Ethics of hunting ... should I learn to hunt deer?

[TomF]

I've been thinking about this for a while. Never hunted, and though I like the woods a lot, I've never felt the urge to go out and shoot trophies. Not my thing.

But, I eat meat. I lived in Alberta for a while, and got familiar with some of the practices in commercial-scale meat production - which are frequently pretty unsavory. Doesn't matter whether we're talking about feedlot cattle, or industrial hog barns, or battery chicken ... commercial scale meat raising typically involves some methods that would leave most of us feeling squeamish.

So, the options seem to be:

status quo - get over it, or make friends with the guilt
turn vegetarian - my wife's preferred option, but not the one embraced by my kids and me
make friends with a small-scale meat farmer who treats his stock well
grow your own
huntSo far, I've mostly done option #1, though I've done some degree of each of the first 3. I'd like, at some point, to do #4 - but it's not in the cards for a while at least. Which leaves hunting.

Eating hunted meat means that I'd know the animal had had a real life, and paradoxically probably died more painlessly than it would in the wild. White-tailed deer are plentiful in my area, and under relatively light hunting pressure ... and natural predators have become more scarce. And through hunting, my family and I would be forced to come to terms with the real cost of eating meat - something had to die. And our actual place in the food-chain ... omnivores.

Can hunting for meat be a sound ethical decision? I'm thinking so. Though that hasn't yet got me shopping for rifles and gear, I can see that the day might come sooner than I once thought.

[John of Phoenix]

If you think commercial production is unsavory I can't imagine you'd enjoy doing it yourself.

More of #3 might be the route to take.

[TomF]

If you think commercial production is unsavory I can't imagine you'd enjoy doing it yourself.

More of #3 might be the route to take.The part of commercial production that appalls me is the high-density stuff. Animals unable to really exercize, constrained by feedlots or hog-barn methods. Animals forced to live in their own excrement, and dosed with various drugs to counteract the bacteria they're unable to avoid.

While the slaughter and dressing out would be unpleasant, I'd be willing to do it. It makes the cost real.

I agree, though, that more of option #3 is probably the route to take for the most part. Our local farmer's market is closeby, and there are a number of meat producers there who do well both by their stock and by their customers. It's easier for me to buy from such folks than it's ever been.

t.

[Milo Christensen]

And, of course, you'll have the venison tested for all the natural diseases over-populated deer are subject to?

I stopped at a corner barbeque (the kind that tows into a parking lot corner) and had some of the best BBQ pork north of Dresden, Tennessee. Went back and asked the grill meister what was up with this fantastic BBQ. He just flashed his teeth, laughed out loud and said; "Happy pigs make better barbeque".

Sounds like #3 is a good choice.

[Tar Devil]

Another option... find someone who likes to hunt more than he likes to eat the meat. Maybe give him a gratuity for your share of his harvest. It's cheaper than hunting, for sure!

My son is an avid deer hunter and has agreed to keep me supplied.

Later,

Phil

[TomF]

Good thought Phil. I'd have to be careful to stay on the right side of the law on that one ... can't appear to pay him to hunt. But I'm sure there are ways to show appreciation.

[George.]

Hunting is the best option, in my opinion, with #3 a close contender. But unfortunately, there isn't enough wilderness or wild game to go around. If you want to be fully ethical, purchase a tract of wilderness large enough to support a population of game sufficient for your family, and then hunt in there.

[TomF]

... purchase a tract of wilderness large enough to support a population of game sufficient for your family, and then hunt in there.I've a non-hunting friend with a 160 acre parcel of wilderness about 45 minutes away. I expect he'd be willing to have me hunt on his land, if the day came that I asked him.

[Memphis Mike]

It's something that I don't ever want to do again but then I only hunted as a youngster thinking I had something to prove. It's good to know that I could do it again if the need arises, though.

Some things to take into consideration:

You don't need all that junk they advertise in outdoor catalogs to go hunting.

