Joel White's 23' Double Ended Sloop

[ericvsailing]

I am planning on building Joel Whites Double Ended Sloop and have a question regarding the planking material. He calls out "Cedar", I happen to have some Port Orford Cedar and was wondering if it may be too heavy.
I know there have been some builders that have used Western Red Cedar.

[JimConlin]

I expect that one of the light cedars(Atlantic white, northern white or western red) was used and intended, but i'd ask someone at the Brooklin Boat Yard to be sure. They might have other thoughts about scantlings today. It's clear that the designer was trying to keep it light, Witness the foam cored seats.
I'd also talk with Edey & Duff in Matapoisett, MA about using components (rig, rudder, ballast casting, centerboard trunk) of their Sakonnet 23, a fiberglass version of the design.
Our own RBGARR has friend who's built the transom sterned version. Perhaps he has a comment.

[ericvsailing]

Thanks for the rply.

[Dave Gray]

Isn't this a purely cold molded boat? In which case it may not matter if it is WRC or Port Orford cedar. But please build it and post copious pictures about the process.... :)

[JimConlin]

Isn't this a purely cold molded boat? In which case it may not matter if it is WRC or Port Orford cedar. <SNIP>.... :)

It could mean 75 lbs. in the weight of the boat. At 12% m.c., p.o. cedar is about 1/3 heavier than the the cedars I mentioned.
In some boats, weight is important.

[ericvsailing]

Wow 75 lbs is is a nice chunk of weight that I could use for picnic supplies. I guess this would affect the waterline as well...
The only reason I am using POC is because I have about 300 bdft of it and it would sure be nice to use it. Otherwise I may have to spend more $ on something lighter. Any one else have a take on this?

[prestonbriggs]

Well, you _could_ sell your stash of POC to someone who;d give it a good home (that would be me).

Preston

[ericvsailing]

Maybe I'll use it for the deck instead.

Also, is 75 lbs significant weight increase for this design?

[Canoeyawl]

It doesn't get any better than Port Orford Cedar...better to use a lighter wood for the deck

[Spissgatter W-9]

I saw a boat with a P O cedar deck a couple years ago at the seattle wooden boat show. Owner loved it because it would stay cool... nice on bare feet. Very pretty too.

[ericvsailing]

It doesn't get any better than Port Orford Cedar...better to use a lighter wood for the deck

Does this mean you would use Port Orford as planking?

[Theodora]

George,
Your mentioning a friend who has used P.O.cedar as decking because it's cool underfoot. Would you ask him how it's standing up to wear and tear compared to teak?
My reason for asking is that I am specifying MarineDeck2000 (agglomerated cork) over marine ply in place of teak decking precisely because the oils in the teak do make it too hot for the bare foot in the tropics. I'd really rather use real wood. Maybe someone else knows of a suitable replacement for teak.

[JimConlin]

Does this mean you would use Port Orford as planking?
It's a very fine material, as are white oak and lignum vitae, just not for this boat. When the designer specifies that the seats be of carved divinycell with a light glass skin, he's wanting the boat to be very light. As he's drawn it, almost any change from his scantlings will make the boat heavier.
If you can't hit those notes, don't play that tune.

[prestonbriggs]

is 75 lbs significant weight increase for this design?

Well, the boats weighs 2000 pounds, so it's about 3.75% which sounds small. Perhaps a better way to think about it is to compare it to the weight of your crew (or picnic supplies). Seems like small potatoes to me. I'd certainly use the wood. Wonderful stuff.

Preston

[rbgarr]

I hear (and it's just a rumor, mind you) that some boats built to this design have tended to float a bit low on their designed lines, but you never know how strictly folks build to the construction plans. Something to keep in mind maybe.

[Canoeyawl]

If Port Orford cedar were available I would use it for planking (although I would be more fussy about grain orientation than the species). As far as the increase in weight, 75 lbs can easily be the difference in a single crewmembers weight. I would not worry much about that.
Wood has variable weights even in the same species; I have seen Douglas fir that was as heavy as oak and I have seen it almost as light as spruce. I have gone through stacks (railroad flat cars!) looking for lighter stock to use for spars and found surprising differences in weight. You could/should weigh a piece of the actual proposed material to learn exactly how different from spec it is.

[ericvsailing]

Thanks for all the advise. I will go ahead and use my PO Cedar for planking.

[gert]

Is this Joel White's Lalla your talkin about?

[ericvsailing]

Is this Joel White's Lalla your talkin about?

Yes it is. I have been struggling with either building the Flatfish or the 23' Centerboard Sloop and decided to go with the later because I wanted something a little easier to trailer and the cold molded design seems to be more stable for trailering. Know of anyone that has built one?

[ericvsailing]

Well, I received my plotted loftings the other day and have proceded with the molds and bulkheads. I have decided to buy some Western Red Cedar in an effort to keep her as light as possible and will use my POC for the deck and as veneer for seats etc... Will keep all posted with pics once the hulls starts taking form.

[JimConlin]

Do talk with the people at Edey&Duff (http://www.edeyandduff.com/)about buying Sakonnet 23 components from them, particularly the centerboard trunk, ballast keel and rudder. It will save lots of work.
I'd also talk with Joe Norton at Norton Boat Works (414) 294-6813 .
He built Lala to the round-stern design. Ask him about the planking of the stern. It was reported to be trying.

[pcford]

It doesn't get any better than Port Orford Cedar...better to use a lighter wood for the deck

In my humble opinion.
Port Orford is a nice wood. I think it's a bit over-rated maybe because it is next to impossible to obtain.
Did a '29 Stephens....lots of rotten Port Orford on it.

