spirt sail v.s lug sail?

[wilsonj]

yet another question by me, i have searched around for a clear answer but failed to find anything usefull, so i figured i would get opinions here, i understand the difference between the two but what i don;t understand is which has better performance? picks up wind easyer? etc? any info on the two is greatly appericated.

[Woxbox]

Seems we had something on this not too long ago. I've played with both - you might notice a balanced lug on the little icon-thing up in the corner here. That's my Steve Redmond Whisp with a rig that's not in the plans.
And earlier I had a sprit rig on a boat of about the same size -- 16' feet.
So there are balanced lugs and standing lugs.
And there are sprits with a single sprit, and then sprits with a second spar to keep the clew where it's supposed to be.
Tough to make equal compariasons with these variations, but generally I find the sprit easier to handle most of the time and powerful for its size, but the lug a little more weatherly.
The sprit tacks and jibes real nice but doesn't lend itself to reefing. But it does furl up quickly against the mast.
The standing lug wants to knock your head off or poke your eye out when you raise and lower the sail. But it will set well when everything is adjusted right in that it's self-vanging. But then you have a boom to whack you upside the head, which the sprit doesn't.
I could go on, but there's no clear winner or loser here. You could have a sail made up with enough grommets in the right places to rig it every which way and then try the variations for yourself. That's what it's all about, is it not?

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

Wilson,
Time to hit the library.
"The Sailmaker's Apprentice" by Emiliano Marino

[almeyer]

The boat I built had a choice of a gunter sloop rig, a standing lug, and an unboomed sprit. I chose the standing lug because I thought it was the best compromise between performance and ease of set-up. The unboomed spritsail is very easy to set up, but I think you get better sail shape using a boom, especially if you want to run downwind. You can also furl the sail easily on an unboomed spritsail if you rig a brailing line. A spritsail with a boom would seem to cancel out the advantages of the rig. But I could be wrong; some knowledgeable folks like Todd Bradshaw might straighten me out.
My experience on the lug is that it's a fine rig. Easy to set up, points fairly well into the wind, a minimum number of strings and short sticks, and easy to reef. The boat also sails well under a reef, with almost no difference noted in helm balance. In short, I'm very pleased with the lug.
Al

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

One of the good things about the Lug is that mast bend hardly changes the sail shape whereas with any sail where the Luff is fastened to the mast the sail and mast need to be considered as a unit.

[Tom Galyen]

Woxbox,
I have a replica 18th century ships "Jolly Boat" that has a Dipping lug foward and a Standing Lug aft. I wish both were Standing Lugs as it would make handling her much easier. I know what you mean by getting poked in the eye or bonked on the head while raising the sail. I saw an idea put forth by Phil Bolger, who loves the Lug sail. He recommended that you add a block to the top of the mast and run a line to the aft end of the yard. When you go to raise the sail you pull the end of the yard up first with this line. When the yard is parallel with the mast tie the line off then raise the sail as usual with the halyard, leaving this line as it is. When you go to lower the sail for reefing, or in the case of my dipping lug for dipping, the end of the yard the yard will pivot properly and will remain under control. When lowering the sail, lower with the halyard until the sail is again parallel with the mast then lower it the rest of the way with the peak line.

I have not yet tried it but it looks like it will work.

Tom G. (Seaweed)

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

A dipping lug. Isn't that the item that requires the crew to muscle the sail around the mast every time you change tack?

[Woxbox]

A line to the peak on a lugsail would control things when setting and dousing, but then it's one more line on a rig that's supposed to be simple. The yard on mine it light enough that as long as I remember to grab it before it gets me it works out.
On diipping lugsails, yes, tacking is an exercise. At the Kalmar Nyckel shipyard we have a 28-foot open boat given to us by the King of Sweden some many years ago. It needs major restoration, but if we ever get the job done sailing it will be a blast: it has two dipping lugs.
So the drill is to sail it with a crew of nine: Three on each sail; a helmsman, a navigator and the ninth guy? Someone to pull on an oar to complete the tack.
I'm told this is a class of boat that is actively raced over there, but I haven't been able to find any information on that.
But to tack the yards come down, they're swung aft of the mast and then raised back up for the new tack.

[W Grabow]

I agree that the sprit sail, without a boom, may not set well in all situations. It is better on a boat with substantial beam to allow a wider sheeting base. It is simple, easy to set, and easy to douse.

[Woxbox]

Here's the boat mentioned above.We call it the King's Launch. She has five pair of oars, too. Each is about 11' long.
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f92/Woxbox/KNFlaunch.jpg

[wilsonj]

hmm without a boom, im a bit confused on this, is the first boat in this picture considered to have a sprint sail without a boom?

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jim/af3/index.htm

[Thorne]

I'll suggest one of the John Gardner books on building classic small craft sold by our kind hosts.

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/300022S.JPG
http://www.woodenboatstore.com/prodinfo.asp?number=300-022

Much easier to get your questions answered all at once in a book than try to learn piecemeal on this forum -- which is better used for the questions that the basic traditional boat books *can't answer*. Went through most of the same thing myself when I got into restoring a small wooden boat. Best thing about a sprit-spar is you get to say "Snotter" in public a lot...

