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Bob Perkins
04-18-2005, 12:44 PM
Hi Everyone,

I've been researching this particular topic for a while and have not found an answer.

Situation: Carvel planked hull with steam bent frames.

Question: How do replank AND reframe such a hull w/o drilling two sets of holes in the new frames?

I fully understand how to add new frames. I fully understand how to add new planks - but how do you do both at the same time?

Order of work:
1) Replace every other frame, then go back and replace the inbetween frames. (and floors)

2) Replace all the planks that need it (assume all of them for the discussion).

That means that I have to refasten the boat twice on a brand new set of frames..

Is there a way to do both at the same time? I have a few ideas but I'm wondering how it is actually done. Small boats that get full restorations do this all the time - Maybe it is a trade secret because I've never seen an article that describes both..

Your Thoughts?
Thanks,
Bob

[ 04-18-2005, 01:45 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

Charles Burgess
04-18-2005, 01:48 PM
There are several approaches to the task, but which one to take depends on the type, size, and construction of the boat.

If the frames are large enough, I perfer to use small oak treenails (oak dowels) to temporarily fasten the old planks to the first step of replacing the frames in the alternating fashion you described. Then after all new frames are in place, then I begin replacing the planks.

By using treenails of the same type of wood as the frames, the workload is easier.

If the frame is thick enough, I don't have to bore through the frame all the way, and I use an oversized wooden wedge in each treenail to hold them in place...removing the treenails are a simple as pulling the wedge and then pulling the treenail. If I bore completely through the frame then I need to wedge both ends of the treenail.

Sometimes I want to leave the treenail in: so I just pull the temporary treenail, dab some expoxy in the hole and reinsert the treenail and trim flush, or use a new treenail that has a tighter fit and wedge both ends (using no glue or epoxy). In doing so I can preserve the integrity of the frame so that redrilling for metal fasteners isn't an issue.

If the inside of the hull and frames are not painted but left brite, then the treenails will show and increase the pleasure of seeing the fine workmanship when you (or a client) use the boat.

If you haven't used treenailing much, then I suggest practicing on an 8 ft piece of oak that is roughly the size of your frames, and cut some plank material and treenail them on the practice frame...after 8ft of practice you will be ready for the real thing.

Edited to add: this method allows you to bore only the holes needed for the final fastening of the new planks. Bore once for the temporary treenails to hold the old planks in place while you replace the old frames with new. When fitting a new plank, drill the hole in the new plank by drilling through the original hole in the frame...from inside face of the frame. Then insert the permanent treenail...all done with just one hole for both the temporary and the finishing treenail.

[ 04-18-2005, 02:58 PM: Message edited by: Charles Burgess ]

bainbridgeisland
04-18-2005, 02:31 PM
I learned to do this as an Apprentice: Just remove a couple of planks at strategic areas. Then drop the hot frames inside the planking and clamp it in place through the holes from the removed planks. When all the new frames are in, remove the bottom two planks and start planking from the garboard. Keep a couple of open plank spots ahead of yourself.

We replaced the entire side of a 40' troller that had been run down using this method. It took two of us about 2-days to get out the frames and install them. We spent another week installing planks.

We did a similar job on a Stephens but only replaced the front 1/3 of one side.

If you choose the right planks to remove, the new frames will snug up against the old planks. Sometimes we had to remove butt blocks that were in the way as we worked. Otherwise, this was a pretty easy job.

bainbridgeisland
04-18-2005, 02:35 PM
BTW, we removed the covering board for this task. This allowed the new frames to slide down inside the planking.

Bob Perkins
04-18-2005, 02:56 PM
Thanks for the info..

Charles - Thanks smile.gif - I'll read up on that method.

Bainbridgeisland - If I understand your method.. I would have ~3 clamps per frame installed. (Figure I' m working on a H 12 1/2 with lots of frames).

So I'd need lots and lots of clamps to do the entire boat - if it could support the weight.. Do I have it right? (btw: I'm never opposed to buying more clamps)

I had an idea as follows:

At WB School - we used concrete wire rebar ties to hold steamed frames in place on a mold before planking.

If I had an inner batten over the steamed frame (for protection) and an outer batten mirroring the frame outside the planks. I could wire tie the inside to the outside to hold the frame to the plank w/o screws. Then start replacing planks once all the frames are in place.

I tend to over think the problem - am I at it again?

Thanks,
Bob

[ 04-18-2005, 03:57 PM: Message edited by: Bob Perkins ]

Torna
04-18-2005, 03:36 PM
Fastening with rivets instead of screws solves your problem and you won't need to refasten again for a very long time.
-leif

sdowney717
04-18-2005, 04:09 PM
On treenails, is there a size limit you cant go under?
How big of a frame do you need and what plank thickness? I have read other posts on trunnels and they suggested rather large treenails like starting around 3/4 inch in width?
I always liked the look of wedged treenails, but on the few examples I have seen, it was always using large sawn frames and thick planks.

bainbridgeisland
04-18-2005, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Bob Perkins:
Thanks for the info..
Bainbridgeisland - If I understand your method.. I would have ~3 clamps per frame installed. (Figure I' m working on a H 12 1/2 with lots of frames).

So I'd need lots and lots of clamps to do the entire boat - if it could support the weight.. Do I have it right? (btw: I'm never opposed to buying more clamps)

I had an idea as follows:

At WB School - we used concrete wire rebar ties to hold steamed frames in place on a mold before planking.

If I had an inner batten over the steamed frame (for protection) and an outer batten mirroring the frame outside the planks. I could wire tie the inside to the outside to hold the frame to the plank w/o screws. Then start replacing planks once all the frames are in place.

I tend to over think the problem - am I at it again?

Thanks,
BobThe frames pretty much stay in place after they cool. We left one clamp per frame, at the top. I am not sure you would need it though. Even a single screw at the top would hold them.

TimothyB
04-19-2005, 04:05 PM
Replank and reframe?

...well, the method I've seen a few pro type guys use is to erect a set of exterior frames, wrapped around the outside of the boat, and offset from the actual frame positions. Then you can remove the old frames one by one, use them as patterns, and install new ones one by one.

Then, you loosen the planks one by one, remove them, use them as patterns, and replace them one by one.

The new planks are not fastened to the external frames, but to the actual new frames. It makes sense to me that you would be doing alternate planks. however I haven't actually -done- this procedure.

Im sure Im missing a few steps in there, but you can see what I mean. I've seen a few boats in rebuild being done like this.

You should ask around some boatyards for this kind of method. There is (was) an advertiser in WB that had a pic of an old boat framed up on the outside like this as well, perhaps he could help you (I dont recall the fellow's name)

Cullen T.M. McGough
04-19-2005, 09:05 PM
Hi Bob,

check out this page: http://themickyfinn.blogspot.com/2004_12_01_themickyfinn_archive.html

I'm an apprentice at a boat shop up here in Maine, and the Boss is kind enough to let me dub around out back in my spare time. I've been rebuilding a 1930's wooden sloop (The Micky Finn) and I have taken her through the reframe and replank stage. Most of the commentary is tounge-in-cheek but the pictures may help.

Good luck!

-Cullen