Paint Color Question

[pipefitter]

I recently purchased paint(brightsides) Largo Blue and the color on the lid is no where near the swatch they advertise. The color in the can is close to the lid color as it is now,wet.The depicted color on the can is more between ocean blue and sapphire blue. Would White added to it make it the color shown or would it take too much white? Does this paint get significantly lighter as it dries? The primer on the boat is white.Is this one of those guess and hope scenarios or has someone here already been thru this?

[Pernicious Atavist]

oh, just take it back and make them give you an answer.....

[Mike Vogdes]

If you do opt to add white I would go easy at first, maybe a few drops will be enough.

[kc8pql]

I'd paint a little on something and let it dry to be sure first.

[pipefitter]

Yeah,I painted some on the paint stick I had used to stir the primer. Still looks like royal blue or something to that effect.

[Bruce Hooke]

My general experience has been that it takes quite a bit of white to lighten a colored paint. However, I would recommend doing two things:

1. Paint a sample and let it dry and then look at it outside in daylight. Colors can change a lot depending on what light you look at them under, and two colors that appear the same in one type of light can look different in another type of light.

2. If you want to test what adding a little white to the paint would do it is easy enough to try with, say, 1/4 cup of the blue paint. Of course this does make it harder to return the paint...

[pipefitter]

Do the same pigments found at a pro paint store used to color oil based paints work with the one part urethanes? Say I got it bright enough and needed to tint it? Does one have to buy a whole can of another color of the same paint to do this with? You would think that suppliers of this paint could custom mix colors like they do everyother paint . Why do they just have to have so few stock colors?

[pipefitter]

I guess the last post should have been aimed at the manufacturer. But I did mess with it. I found that by adding plain white it made the color more towards a sky blue. Adding hatteras off white(the lighter of the 2 Hatteras off whites)at 50/50 it made it very close to the color depicted on the catalogue. Thanks for all your input. I knew I got that extra qt of off white for a reason.
Now when anyone asks the color, I can say it's "pipefitter blue". smile.gif

[ 07-06-2005, 12:38 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by pipefitter:
"Do the same pigments found at a pro paint store used to color oil based paints work with the one part urethanes?"

For oil based paints, oil tints are used.

For most other base types like acrylics and polies acrylic tints are used. Acrylics do not mix well with oils. I tint my polies with acrylic tints. If I'm painting from a colour card I'll get Bristol to tint a base.

"Say I got it bright enough and needed to tint it? Does one have to buy a whole can of another color of the same paint to do this with?"

The paint store should be able to scan your sample colour and give you a tint reading. Paint suppliers (I like Bristol for non marine paints) have a catalogue of current colours and historic colours. eg, If you painted your dining room with Martineque 20 years ago or even longer and Martineque can't be found anywhere because it is now called Ayers Rock (which it is, but I call it Uluru) the tint formula for Martineque will still be found in a catalogue and easily duplicated. Then you just buy the quantity that you need. Smaller quantities are proportionally tinted.

"You would think that suppliers of this paint could custom mix colors like they do everyother paint. Why do they just have to have so few stock colors?"

Because paint in a can doesn't have an infinite life. Many popular colours (popular this week but not next week) are fads, making traditional colours are limited by fads. Manufacturers make white paint bases for when subtle changes to colours are required. When tinting for a particular dark colour a particular base is tinted. One doesn't tint white bases only. Blue tints are added to standard blue bases (like Blue base type A or Blue base type B for example). The tints can be from Faber and the White base can be from Dulux and the final colour is identical to a known Kirby colour all done at Bristol. Don't underestimate the Kirby colours being in an Australian catalogue. If Kirby's tint formulas are in a catalogue on Oz, which they are Kirby's colours are now in Oz just take in a can of white marine enamel ... as if by magic.

If you do get a base tinted make sure the tint formula is written on the lid of the can, in case you need to buy more paint a few years down the track.

Added as interest. I tint my own paints mostly. I've made my own colour cards to suit the pigments that I like in both acrylics and oils, not those that Dulux likes this week. It is not practical for most people to carry tints. eg Dioxazine violet is very expensive being a stable rare mineral, in both acrylic and oil. I generally don't like organic pigments as they are highly unstable. I also carry some metalic pigments like gold and powder pigments for traditional historic colours, like Deep Naples Yellow, first seen 500 years ago. I can't buy Deep Naples Yellow at Bristol or from Dulux ... I don't think.

