has anybody had keelbolts x-rayed?

[imported_Jimmy]

Has anybody had their keelbolts x-rayed? I am a little paranoid about my keelbolts and am considering options to ease my mind a bit. The options I am considering are:

1. having some or all of them pulled and replaced if necessary.
2. adding additional keel bolts.
3. having the keelbolts x-rayed in place.
4. do nothing and hope everything is OK

Reguarding the first option, I asked around last time I had the boat out of the water, but it didn't seem like there was anybody around who knew how to get keel bolts out and I know it isn't an easy thing to do, so it seems like trying to pull them could go horribly wrong and get very expensive.

There also doesn't seem like there is local expertise for the second option of adding keel bolts and I like to minimize the number of holes in the bottom of my boat. It also looks like this may have been done in the past, but it is difficult to determine how long ago.

The third option seems like the best, except the people who can do the x-rays, don't sound like they have a lot of experience with boats and are kind of expensive. It also sounded like it wouldn't be to difficult to x-ray through the deadwood, but the area around the garboards and floors might be difficult due to the extra thickness and not being flat. This could also turn out to be kind of expensive and I'm not entirely clear on how much you will be able to tell from the x-rays.

The head in the sand option is the cheapest and easiest, but could turn out very badly.

The boat is a 32 foot b class sloop with a full keel, iron keel bolts and what looks like iron balast (although another boat by the same designer has an iron outer casing filled with lead).

I would appreciate hearing from anybody with experience in this area, especially with x-raying.

[Concordia..41]

What is the age of the boat? Ours, built in '55, has iron keel and iron ballast. The portion of the keel bolts in the ballast was fine. It's the part in the oak floors that'll give you nightmares.

http://www.sailingwithsarah.com/removingkeelbolts.htm

[imported_Jimmy]

Oh yes, I've looked at your web site several times which is partly why I am hesitant to start trying to remove a keelbolt if I don't have to. I don't even know how mine are attached at the bottom (tapped into the ballast or going all the way through the bottom - are those the only two options?).

My boat was built in 1927 which I'm sure is more than long enough for keelbolts to have rusted away to almost nothing. Some of the nuts on top are rusty little lumps that don't really look much like nuts at all, scary.

[ 01-23-2003, 08:18 PM: Message edited by: Jimmy ]

[Concordia..41]

How about a survey? My Canadian geography isn't good enough to know where Naniamo is, but here's a listing of SAMS members with BC addresses:

http://www.marinesurvey.org/bc.html

Also NAMS Canadian listings:

http://www.nams-cms.org/membership/results.asp?criteria=Country&Cname=Canada

Can't imagine anything worse than not knowing, but it sound like you already know in your heart. A good surveyor should also be able to give you information on getting the bolts xrayed if necessary and yards where work could be done.

- M

[ 01-24-2003, 04:24 AM: Message edited by: Concordia..41 ]

[RGM]

I'm a big advocate of x-raying keelbolts. You indicate that having it done locally might be kind of "iffy" (lack of knowledge or experience), also expensive. How expensive is expensive? Do you ever bring your boat down around the Seattle area? X-raying would be no sweat here. I'll try to send you a private message tommorow and provide you with the name and phone number of an inspection outfit (they do x-rays) in Seattle that you can call and perhaps "pick their brain". Audio gauging can give you an idea of wasteage also. I think I covered all this before in a previous response.

[ 01-23-2003, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: RGM ]

[RGM]

So Jimmy, anyway to reach you offline?

[imported_Jimmy]

I have had two surveyors look at my boat (one just at the keelbolts), the first one was an incompetent idiot, and the second one said he thought they were probably OK, but admitted he couldn't be sure without pulling one (he didn't mention x-raying).

My boat won't be going anywhere ntil this spring or summer and then I think I will stay pretty close to home for a while. I would appreciate hearing about the place in Seattle that does x-raying.

I haven't used the priviate message thing before, I just updated my profile so I should be able to read them if you wanted to send me one. Thanks.