All you need is a good straight shooting rifle that you're familiar with and some decent hunting clothes and a good sharp knife.

Treat it as any other outdoor excursion and make sure you got a good pair of boots and rain gear and the proper clothing to protect you from the elements.

Deer hunting, at least where I'm from involved a lot of pre-season scouting to find out where they were, what they were eating, etc.

A lot of patience: The ability to sit on a stand for long periods of time. We never "drove" deer with dogs. It was illegal in WV.

[Tar Devil]

But unfortunately, there isn't enough wilderness or wild game to go around.

Actually, there is MORE wild game than ever (we're talking deer, here) thanks to clear cutting and wildlife refuges. The problem is there is less and less wilderness. Too many places where hunting is needed but not allowed.

Later,

Phil

[Paul Pless]

It might be worth exploring fishing as well. Or even fish farming.

[Tar Devil]

Farm raised catfish is a healthy, tasty and renewable resource.

Later,

Phil

[TomF]

Too much mining and pulp-and-paper history in New Brunswick for freshwater fish to be a dominant part of the diet. The mercury levels, especially in larger fish, are too high. Sad.

There's a lot of fish farming in the Bay of Fundy - there are benefits and costs there ... some ecological concerns regarding both disease among the stocks, and where all the waste and leftover feed goes. But yeah, we eat fish a lot. Lobster even are plentiful in some areas, especially as there are fewer cod to prey on them while young. Still too pricey for a regular dinner event though ...

[TomF]

Great post, Jeff. Thanks.

[Cec]

I reached a point where I felt that we removed ourselves from the killing part and don't even think of it, yet I eat meat. I decided to take up bow hunting and I'm glad I did. Not just for the food, but for the time I've spent in the woods just walking and learning once again to become part of it all.

The issue with bow hunters is that a lot of them don't take the time that's needed to become good at it. I started shooting 3-D tournaments during the year and eventually made my own arrows. At the the height of my hunting days I could place 10 arrows in an 8 inch group at 60 yards... not even a range I'd shoot in the woods.

I say to give it a try and see if it fits you, but remember this: You are shooting at an animal and that means you need to perfect your craft at it whether with a bow or a rifle. Don't walk into the woods until you know you can make a clean kill...

[JimD]

I despise trophy hunting but have no problem with culling large populations of highly edible animals such as deer. Go for it. Just spend some time at the firing range first and do everything possible to ensure a clean, fast kill.

[Phillip Allen]

Ironmule has a good workable plan...

[Phillip Allen]

Don't get an SKS

[TomF]

Y'know, thanks to another forum where they talk about such things, I'd begun googling around regarding military surplus Yugoslav Mausers. I'll look into peep sights - my eyes aren't terribly young either. I can find a never-used Mauser for about $360US, which seems a whole lot better than a new gun. No longer have my Dad's old .22 ...

[paladin]

Get a Marlin .444........it's got knockdown power....damn good to 100 yards for a relatively skilled shot...and with the big diameter slug will knock the critter down......
It's a lever action, design by John M. Browning, action is reliable and will still shoot after you drop it a few times.....although I have bigger and more expensive stuff, a 1892 winchester saddle carbine rechambered for .357 magnum is my favorite....

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Kicked this one around a bit with SWMBO and the conclusion was that if it is to be done then it better be done right - I would hate to leave an injured animal in the field.

Side issues:
Breeding and eating rabbits is easy, quick and does not call for too much space.

You don't have to keep a leathal weapon in the house to hunt for the pot, the right dog will take rabbit, deer and most memorably - pheasant on the wing.
Now lots of people object to hunting with dogs (forbidden now in the UK) but I have never seen a dog leave an injured rabbit.

[paladin]

ummmm....welsh wabbitt...not the cheesy kind......:D

[Donn]

How to hunt deer:

Stand in the garden and make sounds like your most cherished ornamental plant. When the deer comes to eat you, slit his throat with a good knife.