;0 )

To try to answer your question, which itself will generate more questions, the sail you show is a leg of mutton design, not usually called a spritsail. Spritsails are more square / trapezoidal, not triangluar.

Here are two of my friends boats, the smaller boat "Tortuga" has white mainsail that is a spritsail with no boom, the larger cutter's tanbark mainsail is gaff-rigged, with a teensey squaresail and one foresail.

http://www.luckhardt.com/biglagoon2.jpg



Here is my dory rigged with a leg o' mutton sail and sprit spar design -

http://www.luckhardt.com/ls-sail1.jpg

An excellent small book on every possible sail design also at the WB Store -

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/images/300094S.JPG

[Todd Bradshaw]

Spritsail - boom optional (a temporary pole for downwind may be a better option)
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p340ad8f5a30421bee24dfa216bde88a5/f9f89976.jpg

Standing Lug - may or may not use a boom. Tack corner anchored to, or close to mast - luff angled up and forward.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p9f190d7d6dbf21c5722f319b8775c369/f9f89a53.jpg

Balanced Lug -Always has a boom. Luff more or less parallel to the mast and out in front of the mast.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p7baaf01517278c3dd3a8ffa188125819/f9f89a6d.jpg

Leg-O-Mutton - 3-sided, conventional boom, usually low-aspect without roach.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid99/p53435078fd4ab7bb1e888dfe2620a00f/f9f899b2.jpg

[Todd Bradshaw]

Sprit-boom Sail. Not to be confused with a spritsail. I honestly don't know whether Thorne can officially call his sprit-boom sail a Leg-O-Mutton or not, since it's rigged with a sprit-boom. Sprit boom sails are usually 3-sided, and the boom runs almost horizontally from partway up the luff, down and aft through the clew. Foot cut straight and sail is self-vanging (the configuration prevents the tail of the boom from being able to lift. This reduces sail twist). The sail on the boat on the Duckworks link is also a Sprit-boom sail.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid67/p18c73f625347524b545905038d7d31f6/fbd0d05d.jpg

You can also rig a sprit-boom on some other sail types (even spritsails - which would now have both a sprit sticking up and aft and a sprit-boom pointing down and aft)

The idea of a multi-purpose, 4-sided sail that could be hung up as either a sprit or lug is interesting, but most likely would have performance problems in both configurations as they are cut quite differently. Spritsails usually have luff round along the mast to create draft and the head edge is cut straight to prevent normal head sag from making upper sail draft too deep. Small Lugs rely greatly on luff tension and their luffs are often cut straight or even slightly hollowed. Their heads are cut with added round and broadseaming to create draft up high. So the cuts of the two types are almost exact opposites and chances of making a successful single sail that does both tasks well aren't good. You could maybe do it with cotton, cut flat, and get your shape mostly from fabric stretch, but a stretchy sail is usually not a formula for efficiency.

[Todd Bradshaw]

Basic dipping procedure for dipping lugsails. Whether or not the yard is actually lowered and re-hoisted or not during the tack seems to depend mostly on how big it is and how many hands are available.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid34/p7ae69572d54499daae7d29ff130a477d/fd307bc6.jpg

[Graham Knight]

After some experiment with different rigs I'm using a standing lug (boomless) on my Acorn and it's by far the best. I tried it with a boom and found it awkward, it's a small boat and the boom is a pain especially if you have a passenger. I tried a spritsail but found the long sprit awkward to stow. and performance didn't seem as good as the lug.
One useful addition to the standing lug is a whisker pole (I use a boathook) to maximize the spread of sail when running downwind, especially in light conditions.

[wilsonj]

hmm, the pics really help me understand all this, so if i had whats called a leg-o-mutton/sprint-boom rig a jib could be attached to frount as well?

[Thorne]

Yep - here's a pic of mine rigged that way -

http://www.luckhardt.com/biglagoon1.jpg

[Woxbox]

After using my sprit-rigged skiff for a couple of years with the single sprit, I added a second one to the clew. On a 73-square-foot sail it was easy to rig and improved the effectiveness of the sail dramatically. Because it was a sprit and not a boom, it was still above the heads of any passengers or crew.
By the way Todd, that was a cotton sail with a manilla boltrope that I could stretch this way and that, for better or for worse. Adjusting the location and tension of the snotters did give lots of latitude in adjusting the sail shape.
I also rigged a jib, which was set up as a balanced club short enough that it didn't foul on the butt-ends of the sprits. All in all a comfortable and easy to handle rig.
I'm not convinced that outside of racing sails need to be cut for maximum performance - I prefer hadiness and flexibility and durability over an extra 1/4 knot of speed. Most of us in wood boats are out their to be there, not get home again as quickly as possible, right?

[Todd Bradshaw]

I've been telling sailcloth manufacturers that modern cloth is too stiff and crunchy for most recreational sailors for 20 years. Most regular folk who sail for fun would give up the 1/2 knot and a few degrees of pointing ability for fabric that furls without a fight and which doesn't sound like a hunk of sheet metal flapping in the wind in a heartbeat. But nobody listens to me.