[Middle Bay]

On X-raying... I'm not sure of the desired results, but you might try contacting a Large Animal Veterinarian. They usally [should] have portable x-ray machines. I know some Vets that have some Korean War surplus stuff that I know should shoot through a keel. Technique might be a little rough, but if it's your only option, and might be cheaper- it could be worth considering. Depending on the thickness of the wood... really thick and they'd need some juice to get through it, and hopefully at that point you could appreciate the bolts, and conditions...interesting.

[imported_Jimmy]

So, other than possibly RGM, there isn't anybody out there who has had their keelbolts x-rayed? What do people usually do? Pull them, ignore them?

[trull]

On one refit, the Fife designed ketch Sumurun, had all her deadwood bronze drifts and some keel bolts x-rayed. It was an interesting procedure and helped us locate broken drifts. We could not determine the state of the keel bolts. In fact perfectly fine looking keel bolts when pulled and inspected only showed flaws when there were bent in a hydraulic press and the bronze disintegrated. These were one and half inch bolts and were perhaps 50 years old. We had made the decision to replace them anyway.
A steel fastening with a corroded nut is usually wasted at every seam-floor/keel, deadwood/ballast keel etc. I wouldn't bother with the x-ray and just pull the best looking one to see.1927? Unless the metal is wrought iron, I'll wager their time is due.

[Lucky Luke]

Refit of 60’ gaff schooner "Morwenna", built 1914 by Stow & sons, England. Bronze keel bolts, 1”dia. could no-way be pulled out, excepted half-length of a couple of them, which showed almost disintegrated at the junction between oak keel and lead ballast!!! As all the wrought iron floors needed replacement (they had disintegrated too, inside a crazy cementing in the bilge), new bolts (316L) were added to the originals whose “remains” were left in place. All the original bronze fastenings of the wrought iron floors were badly corroded (spongious, red colour; replaced by SS. too). My original intention had been to have my keel bolts X-rayed, of course: this is the most classic and only non destructive test I know to be sure of how they are… but the condition of mine was obvious. X-ray in-situ with a metallic ballast is something I had never thought of, not to mention calling a vet. for the job….. But, before that refit was done, she had sailed the channel in all sorts of weathers, and nothing had happened...!

Refit of 30’ wooden “one-off” built in France around 55: Iron bolts (and “funny” looking nuts), 14mm. dia (approx…!) were pulled out from the inside, after having carved a small recess below the washers, just as easily as if there had been large (rusted) nails. The section that remained in the iron ballast was almost perfect, and difficult to push out, but the most difficult had been to drop the ballast while all the “upper part” of the bolts had already been taken off!!!.

So why worry: if the ballast loves it’s keel, we should not interfere!!!…it’s not the wedding ring that does the marriage, no?

[Venchka]

Nanaimo, I remember it well. Spent a February and March there back on the ought-90's.

I didn't read every post so maybe I'm too late. But, I would talk to Paul Gartside down in Sidney. I'm not sure if he's a surveyor but he is knowledgeable. Pay him to figure out what to do.

Paul Gartside (http://www.gartsideboats.com/)

I also remember a gorgeous wooden boat tucked in the corner of a boat yard a few feet from the sidewalk at a 90 degree turn in the road that ran along the waterfront. North end of the road, just north of the marina. Any idea what that boat was?

Cheers!

[Pekka Huhta]

Iron keel bolts are easier and more difficult to check. Easier because iron cries rust through the deadwood/keel seam or under the floors. Harder because it's more difficult to pull on out or replace it than a bronze one.

We just started an article series about a keel bolt replacement at 'my' magazine Puuvene (that's finnish for Wooden Boat). Although the article is in finnish the pictures should be quite obvious: on the first page there is a keel from a demolished racer and on the last one there is a neat picture about the 'keelbolt cry' on the keel.

I did put the article out for downloading (just for a day or two), but unfortunately I haven't time for translating it into english. See at http://www.puuvene.net/apu/PV302s50-55KOLI.pdf (275KB)

I'd say you either pull the worst bolt and replace it or then just cross your hands and wish. Taking out the best bolt or the shortest or easiest to pull are just as good alternatives as anything else.