[TomF]

How to hunt deer:

Stand in the garden and make sounds like your most cherished ornamental plant. When the deer comes to eat you, slit his throat with a good knife.:D :D

[uncas]

When I was in college, I had to take a course in wildlife diseases etc. Twice a week, had to do autopsies on various fauna brought in...Moose to skunks to rabbits to hawks etc. Did several on deer that had starved to death. Really an eye opener to see visually how an animal's body consumes itself to maintain its functions. Internal canabalism. I personally would not like dying that way. Hence, I am noty a hunter but I am also not opposed to hunting.
I am opposed to hunters that have no concept of what they are shooting at. Happens more often in waterfowl hunting. Case in point, although these hunters know what they are shooting at. Shooting Sea Ducks for sport as they really would not be worth eating.

[Donn]

Attsamatta you? Sea Duck, especially Eider and Scoter are delicious!

[uncas]

Donn, aren't they the ones you nail to a board, bake an hour, and then ya eat the board? Maybe those were Mergansers.
Anyway, saw a lot of people shooting sea ducks off boats on the Chesapeake and THEY certainly were not collecting them. Just shooting them for sport.

[Bob Cleek]

Well, as a kid, it was the thing to do. Now there are deer all over out here, getting fat on rose bushes. Problem is, now that the deer are all over, the mountain lions are moving in after them. Bambi in the backyard is one thing, but the cougars are not what you want around at all, "endangered" or not.

As for hunting meat for the table, I'd say forget about it. Unless you are going to pay big bucks to shoot big elk raised on a game farm and all staked out for you (boring "hunting"), there really isn't enough meat on deer to make it all that worth while. By the time you get finished, you'd probably save money buying a beef at the butcher shop. Had a guy I knew once who was a big time duck hunter. It was his life. His wife finally did the arithmetic and figured out that when all was said and done, their ducks were costing them about ninety bucks a duck, and that didn't count plucking and cleaning 'em!

These days, unless you live in a really remote unpeopled place, hunting is a sport, not a practical method of subsistence, or so says I.

[Donn]

Sorry, Cleek. Wrong again. Deer, on average, yield 50% of their dressed out weight in boneless edible meat. When I lived in Ohio, we regularly shot 150#+ cornfed deer.

Where I live now, I'm just a few minutes by boat from prime waterfowl spots. During 107 consecutive days ending at the end of January, I can take 14 Sea Ducks per day, in addition to shorter seasons and bag limits for other fowl. Their breasts freeze beautifully, and are a worthy substitute for commercial fowl. Add the fish and shellfish, and I could easily supply all my family's meat needs, for far less than it would cost to buy it.

I wouldn't call this a "really remote unpeopled place."

[TomF]

A significant minority of whitetail deer 'round here weigh in at 250 pounds, though 150 is more the norm.

[Paul Pless]

These days, unless you live in a really remote unpeopled place, hunting is a sport, not a practical method of subsistence

Hmmm! I've never really thought of Alabama as a really remote, unpeopled place before.

I personally know several families whose entire annual allotment of meat, with the exception of bacon and fatback, comes solely from hunting and fishing, often together as a family.

[gary porter]

TomF, you may just have to try some of these options before you know. The vegitarian route is my choice but not all that simple either.
We eat fish,,,Salmon, Halibut etc. that we catch. I eat some chicken breast but really wouldn't bother me if I never ate another one. If I was going to eat red meat then I'd eat Moose. Fact is though that Moose likes to see the sunrise just like the rest of us and while I don't have a problem with those who want to eat meat you should do it with some amount of respect for the critter. Most folks don't associate the meat they eat with any critter at all or how it came to be a hamburger or such. I used to eat meat three meals a day and to tell you the truth it was no problem giving it up at all , don't miss it a bit. Coffee, now that I'd have a problem with. Look into the macro biotic type diets which will tell you that if you much eat meat eat it as a concession and eat the vegies as the main course.. If you really want to eat the red meat and really don't want to hunt, you might not even like the dear meat, then just buy the best meat you can, eat little of it, and have some respect in you for the source. By the way, I haven't eaten red meat in probably 20 years. You don't have to eat it, its your choice.
Good Luck
Gary