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid176/p3bc40b5a72d183c1bfc6b1f1df8c2adf/f363a5a6.jpg

These transparent blues on the boat are semi-transparent Curilean and transparent Phthalocyanine Blue in clear polyurethane about 12 coats, the photo is dead. I tint clear poly as I like transparent colours glowing above white, or as guys in the US say, the 'candy apple colors'. I can't get the hang of something called Blue #254 or 'four minutes past midnight blue' or names just as silly, despite studying applied colour theory at an IT so I use the names of the historic pigments.

Warren.

[ 07-06-2005, 05:35 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[Andrew S/Y Rocquette]

Also bear in mind if you alter the tint you'll never be able to match it exactly again if you need to touch it up.

Think querying with the producer is definitely the best thing in the long run.

[pipefitter]

Thanks Wassa. Great bit of info there.Definitely can appreciate from one that keeps his own colors.I did arrive at the color I was hoping for or real close to it. Either way it is satisfactory.I got lucky being the shade of blue even though it was wrong was still the right kind of blue that could just be lightened with another stock color.Or maybe it was the yellow in the off white that gave it the off aqua hue I was looking for.
I will keep some of the mix for touchups and if it doesnt keep till I need it,I will write down what I used so I can get close enough to match it at a later date.

[ 07-06-2005, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[Gary E]

Now when anyone asks the color, I can say it's "pipefitter blue".
That could turn out to be quite famous...

Do you remember how Richard Petty came up with the paint on his first stock car, way back when stock cars were stock cars?.... All they had were these few cans half filled paint so they mixed it all together, and that became "Petty Blue"

[pipefitter]

Yes Gary, I do remember that story of Petty. Him and his dad or his dad came up with that.Now looking at Wassa's color chart in the picture above I see my color so I may have to call it"Wassa Blue" ? Someone at the Interlux site needs to actually look at their paint and at their swatches online and adjust it to be closer.Especially when dealing with customers ordering over the wire,sight unseen. To have to add 50% of another color I would say is way off.
The colors are no closer in the catalog which is glossy so thats the only difference.
If you look at Wassa's color chart,5th row from top down,middle group. Started with the dark color blue on the left and the lighter shade on the right is what I was after. Just so you can see how off the color is.Just so anyone buying this paint from online can see that they might not be getting what they think.

[ 07-06-2005, 11:10 AM: Message edited by: pipefitter ]

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by Andrew S/Y Rocquette:
"Also bear in mind if you alter the tint you'll never be able to match it exactly again if you need to touch it up."

How come? Measure everything and write it down.

Petty Blue ... and Mario Andretti Red. A Dark Cobalt Violet mixed with a Cobalt Blue and two units of white equals ... Wendy's Blue, sorry.

Pipefitter Blue is a top name. It sounds like a rainbow (effect) of blues that are seen when you heat metal, like a lustre coat.

That Wassa Blue ( smile.gif ) is Cerulean Blue ( :( ) also known as Curilean Blue. The reason why I use traditional names is that they don't change and can be totally relied on as they are an international standard.

Warren.

[ 07-06-2005, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[pipefitter]

Just so everyone knows,the catalog does depict the right color. I only got the catalog when I got the paint so just dont rely on the internet swatches.
As far as writing it down what I used? Still no guarantee that the colors I buy to make it with down the line would be from the same lot,etc so one would have to custom mix a match. Things also to consider would be how the original color changed with age,etc. I do remember when I painted houses, I would mix a color and dry it with the heat gun to quickly get a close dry color so I imagine the same applies to marine finishes. I will keep the formula to get close to it though. It doesn't get any easier than 50/50.
Thanks again for the input to this thread.I definitely appreciate it.
I didnt know there would be such a wealth of info on hand painting. Seems to be a dying art with the advent of the roller and sprayer. Good to see people still believe in doing things this way.

[Bruce Hooke]

Regarding online paint swatches...I would be very careful about trusting any colors seen on a web site. Every computer monitor is a little different and very few people have the tools to profile their monitor so that it accurately displays colors. On top of that very few web browsers are set up to make use of the color profiles that can in theory be embedded in web images to accurately display colors on a web site when that site is viewed on a color managed monitor.

In short, don't trust colors you see on web sites...

Edited to add...I would be especially careful about gauging how light or dark a color is based on a web site color swatch because as monitors age they get darker and overall Mac monitors tend to be lighter than PC monitors, so from one monitor to the next there is a huge variation in how light or dark a color swatch looks. Also, if the color is way off on a monitor this is likely to be more obvious than if the monitor is too dark or too light.