Making a x-ray test for all of the bolts costs easily as much as replacing one bolt. After x-raying you still can't say for sure if the bolts hold or not. After pulling one you at least know that you have one good bolt available.

Pekka

[imported_Jimmy]

Thanks for the advice. Sorry Wayne, I don't know which boat you are talking about. I've only bee in Nanaimo a few years so I may not have seen it. There are lots of beautiful wooden boats around here.

[Hughman]

Originally posted by Pekka Huhta:
We just started an article series about a keel bolt replacement at 'my' magazine Puuvene (that's finnish for Wooden Boat). Although the article is in finnish the pictures should be quite obvious: on the first page there is a keel from a demolished racer and on the last one there is a neat picture about the 'keelbolt cry' on the keel.

http://www.puuvene.net/apu/PV302s50-55KOLI.pdf (275KB)

<sznip>.

PekkaThis looks very well done. I would like to read what you have written- if you would translate your article, please? Thanks, -Hugh

[Venchka]

I lived at the end of Arbutus Street, right next to the Via tracks. I was on a very limited budget and my entertainment was walking. I would stand at the fence and look down on that boat all the time. The masts were out-two I think. Very small (if any) coach roof, gorgeous opening skylights (is that nautical?), small cockpit. Maybe 40 feet, or less. A blue water boat for sure.

I hope her owners appreciate her.

Good luck with the keel bolts.

[Andrew Craig-Bennett]

I have just replaced mine, for the second time in 15 years, and I hope to live long enough to do it again. 1 1/4" wrought iron, through teak and cast iron. The ones I put in last time were mild steel and had wasted about 6-8%.

It is almost certain that your bolts have an upset head on the underside of the keel; I have never heard of iron or steel bolts being tapped into an iron keel, although on some large vessels the bronze bolts go to nuts fitted in mortises in the lead keel.

The upset head may be almost impossible to find, but it will be there.

Get the nut off (you will most likely need a drill and a cold chisel) use a lot of easing oil and a drift and a 7lb hammer and go to it.

[imported_Jimmy]

well thanks Pekka Huhta, my computer won't let me look at your article. The overall impression I am getting though is that most people don't get their keelbolts x-rayed, they either spend the time and money to pull and replace them or just try not to think about it. I'll try to decide which I'm going to do before I haul her out next. Thanks everyone.

[Oyvind Snibsoer]

The company I work for does, among other stuff, NDT, which includes x-ray inspections of welds etc. The isotopes used for this work are pretty nasty, you'll need to have a large secured area if you don't have access to a designated x-ray bunker. X-ray inspections are often done at night when everyone else is sleeping. Remember, you'll want to shoot through the bolts to determine their state, not just look at the outline.

[imported_Jimmy]

Well, I pulled the boat a couple of days ago and went at one of the keelbolts. I got the nut off and gave it a few wacks with a 4 lb hammer and it moved! When I checked underneath to see if it was coming out the bottom, I couldn't see anything so I stopped banging. Digging around I did find a wooden plug, but when I removed it I found a smaller diameter brass or bronze bolt that was obviously not the other end of the bolt I had been banging on. Further scraping and scratching revealed that this was a small piece of lead ballast that had been added to the bottom of the keel. Even more scraping revealed that the material above it is not the iron ballast, but wood, yikes. The bolt in question looks like it might not even bee a keel bolt. I feel like an idiot, but the keel is covered with so much fairing putty that this was not obvious when I started. After removing the other bolts on this section of additional ballast and wacking it with the aforementioned hammer, it seems determined to stay on. I'm kind of at a loss about what to do now since I can't even be sure that the end of the bolt is under this extra ballast. I am considering trying to get a nut back on the bolt if it isn't down too far and tightening it up and pretend it never happened. Anybody have any other ideas?

[RGM]

What do you suppose a couple of x-rays would tell you?

[imported_Jimmy]

We are way past x-rays in this discussion. Maybe I should start a new thread?

[ 02-24-2003, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Jimmy ]