[Katherine]

These days, unless you live in a really remote unpeopled place, hunting is a sport, not a practical method of subsistence, or so says I.
Those of us that still live in these areas respectfully request that if you shoot at something, know what's on the other side. To many near misses and wounded pets from hunters with a poor aim some years.:rolleyes:

[uncas]

paraphrased snip:

The law was very firm-it
Took away my permit
The worst punishment I ever endured.
Turned out there's a reason
Cows were out of season
And one of the hunters wasn't insured
And when I was asked how I did it.
I told them there qwas nothiong to it.
You just stand there looking cute
And when something moves you shoot.
There are ten stuffed heads in my trophy room right now
Seven hunters, two game wardens and a
Pure bred Guernsey Cow.

anyway, ya get the picture

[B_B]

Good thought Phil. I'd have to be careful to stay on the right side of the law on that one ... can't appear to pay him to hunt. But I'm sure there are ways to show appreciation.

don't know too much 'bout Ontario but have never heard of someone getting charged because one neighbour traded another neighbour some stuff for venison - what the Parks folks generally look for is commercial operations - i.e. your neighbour trading a ton of venison for thousands of dollars....keep things in perspective and y'all should be fine.

however I am a proponent of hunting yourself, and taking your kids with you. Killing is traumatic, as is dressing. It's messy, it's gross, it's unsavory BUT it really does make the food process more real.

Even if you don't take up hunting full time I fully encourage you to find someone with whom you could hunt (borrow their rifle if necessary - most hardcore hunters have more than one) and make the process more real.

Once you've done it, then go to your option #3 - help the small scale farmers, help yourselves by buying organic, help the animals by supporting good agriculture practices and help yourselves by not eating the crap foisted on us by the supermarkets (most of the red meat you buy has been dyed as well as died!!hehe)

[Bob Cleek]

Hey, I'm not down on hunting. If you can feed the family on it, by all means, go for it. All I'm saying is that most guys I know would make a lot more money spending the time they waste trying to get a deer each year doing something productive. I guess you have to like venison, too. I've never eaten game that didn't have to be "worked on" to really be edible. Maybe they're more tender in your neck of the woods!

[Phillip Allen]

I've eaten a lot of deer. Most has been passable and a lot has been bad. The problem, I think, arises out of the lack of knowledge of what all in involved in proper butchering. The only deer I ever took was killed about five minutes from the house of my mother-in-law. I walked down got the tractor with the front-end loader and fetched the deer. Sammy (she had grown up on the farm and still farmed actively, raising beef) then elbowed me out of the way and field dressed it herself, refusing my attempts to help. I then drove twenty-five miles to the custom butcher and left it with him to cut and package...

It turned out to be the best venison I have ever had before or since.

[Domesticated_Mr. Know It All]

I hunt deer with a Buick.
Got 2 last year.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Behind the GM plant in Parma ,OH, was a big stand of trees. And across the road in Holy Cross Cemetery was another big stand. And between the two there was a lot of deer traffic. The local cops even caught poachers who were taking deer with snares.
One dim morning one of my co-workers, an elderly immigrant, hit and killed one of those deer. Behind him was another,younger immigrant,who saw the accident. The younger man ran up and said something to the effect that he had just purchased an electric sausage grinder and a supply of garlic and spices and could knock out enough venison kobasa for the two of them. In short order the deer went into the younger man's trunk and traffic was back to nomal without much delay.
I consider this to be the height of ethics. No traffic jam. No rotting flesh to be scraped up by the city. And equal shares of God's bounty for all who contributed.

