold water?

[Wild Dingo]

But Tom... its a grand reason for a hyjack! What a wonderful grain pattern George :cool:

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

Al's post is a good example of the value of this forum. Personal experience is invaluable. I'll be ordering one. Thanks so much - Arch Davis types stick together!

[George Roberts]

Continuing to be sorry for the hyjack ...

I am not responsible for the grain or cutting. I simply bought all 3 2x6x16s that were available at a lumber yard.

A bit of resawing into 1/8x5/8 strips and that was the result.

[almeyer]

Tom, I don't know about the beavertail, but I've got a float coat from Sterns that is very similar. Admittedly, I only wear it a couple of times a year, but on those days I'm glad to have it. It's bulky, but it's very warm.
Al

[Tom Robb]

Luck or grace, then? Depending on one's theology, I suppose.
Thanks George.
Hijack ends....

[Captain Pre-Capsize]

An update.

I stopped at West Marine and picked up a harness and tether. Not cheap - about $65.00 EACH!!! Got to the boat and with my PFD on top of the harness set off. They worked great together. In fact it wasn't even necessary to clip and unclip as I tacked because the tether was just long enough (six feet) to reach the far side of the cockpit from the lifeline. I chose the tether that does NOT have an elastic shock cord to it. Mine is just the simple wide strap. If it were shock corded it would have been pulling on me the whole time I was across the cockpit from the attachment point on the lifeline. What surprised me the most was how comfortable the harness was - nice wide webbing and adjustable to be snug but not tight. Considering the comfort and safety inherent it is puzzling why they aren't more popular.