It is a nice wood. It's a pleasure to work with nice smelling stock.

[merlinron]

not being any sort of athority on the subject, but having a good amount of experience building things of wood and a half way decent understanding of boat design, i would think that 75 lbs. wouldn't even be an amount to be concerned with on a boat this size. no two people could build the same boat and arive any closer to the designed overall weight. not actually seeing the stats, i would think it's ppi. would be around 500-600 lbs, of which 75lbs would mean roughly 3/16" increase in waterline depth or........ nothing

[JimConlin]

... no two people could build the same boat and arive any closer to the designed overall weight.

If I recall correctly, White Wings and Wild Horses, two sistership 76' boats were built by different builders and were within 100 lbs. It can be done, and if the designer wanted the boat to weigh x lbs and the builder's not capable of carrying that out, then the builder's not to blame if the boat's a slug.

These W-76 and the 23' boat were among Joel's last and best designs and should be executed with respect for the artist.
As i said above, if you can't hit the notes, don't play the tune.

[merlinron]

when were these two boats built and by whom? what method was used to weigh them being 76 ft long? if thye weren't actually phyicaly weighed as completed, but were "weighed as a process of building in which each piece is weighed as the boats are built ,there is way too much room for innacuracy. if the builders were well established professionals and used to contract building i might be able to accept that satement, but we here are mere ameture builders besides,an additional 75 lbs on a boat this size will not make it a slug.....let's be realistic.

[JimConlin]

The two boats were built ca. 1998 by the Brooklin Boat Yard and by Rockport Marine. I was told that finished weights were within 100 lbs., but don't know the method used to measure that.
Regardless of the building method, weighing the pieces and pots of materials that go into the boat isn't a good way to measure the weight of the boat. A lot of materials leave the boat as scrap, fumes or dust. The folks working in pre-preg might be able to come close, as heir scrap fraction is much lower. I think that Goetz does this on the AVC boats.

The reason i make a stink about giving up a 4% weight overrun at the very first step of the project is that i fear that other such changes will surely follow. The substitution of ipe for the designed seat material would add another 60 lbs., teak clad decks another 50, and so forth. These changes would be truly inconsequential in a hanseatic cog, but a 15% weight overrun in a boat that's designed, by a very meticulous designer to be light is an unforgivable breach of trust, in my view.

[Buddy Sharpton]

I appreciate the thoughts about respect to the designer's art and intentions to serve the performance aspects of the boat.

Joel White also designed "my" 15 Marsh Cat, also for trailering for daysailing, but certainly more toward the relaxed end of the spectrum- piddling in creeks and harbors, gunkholing, camp crusing sort of stuff.

The plans don't give a "construction" weight only a to loaded waterline displacement of 1365 pounds I believe. Subtracting 350 pounds for two crew would make it a 1000 pound target.

Weighing mine on the trailer it's 1100 pounds.

I wanted to create several "furniture" and fixture comfort upgrades, all removable to protect that weight/ performance property. A hardtop, cuddy bulkheads and doors, collapsible frames and folding foam seats with back rests. A trolling motor, and two batteries in lieu of the 180 pounds of rocks in six "loose" sacks that are specified to be ballast.

Sadly Joel himself had died much too young when I started this project, so I could only consult with him through looking at how he designed such features in other more elaborate boats. I talked with his son Steve who actually built the first Marsh Cat about the ballast and he said as he remembered, they never even put it in, and it sailed fine.

My removable "comfort" kit ( not including the trolling motor and batteries which are 150 pounds vs 180 pound rock ballast they replace) weighs 264 pounds.

Interestingly, "full kit loaded", with a two horse Honda on the stern, she sits above her as designed waterline about 7/8" forward, 2 " aft. With two
crew aboard in their seats, she trims dead level, about an inch of bottom paint showing. Lucked out on that.

I used to pull all that stuff off for a lively daysail, but I really couldn't feel any difference, much less a "worth the bother" difference.

I've had as many as six people aboard for an afternoon sail, and again, she didn't seem sluggish or waddling in the least. just seat the load so the waterline is level.

The point is, this Joel White design like "traditional" catboats with that fishing boat heritage is made to accommodate a wide range of displacement from empty to loaded.

Seems to me the 23 was intended to be much more nearly a perfectly spirited but well mannered mount for a gentleman to take out solo, or for two, or two couples or a family of four to enjoy. Wide load range, hardly an on the edge of the envelope, thrill ride on plane ultimate performance flyer.

I wouldn't think a hundred pounds extra construction weight would upset the boat or Joel.

Just keep her in level trim.

I used to sometimes remove all this stuff to go for a

[merlinron]

hi jim,
well stated, and i agree in a theoretical viewpoint. unfortunately though, when an NA puts a plan out there to be bought up by anyone to build, he has to realize that people are going to use alternate materials and such, because of cost or other reasons. i really think he has to throw that aspect of "trust ", out the window and accept that his intended attention to some details and/or specifications are going to be betrayed. admitedly, it can get out of control easily if not paid the proper attention, but that same 4% weight can show up as a result of two boats being built in different climates just as easily.
i question the accuracy of the two boat's weight because i have worked my entire life around big heavy objects lifted and moved by cranes. all of them have peizo strain gauges and very seldomly do they record the same weight picking the same object twice, so even the method of physicly weighing the two boats as finished may not be all that reliable. i would imagine thier weights probably came from the rig that splashed them, and, on the other hand, if so, and the rig registered both within 100 lbs of each other, i'd say they might be pretty close to the same weight, but i would hesitate to accept the weights as real, without several picks and an average derived.