Charlie

[paladin]

a couple of days a week Bambi makes a trek across my back yard....and I could do it silently.....but there's too many folks that live close to me.......the damn bullfrogs in the pond are gonna be fir game I'm afraid.......broadheaded to the ground....and Sammy squirrel and his friends izz next if they don't leave my termaters alone...

[huisjen]

How else to respond to Tom Leherer but with this little gem by Buddy Wasisname and The Other Fellers:

This cramped city life is not right for a man
We're born to live free and to kill what we can
So it's off to the country where the air's fresh and clear
With a carton of cigarettes and twelve dozen beer.

Chorus
So blow the horn loudly and rev up the truck
We're off to the country to murder the duck.

We climb in the truck about six forty-five
And proceed to get tanked for the long weary drive
When we get to the cabin we're all brightly lit
Can't remember who drove and can't tell what we hit.

Chorus

It's up with the dawn, though coffee's no good
And down to the lake through the dew-spangled wood
When we get to the blind we're as happy as boys
Til we find out that Buddy forgot the decoys.

Chorus

We crouch without standing from nine until three
Except every few minutes we stand up and pee
At last! There's a duck and we fill it with lead
Can't figure who shot it but the sucker's sure dead.

Chorus

Then it's back to the cabin for whiskey and steak
Where we talk about women till nearly daybreak
No one believes what the other guys say
but we have to talk dirty to prove we're not gay.

Chorus

The next day the ducks are gone elsewhere in flocks
So we have to shoot beer cans and tree stumps and rocks
Dick lost his gun when he fell in the lake
And Tom shot a full can of beer by mistake.

Chorus

Then it's back to the city refreshed by our sport
Drinkin' gas by the gallon and beer by the quart
We have to draw straws to see you has the luck
To pick two pounds of lead out of three pounds of duck!

Chorus

[BrianW]

Get a Marlin .444........

paladin,

I'm thinking a 444 Marlin is a bit much for a new shooter. They're fine lever guns with iron sights, but scopes are harder to use and mount compared to a bolt action. I used to carry one for brownie protection, handloaded to the hilt and with ghost ring sights. Factory ammo is limited and usually not up to printed velocities.

I love Mausers, but there are so many different varieties on the market, with varying levels of quality, that I wouldn't recommend one for a new shooter either.

I'd suggest a new Ruger M77 MkII chambered in 30-06 or smaller. Rugers are relatively cheap, around $450, and come with a set of scope rings included. Throw on a basic 3-9 power Leupold scope and a guy is ready to go hunting.

A guy could go with other brands, such as Savage 110 (cheap and accurate), Remington M700 (not as cheap, but accurate), Browning (A-Bolt, accurate, popular in the east, but too many parts for my liking), or even a Winchester M70. I prefer Winchesters because they have many of the best features of the classic Mausers, but with modern materials. However, Winchester recently closed the M70 factory and prices have gone through the roof.

Don't scrimp on the scope either. Buy a Leupold and be done with it. They have an excellent reputation for durability, great glass, and a lifetime warranty. If a guy found one broken on the side of the road, he could send it in and they'd fix or replace it for free.

Remember, a clean kill is all about placement, not power. The scope is what provides accurate placement.

[PeterSibley]

Killing is traumatic, as is dressing. It's messy, it's gross, it's unsavory BUT it really does make the food process more real.

Even if you don't take up hunting full time I fully encourage you to find someone with whom you could hunt (borrow their rifle if necessary - most hardcore hunters have more than one) and make the process more real.

Once you've done it, then go to your option #3 - help the small scale farmers, help yourselves by buying organic, help the animals by supporting good agriculture practices and help yourselves by not eating the crap foisted on us by the supermarkets (most of the red meat you buy has been dyed as well as died!!hehe)

Well said .I don't eat much meat these days , just when it's served to me visiting ..but I used to hunt and reckon its a good reality check,VERY unlike the prepackaged slabs of pink plastic wrapped protoplasm from the supermarket.If you want to eat meat I reckon you should be able to do the whole thing ,kill,skin and dress ...then hire it done if you want .

