Advice for a first time buyer

[Leigh]

Hello all,
I'm a first time buyer, looking at timber boats.
I'm off next week to look at a Herreshoff 29 footer, built of oregon (1" and an eighth) copper fastened in bruised edge construction. She's ketch rigged.
I've read quite a bit about what to look for when checking out a potential boat, but I'd welcome any practical thoughts the forum members might have.
Thanks.

[Zane Lewis]

Don't mean to be flipent but I think every one will suggest get a surveyor or a boat builder who actually works on woodend boats. Best if they are wooden ones of simalar construction.

Some basics would be the condition of any fastenings you can see, any areas of paint that appears to be lifting, look/poke our finger into all dark corners where water could sit, ie stringers, bulkheads. Remember freshwater and lack of ventilation are the major cause of damage to boats. I am assuming from the construction of the boat that she is an older boat. If so any issues from the quality of the construction should be obvious by now. Aother thing to lookout for is areas of work on the boat.

Cheer's

Zane
ps.I have gathered from other posts that getting boat inspectors in the US can be a problem due to litigation laws.

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by Leigh:
... copper fastened in bruised edge construction. eeerr can someone enlighten me on this method?? maybe its just me and Im appearing a tad ignorant tonight... but what the flamin heck is "bruised edge construction"?? :(

Ohhh one word... "Surveyor!!"... it will be repeated often and is an invaluable word to retain... "Surveyor!"... sorta rolls right over your tongue then if you add "wooden" and "boat" in front of Surveyor... you will hear "woodenboatsurveyor"... learn to love the word.. errr words that is..

Cripes that "bruised edge construction" has me as curious as a... god knows what!! I gotta know what that is!!

Dave!!! YO DAVE!!! Educate me old mate! :rolleyes:

Take it easy
Shane

[ 08-24-2002, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: Wild Dingo ]

[Hugh Paterson]

Hmmmm got me too Shane, cant wait to see what this "Bruised edge" construction thingy is. Hope its in good nick, sounds like a nice boat. Who built it Leigh, first time I have heard of a Herreshoff of that size in OZ.
Shug.

[Mr. Know It All]

My Father says "a wooden boat is a hole in the water,that you throw money into". :D
At least, with a good marine surveyor involved, you will have an idea of how much money you will need to throw into the hole. I Don't mean to be negative or discourage you in any way. I just think knowing what you are getting into is a real good idea. I wish I had gone that route. It would have made it easier for me but I don't regret buying a wooden boat. Welcome to the Forum Leigh. smile.gif
Peace----> Kevin in Ohio

[ahp]

Shane,

Bruised edge may be what is otherwise called tight seam construction. In this the edges of the planks were fitted very carefully and then were bruised. When they got wet the seams sealed up tight without caulking. Chappelle discusses this in one of his books. Not very common and I suspect, rather expensive.

Comments anybody?

[Wild Dingo]

Originally posted by ahp:
Shane,

....the edges of the planks were fitted very carefully and then were bruised. When they got wet the seams sealed up tight without caulking... Mate!! For cripes sake dont leave it hanging like that!!! :eek: ...How?? Why?? Why wasnt it common? What problems made it unviable? Which book!! aaaaakkkkkkk I hate that!! tongue.gif ...Questions!!! Questions!! Questions!!

Take it easy
Shane

[John E Hardiman]

Originally posted by Wild Dingo:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ahp:
Shane,

....the edges of the planks were fitted very carefully and then were bruised. When they got wet the seams sealed up tight without caulking... Mate!! For cripes sake dont leave it hanging like that!!! :eek: ...How?? Why?? Why wasnt it common? What problems made it unviable? Which book!! aaaaakkkkkkk I hate that!! tongue.gif ...Questions!!! Questions!! Questions!!

Take it easy
Shane</font>[/QUOTE]From Chapelle; Boat-Building; W W Norton & Co.; mine is the 69 reprint of the 41 edition; page 389; Tight-Seam Planking:
...The planks, before being set in place, have their edges slightly crushed with a specially shaped pair of metal wheels set in handles, something like a calking wheel. One wheel has a hollow edge, formed in a shallow V and a little wider than the edge of the plank; the other has the V reversed, so that its apex is in the center of the rim of the wheel. Both are fitted with guides to enable the user to apply pressure to the wheel without having it run off the edge of the plank. As each plank is shaped, one edge is crushed with one wheel and the opposite edge with the other. This, when applied to the planks in proper order, forms a very slight tongue-and-groove effect, made by the crushed fibers of the wood at the edges, or center, of the plank edge. When the strakes are forced into position, the seam is made tight. When completely planked and planed off, the hull is washed with boiling water, which swells the crushed fibers and closes the seams so tightly that they can hardly be seen. This "tight-seam" construction is suitable for small craft having thin planking, but should not be used otherwise. Tight-seam planking puts an enormous strain on plank fastenings, so these must be of the very best quality-never brass......

Clear as mud.. :D

PS. I forgot to say that I've also heard of it being done with an iron on one side (the free edge)only. After the plank is spiled, drive the middle of the free edge down, plane it off flush, fit the plank, spile the next plank to fit the free edge. When the hull takes up the wood returns to its uncrushed shape so the edge tries to expand and look like this --^-- and so seals.