[ 07-07-2005, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Bruce Hooke ]

[pipefitter]

It's good to know that now about the computer monitors. I saw in the manufacturer website where they do claim the catalog is the accurate colors so I cant fault them. I just figured in 2005 that would all be well figured out by now.Or why would a paint company bother to post colors if they are so far off?
With all my experience of all the trades I should have known better. I used to go thru this very same thing in house painting. Having to box all the paint together because the colors would vary from one bucket to the next. I had never seen it questioned on this forum in my short time here either. Atleast the color on the can is very close to what's inside.
Wild Wassa,as a pro painter,what is your favorite marine paint to use? All the FRP guys were telling me awlgrip. I have sanded awlgrip and Imron before and I definitely didnt want to be facing that during repaint time. Plus,all the roll and tip jobs I have seen done with that have basically looked like crap. I would rather have the alkyd job brush marks and all over that orange peel thick looking stuff.I guess if one was to have access to a good spray outfit and a safe place to paint it would be ok? I just wanted a job that I could redo without all that expense and hassle.

[Wild Wassa]

Originally posted by pipefitter:
"It's good to know that now about the computer monitors."

pipefitter, further to Bruce's advice. That's why I included the grey card in the photo. If you are holding a grey card which has a known reflectance (of 18%) you can balance the grey card on the monitor to your grey card that you are holding, then the colours will give a closer approximation to true. Closer but not perfect as Bruce has already mentioned.

"Having to box all the paint ..."

That is it and I'm telling you?

"... what is your favorite marine paint to use?

I use Boatcraft Pacific's Aquacote is a two pack water based polyurethane in both colour and clear. Aquacote is available in the US. I only buy 1 litre cans or bottles rather than 5lt cans. I'm totally finicky about using fresh paint. If I painted yachts and not just small boats I'd buy 5lt cans. 1lt always works out to be one coat on a hull on a 15-16ft boat. It costs more but I find it is worth it just in using fresh paint alone.

With varnish I've settled on a poly oil blend from Norglass Australia. Norglass Weatherfast Marine Varnish. I still make my own varnish but it’s more towards a clear enamel than a true varnish.

"All the FRP guys were telling me awlgrip ..."

I've read about finishing speed surfaces on boats. Awlgrip is the stuff painted on the hulls of Americas Cup boats. It is used because it is so hard, as you have noticed and can be finely finish. This is the torment of my day wondering if I should give Awlgrip a try. For 4 years I've used Aquacote. It is a big investment in skill to consider a major change now. It will happen but starting with a few foils I'd say. I can't talk about Awlgrip if I haven't tried it. A Google search on 'painting speed hulls', will bring up good essays on what's expected in a quality racing surface and the characteristics of Awlgrip.

I've suggested changes to Boatcraft Pacific and they have made changes to the paints, so I feel like I have an investment there as well. That is a hard bond to break, when I feel I've been listened to.

Aquacote does not coat uniformly across the range.
There are major differences in how the different Aquacote paints respond (which BP have addressed) and even how the different colours responds. They are different in how they are thinned, how they respond to the heat of the day, cure and the time between colour cutting and recoating times. Thin pigment quantities have now been addressed in the paints.

I like the fact that the Aquacote coloured paints might be a few minutes old on a hull but I'm colour cutting with #320-#400 within minutes. I like how Aquacote can be recoated within minutes, taped within minutes. I like how I can put multiple (sometimes up to 12) coats on in a morning. It still takes a full month to reach a hard cure, like most paints, so there is no benefit there over using other materials.

As I say ... kick boat.

Warren.

[ 07-07-2005, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Wild Wassa ]

[apindrans]

I'm reminded of quote, "There's only two colours to paint a boat - white and black - and only a fool would paint a boat black"

Sorry.

[pipefitter]

Oh yeah.....I wanted a white boat...but then the top cap woulda had to have been white too or bright wood...sitting in the sun in FL in an all white boat is like welding without a lense...plus the reflective sun burn from below as well as above...After what I do every day for a living I really try to dull anything reflective. I do know white lasts longer,is cooler. Same could be said for cars too I suppose,or houses.But alas,the quote probably comes from a day when there was no trailered boats or boat covers or UV sheltered paints. So I guess it may be time for a new quote.

[Gary E]

Who needs paint??
One of Ford's plants in Detroit has over 10 acres of it's roof with grass planted on it. I can see it now, the big grassy front deck of a sportfish and the kids up there playing kickball into an open hatch. smile.gif

wonder whut Astroturf would look like?

[ 07-07-2005, 10:33 AM: Message edited by: Gary E ]