But firstly learn to shoot ...don't miss or wound .

Number 3 is a very good option,factory flesh is an abomination.

[PeterSibley]

If you find you can do 2" at one hundred yards aiming at an exact mark on a bullseye, put up a deer silhouette from kraft paper at 200 and 300 yards and see if you can do 4" and 6" respectively, with no exact aiming mark. I can't.

I agree ,its one thing to do that on the range ,well dressed and comfortable,quite another in the bush with a cross wind and sun in your eyes.For me training was head shots on rabbits at 50 yards .

[Tar Devil]

I'm with Brian on equipment choice... for the money it's hard to beat Ruger's M77 for reliability. I'd get it in either 30.06 or .308. You can buy these chamberings loaded for everything from varment to big game.

Later,

Phil

[Cec]

If you find you can do 2" at one hundred yards aiming at an exact mark on a bullseye, put up a deer silhouette from kraft paper at 200 and 300 yards and see if you can do 4" and 6" respectively, with no exact aiming mark. I can't.

I agree ,its one thing to do that on the range ,well dressed and comfortable,quite another in the bush with a cross wind and sun in your eyes.For me training was head shots on rabbits at 50 yards .

And then sight the gun (or bow) in to the range you'll most likely hunt in. I shot my bow at 20, 30, 40 and 60 yards at a 1" orange dot on my targets. In the woods in Virginia and now in Tennessee, you'll do well to get a Clear line of sight over 35 yards and in most places around 25, but the practice at longer range made for a tighter grouping at shorter range.

In Wyoming, you may have those 300 yard shots and in Maine's beautiful woods you may find yourself wishing for a pistol in some of the denser tree lines.

[Moonshadow]

No need to jump in with both feet. Join a local club, learn to shoot, and go along on a hunt. It could probably all be done with a borrowed rifle if you don't want to make that investment.

However it works out, it's not a bad skill to have.

I couldn't hunt unless I was very hungry. It's a bit hypocritical if you eat meat, but I like to look at them too much to see them to the table. I've been around it, and it's a bloody affair taking a deer. It's very disturbing to some, particularly for those not initiated in the blood when young.

There is also something quite exhilarating about it, and it takes down all civilized barriers between you and your meat. That's a good thing. And venison is GOOD!

If you do go on a hunt for deer, and are successful, try to get ahold of at least one of the backstraps. You have to strip all fat off, it tends towards gamey, and replace it in the cooking with other fats. The meat itself is lean, and cooked rare, very good.

Buying meat from a local small holder who you get to know so you know they treat their animals properly is my carnivorous choice. The animals are allowed a real life, are fed healthy foods, and are slaughtered humanely. All of that's important to me.

I applaud your questioning of buying "factory" meat. Horrid stuff there, not good for the animals, and not good for us.

[paladin]

Brian....Have the M-77 in 7mm remington magnum......and I stated the .444 for exactly that reason....the cartridge is underloaded and is at best a warm .44 magnum...but for meat it has the knockdown power at a reasonable range.....not a 300-400 yard shot..or overshot with a hotter round.....I would even go so far as to say one of the winchesters or marlins in .44 magnum or a used ruger deerstalker would be good meat guns.....mine has downed a lot of caribou...and larger...

[TomF]

I'm grateful for all the very fine comments here, people. Particularly the repeated good advice on being well practiced on inanimate objects, before I try to shoot something that's alive.

Making the acquaintance of a local shooting or rod and gun club is a very fine idea too. I think that will likely be a first stop, if I do go further in this direction. In the meantime, I'll at least be purchasing more meat from the local small producers. That option's good for all concerned.

[Phillip Allen]

I'm not a fan of scopes. Years, and I mean YEARS, of competition with open sights made me appreciate those simple (seeming) bumps on the top of the rifle. I killed one deer at a measured 125 yards with open sights (my .54 caliber competition rifle) on a muzzle loader. I hit within an inch of where I was aiming.