[ 08-24-2002, 06:38 PM: Message edited by: John E Hardiman ]

[ahp]

Shane,

If you dent a piece of dry wood, crushing the fibers, wetting it will cause it to swell back almost to where it was before.

This idea was exploited in tight seam construction. Dent the edge of plank, (I think there was a special tool for this) before final planing and fitting. Then when the wood got wet the crushed fibers swelled and closed the seam, tight. No caulking.

Fitting tolerances would be much smaller than for a caulked seam, and hence more time and expense would be needed.

At least that is how I understand it. I have not actually done it myself. Comments are welcome.

[SBH]

isn't that the same as carvel planking? i'm no boat builder, but in an article i saw about different methods of planking, the description and drawings of the carvel method were exactly as you've described here, with special tools for bruising the edges of the planks.

sbh

[reddog]

SBH;
It is a type of plank on frame construction. There is no caulking bevel on the planks and no seam caulking. Your plank fits have to be dead on.
Leigh; As recommended above have her surveyed by a competent surveyor.Preferably by one familiar with this construction.
All the best;Earl

[Leigh]

Thanks for all the info guys.
I was planning to get an out of water survey if I like what I see when I get a chance to look at the boat.
The bruised edge construction is as posted....no caulking in the seams, each plank tightly fitted to the next. Obviously a more expensive method of construction than caulked carvel planking. Apparently, only the garboards are caulked...I would assume this was done for ease of removal of the garboards for inspection/repair during the life of the boat.
The boat is a locally built version (by Alex Mitchell) in 1958. The design is a H28 stretched to 29'6" with the cabin area extended full width of the beam, more like some english designs I've seen. Its the only H28 I've seen in this configuration.
There are quite a few H28s here in Sydney, a local company even produced a 30ft stretched version in F'glass some years ago.

[Zane Lewis]

There was a Boat Builder at Leigh in New Zealand in the 1960's who built a lot of H28's which had streched out a little to 29'. They where strip planked, edge nailed and rivited to the ribs with red lead between the planks. We had one which went up under an overhanging cliff in a storm at Whitianga 15 years back. Every plank and every rib was broken but we had her pulled off and she stayed afloat with 2 hourly pumping until she was pulled out stripped and burnt.
We where impressed with how well the construction held together.

These boats where built for the early charter trade in NZ. They had a low dog house type 1950/60 style cabin which gave head room in the galley. Ketch rig and a little undercanvised. Many have since had a short bowsprit added and some have also had a little extra hoist in the main added. This series of boats all had maori names starting with K if my memory serves me correctly.

Well the above does not help with looking for any problems but I would be interested to know if the boat you are looking at sound simalar.

Zane

[Leigh]

This boats name is "Aotea", so it may well have come over from NZ. The cabin configuration is completely different, with a full width cabin (beam to beam) aft of the main mast which has a small hard dodger, but no evidence of the typical H28 doghouse. She's certainly a pretty boat in the the pictures...see the site -
http://www.lamoore.com.au
and look under yachts for sale - listed as
"Herreshoff Ketch" 29'

[Lion]

Hello Leigh

Looks like a nice boat. Had a splined 26' Vertue, which while different to 'bruised' seam had the same effect; tight as a drum. Teriffic.

Make an offer subject to survey (on the slipway). Can recommend Doug Brooker, (Tel: 9997 5487). Knows timber boats, is local and may even know this one if it has been around Pittwater for a while. Did it for me some years ago, about the best grand I ever invested. With any purchase of this kind you will have some issues to deal with and its better know what they are before emotions overrule .... as if I ever took much notice!

BTW, whats the planking, NZ kauri?

Good luck
Lion

[kria]

Hi Leigh

Had a look on the Lamoores site, very nice.

I don't know Doug Brooker but have heard he is the best surveyor for wooden boats.

Cheers

Ian

[Zane Lewis]

Hi Leigh, Looks real nice, Looks to be well presented and looked after. That liner board with the holes looks very familer. Our old H28 had a lot of that for ventilation and to keep condensation of the bunks.

Good luck and let us know what the inspection results are like.
Cheer's

Zane

[Leigh]

Thanks guys, the boat is oregon (1+1/8") planked over spotted gum frames. Would have been nice if it had been kauri. I looked at a 28 footer that was full length planked in kauri. There was some rot in the pieces of trim around the transom that weren't kauri, but the planking was perfect... (that boat needed too much work, new deck and coachhouse and interior) but you've got to love that kauri planking.
I appreciate the name and number for Doug Brooker, as I do need someone who really knows timber.
I've also located another Herreshoff around the same length to look at. Same price, and its had a fair bit of timber work done recently.
I'll let you all know if things work out.
Thanks again.
Regards, Leigh

[Leigh]

Thanks for all your comments, guys.
I wasn't too happy with the lack of room...especially the mizzen stuck fair in the middle of the cockpit.
My wife is pushing for a trailerable boat, so I've pretty much gone back to the idea of building what I want.
At least it'll be finished the way I like.