I fear the scope tempts a guy to take risky shots out farther than he should. Scopes are not fair to the deer also in that the 30-36 is down to .30 carbine performance at 300 yards. This makes the “kill” zone get smaller, adding much difficulty to the shot. I do like the aperture sights but most are unwilling to spend that much on something that is not a scope. It requires education for someone to understand the reasons for getting aperture sights. I have one rifle with tang sights (aperture) that cost $350 and that just floors the scope crowd. Good aperture sights can be had for $40-$60, receiver mounted.

[BrianW]

Phillip,


I know your very good with irons, but not everyone has your level of dedication to the sport. For someone just looking to put meat on the table, a scope is the best choice. From day one it will provide the accuracry and confidence needed for the shooter to cleanly kill animals.

I'm not a long range hunting fan either, but 300 yards is hardly far or out of range for a 30-06. :)

[Bruce Taylor]

How else to respond to Tom Leherer but with this little gem by Buddy Wasisname and The Other Fellers:

Another Buddy fan! For years now I've been hoping to run across a copy of their song about going bear-hunting "in a busted rusted automobile / with a monkey wrench for a steering wheel / and the two front doors / rusted permanently shut." I even wrote to one of the Buddy's about it (he said they were thinking of re-releasing it one of these days).

I don't suppose you have a copy?

They've done a few good hunting songs. I'm fond of "Got to get me moose, Bye!"

[Popeye]

the ethical New Brunswick deer hunt

interesting

[TomF]

Only ethical deer need apply.

How's our New Brunswick moose doing over on the Rock these days, eh?

[Popeye]

really good , i saw several on my fishing trip , and caribou aplenty

if i recall , all the rock moose today have descended from only 4?

also seem to recall we sent some to Maine for repop

[TomF]

Yup 4 moose relocated from the Miramichi direct to you lads. Seems they've been busy, over the years.

You'd have thought that there might be some effects from inbreeding, but it appears not.

[uncas]

Yup...as long as they don't pick of menengeal worms from the dweer population. Not a good way for Alces alces to bite the bullet.

[Popeye]

no deer on the rock (island you know)

except on Saint Pierre et Miquelon

[Ed Harrow]

I'm with the elephants, but deer were made to be hunted. As a species they have benefitted (Obviously individual members may take a different viewpoint.) Of course, in the nature of things, it's the young and old that mostly fell to predition and the human hunter is looking for one in prime, of course.

Lots of good, no excellent, suggestions here with respect to skill development and equipment. If you are half inclined you ought to persue it.

For an interesting viewpoint, you might read the first of three books, each entitled something like, do I dare mention it, Ishmael. The first might be simply Ishmael

[huisjen]

Another Buddy fan!

Sorry Bruce. I heard the duck hunting song on the radio once, but it stuck with me. Otherwise I'm pretty unfamiliar with the band.

You might want to look for lyrics at http://www.buddywasisname.com/

Otherwise, I agree that there are many good things being said here, and I don't want a little humor to be seen as detracting from that.

Dan

[Phillip Allen]

Well Tom, I'm a little dubious about the gun club but it's better than nothing. If you were closer I'd try to help directly. Looking for a good hunting instructor at a gun club is like a box of chocolates...

[PeterSibley]

I'm not a fan of scopes. Years, and I mean YEARS, of competition with open sights made me appreciate those simple (seeming) bumps on the top of the rifle. I killed one deer at a measured 125 yards with open sights (my .54 caliber competition rifle) on a muzzle loader. I hit within an inch of where I was aiming.

I fear the scope tempts a guy to take risky shots out farther than he should. Scopes are not fair to the deer also in that the 30-36 is down to .30 carbine performance at 300 yards. This makes the “kill” zone get smaller, adding much difficulty to the shot. I do like the aperture sights but most are unwilling to spend that much on something that is not a scope. It requires education for someone to understand the reasons for getting aperture sights. I have one rifle with tang sights (aperture) that cost $350 and that just floors the scope crowd. Good aperture sights can be had for $40-$60, receiver mounted.

I'm going to put my head in the lions den here Phil and say that I think scopes can be a very good thing.We're talking hunting for the pot and anything that helps accuracy is to be encouraged.In my case my eyesight is far from perfect ,one good eye, one very poor and I found scopes very useful in poor light.

It depends on conditions , long shots ,thick brush ..its very hard to generalise but they definitely have place especially for someone interested in humanely bring home a meal.

[Phillip Allen]

I said I'm not a fan...there certinly are justifications for their use and no doubt. I fear, however, that the pitch at scope emporiums is that long shots are made easy and accuracy is past worry...all the while leaving out ethical use instruction.

I don't have an answer...use them if you want.

[BrianW]

There are solutions to the 'irons vs scope' dilemma. I run quick release scope rings on my 'large critter' rifle so I can remove it in the thick stuff and use the iron sights...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/BrianW/hunting/taylorironsandscope2.jpg

When the scope is remounted, it retains it's zero, so there's no need to re-sight the rifle. In my case the scope is a Leupold 2.5-8x mounted with Leupold QR rings and the irons are from New Englamd Custom Guns.

[Phillip Allen]

I see you're a lefty...sorry for your affliction... :)

[BrianW]

Yep, but only shooting rifles and bows

It used to be hard finding lefty stainless M70 Classics, but now that the Winchester factory has closed down, it's darn near impossible. I have two now, and consider myself lucky.

If ya see any down there, let me know!


I also had a left-handed M70 Classic Super Express in 375H&H, but it was blued and far too pretty to take hunting in S.E. Alaska. Still have the dies, so I've always got my eyes open for another one, but in stainless.

I've got a lefty Browning A-Bolt (junk IMHO) and lefty Remington M700 also, but I prefer Mauser clones such as the M70 and now Mountain Rifle Company action.

[Phillip Allen]

I don't understand the draw to stainless...who wants an unfinished firearm (in the white)

[paladin]

condensate will rust a barrel in a hurry...especially in Alaska where a weapon is in constant use....I cleaned/oiled my weapons virtually every time they left the locker at home.....

[Phillip Allen]

I've had folks ask me about advice for a salt-water boat gun. I always tell em to get a blued steel firearm. My reasoning is that for the most part, the internal workings are never stainless (it makes poor bearings as it galls on itself) and that those hidden springs and pins and parts are more important to the function than a shinny finish. I tell em to watch the visible shinny stuff for signs of rust and when they find it…take it apart and tend to the inside first.

[paladin]

I can see critters that thedawg doesn't....but my eysight is excellent from about 5 yards and out.....which means I don't see the rear sight worth a darn anymore....however......the aimpoint seems to work....

[Phillip Allen]

I got away without wearing glasses for years, because I was far sighted in my left eye, and nearsighted in my dominant right eye. My brain got used to using whichever it needed for fine detail. I've never been able to get it to combine pictures from both eyes so I can see those "3D" paintings.:rolleyes:

When I started getting silver in my hair, I found there was a middle distance that neither eye worked well enough, and I had some astigmatism to boot.:eek: Without some help, I see two front sights.:(

If you see two front sights with a single pull of the trigger...does that constitute a machine gun?

[BrianW]

Phillip,

Stainless steel is not the same as chrome-moly left 'in the white.' But you are correct that not all stainless rifles are equal.

My stainless Browning A-Bolt does rust up internally, which why I have such a low opinion of them. Although, they may work good in a tree stand situation back east.

My M70 in the picture has never rusted internally, and as you know, they're easy to field strip and there are no parts that can't be seen. That rifle is not babied, it lives it's hunting life on a skiff in the saltwater. It's a tool and it works like a tool. Ruger M77 MkII's are the same way.